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Arrogant lil ..co workers

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by tangle_ellfly38

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Sorry to rant but I cannot stand these little arrogant "know it all" jerks anymore.I'm talking about the ones who took some html classes in high freakin' school and can log on and play World of Warcraft.It seems this somehow qualifies them as pc experts.They want to sit back and give the users little smug looks and smart remarks because they can use a right click menu and can spell Linux! It's good and bad how easy it is to learn a little Windows and then get a job imaging computers and doing a little help desk for close to minimum wage. Is pc operations/help desk the next McDonalds for teens?? Is it just me or are they becomming more and more common?? (Apologies to the younger crowd who really do know what they are doing and don't have an "I'm an IT god and you are a mere foolish mortal" complex!)

211 replies

by hal 9000

It's the same ones who will be first out the door at the end of work and refuse to work that extra 15 minutes to get the job done.

I saw this about 16 years ago and walked away then from Big Business as these kids used to drive me crazy. There where some really good ones but the majority thought that they [b]Knew it all[/b] when they actually knew [b]Bugger All[/b] and insisted on doing things their way and messing up things even more and then they would walk out and leave us to fix the mess that they had made. Then try to mess it up again when the came in to work the next day after we had spent hours getting it right.

But what I'm finding now is people completely Computer Illiterate who are now forced to use computers in their business and don't understand why those 80 GIG of music files that they have downloaded for their I Pod prevent the NB running correctly and stop De frag running because there is only 1% of free drive space left. :D

I honestly have one guy who has paid me for about 25 hours to show him how to work his I Pod. Talk about an expensive Play Toy!

But at least he knows no better and accepts advice but he's just as frustrating as many of those Young Know It Alls as he messes up the system just as often and doesn't know what he's done. :(

Col

by jdclyde

It is the END user that I have a beef with right now.

How many times has someone come up to you, asking for your advice on purchasing a new computer? You take the time to find out what they are going to use it for, so you can size the computer to the job. when everything is said and done, they end up going to "best buy" or some other department store and buy a cheap piece of crap because the "expert" there told them this was a great computer for what they are going to do.

Then a week later when the computer doesn't work, they have the NERVE to call you and ask you to see what is wrong.

"It is under warrenty, take it back for them to fix it."

I have no sympathy that they can't play their games because they got a cheap computer with on-board everything. You just bought an expensive word processor. Enjoy.

by hal 9000

A few weeks ago I was walking to the bank at the local shopping centre and was cornered by a pimply faced lad attempting to sell me a Dell something.

He just wouldn't accept [b]NO!!!![/b] so I eventually relented and gave a description of my new workstation as a [b]Base Build[/b] you know the type of thing a Dual Xeon with 8 + Gig of RAM and some really nifty things that I need as well as several SATA HDD's. He listened to my description and then held up a $1,200.00 NB and went on to extol the virtues of this machine. When I said I needed 2 CPU's he very kindly explained to me that this had a Duo CPU so it actually did have 2 CPU's I didn't have the heart to tell him that the Xenos where the same 2 CPU per chip and the massive 512 MEG of RAM was more than anyone would ever need.

When I put up something that he couldn't point out was better than my specs all he could say was [b]This Is Portable![/b] I eventually escaped and some time latter as I was going somewhere to do some work so I had my tools and NB on me I got hit by the same kid again. I didn't have the time to waste with this guy but from previous experience I knew that anything that I could say would not be enough so I just pulled out my NB which was built in December 04 and asked him what the new Dell could do that my current NB couldn't. It's a Clevo D400E fully loaded so there is nothing more that can be added and it has the biggest CPU that was available a the time though the Dual Cores have since been released. I turned it on allowed windows XP to start I had the XP HDD in it this time for a change and then used the Fingerprint reader to open Windows.

He then insisted that the Dell had WiFi so I flipped a switch and turned on the WiFi and then showed him how to toggle between the WiFi & Buletooth as they both work off the same switch. He then went on to tell me of the accessories that I could get like a Web Cam so I just pointed to the Camera in the Screen opened up the Camera Driver and had a half filled screen of what was going on in front of the camera as well as the voice as the Mic is built into the screen as well.

Anyway not to be outdone he just had to say well mines lighter than your's which it most certainly was but the NB of mine doesn't have batteries that tend to catch fire either and that was where most of the difference was besides my being a 17 inch screen and the one that he was trying to flog off having a 15 inch screen.

And he actually had to complain that the TFT Monitor in my NB is too bright. Seems that LCD Monitors are better because he says so. :D

But the killer came when 3 people asked him to sell them my NB as it just looked so good and had a much better program load than what the other NB's that they where offering. Needless to say he's left me alone since and you don't know just how thankful I am for that. He was like a Rabid Dog who latched on and wouldn't let go at any price until he had a sale. Of course me telling those people that sorry I can not sell you one of these as it's now a discontinued model the newer ones are better and support the latest hardware didn't go over to well. :^0

Col ]:)

by mr. hardware

This reminds me of someone I know; I told them NOT to install AOL this and Aol that. It's hard to remove, and you can do the same thing with other product.

What did they do?

Told them call AOL, and your firend since they been in the PC tech game (they were not), and hung up the phone

by scriptdummy

As the saying goes in my area "The only difference between a Compter Salesperson and a Used Car Salesperson is that the Used Car Salesperson knows he/she is lying."

by meanderradio

That reminds me of a story about this old furniture/carpet store-owner in our town (he's still working, in his 70s) who got someone good for doing what you described.

There was this woman that kept coming in the store and taking vast amounts of time looking at carpet color swatches and asking all kinds of questions. She would never buy anything, just came in to get information. Well the old guy was onto her, and one day she came in, and made a decision on which color of carpet she wanted. (Of course she had found a better deal somewhere else, and was just going 'local' to hone her selection)
She told him which one she would likely buy, and asked him to write down the product and color number for her. He gave it to her, all right.

