Cheap Software

I think at best it sounds sketchy. buyig a download from WHERE? sounds like someoe is mass distributig software illegally.

as for your Quicken, it sounds a little mroe legit but I would want to explore laws or licence clauses of that specific product regarding foreig software used in America.

There is a guy in nanaimo who advertises all oer the Island for THOUSANDS of titles completely legal at abotu $25.00 copy. Personally, I have never needed to pay for softwae so it doesn't amuse me, btu I wonder how many eople are buying up WinXPPro for $25.00? And what the repersuccions would be, I am nearly positive this guy doesn't have some loophole ad is just pirating software.

For a company, tell the stingy bugger to dig deeo ad do it right, then yuo will eer have to worry, you can then run the business knowing without a doubt that you are morally and ethically correct.

home PC's that's one thing, I have used more than my fair share of pirated software for personal use, usually just to learn it properly on my own time. For a business, stay above board, if there's grey areas, walk into the light instead.

Sorry to diverge from the topic, but I use an original IBM keyboard (probably 12 - 14 years old) specifically because I can type more accurately on it than any of the newer, soft-touch keyboards.

In my "trade" of selling refurbished computers, hundreds of keyboards pass through my hands. The IBM leaves them all for dead, and is certainly vastly superior to the keyboards that have come with recent computers that I have purchased new, which have a feel like marshmallow and you can't really tell by feel whether or not you have actually made the electrical contact.

With the IBM I make far fewer typing errors than on any other keyboard I have used.

And while we are on the subject, let's think back to the IBM Golfball electric typewriter: it could accommodate the fastest typist, but it was virtually impossible to make a typo on it.

I'll simplify this as much as possible.

First off, I know the sites you are referring too I get *at least* an offer for their business 3 times a week, and sometimes twice that often.

Those guys are shady...and I can all but guarantee you they acquired that software for resale through non-legitimate means. Think of it in logical simple terms if you need to rationalize -- how else could a vendor support their business selling software with an MSRP of $500 for $50 - $85? For them to even cover the costs of overhead to turn a profit they'd have to charge more than that alone IF THEY PLAYED BY THE RULES THEMSELVES when buying the software for resale.

I know the standard line they feed for their prices....

A) Well we do all our business exclusively online and because we keep our costs low we can afford to pass savings onto our customers?

YEAH RIGHT...I'll buy that if the savings is say 25-30%, but 75-90% savings? (Why is that old line " if it seems to good to be true it usually is" playing in my head now?)

B) Volume. The good ol'...oh we get very low prices due to our enormous purchasing power...line.

Yeah and your business is so boomingly big, your purchasing power so great that your spam emails have more grammar errors than a 100 word essay written by a 4th grader and the professional look (and effort) of the newsletter you send out or the website I go to looks like something my technology-phobic sister whipped up in 5 minutes. Nice try.

OEM software is not allowed to be sold as retail software is, without accompanying a hardware purchase of some kind (that's the loop hole).

I got XP Pro OEM through newegg.com, but it was legal since when I bought the OS I also bought a hard drive and a CD-RW drive with it; meeting the hardware requirement.

Another thing to note is OEM software is tied to the machine its installed on originally.

I'm not going to kid you, I bet you 90% (if not 100%) of everyone violates the hell out of that rule with regards to software use at home; but in a business -- don't violate that OEM rule.

Microsoft and other companies that are subscribers to the BSA (Business Software Alliance) are the best resources as to the validity of licenses on their products. One could email "piracy@microsoft.com" and get a pretty quick reply to any questions they may have about this.

It's just one of those things...it's not a problem until you get caught. Then, it's a HUGE problem...

I do not like the idea of purchasing software (either for home or business use)from Spam solicitations.
To me, it seems along the line of the scam (Note: rhymes with "Spam") of a tradesman knocking at your door with the offer of "We just finished a job down the street and we have some left over material. We can take care of your roof/painting/wallet real cheaply."
I want to do business with someone I can initiate the contact. I want to know where they are (not just 1-800-scam-you or www.NeverGiveASuckerAnEvenBreak.ru) so I can contact them.
Paul

Having read all the posts, not to sound critical but I'm a little surprised no one's brought up the issues of ethics and corporate responsibility.

