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certification a boon?

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by x10nd 1 view

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Are certification really a boon or a reall worth in comparison with experience.

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by pa2ed

I have a medical degree. No "formal" computer training. By default (like a lot of people) I "fell into" computers by maintaining our office network, eventually expanding it into an integrated system.

Wanting to capitalize on this, not wanting to return to school, I studied for and passed the A+ and Networking examinations.

Besides learning a lot (!), It opened sev4eral doorsa for medical-applications consulting.

Ed Mathes

by ebob

I figure it depends on how the certifications are used. If, like the Dr., you use the certifications to prove that your experience is VALID, and as a bonus learn some new stuff: good.

However, far too many certifications out there are given to people whose only experience is in preparing for the exams. These are the "paper MCSEs" and other certs that I feel are bringing down the entire certification process.

As a hiring manager, I would sooner take a person with experience and no certs, than certification and no experience. Bring both to me? OK.

by dukebytes

eBob,

You couldn't be more to the point. If you have the experience - good for you. If not - get some!! and then do the certs.

I have CompTIA and Novell certs (working on Cisco) - but I won't even touch the MSCE stuff because "everybody and their brother" has one. I took all the tests for the certs that I have with NO formal training - just experience and browsing thru a book. I have 16 years in IT and about 5 of those working with NT - no certs in NT and if that's not good enough foryou - well :P - I'll go look somewhere else...

Bring both to me? - well stated!!!!!

Duke

by nick l

Certs were of value because they defined an experienced technical expert. Now they mean nothing. Too many companies have run schemes to get MS / Cisco etc Partner status by force feeding X members of staff through the certification process just so that the company can claim to have X MCSEs / CCNAs etc on the staff as a marketing tool. Many of these people were first line support staff with less than a years experience.

In many case those with the experience and knowledge were out of practicewith cramming for exams and struggled, those fresh faced kids just out of college were still in the exam taking mode and breezed through. I know one personally who read the exam cram book a couple of times and passed without ever having actually seen the product!

Just recently a colleague was sent on a CCNA Bootcamp course. Just before he went he was asking me to explain the 7 layer ISO model (NO that was not my mistype) two weeks later he was a CCNA, but when asked, he admitted he would notknow where to start configuring a router (Because he had NEVER done it).

HOWEVER, beware! A number of companies now regard MCSE as a basic qualification and have seen many adverts were it is in as a pre-requisite. (Remember when MCSEs were peopleyou were slightly in awe of)

by mikel~t

I have a friend who is an MCSE, but he didn't have one ounce of experience. He eventually found a job as a system technician, and he is constantly calling for help.

I warned him that the books don't teach you everything. He paid $5K for some classes, thinking the labs would give him the real life experience he needed: Yeah Right!!!

I'm just glad he lives on the other side of the state or he'd be coming to my house on a nightly basis so I could do his job for him some more.

Anyway, my point is that certification is nice, but nothing beats experience. Employers are aware of this, but still you see the Certification requirements in their job descriptions.

My 12 year old daughter memorized the braindumps one weekend and blistered me with questions about issues the tests never even covered. She doesn't have the experience, but she could take my friend's job away from him in a heartbeat if she weren't still in the 7th grade.

Mike

by rulds

I see this discussion everywhere and there is never much middle ground. One side screaming "paper this or that" the other saying give me a chance. From what I can tell if all you are is just on paper it'll come out soon enough. If all you are is work history so be it but don't belly ache when the one with the cert gets a job. If you know it all already take the damn test and tell them all to shutup, otherwise its your turn. I'm in the process of learning several skills that I need for a position that is rapidly changing. Yes the knowledge is the most important, but I'd be a fool not to get the cert. to go along with it. If you don't like the marketing aspect of the IT field then I'm right there with you. It ain't about to change anytime soon. SO as long as I'm in the game I'll play by the rules. This beast is ever changing and you have to be too. Get the paper, use the skills, and be the one that helps the situation. IF more of us are ligitamatly certified then that's the way to applyreal pressure on those that aren't.

by meinckef

In order to get ahead it is best to have both, the practical knowledge and the Certification. The Certification is not the all knowing sign of approval, it is just an indicator that you have met a standard. People will always discuss the pros and cons of getting certified or not, it depends on whether they have passed the tests or not. I have seen people who have the MCSE and can not build a 3.11 computer and I have seen people with no certification build LANs. I tell people all the time, get the practical knowledge and then back it up with paper not the other way around. When going into a job interview if you have both, you cannot go wrong.

by stephen.sarty

Plenty of arguements on either side of this issue. On one hand you have the people in the industry who have the experience and resent the new people trying to break in and on the other you have the guys with a paper MCSE etc. waiting for the world to open up for them just because they have the certs. So who is right ? It's up to you. The best answer I feel is that it cannot hurt to get the certs. It helps a company to judge your ability to learn and understand. I realize that the MCSE NT4.0 cert is a joke, but they are working to improve this with Win2K. If a company is willing to accept you knowing your limited ability then whats the problem. If you expect to slide into a S.A. position with just an MCSE then you could be in for a surprise. Use the cert to get you in the door at the lower level and then prove yourself. Don't get the certs and then act like the world owes you a favor.

by tomlingus

Years ago people would pad their resume with experience. Nowadays the network mgr will interview , the security mgr will interview, and so on. People should get get credit when they get hired. This sounds silly but we should realy learn to get along. If you ever asked a dr. about another dr. they well..., it was a bad day--And they bill us $200 /hr. I'm quite sure there were C and B gpa medical students, but you know what they maintain a professional level of professionalism.

