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Entering IT with expertise

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by sirmalcom

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Ok, I'm actually still a high school student that already manages a LAN that has about 20 comps and 2 Win2k3 servers that interact with several upstream Netware servers. I've read a lot of the MCSE books for ceritfication although have not had enough time to actually devote time to obtaining the certification at this time. Beyond this also work extensively with Linux and know enough programming in different languages to get by. Finally I had for a period of time a job creating AutoCAD blueprints as well as web development with straight HTML without any actual education than just what I was able to pick up myself.
So I feel that I definately I know enough for at least a Jr. Network Administrator job but I'm afraid I might not have enough proof of paper of this knowledge. Might there be a way of acquiring such a job without having to spending numerous hours for several weeks trying for my MSCE?

----Edit----
Wow, I never expected this much of a response and I must thank all of you. One item that would probably clear up many issues is that I do plan on going to college next year regardless of whether or not I get my MSCE. But of course college isn't cheap these days I would definately need a job to pay for some of the bills. On some of there other notes I've read is that I certainly know that there are absolutely major differences between a smallish LAN network and those of a large, corporate network. As a side note, I also use other microsoft server options (much to my own dismay as I support the Open Source 'movement' you could say) starting off with my implementation of an Active Directory and products such as SQL 2000, SMS, tested WSUS-Microsofts newest attempts at a Windows Update Server, along with Exchange 2003.
Once again I thank all of your responses. On a humourous note but just a bit of seriousness, anybody know of some opportunities in the San Francisco Bay Area?

116 replies

by dc_guy

Your communication skills are impressive. You write well for your age although there are several errors in your message--for an exercise see if you can find them. Still, I think your age and the fact that you don't even have a HS diploma yet are working against you.

Getting the MCSE might be your best tactic. For one thing, it is proof to prospective employers that you are disciplined, hard-working, and able to stick with something until it's finished. Those are things we all worry about when we are asked to consider hiring someone in their teens for an important job with a lot of responsibilities.

Lots of people use the MCSE to counterbalance other credentials and experience that they don't have. I have two friends without university degrees that have good IT jobs because of their certification. It's not your worst option by any means.

by oz_media

That my age and education would be a major deterrant in my success. I just went to his competition and found work as a sales manager at 16, managing vets who had been there years and were often three times my age and with a lot more experience.

I approached one company not knowing they had an advertised position for netadmin, and presented my drive to the owner. He hired me as the net admin with absolutely NO experience at all (I didn't even know how to configure antivirus), beating out the piles of resumes from certified applicants he had received. Drive.

Many in fact I would guess at close to half of successful entrepeneurs don't even have grade 12 yet alone college degrees.

HR does though, so you avoid HR and go for the big fish, they understand and value youth and drive far more than they understand paperwork.

by jmgarvin

I would highly suggest getting the MCSE and attending college to at least get an AA.

The industry is VERY hard to break into and you need to make sure that you can break into it. The days of having little or no education and an IT job are over. After the .com bubble burst many companies are pretty gun shy about hiring teenage admins that don't have the experience or maturity (reality or just percived) to administer their network/systems/whatever.

If you really want to get into IT find a good school, get the certs, and push those doors open!

by rayc

I would recommend doing a Cisco CCNA. Underlying everything else you will ever do on a LAN is the actual flow of data: ethernet, TCP/IP, etc. This certification will give you a thorough grounding in the actual movement and interaction of the data itself that you will find invaluable many many times in your career. It also separates you from the millions of MCSE's out there.
Also, just stick with it and you will succeed. Never stop learning.

by jbaker

The problem with the CCNA is that it is going in the same direction that the MCSE went several years ago. Yes, it is one of the harder certifications to achieve, and it proves that you can study, but the industry is beginning to get saturated with certified kids (no offense meant), with no experience.

Try to find an intern or volunteer position with a company, just to get your foot in the door. Tell the IT Manager or SysAdmin that you will work for really cheap (or even free), just to get some VERIFIABLE experience. Then move on from there.

by oz_media

But then it just lumps you in with the millions of CCNA's instead.

CCNA USED to be a very unique cert, now it's common as muck. All the MCSE's that have no job finding skills figured the CCNA would do the trick.