I'm all for saving money but quite frankly I'm wondering what you're even thinking about here. None of us who have purchasing authority on behalf of our organizations have any obligation to enrich vendors but we do have a moral, legal, and ethical responsibility to operate by the rules.

This is not a rant on free trade...my point is that we all have a personal responsibility to operate at the highest standard of ethical behavior, and a corporate fiduciary responsibility to protect our organizations from harmful products. We also have a larger responsibility to the IT community and the entire business community to discourage the proliferation of shady operators by refusing to do business with them.

If a deal sounds too good to be true...it is. I believe you knew when you saw the solicitation that it was almost certainly bogus, or else you wouldn't have posted the question.

Spam is spam, and a scam's a scam. If it smells bad, walk away.

Check any Microsoft OEM license agreement. The license is only valid with the hardware that was purchased at the same time as the OEM license (and they both have to come from the same vendor). If that hardware ever dies, the license dies with it. It is not transferrable to another PC, even one that REPLACES the originally licensed PC.

So, if you are going to pirate software anyway by buying OEM copies that aren't legit, why pay for pirated copies at all?

Well, first, in the case of Microsoft you are talking about a US company, and for this reply I am going to assume that you want XP Pro SP2 on your new computers. What I would do, if you folks are building the computers in-house, is to in essence declare yourselves (the builders themselves or a small department within the company) Microsoft OEMs and register as same. In point of fact, you then CAN buy OEM software legitimately from the majors.Current legit OEM price for a thrity pack of XP Pro is in the competitive range of about $3800 shipped for thirty unit packages (likely to be SP1, add about $200 to the thirty pack price for SP2), and I have seen OEM singles and three-packs for about $135.00 shipped each.I get these things shipped ground, normally-- so air will amek your milage vary from mine.

There are three problems with buying XP from overseas. First, you cannot be really assured of getting keys that Microsoft issued.

Second, enforcing the bad ship will be not done under US law, it will be done under the country's law where the company actually is located. And court action will happen in that country.Second, the precise version will be up to the company selling the product-- soem of those who are selling legit copies of XP, with legit COAs.Microsoft says if a COA is not physically tendered it is NOT licenseable unless you get a site license from the channels that Microsoft allows for in its licensing and policy enforcement, so for a download plus key in email for an OS from Microsoft or any Microsoft product, this would be defacto OUTSIDE the licensing policies and the contract law Microsoft uses to enforce the licensing. For AP, key alone is not enough, unless you are registered with Microsoft as a site license or bulk licensing distributor, and that mostly applies NOT to SP2 and rather to 2000 and earlier as the licening contracts for older operating systems of Windows kinds were somewhat less stringent.

Third, let's say you get a Windows pack from Bulgaria and it comes in not as SP2, not even as SP1a, but as XP Original. There are several gotchas in this one: language settings and installer might be in an eastern European language or Cyrrilic (Russian alphabet, roughly); the time per computer to upgrade 30 boxes will either eat a TON of network bandwidth and IT time, or you will need to apply SP1A and security packs and then SP2 to each box from legit archives of those things-- that alone will take more time in IT pay than the buying of SP2 pre-canned would take up in paying a legit price for same XP with SP2 preintegrated onto CD (those CDs ARE shipping); you will get to go back to the Bulgarian company for tech support for the most part-- self-OEMs do not get install support from folks who buy OS and ARE NOT themselves Registered OEMS, for XP SP1a and SP2, and if the COAs are not in print and you are challanged contractually in court, you get big fines given the DMCA in US and Microsoft's aggressive stance in US.

There's somthing worse that could happen-- what you get might not even be XP as your boss knows it-- there is a new version of XP being offered int eh Far East, Thailand, parts of India, etc, which is being sold as a cut-down-feature XP whihc is intended to be used only in country Microsoft sells it in-- and lots of the things a business needs are simply not in that regional subversion.