The woman ended up with a housefull of purple carpet that she couldn't send back. True story.

by psifiscout

I have 10 years experience and two degrees in PC support and Networking. I took a job that is not quite in line with my training (as a graphic artist), I try to save the boss trouble calling on the tech support issues but rather than let me mess up his precious network, he allows delays to occur in order to have his "favorite" techie, do the work. This happens regularly even though I have proven time after time that I am capable of doing the tech support tasks. So the techie that operates in the arrogant mode is not the only problem here.

by maeseralf

Hi, friend!
In fact this happened to me years ago. I was managing a little consultancy firm about computer technology. We sell computer stuff also. Many people came asking for a computer for their children, pretending to select the whole thing by themselves. They always wanted the last computer from PC-World. Or they asked for assistance, we had to spent two or more hours looking for the best choice. Then they where to "Carrefour" to buy a Compaq, or an PackardBell, or a Tandom PC. A week after, they came begging a repair, or the printer cable, or for 5.25 floppies.
Many "skilled" people that knows nothing! Even I had to hear once: He knows a lot about computer science; He is a lawyer!
Well, we are whom we are!

by maeseralf

Sorry, I forgot to say in my reply that they wanted the repair done for free; the computer was under warranty! I'm speaking about the year 93 or 94.

by drinkmetoo

Change the name, and a few other things; it's me. Thanks, now I don't feel so old or alone.

by oz_media

I've said for years now that IT is no longer this grand career for the highly educated, social misfits.

Anyone with a pulse can be an MCSE or a network engineer. It's no a world where such people are rare, its common knowledge as 'regular people' become immersd more and more into the IT world each day.

There are still many IT pros who feel they are the all knowing God's that IT staf were once seen as, but now they are just someone else that can fix it.

Yes, an MCSE is no more than a grade 12 certificate these days, it isn't worth much at all, except for people who rely on gathering certs to find menial jobs, instead of progressively seekign a career (in which case, certs are usually not an issue at all).

Put up with it, get used to it. What made you an expert five, ten years ago, makes a kid average these days.

by darrylb

Those who cant afford an MCSE (they are an expensive piece of tripe in australia) and trying to further a career without one in an industry where too much focus is placed on the damned things.

Grrr

by oz_media

You need assertion and the ability to convince someone to hire you. Create a plan, target an employer, study the company, think long and ard about what you will do for them. Decide what they are going to give you in return and what value you can show the boss.

Don't use the newspaper (2% success rate) don't just look for ads and companies that are hiring.

Cold call the employer and get the owners name, manager of busines development, vice president, ANYONE other than HR!!!Don't leave Voice Mail or messages, speak directly or say you want to catch him/her personally and will call back. Is 2PM better?

Pitch yourself and your skills, ask for an interview. No interview, ask for LEADS !!!!! Nobody does this and it works like a hot damn. I've had prospects (potential employers) who actually call and set up meetings for me (a good foot in the door for sure).

It is so easy once you just get comnfortable approaching employers like prospects and selling yourself like a product with great benefits his company needs.

Finding work IS work, not just patience. Go to it, seek it out and create it yourself. The best part is you will be able to name your price this way, instead of filling a void.

by hal 9000

And while you are in Townsville where they have some strange thinking if you avoid the Government and Big Business Jobs there are plenty of jobs in the IT Field available. But you do need to avoid HR. When I used to work Big Business I would allow HR to do the initial screenings and then grab all the rejected applications and find my staff from there. The staff where always great and worked well though the person at HR got their nose out of joint more than once with me. :D

What I didn't like about Townsville was the mentality there it went like this [b]We Don't want you Southerners coming up here telling us what to do no matter just how little it is we know we are going to ignore you at every opportunity.[/b] We had one faulty part that was replaced UG on every machine that we serviced and then to be told that I didn't know what I was talking about by the Distributer in Townsville was more than slightly galling particularly after I went around with him and pointed out 25 of these things that needed replacing in the first hour which he had never bothered to look at.

But OZ is correct pick a business that you want to work at and then work at getting a job there the better that you sell yourself the more secure the job will be. But just try to avoid places run by accountants as they are always out for the cheapest available person and to hell with the results we are saving a few $ per hour so we are getting better value for money.

The people who are impressed by the Certs & letters after your name are not the ones worth impressing in the first place you need to avoid any HR departments and approach the Manager/Director whatever and make them think that you are worth the time & effort to get you to work for them.

Col

by media-ted9

That bit about, "What made you an expert five, ten years ago, makes a kid average these days." isn't really useful, ... and I'll be happy to tell you why:
We who fought our way through command lines and interpreter programming found that we could make things work and work well. We established that there was a Standard, and Quality could be achieved and maintained; but then came M$, ... and DO$ 6 and we discovered that OS'es can spell doom for the best written lines of code - no matter what.

We have come to scorn and reject that, but youngsters have been spoon-fed to accept it and "live with it", and the decline of uninterrupted production in computers is nearly extinct.

Things like WGA and false positives are totally unacceptable to us, but M$ is counting on the younger set to accept and live with it until the entire commercial world could topple and nobody will notice, care, or think anything should be done about it - - - it's job security, so it's good. I can't run the demo-system, but I can repeat the lines I was taught, and since I'm totally ignorant, I can make up stuff and not feel guilty.

I quit a business in Florida, MY OWN, when I had the misfortune of taking on a salesman, ... and he made promises nobody could have fulfilled. I spent a year just trying to program my way out of the mess he created. He had his commission, and I was left with the work.

Youngsters have only started with Icons, but we old geekzers know so much more that could help them achieve real success for their customers, ... and still put something in their wallets.

If today's kids don't know what we do, they are not a useful "average". Sorry.

by darrylb

I work for a big IT company as a field consultant.

In the course of my travels i encounter these twits on help desks all the time.

You are not alone in your rantings... hehehe

by woodys_world69

Its the same scenario. I work in an Internet Helpdesk, and get calls from customers stating there DSL not working and they have a tech there. PC tech gets on the phone and says "mate its a problem on the line or at the exchange, its nothing here". And then to be sure before investigating the phone line, you have to asks questions about PC and phone configurations in the house, and they just say "yep yep, dont need to check all them are fine. And after that finish yelling that its a line fault, they ask, "whats this double adapter thing that came with the modem". The grin on my face widens as i realise hes talking about an ADSL filter.......and yes i think you guys get the drift. Ego's are not age specific at all.

P.S anybody that plays WoW are missing a few cans short of a six pack.

by hal 9000

But in my case I was the one insisting that the Filter was in the wrong socket and that the line was dead, which it was.