NOw they are all asking how to find work and what cert will do it for them.

Until a cert learns how to cold call companies and present your skills to those who AREN'T advertising positions, certs will always just be pieces of paper.

by rob.lay

I totally agree, I got my CCNA about a year ago and it's helped me no end. I doing the netadmin duties for a small company and could do the basic microsoft stuff, but didn't understand how it really worked. Doing my CCNA has given me the understanding of how networks work, I'm now working on my MCSE which doesn't give you the depth that the CCNA does, it just tells you how microsoft impliments it. I did my CCNA entirely off my own back and in my own time. I'm now working as a customer facing network engineer with a repidly expanding company with superb prospects, and my hard work in doing my CCNA on my own deffinately helped me get the job. The CCNA is a fantastic start and its still well respected.

by gr6120

I was fixing cars for 18 years and when I lost my job I went into IT with NO experience I have a small company with 4 guys working for me It is all about Drive and what you want also (bull)

by bonkyhead

Don't go into IT at all. You're ready to embark on a new life and career. If you'd like to have a "real" life go on to college and focus on getting your degree in something other than Computer Science. It's no harder to become a lawyer, a journalist, an actor, a writer, a pilot or any other more fulfilling vocation. Follow your heart, not just your mind or your wallet. Life is shorter than you could ever imagine and living it in a computer room can be thankless and boring. The problem is, once you've figured that out it's too late.

by timmycb

While it is true that computers have permeated virtually every aspect of life these days, they are by NO means the only way to make a living. Find and do something MEANINGFUL. Don't live paycheck to paycheck. Step above - while you have the chance...

by tick

Although try and convince an aspiring computer geek of such a thing. I was one myself. "I just love computers." Bah, what was I thinking? It's never too late to turn in another direction, you just have to play your cards right. You just have to be patient. Sometimes REALLY patient. It may take a couple years, but be on the lookout and it'll come. I'm expecting a change next year. Maybe I'll find out I'm doomed to a server room, though. SirMalcom, I wish you the best of luck at evading burnout should you continue to pursue this career path.

by lumbergh77

I don't mind working hard and getting good at something, but this field is so broad and there's so much information out there that it's impossible to know it all. I never feel like an expert and I'm not about to spend 30 hours a week outside of work getting a bunch of worthless certifications. The certifications expire and it never ends. I'm in my mid 20s, have a B.S. degree in computers, and while I'm still young enough, thinking of getting involved in another field where my tech experience will come in handy.

by admin17

Being in the same situation (high school student managing a LAN and developing web applications entering college), I would recommend diversifying your education in college. For instance, I am double majoring in Accounting and MIS. Accounting works closely with the IS/IT department already and has historically worked a lot with IS/IT. I would go so far as to say that the only reason that IT has gotten as far as it has so far in the modern world is that business has driven new technologies and implementations. Also, if you pursue a CPA, it will give you a seperate career path to follow if IT stays cold. Just my $0.02, but remember who eventually signs the check: the business who you serve to benefit through improved efficiency and increased profit.

by oz_media

researching target companies and writing a proposal of what you have done and how YOU will benefit THEIR company.

If you get to right contacts, avoid HR they are a waste of skin, and mine out your calls (yes you will need to cold call and present your ideas for a meeting with them to prove your value, you will find a higher paying job than you will by a cert.
Over time you will gain credibility and eventually write our own ticket, telling THEM how might will cost to for them to obtain your talents.

I've done it with FAR less experience, actually NONE at all. I got my MCNE long after I was employed as a Net Admin, and now dictate my own hours payscale.

I have three offers on the table right now, but am not sure if I want to go and work for someone else again.

If you can sell your worth, you don't need certs. If you can't, you will need to take the beaten path.

by ssobna

Question: Are you looking for a job out of HS or a career?
If a job, get the MCSE and start searching. Someone will need a low paid, no experience, no education flunky.
If a career is what you want, and I assume you're planning to be a productive member of society for at least the next 30 years, then get some more education.
Currently, with or without the MCSE, I wouldn't even give you an interview, and I'm not HR!.

by oz_media

You can't even begin telling me about finding work/career without certs.