Get it shipped in, one COA per box, or buy a site license if all boxes will be in one place. qualifying to buy a site license can be complex, and you will need an attorney involved in the eval. I'd buy a thirty-pack if you are really buying enough hardware for new boxes, and if you want to really dot all I's and cross all T's then you buy lots of your hardware from same place you buy the OS pack from.

Your "boss" is cheap, clueless, and incompetent -- and those are his good points. Your fearless leader not only reads his spam, but would actually consider sending money to a spammer.

This guy's a real bargain -- not only would he violate copyright law, placing his organization at risk, but he would pay a spammer for the priviledge. All to save a buck. A real winner.

Maybe the cheap Viagra and manhood enhancement technology worked out for him.

Employers have a right to expect that their employees are productive and ethical and earn their pay. Employees (that would include you) have a right to expect competent, ethical management that is deserving of loyalty. Your boss is not holding up his end of the bargain. Terminate him.

But enough about your boss -- let's talk about you -- that you would choose to continue to work for a proven fraud is questionable. Perhaps you have some personal situation that locks you into such a dysfunctional organization, but more likely you have a choice -- you can remain an inmate of the asylum or walk. Better yet, tell your boss to knock off the stupid pills, give you a $10,000 raise (he's probably paying you jack) and don't EVER make such a idiot suggestion again, or you'll go over his head to his boss -- and if you hear one peep of retaliation from either of them, it's BSA-City, baby.

To your question -- you are "not quite sure" about this. The proposed vendor doesn't "look that good". No kidding! The return e-mail address is no good. The domain is spoofed. There is no physical address, no phone number. You get dozens of almost identical spams every month, altered slightly to get through the filters. You can buy for 10 cents on the dollar. What are you "not quite sure" about? Can you possibly be this clueless?

Boy, this is really confusing, really tough to figure out -- it sounds like a total scam and rip-off, but hey, maybe you can save $1.98 for all the hours of work and risk you will take.

Of course, you could just call the BSA at 202.872.5500 (took me 2 seconds on Google to get the number) and ask them about this. Or read their article entitled "Software Watchdog Issues Consumer Alert: Beware of Software Offered Via Email Spams -- Most Email Spams Trace Back to Organized Pirate Groups in Eastern Europe". This non-dilemma can be resolved in 60 seconds, assuming you really want to the know the answer.

Here's what I'm "not quite sure" about -- is it really your "boss" that has this brilliant idea? If so, I have a "friend" that would like to buy some cheap Viagra from him.

Ok lets say you got the deal of the century, and you have out smarted all the large corporations and governments who may have the same per post price that you have found; and if this is true, you should consider opening a "How to get it cheaper" consultancy... you'll make a killing!

My questions to you are who is going to maintain the software for minor and major updates? To whom will you report a bug or security hole that has just allowed some "de facto" illegal to enter you business causing havoc and perhaps arrest of the hierarchy needed to run the business causing crashing stock shares, and door closing of a once reputable business? Do you really thing that you are going to have any maintenance support from this type of transaction? Don't forget that maintence is a reoccuring back door cost of 10-20% of any licence.

Think of licence purchasing as an investment into a line of trade tools. Most quality trade tools have a lifetime guarantee; if it breaks, you get a new one. Going the discount OEM route, unless sold with the necessary HW for which it was intended, you are illegal... and when it breaks you will be forced to buy the real thing... so you have actually increased the price of your tool instead of the desired decrease.

The discount SW houses who have built-in key generators for their printed CD-ROMs or downloadable counterparts have a very high risk of containing scrpipts that open your enterprise to the world, litteraly! Handy those built-in keyloggers as well.. thats right 3 months have past by and now you discover that someone has conveniently transferred your company money into banking accounts around the world for who knows what they will be financing. Child pornagraphy, human slavery, exploding buildings...?

All for what, the greed of potentially 2 billion people worldwide who want to save $50 ?

If you cannot afford it, you should not buy it.

Does your employer treat his investment into human resources in the same fashion? Look out 'cause you will be replace via outsourcing (discount) or externalisation (deep-discount).

and you get hit with a large fine (if I remember right, up to $100,000 per incident which would be per software per computer, so... 2 softwares on 100 computers would be 200 incidents).