Apparently some one had just plugged in the DSL modem to a direct line and them held the filter in their hot little hand and thought [b]What Do I do With This?[/b] then plugged it into a unused phone socket. Of course when I got called in everything except the filter had been disconnected and I had no idea of how the place had been setup originally. I kept saying that I couldn't get any form of signal on that line and I was told that I shouldn't be able to.

When they sent out a tech who then played around for about 2 hours to discover that it was in the wrong socket [i]which I had been saying all along[/i] and then their tech grabbed me and asked me to use my P Touch and label the correct socket. :D

Then he threw the filter in the rubbish as it was a dedicated DSL line they didn't need voice communication on it.

Col

by mjd420nova

The HR departments know so little about what IT people really do, they think anyone can do the job. I have seen some help desk people that are so young and the manager is the youngest. They have no idea of what it means to take down a users description of a fault and then be sure that it gets communicated to the field people. Minimum wage is what they get and they have egos and attitude that you'd expect to find in a ten year hands on veteran. They talk the talk, but have no idea how to put one foot in front of the other. I've attempted to train such individuals, but I now refuse to train anyone unless they have an electronics background, I don't care how many certs they have. Papers are for the dogs bog, and don't mean squat in the field.

by snipermike87

I have to say being the little coworker, that it is what we do in order to try to get some respect in the work place. Over the summer I worked at the local school department's IT department, im a sophomore in high school, so i guess i'm not that little, but u have to be that "know it all" or the "more experienced" will shaft you and give you the grunt work jobs. but i completely understand where you are coming from because i also work at my college's computer store and there the freshman come in acting like that and BOY do i wanna slap them around. When i do it i try not to be arrogant, but these little noobs, they dont hold back. they talk themselves into a hole and try to get out of it. its really quite fun to laugh about it later. wow ive been ranting awhile too. ah whatever. have a good one

by jdclyde

People appreciate someone that can and will get the job done, and get it done the right way.

NO ONE likes a big mouthed punk (regardless of age). It is an instant turn-off (think I even saw that in a playboy centerfold list of turnoffs, "mouthy geeks" :D )

Do you know the best way to win people over? Just do your job. You CAN present your ideas without them being an attack. And remember always, when you are the new blood, it is YOU that has to win over everyone, not the other way around.

Don't take crap, but present your ideas, and let whoever is in charge make the decisions. You get paid the same to do it wrong at his direction as you do to do it correctly. After it doesn't work, chances are your solution will get a chance.

by katokato

I agree, when you are new you have to work hard to win over everyone. But what do you do when a 'know it all' has very limited knowledge of what the project at hand demands (i was hired a tech lead)but wants things done his way. What do you do when all the team members are 'know it all' and refuse to listen to you ideas. I quit this job after 4 weeks, i felt instead of working productively towards my deadline, i am being forced to listen to their limited knowledge ideas and being told that my 'idea is half as***'. Not only that one of the team members evern insulted me twice by mocking at my solution. I quit after he insulted me 2nd time. I figured this pattern will not end, and i will end up with a failed project.

I tried my best to listen to their ideas, incorporte them in my solution but they were exact opposite of what my boss had asked me to do. I think they all were tyring to make me quit and so i did, but i still wonder what could i have done different? How could i handle it better next time, because there are a lot of 'know it all' out there.

by footlessrabbit

There in is the problem. Certs got the decision marker the position.

When they do make a decision it ussually costs me over time fixing/repairing/re-thinking something else.

My favorite qoute...
"The difference between a theorist and a physicist is that theorist don't make mistakes. They also don't do the work."

We talk about noobs coming in with arrogance but there exists a problem in the upper levels, too. Trying to convience someone, that believes they 'know it all', that installing MSDE over the top of MS SQL Std is not a good idea was so difficult that they did it without tell me. And then proceded to fire off an email about the SQL instance failures were my fault. Screen shots are a wonderfull thing.

I can deal with arrogant noobs. It's having to work weekends becuase something is now a hot button that was proposed 3 years ago but ignored or tossed off as rubish.

Is this turning into a rant blog?

Well, I feel better, anyway.

by mjwx

First let me get clich?'s out of the way "respect is earned and not given". Don't expect to be respected first day on the job, that will make you look arrogant. In an IT organisation you will quickly learn who is worth respecting and who is not regardless of what certificates they hold. Endear yourself to those who have earned the respect of their colleagues and you'll learn a lot from them and once you've learnt a bit you'll get respect.

Next I'm a bit older than you (10 years) but I'm a lot younger than JD and many of the others so I can understand where you're coming from. This being said, listen to the others (JD, Hal, Deadly and the rest) they know what their doing and have years of useful experience to boot (except when politics are involved, then none of us know anything)

Next I'll say that no matter what career path you choose you will always, always, always get the sh!t jobs when you start out, do the work, don't ever complain and you wont be doing those jobs for long. Chiefs begin their careers by washing dishes.

If you have useful ideas contribute them but don't argue because you believe their choice is wrong, 1. Its their choice 2. They have spent a lot longer thinking about it than you have. If you want to be taken seriously, ask for some extra duties, possibly outside your job description. You can bet your bottom dollar that your boss has too many management duties some of which can be handed off to you , maybe there's a report you could write for him/her and there's always documentation that needs doing (I should be doing the new power plan instead of posting on TR, see what I sacrifice for you people :D ).

Well that's about all the career advice I can give for today, point in short: if you do a good job (and don't complain) you will get respect.

PS, don't call people noobs. No one will respect you for name-calling, especially if they are n00bs.

Edit: Emoticons

by media-ted9

Unfortunately, the turn-over rate at kaka,LLc is greater, meaning your chances of being hired there, and several others, is mighty high - unless your uncle owns the good (kalos) company.

If you want a position in a good (kalos) company, you're gonna need to "pay your dues" for a while, ... that means you gotta eat, so work at kaka #1, 2, ... and keep finding the best place for your skills and interests, then stop by and call - - - often until the hiring guy realizes it's easier for him to hire you and pass you on to someone else than continue dealing with you himself. (This worked for my wife with Honeywell/Bull and it was the only job she ever really enjoyed, but it took a few years to wear HR down. Later she was hand picked for a team working on the final project before H/B closed out their mainframe R&D.)