We should help all those who get into this IT field. When the system @#%^ up we're all called in.

by sisdelaine

My question is how do you get the experience when many, many companies will not hire you without the cert./degree?

by tomlingus

Companies hire college grads as entry level, and they know that.

Certification exams are straight forward. If you know the material, experience or no experience it should be no problem.

The certification program is experience to some degree. You actually do some simulated configurations that are exactly the same as real world environments. Most law offices have no more than 2 servers.

Keep studying and you'll do fine. No different from high school or college.

by meinckef

I know that this may seem silly; however, there are many organizations that have computers; however, they have no one to administer them. Fix their computers and get them running so that they are happy and believe me, any donated time in that area and they will have no problem giving a recommedation.

by generalist

Ouch!

I remember the problems I had nailing down the seven layer OSI model. While I had twenty years experience in IT, I had only encountered it in a class I took. That class required that I learn the model and all the ins and outs associated with it. It also had some hands on experience with setting up a small scale network and dealing with TCPIP, subnetting and other things covered by the Network+ exam.

Maybe the person is slightly dyslexic? After all, ISO is also a common TLA in the IT world.

(TLA = Three Letter Abbreviation)

by epepke

I remember back in the mid-1980's when people were talking about OSI. It was fairly confusing, because the ISO was involved in some of the talks on OSI.

I wonder about glass houses and stones, though. The majority of people say TCP/IP when theyreally should be saying IP.

by nick l

.... that the guy didn't know the TLA let alone understand the model yet within a couple of weeks this guy was a CCNA

by generalist

As I mentioned in a similar thread, certifications are much like a driver's license. It indicates that you know enough of the rules of the road that 'official' organizations consider you able to drive.

But, as a driver's license, it DOESN'T tellanybody how well you can drive.

by stever

I have found that the non-technical people tend to be more in favor of those letters on a resume than in the years spent working "on the job"

by tomsal

It all depends the value you, as an individual place on them. If you are one of those "I'll just learn the *answers* for certs online and then I'll get a job for $60k a year" types, then yes - certs are worth less than a refrigerator in Antarctica.
However, if you use certs for personal development (ie. to supplement you in the pursuit of acquiring real experience) than I say they are excellent training/learning tools.

Certs also make excellent "refresher courses".

I possess 3 IT certs right now and 2 college degrees - on top of 6 years professional IT experience and about 10-12 years of "non-professional" computer experience before that.

Yeah I post them on my resume to make it look prettier and because I know that's the "IN THING" right now most employers like to see. But besides resumes or discussions like this one, you won't see me or hear me making mention of my certs at all.

I use them as a guage of my own personal knowledge and for new areas I never tested on - I use them as a personal challenge.

Nothing more. Nothing less.

They are learning aids/tools for me. Not the passports to IT that some seem to think they are.

I'm hoping to start work on my 3rd degree next year. I've spent much time on computer skills, now I need to sharpen my business skills.

In the end its all just making yourself more marketable in a an ever increasing global employment economy.

Sell your self.

:)

by tomlingus

It's not the same, but is a boon. The certification process helps you study the material. If you follow the MS Press courseware - it's a structured way to provide you with the material. How else would you get it, especially when you're going intoa new field.

Just the same as Physics II in college. You learned the material but have you ever stepped inside a nuclear plant. Maybe you were lucky to do an intern at Los Alamos.

One day you will as an entry level Engineer working with a Senior Engineer.

And as IT Professionals we should make sure to help the paper mcses as some would call it because we were there at one point.

I'm sorry I came back to this but it seems that this is all I ever read on these e-mail threads.

by lbmw

I wish more employers had your attitude. I've been in the field for 18 mos. now. Compared to people I've worked with who had significantly more experience- I had no problems keeping up with them (or above some). I also have some certs (MCSE,MCP,A+,Network+). But there seems to be this "magic" to having 3-5 yrs. of experience.Every job posting I see seems to have this approx. requirement- PERIOD.The attitude seems to be that this is some kind of country club- and no new members are welcome. I was getting ready to take my CCNA (having popped for the cost of some Cisco H/W myself) and i know I'm ready- but I just don't see much point to getting more certs that an employer won't care about because I don't have that magic # of yrs. of experience. If the IT industry can't figure out a way for more people to break into it, then some years from now (not many because alot of you will have had hypertension induced heart attacks), the industry will be crying even more loudly than it was just a few months ago for help, because all their Admins died from stress and their users are trying to run the network. See 'ya IT- i'm going back to retail!

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