Then how does that affect the bottom line?

You must practice due diligence to avoid legal liability, and when you get to the point where the offer seems too good to be true, then, you have to start asking yourself if it really is true.

However.... as companies oftentimes have different pricing structures in different countries, then there may be a different price in Russia then in the US, however, the licenses purchased in Russia may not be legal (due to EULA) to use outside of Russia.

Keyboards always work for me ...unless I spill soda on them. My mice, however, always become temperamental, glitchy, and usually end up unusable.

I guess I'll have to break down and get an optical mouse one of these days.

Check vendor ratings AND how many have rated it. Usually, only a couple bucks more to buy from a vendor with good rating from over a thousand customer responses than from a fly-by-night vendor with one glowing report from a customer (probably related to them).

Look for names you've heard of Newegg.com, TigerDirect.com, etc.

Yes they are inexpensive, and that's a bad thing?

I am currently writing to you on my 2nd E machine, yes, not only did I buy one, I liked it so well I bought another one later. I have had no trouble with upgrading or the day to day use of said E Machines, which is more than I can say of other big name pre-built machines I've had the misfortune of working with or on.

All things considered, I would most strongly recommend building one from scratch, but if you want Windows XP for it's functionality with so much of the software and hardware out there, it's hard to beat the bottom line of buying a PC that's already got it installed.

I would, especially for the price, not hesitate to recommend an E Machine to a friend or family member on a budget.

Your boss might want to look at Open Source. He'll have better stability and one hell of a lot more support with any version of Linux, and no worries about the legality of it all.

You can even buy hard drives with Lindows...er, Linspire pre-installed. I haven't had the chance to work with Linspire, but I'm told it's got as close a look and 'feel' to Windows plus the stability of Linux...

Hard combination to beat.

I'll keep this short. Your both thieves. Both incompetent & clueless. And you...you're exactly the incompeted clueless idiot that give the rest of us in this business, trying to make an honest living a bad *&^% name!

If you can't operate a business with integrity, get the hell out.

If your in Canada or the US your costing us jobs.
The BSA or CAAST, no doubt, would be interested in this kind of "transaction."

Neither of you deserve to be in business. Get lost.

Hope I've cleared up the "Not sure Why" part for you.

. . . but there's still something to be said for diplomacy.

Heh.

I disagree. I don't recognize "intellectual property" ethically because ideas are not property.

On the other hand, that doesn't mean that "pirating" software is legal. It isn't. As such, I don't recommend it. I also don't do it myself.

Then again, I don't have any particular reason to copy software illegally. I can get all the free software I like by using open source software. Ain't life grand?

Just because you don't recognise the concept of intellectual property, doesn't mean the world doesn't. If there were no intellectual property there would be no copyrights on music, art, literature and software.

If you ask us to respect your property rights, and you believe in the rule of law, then it follows you should respect the intellectual property/copyrights of others.

Now things can be taken too far. In Canada there have been lawsuits against dentists and doctors who play music from the radio in their offices - asking them to pay royalties. Thats a bit much, considering there is no direct benefit.

James

I'm fully aware that the law recognizes what is colloquially referred to as "intellectual property". I don't discount the ethicality of "intellectual property" on a whim, or because I want stuff for free. I discount it because [b]it's not ethical[/b]. Yes, it's the law, but it [b]should not be[/b]. There is no physical component to "intellectual property" that can be controlled: every time someone reads something that has been copyrighted, a copy has been made. The concept of "intellectual property" does a downright crappy job of accounting for that because it's conjuring a body of law from thin air. There is no empirical basis for ownership of ideas.

Your statement, "Just because you don't recognise the concept of intellectual property, doesn't mean the world doesn't," is nothing more than an appeal to popularity. The fallacy of believing the validity of something based on how many other people believe it is a very tempting mistake to make, but it's still a mistake. If nobody ever believed anything that conflicted with popular opinion, we wouldn't have modern science.

"If there were no intellectual property there would be no copyrights on music, art, literature and software," you said. My answer: Good! Copyrights and patents should be abolished.