Me? I have knocked around and found very little that was solid gold, so I now work for a kaka firm, but have four months a year to myself with compensation. It works for me more than I work for it. ... But ... I'm almost 60, so factor that in.

by jmgarvin

You need to make sure you know how to do things and do them well.

As for those freshmen, you look like that to us. When you come in with the know it all attitude, I'm going to own your world. I'll give you the hardest job I can possibly think of.

Why?
A) To take you down a peg
B) To let you know that you don't know
C) Give you the experience of REAL IT

I think the biggest problem with those that are coming through high school now is that you guys see computers like a toaster...That's a BAD route...

by drinkmetoo

Grunt work is where learn. I hope you take it that way. It can also be a test of your knowledge and character. Make the cables, run the cables, put that system together, do it ALL with a smile. Years (I do mean years) from now you?ll get a problem, that what you learn now will solve, when no one else can. That will be your reward for everything you put up with now. Be the hero later, there is still time (oh, to be young and innocent again).

by mwells

I am an IT Director and I do belive that help desk is becoming "the new McDonalds". Tech schools are churning out low-end techs by the thousands now, driving the wages of helpdesk and field team psotions through the floor. I used to see consultatns being paid 60K to be field team members for a large copmany I used to work for. Now, I see people happy to take the same job for $12.50 /hr. This increases the churn rate and burn-out rate of low to mid level IT staff.

by jcelko212

You might want to look up this article:
ww.apa.org/journals/psp/psp7761121.html

Journal of Personality and Social Psychology
? 1999 by the American Psychological Association

Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments
by
Justin Kruger and David Dunning
Department of Psychology
Cornell University

Abstract:

People tend to hold overly favorable views of their abilities in many social and intellectual domains. The authors suggest that this overestimation occurs, in part, because people who are unskilled in these domains suffer a dual burden: Not only do these people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it. Across 4 studies, the authors found that participants scoring in the bottom quartile on tests of humor, grammar, and logic grossly overestimated their test performance and ability. Although their test scores put them in the 12th percentile, they estimated themselves to be in the 62nd. Several analyses linked this miscalibration to deficits in metacognitive skill, or the capacity to distinguish accuracy from error. Paradoxically, improving the skills of participants, and thus increasing their metacognitive competence, helped them recognize the limitations of their abilities.

by flotsam70

Wow...that is very interesting. I've always held that the more I learn, the more I'm aware of how much I don't know! :-)

by john lockie

That is very fascinating, thanks for sharing that.

I think humility is the key role in whatever we do. You have to be confident to work in most IT environments, but you also need to recognize your place and the limitations of your expertise.

I think the older people here are setting the trend. You blame the young newb for being arrogant, but look at what they are up against. A lot of older guys expect to be worshiped. How do you expect a teenager or someone in their 20's to react to that? Harshly, at best.

Strong humble leaders will build a solid IT staff of people who feel they can trust their management but also have the reigns to hit the ball out of the park when they are up to bat. It's a balance.

But great article you linked to!

by erik hanson

Didn't George Bush give a speech about this, where he tried to explain the difference between "known unknowns" (where a person knows they lack knowledge in an area)and "unknown unknowns" (things that a person doesn't realize they don't know)?

Or perhaps that's too much credit.

by wireless

The self-assessment article was bang-on. Having originally a Psych degree, then moving to I.T. and Training, the article (and the Bush reference someone else mentioned) reminded me of a 4 level learning scale, describing the various stages through which we learn:

LEVELS OF LEARNING

1/ Unconsciously Incompetent: 'Ignorance on Fire' : I don't know what I don't know
(most people start here when placed into new environment)

2/ Consciously Incompetent: eg. - Learning to Drive - 'I know what I don't know'
(after understanding all the facets of the problem)

3/ Consciously Competent: 'I know what I know'
(after understanding much of the problem and starting to work on solutions)

4/ Unconsciously Competent: 'I don't know what I know'
(the confident sales person/manager/senior executive - doesn't know or care why he/she is successful type, but just does it)

http://www.interbeach.com/TTT/

by sentdata

How about the open source expert that is learning open source on your time but claming to know it all! And getting top dollar to do it. But they can get away with it because it?s so new no one can dispute what they say till the crap they put out does not work!

by johnny bee

You remember the brown-noser, nerd, brainer, or whatever from high school. The same applies to the new generation of IT Geeks. Only a handful of them will realize that their arrogance is actually holding them back and make a genuine effort to learn something, either about themselves or about how to provide service to others. The majority of them will fade from view or into mediocrity and not advance very far simply because they do not know what they think they know. We machine-loving IT folks need to remember that our customers are the human users, not the computers they use. You can treat a machine as if it is stupid, and it won't even blink at you. Treat a human in the same manner, you'll quickly find yourself looking for new employment.

by nicknielsen

[i]The majority of them will fade from view or into mediocrity and not advance very far simply because they do not know what they think they know.[/i]

Very true. The best part is, this mediocrity is usually as a salesperson at Best Buy or Circuit City; around here, their customers usually only go back once for tech support before looking for a real technician. Gotta love job security.

by erik hanson

"Accept certain inalienable truths:
prices will rise,
politicians will philander,
you too will get old,
and when you do you?ll fantasize
that when you were young
prices were reasonable,
politicians were noble
and children respected their elders."

by derick.boe

First those were Sony's problematic batteries, not Dell's. Apple and another company had to recall theirs.
And two; there were only 1 or 2 that actually caught fire, this was just media sensationalism at it's worse.
I'm glad you like your laptop, but there is nothing wrong with the Dell 9400's. I have one and it is by far the best laptop I've ever owned.

And are you sure you have the D400E, as I looked at the specs sheet, and this popped up;
Display
. 14.1" XGA TFT/15.0"XGA/
15.0" SXGA+ TFT
You sure yours is 17 inch??
Sure it's not the best of the best, but it's not crap as many people seem to believe.
I've lived with the knowledge over the past year and a half, that while I was at the college, there was only one person who had a laptop that could outperform this one; a 4000$ Alienware lappy.
I got this 9400 fully loaded for only 1700$. God I love Dell coupon codes.