I don't "believe in the rule of law," actually. I believe in the necessity of ethical action. I believe that any law that isn't ethical is invalid. The "rule of law" is, itself, of no value if it doesn't involve ethical laws. In fact, where unethical laws exist (for instance, legal slavery in the early nineteenth century), the "rule of law" actively does harm.

By confusing the issue of property rights, by artificially constraining the freedom of action of those who do not act unethically, and by creating additional unneeded complexity in the law that can be abused, "intellectual property" law brings harm to individuals on a daily basis, even if they don't realize it.

I don't pirate software. I don't trade MP3s online. I'm pretty much a law-abiding citizen, where intellectual property law is concerned (though not so much where speed limit laws are concerned). I observe the restrictions of these laws because there's a great big government hanging over my head, ready to enforce unjust laws. I also do so because it's easy to observe such laws: I just use free software almost exclusively, and though I could burn MP3s and movies to CD and DVD, I prefer the higher quality professionally-made CDs and DVDs and everything that comes with them (including lyrics, a second DVD full of extras, and so on).

So: You're wrong on every count. Your two main points were "Intellectual Property Is Good!" and "You (meaning me) Are Bad For Not Observing IP Law!"

1. "Intellectual property" is not good. The fact that it's enshrined in law doesn't make it so. The fact that lots of people think it's good doesn't make it so. The fact that major record labels and Microsoft make money hand over fist by selling duplicates of something that they hardly spent any money on directly doesn't make it so.

2. I observe copyright (and even patent) laws, probably more strictly than you do.

So, in summation: Stick a sock in it.

I hadn't addressed the other guy (sunplayer?) because his argument(s) where childish.

I understand what your saying. For the record, believe it or not, I have no illegal software on ANY machine I own. If a supplier doesn't give it to me, I BUY it from distribution.

Businesses support Businesses, simple as that.

From my business side, I do whatever I can to compete & save a buck legally, ethically & through honorable negotiations. I expect the same from anyone that works for (or) with me.

Clearly the poster(s) boss or whatever, was considering an illegal activity that has a direct effect on all of us in this business as well as his business and the employees that work there. In hindsite of course, my words where a little uhhh sharp, but WTF I have no patience for that stuff. (I don't suggest you or anyone else does either)

I should also mention I have very little tolerance for cracked software or serial # apps for the above reasons (and) the fact that the machines used in surfing arround for the cracks & serials are usually infected with spyware & viruses. I return the favour by asking that the system be re-imaged as necessary. No attempt is made to repair these systems. (Small pleasures)

The users learn quickly & I don't have to remove their firewall accounts. Life is good.

Because of legal issues and the typical security nightmare that cracked software represents, I too am rather intolerant of the use of cracked software in any circumstance where I have a say in the matter. While I'm convinced that there's no direct ethical issue with copying copyrighted software, there is most definitely a whole slew of indirect ethical issues there, largely involving the fact that using illegal copies exposes people to legal liability and tremendous unnecessary security risks (not to mention that cracked copies of proprietary closed-source programs are often spam servers and the like, which is a problem that affects everyone).

In other words: We seem to be in agreement about the importance of avoiding illegal use of proprietary software, but for entirely different reasons. I won't argue whether there are any moral issues involved, because morality is a function of one's philosophical convictions and, thus, unprovable. I am, however, generally prepared to argue the matter of ethicality. As far as I'm concerned, intellectual property law is unethical.

I don't even like the GPL, ethically, because it places legal restrictions on how one distributes software (specifically, it requires distribution of source code even if the distributor of the binary doesn't want to distribute the source). In fact, the GPL requires copyright law to function. The only distribution licenses that I find to be ethically appropriate are those that effectively replicate the status of works distributed in a world without copyright law. For an example, feel free to peruse the text of the CCD CopyWrite distribution license (located at http://ccd.apotheon.org for your convenience). Another example is the BSD license, though it is unfortunately limited to software source code.

I won't buy software from eastern europe. I buy my software from a company called AppCDs in the UK which matches these eastern countries here's the link:
www.appcds.com

really great software that works!