Enjoy your laptop and that guy that stopped you doesn't know how to sell stuff.

by hal 9000

And you're right only a couple did burst into flames but the ones that did where impressive and maybe I'm slightly put off by the fact that that brand new 42 inch Plasma did exactly the same thing thankfully while I was watching it so I could pull the power and hit it with a Foam Fire Extinguisher before it burnt the house down.

The end result was that they refused to Honor the warranty because it has been put out with a Foam Fire Extinguisher and not allowed to burn the house down so the problem could not be found. Boy am I glad that I don't leave these things on Standby as I just don't trust them all that much.

As for the Clevo yes it's 17 inch and the correct designation is D400-E where e stands for extra or something similar it's the bigger model than the standard 14 or 15 inch monitor depending on if it was a LCD or TFT. I believe that they have altered the model number for AU for this line and while I could have bought a Centrino system when I built this one I needed the number crunching power that was available on the 3.4 P4 as the then Centrino was much slower. I'm not concerned with Battery life as this is a tool for my work. It came with all the options as standard here as that was how the bare chassis was marketed and all I had to do was pick a CPU some RAM and a HDD to assemble it.

The 15 inch TFT ones where called D400's here not sure why the different designation for what was effectively the same model maybe it was just the Country Importer wishing to offer a better option than anything else that was available at the time in an off the shelf system. It always made it hard as I had to go through the Country Distributer for the correct specs for the machines sold here as they where different to the Clevo Site.

OH BTW the kid was attempting to sell me a Basic 6400 Insperon not the bigger brother it was totally unsuitable for my needs but it's what they had stock of I suppose. The fact that it had Media Centre when I had told him that I absolutely required the Pro version didn't help either.

Col

by <brian lenon>

I have had the opportunity over the past two years to hire Student Interns form local Tech schools. Some have been programming students others have been Networking specialists. Over all I have to say it has been a positive experience. There seem top be only two kinds of students the ones who will be very soon on the sales floor at the local Best Buy extolling the virtues of how cool they are and how you don?t know Jack or the ones I have been fortunate enough to hire who have gone on to real computer/IT related jobs. I have to confess we don?t pay much to the interns but that is the way it is, we are a business and have to control costs. We do not hire them on as full time upon graduation they are encouraged to get a real job as we do not have enough extra work to fill a full time position and I want other students to have the chance to get some real world experience in the IT field.

by jmgarvin

I have a bear of a time finding interships for my students. I wish more businesses would offer a low paying (no paying) internship. Most of my students would hop on board in a second...

On the bright side, most of my students are pretty luck in that they are in the industry already.

by mjwx

as they generally don't have a large IT dept. I got a few months (1 or 2 days a week) experience at a high school here in Perth whilst studying before getting my current job. It was weird coming from the school which used NT 4 to a small enterprise using 2003.

by david_palmer

I'd agree with you that a number of people who work at a help desk view the job as little more than a McDonalds-type entry level job for a larger organization. Any arrogance you get from someone like this needs to be brought to the attention of the manager of the help desk, because that kind of attitude shouldn't be tolerated. I've been working as a help desk analyst for (mucn longer than I'd like to admit) several years, and the technical knowledge that the callers have runs the gammut. But regardless of the caller's technical knowledge, they are the reason that I have a job, and should never be treated disrespectfully.

To be a good help desk analyst, you need to be part technician, part teacher, and part counselor. People tend to be honestly greatful when they know that they have been helped with a problem. It doesn't matter how "small" the help desk person thinks the problem was. The mark of a really good help desk analyst is someone who can tell a customer that the problem they were experiencing was completely their fault, without making them feel like they have just been insulted.

by ibanezoo

... but in my experience they either learn quickly how much they don't know or they don't remain employed very long. Either way its not so bad. Usually after their first major screw up that costs the company money or pisses of a really big and intimidating employee they change their tune. They learn home computers/network != corporate computers/network.

If nothing else, they are good for a laugh.

by manitobamike

I have found the quickest way to shutdown these sales "experts" is to inform them that I need to have at least 2 serial ports to connect up with our PLC devices. Most of the ones I have encountered just end up with a bewildered look on their faces, especially when you tell them it has to be configured as a DTE and have the full acync RS232 signals available.
A few have in the past expressed an interest in learning and asked what a PLC or DTE is but most try to skip over and tell you that it can be added later.

by jcitizen

I used similar tactics for kids who try to sell me Apples or Linux boxes; they JUST DON"T work in the production technology field.

At least for anything I've done - and I have tried. Virtualization just slows everything down.

by jtnieves

I'm sorry, JCitizen.. when I read your post I had to do a double-take. You need to explain yourself because you made a blanket statement about two OSes that are in use by thousands of IT operations the world over. What would be your alternative -- some flavor of Unix? I could see that. But if it's Windows, I'd say you need to get out of your cubicle more often because the stale office air is not helping you think straight.

by hlhowell9

Microsoft just executed an agreement with Novell. Check it out on Groklaw. Also I have been around a bit, and I personally work on about 9 operating systems for production environments. None of them is Microsoft. I do use Microsoft, but just for email and web browsing because it is a filthy environment for scientific calculation or development that requires 3 to 6 times the development effort. Just my opinion and experience, you understand. How many OS's have you used?

by media-ted9

I think if I was accosted by one of those digi-narcs armed with toys and not brains, I'd be more apt to call the law on him, but in the past when I have fallen victim to pushy all-sales-no-understanding script-clones (including insurance and used-car types), I just show such wild-eyed enthusiasm and try to get them to tell me of all the extras I can get, and have them start the paperwork. I don't want to spend much time ON the paperwork, just enough for them to have something they must turn in or explain why the number sequence is out of order - - - if they're really obnoxious, I may change my mind and put the add-ons in - one at a time, or delete it in favor of something else.

Once the "transaction" is rolling and this guy's drooling, I begin with the "I'm so glad this is on time payments, cuz this latest divorce has really screwed up my credit and I'd love to get it re-established with this purchase ..." and give lurid details of the several kids I have from previous relationships, and the hassles of the mean courts and judges who have no sense of humor, ad nauseum, ... until he finds a reason to head to the office for some questions, ...

... and continue down the mall.

If he hasn't learned by then, my business, being done, leaves me more time to keep occupied until he realizes how many potential contacts he has missed by talking to me.

This ain't hard, because I have people already referring me to others in Circuit City and Best Buy, and I'm there on legitimate business.

What can I say? I'm good!

For training, see "What About Bob?" with Bill Murray.

by jerome.koch

Let's face it. Things have gotten much easier since 1995. PC Hardware (Engineered Commodities), Disk Cloning Software(can easily automate imaging), and centralized management software (ie Altiris) is rapidly making the desktop support position a low end, low pay, entry level job. It's not even worth considering for 4 year graduates of college. I know, some larger firms still require MCSAs or MS helpdesk certs. But the job itself can be taught to anyone who has even just a little interest in PCs, Networks, and OS.

The younger people who staff these jobs are easily replaced if they don't toe the line. Rarely do large IT Depts even consider mentoring Desktop people for more complex positions (which is a shame). It's also a shame that many of these people forked over big bucks to get training just to qualify for a low level PC gopher.

by manitobamike

I find the largest number of calls I get in our company involve "never mind". ie: numloc off/on, O instead of 0 (letter instead of number), dragging taskbar to side or top, and my favorite "can't type anything" with error message popup box on screen.
You only need patience to deal with these calls not much for knowledge. :)

by dogknees

I think there is still a need for broad skills and knowledge on a Helpdesk. A lot of the time, you've really got to listen to what the person is saying, and the sounds in the background to pickup the real problem. You also need to know your users idiosyncracies to be able to realise what they mean vs what they say.

I often hear a user double-clicking and know they should only be single clicking for example.

I guess it also depends on what your expectation of a call to a helpdesk is. To me, you should be able to solve 90% or so on the phone as part of the first call. That's the way we've been doing it for the last 15 years or so where I work.

I'm a programmer mainly, but still do helpdesk stuff. You really need deep and broad knowledge of everything from hardware to OS, to applications, to human nature to solve problems up front, and I don't see the new tools changing that a lot.

by jimtheengineer

You were walking to the bank - and a salesperson tried to sell you a computer? I've never run into that here (Minneapolis, MN USA) - is that common in Australia? Did he follow you into the bank and try to get your identity information, too?

Trivia - we started it! Minneapolis area had the first enclosed mall - Southdale, 1956 - and now has the Mall of America (or what we call the "Megamall").

All in fun... :o)

by hal 9000

Or a Mall as I believe the Americans call them there. The Dell crown had piratically closed off all passage past their stand in the middle of and though fare and where attempting to stop as many people as possible and sell them something.

This particular kid thought that he knew it all so he just had to teach me the error of my ways and sell me a $1,200.00 AU Dell NB. It's not even heavy enough to use as a Boat Anchor. :(

Or strong enough to bash someone to death with. Actually I should have tried that with the Demo one to see if it could pass my [b]Stress Testing![/b]. :D

The little Sod caught me twice once going to the bank and then on the way back to the car. Instead of looking for a potential sale he just had to instruct me on how good these things are. Then the next day when I was doing some work I got hit by him again. God I hate that place.

Col

by media-ted9

n'est ?e pas?

Would it do any good there to post an ad in Classifieds in the local paper asking for people who do not appreciate being accosted to reply to a PO Box you set up?

That usually scares 7734 out of folks here.

by tachyon

It seems like these days, any moron that can turn on their own computer and browse MySPace is a "Computer Expert".

They don't listen, they do what they want, and they undo what you do for them, and then blame you when it all stops working.

Even worse are people with an MCSE. Who think that being stupid and or dishonest enough to pay money for letters after their title can replace years of real experience and knowledge. Even worse, the waste of corporate funds that is the HR dept. falls for this BS.

I know, it's very frustrating. All I can tell you is have good hobbies to help you relax.

by jack-m

Get used to it. Since "point and click" first appeared a help desk person has to know little more than where the reset button is.

by billmlod

I have been in tech support for over 20 years and if all you can do is tell them to hit reset then we know where the problem is..I have to learn software, how it works, how to help them connect to the network, work on hardware (can you change a hard drive or diagnose bad memory??) and a lot more. Sometimes it just means showing up at their desk & watching them do something right the first time, it's called morale support - something todays new techs need to learn.

by derek_mobile

I agree with you entirely. I believe the problem is with the employers who take on people who have not even finished college and pay them the minimum wage. In turn they gain enough knowlegde to fool the management into thinking they are reasonably competent and soon the management are looking at the experienced I.T. / I.S. staff and asking why they are getting paid so much. The main problem with this senario is that it discourages professionials from taking up IT as a career if they are going to get qualifications and get paid the same as a student.
Would you hire an unqualified student to perform critical functions your finance department ?

by mr. hardware

Family member (yeah the stuff we work on the most) needed a little umph on his box. So went to a COMPUSA in his area, to see what kind of RAID cards they had. Sellsperson told me I'd have to wait in line and talk to the service tech. Sigh, wait about 5 min, ask the tech (the one who fixes machines). His reply; "What's a RAID card?"

by hal 9000

Belong well away from IT? :D

The service Tech was quite right in not knowing what a RAID Card actually was. I bet he tried to sell you a SCSI Card when you told him what a RAID Card actually was right? :^0

OH for the good old days where these [b]Professional Techs[/b] saved all the data off a clients computer and sold it to his competition while at the same time claiming that it had been destroyed. Their only aim is to make as much money with as little as possible work.

Col

by mr. hardware

weird how consumers feel more comfortable with the department store repair, when there may be low ethics envolved.

by mbisciotti

I agree I think these younger people think they know everything about computers. They only know how to all the corny sites and play video games. Working help desk is a skill that takes a while to get good at. The key is having strong troubleshooting skills and really listening to what the problem is. When younger people run into a problem they want to restore or nuke the machine.

by mbisciotti

Working a help desk takes strong troubleshooting and listening skills. Most young people dont have. Theyre to worried about the next video game or corny website that comes out.

by fred123456

Man you opened up a can of worms.
Four of my twenty years of experience is in the Tech teaching role. In that role I have taught students ranging in ages from 18 to 65 and I have seen a lot of arrogance, but it is inevitable.

The youth of today(15-25) are the true computer literate. They live, breath, and work on/in technology. Even if they are not employed in the technology field they know more than the average 30 something.

Remember how arrogant you were when you were 15 or so. You knew it all and just wanted more of everything. Now take a subject like technology where you (the 15 or so) realize that you know more than the average Joe. The sad part is, my son is 4 and he is more computer literate at 4 than I was at 13, 26 years ago.

Instant arrogance..

During the 80's and 90s, the IT community had shaped itself to rely on certs as the tell tale sign of knowledge, which had a major flaw. The sharing of questions and answers in the form of web page brain dumps. Not to mention the average Joe who crams for a test and passes with flying colors but doesn't absorb a thing.
Help Desk is the biggest IT industry problem because a large majority of organizations, private and public, consider help desk as menial. Helpdesk is the front line of you organization and needs to be trained and treated the same way as the sales force / marketing teams.

Nothing replaces experience.

So until the industry starts relying more on experience and expertise, we will inevitably be portrayed as Jimmy Falon's "Computer Guy" from Saturday Night Live.

by tachyon

>The youth of today(15-25) are the true computer literate. They live, breath, and work on/in technology. Even if they are not employed in the technology field they know more than the average 30 something.

I have to disagree with you here. Though you have hit on the meat of the problem.
These 15-25's are not at all computer literate. They are application literate. They know how to install 101 useless timewasting programs. They know how to make a cybernetic abortion of a website on MySpace. They can IM with one hand while text messaging with the other. They are expert _users_ BUT they know nothing about the underlying technology and how it works. And frankly, schools are partly to blame. I see a LOT of courses that teach nothing in the way of concepts but rather focus on teaching products. This is a great dis-service to the students and their future employers. It's completely backwards/upside down to the way it should be. IF students were taught concepts, then they could easily figure out new applications on their own. But students taught applications become dumbfounded when applications change.
The "certification" courses are even worse, mostly being composed of rambling nonsense mixed in with a lots of rote memorization of application usage.
For example, courses should be titled something like "Word processing concepts and applications" not "Using Microsoft Word".

by jmgarvin

We create drones in education now. Higher education still focuses on the meat, but K-12 is lost. If we don't teach students that you can't solve every problem with a computer, perhaps they'd understand the limitations. If we'd explain soft computing to students early, maybe they'd see something more to their cruise control...

I think the major problem is that the teachers that love to teach and do it becaus they love it aren't rewarded. So the crapbags that hang on, and drag everyone aroudn them down, are treated EXACTLY the same as the excellent teachers. So what happens? The excellent tearchers leave and you're left with the waterballoons that have no idea wtf is going on.
Of course the whole certification market has really borked things up. It's marketing speak and little in the way of real knowledge. With questions like
"XP is the most secure operating system ever! True or False"

No wonder certs are circling the toilet.

by bigbigboss

I have been telling people that the most knowledgeable people are junior high students, and their admitted level of knowledge decline steadily until it hits zilch by the time they become full professors of an ivy league. If you don't believe it, just ask a junior high (or middle school) student.

However, look on the bright side. This is going to pass. This happens when the majority of the people did not grow up with using computers. When the next crop of geeks hits the street (those in primary schools now), these know it alls will know nothing at all. I have predicted the passing of desk side help desk for a few years now, and I see it coming real soon now.

by jcelko212

>> you also need to recognize your place and the limitations of your expertise. <<

The quote from DIRTY HARRY! "A man has to know his limitations"

>> I think the older people here are setting the trend. You blame the young newbie for being arrogant, but look at what they are up against. <<

Sophomore means "learned fool"

>> older guys expect to be worshiped. <<

"gray hair is a sign of old age, not wisdom" -- Czech proverb

I do a lot of consulting; a few decades ago I became "The SQL guy" and stopped being the Fortran/algol/C/Pascal programmers (type cast as Johnny One-Note --m nthe danger of writing hundreds of SQL magazine columns and a few books).

I was on a project where I was the leader and the data base guy. When I had done my part, I turned to a team member >20 years my junior and told my team that "Jesse was our War Chief" for the rest of the project.

This was his first leadership role. I still did the crappy paperwork so upper management would happy. But he gave the orders on app side of the project. It freaked him to have a man his father's age taking orders from him. The rest of the team about seeing me give up power. But we all adjusted in 1-2 weeks.

When it was time to get me off the project, I had gotten management to put him in charge. He asked (1) how do I do an exit interview with a consultant? (2) if I would like a recommendation.

by gmalmos

why do you say that? You cannot truly believe that all people who sell things (pc's for instance) are such idiotic losers. I am fixin to go to work for dell in one of their 'kiosk' stores to sell computers and tv's etc. I have 12 yrs IT (desktop support) expierience. I challenge you to find bette computer equipment for the price (unless you build em yourself like I do). So what exactly will I be lying about? Generalizations suck as a general type of rule

by media-ted9

... in the process tarnished your credentials, I'm afraid.

If you have 12 yrs IT support, I guess the best reason for your move is so you can relax while your customers try learning Hindi in order to get help from your new help desk, right?

Sheesh!

by curran.davis

Sadly common, but this type won't last in support long without people skills. And after all: HR droids have to start somewhere.

by glenvdb

The helpdesk industry has been corruped by all the outsourse centers. Companies like Convergys don't want skilled people, all they want is "Butts in a chair" and the worker dosn't have to speak english or know anything about computers. In fact,all they want is people to work for $10 an hour. I have worked for a few call centers (Even Dell) and they are all run the same way- its not about helping people with problems, its about numbers and answering as many calls a day (especially when people are paying $99 a call)
HR people are no better, they see you worked in a few call centers and they expect you will work in more, even if has nothing to do with IT or helpdesk. I get at least 5 calls a week from HR people desperate to fill call center jobs- even non-computer related, all because I thought I had to "pay my dues" in a call center.

by troy15

Our data center on the university reflects
reality. We have McSoft, RHEL, OSX and *nix
running.

Don't let the McSoft `boys` fool you. Their
crapware causes the most pain in production
environments.

by sjchurchman

PLC's or programmable logic controllers are used in factories, industrial, and production enviroments. They control large machines that require enourmous power.

Depending upon who manufactures the PLC's and their age will decide if a particular operating system has the necessary software to control them.

JCitizen perhaps should have explained things clearer.

by n2vdy

He means in a production environment on a factory floor where you have to connect a PC to a machine to find out what the heck is wrong. Usually this happens in the middle of the day and you need to get the line back up ASAP. If the major PLC manufacturers like Allen-Bradley, Omron, and AutomationDirect would make Linux versions of their software then it would be a different story.

by media-ted9

because I came to a company with experience, dedication, and quality. The company was hiring people and "interns" who had little knowledge, and I was trying to overcome the compounding problems as much as I could, including saving my work for them on removable disks so when their "servers" lost or truncated entire books of work, I could "restore" it, but they preferred to have me rework it - costing them another three weeks.

As I say, they threatened to fire me for performing in a professional manner.

As I see it, the problem is not as much with the silly students - they're that age, that's what we should expect!

The real problem is with corporate "management know-it-alls" who don't want to spend quality pay for quality work; who don't know how computers work, ... and would rather die than learn; managers who rely on their intuitive ignorance for success in decision-making, then blame the real workers for "stirring the pot" when things cannot possibly work right. Of course, these same folk couldn't tell if things were going right by accident; they refuse to know the difference. Their main/only concern is that they can hear the sound of their own voices and see people scurry around at their commands - - - as long as nothing happens to get them in trouble.

The useless middle management (and upper, in too many cases).

by dmcnair420

man, you are so correct. I spent 5 years in school trying to get the degrees that I needed to be an IT professional only to find that work does not exist for those that are 40+ in the field. Just the other day I had in in my office that insisted that my printer was broken. I let him fiddle around with it for a while and then I added paper while he was gone to server room...when got back the i was nearly finished printing a 50 page document and he stormed out of the office without saying goodbye...now who's the dummy?

by ornerdoug

I also spent 4 1/2 years writing my own degree in Information & Web Technologies.
I am starting to wonder why I went back to school and made another bill when all I would of had to do was say I knew what I was doing and looked busy for about 7 hours a day while I chatted with my pals and played games during work hours.

I look back fondly on those 12 hour factory shifts.

by toms45

here's a little old American way of getting rid of obnoxious sales weenies. Get up kind of close to him, look him in the eye, growl and scowl at him - "Get outta my face, Dipwad!". But, if he's bigger than you, just keep walking...LOL

by toms45

I'm currently in the job search arena and I'm ashamed to admit, I never considered your suggestions. I'll give it a try this week. Thanks for the new ideas...
Toms45

by jdclyde

"honest mistake Ma'am! I am sure I would have caught it before I had installed the wrong carpet!"

The big question is, did she have the nerve come back and complain?

Yeah, people like that really annoy me. They don't care that they are wasting someone elses time or resources, because they still think it is all about them, in their pathetic little worlds.

by jdclyde

that isn't what your boss is paying you to do. Did you think that maybe he wants you do to your job instead of playing with the computers?

just a thought....

by media-ted9

If the writer is being slowed down and takes his wait time to make the system work better so he can do his work more effeciently, what's the harm?

You must be in "Boss" level yourself. Sometimes we need to read the lines before we get between them.

I know, I wrote the article about almost being fired. The problems still exist because morons with power think ignorance is power - and, unfortunately - it is.

by jdclyde

In a personal setting, if someone goes against my specific advice, they are on their own, flapping in the wind. Lession learned.

If it is at work, they get "It is a burden always being right, but I am used to it....".

Not arrogant, just correct. When you explain WHY, and someone does otherwise anyways and eXACTLY what you said WOULD happen, DID happen, they deserve to get a taunt.

by jdclyde

flattery. lead people to a solution, but let them THINK it is their solution.

If someone has an idea counter to yours, ask them to explain the benifits of their idea vs the down sides of your idea.

When they are rude, be direct. "When you say XXXXX, it makes me feel like you do not trust my skills/judgement/ have respect for me as a worker and a person".

Sounds corny, but conflict resolution is very important. If your work ever offers for you to go to a class on this, I strongly recommend it.

And the new "guy" always has to prove THEMSELVES, not the other way around. Come in with ego, you are toast. Many geeks are also territorial, and will snap at anyone they see as a threat.

by jdclyde

If you get paid for your OT, their stupidity just got you a bigger check.

If you do not, sucks to be you. :0 ;\

The FIRST time someone toasts something and then tries to blame it on me is the last time, and right up the food chain I would march with proof that I was not the one and the weasle that did it not only made a mess but then lied to THEIR boss about it. People rarely are in a position to try that cute trick twice.

by jcitizen

I made a flippant reply to Mantitobamike because I new he would understand. I didn't think anyone else would be interested in the conversation. (sorry) n2vdy has also hit the nail on the head. Novell and the various Unix flavors to not make drivers or operating systems compatible to the majority of automated factory systems manufacturer's use for production.

Consequently PC's (Windows), supply most of the logic and/or monitoring systems and software for these applications. Not that something else wouldn't be better, but it would take a quantum shift to get going. My brother has been working diligently to expound the virtues of using Apple technology to supply both the chipsets and software for such applications but most companies, that go this route, default to virtualization as an easy way out in these instances; which until very recently was too slow. Cincinnati Milacron has had some success with this but troubleshooting can be a nightmare if you've never cut your teeth on it before. He will also be watching the Novell efforts very closely, believe me.

by badferret

Q How do tell that a used car salesman is lying?
A: His lips are moving.

Q: How do you tell a computer salesman is lying?
A: Hes breathing.

by media-ted9

If he's breathing, he's stopped talking for a nanosecond. Boy, I thought you were sharp, but ...

by rl-ns

Salesmen suck...

arrogant co-workers suck...

at least u don't have to put up with salesmen all day.. (I hope)

by maeseralf

Funny version of the old history!
Sure many of us have some in the way. They never will understand they are loosing customers so.
Now I teach sales techniques. I always say: never brag against the thing the client bought! And never say the competitors are worse than me!
Some salesman had told me that electronic equipment did not work for more than 5 years. He was trying to sell me a turntable with built-in preamplifier. I have a DC-coupled class AB split amplifier with FET input transistors, and 60W per channel power deck. But he said a modern class M is more reliable and with better sound quality. Modern is better, you know, even when comparing a truck from the 70s with a cycle of today. It never minds for them the class of the product.