I've proven so many guys like you wrong SO many times I couldn't begin to count. I used to actually tech a two week course on exactly how to do it, find your dream job, with a 98% success rate IN that two weeks.

The first step is to avoid people like yourself who call a HS educated employee a flunkie, and move on to those with progressive and opportunstic companies.

by ttosun

You have some great knowledge prior to going int this field. I would concentrate on MCSA, which you will achieve on the MCSE track, but I think will be more valuable to you, at least in the beginning. Companies are mostly looking for people who can administer existing networks before actually implementing a new network. This is where an MCSA will be more valuable in the begining. Good luck.

by hazeldad

Uhh, I'm afraid I have to agree somewhat with OZ. I'm a CNE...lot's of hands on, no job. Pal of mine, no experience whatsoever, barely ever took a case apart, got a job with ECC, assisting network operations and hardware support. He's been at it a year now and has a job offer with SHAPE in Belgium.He got his certs while employed.
There's more than one in a million, there's quite a few. Qualifications sometimes mean nothing. Frustrating for those that have taken the beaten path, yes, there are times I'd like to knock out his teeth, but that's envy isn't it?

by oz_media

At least you realize that drive andmotivation, coupled with some personal sales skills and proper prospecting actually pays off.

I can name dozens of people, mainly friend sthat are in the same boat. They have got NO certs, NO experience and some have really cool high paying IT jobs that fly them all over the USA, sorry, but their companies sell a lot of products to companies in the states, mainly wireless network design and config.

by angry_white_male

Most companies won't even give your resume a second thought if they don't see any kind of post-secondary education (let alone a lack of a HS diploma). The fact that you don't have any "real world" experience is another obstacle to overcome.

An MSCE is not a magic bullet or a golden pass that'll get you pass the HR folks and into a nice comfy cubicle next to a server room. The reality is that people with MSCE's are a dime-a-dozen and with the IT job market still depressed - there's plenty of people out of work with more experience than you (and willing to take lower paying job since their unemployment ran out and the bank's threatening to foreclose their house).

Go to college - learn about life and yourself a little bit, and start from the ground up doing B-shift helpdesk work and move your way up.

It doesn't take a lot to manage a 2 server, 20 client network. In fact it's ridiculously easy - and most companies with that kind of setup usually don't have a full-time IT person - but rely on an on-call person/company - or someone in-house who's somewhat knowledgeable in computers. In the real world - most network admin's are dealing with 100's of users and dozens of servers (if not more) spread out in multiple locations, in addition to the LAN/WAN infrastructure that can stretch across the globe. Don't forget that you'll be working long days (I average 50 hrs a week) and be on call 24/7 for when something goes wrong at 3:30 AM while you're on vacation.

I admire your ambition and you seem like you have your compass pointed in the right direction... but finish HS first, do something meaningful for the next 4-6 years afterwards (college, military, etc...), and start your climb up the ladder.

A fresh pimply faced HS grad nailing a network admin job isn't unheard of - but it's certainly the exception to the rule. If it weren't for Bachelor's degree, I wouldn't be working the jobs I have been in recent years, nor making the $$$ that I am now.

by adolphinfan54

I have to agree totally with getting a degree first. Anyone can be trained within a couple of weeks to manage a small to mid-sized network. Learning how to develop and implement technology strategies is something that can only be learned in a classroom setting and then applied in real life. After college, get your CISSP or another Cisco certification, preferably in security. Understanding Novell, Linux, Oracle, SAP and other technologies is also important. The more well rounded your background, the easier it is to get the big job, with big pay.

by justaperson

College first is the answer. Almost every place I have worked required some level of college degree to get in the door in the first place. Most colleges offer work study, where you can get technology experience while getting your degree.

by shraven

I have to thumb my nose at this advice. I routinely ask network support people why they bother with college. I infact have a degree (in accounting!) but made the jump cold and have learned as I went. Computer systems change so fast by the time you leave college, what you learned will be history. Get in, get some experience. Education is important and not something you should ignore, but in IT administration experience is king. If you're ready to contribute now, then start doing so. By the time you leave college (or the time your friends are finishing) you'll already have 5 years on the job experience. Supplement this with certification or a degree to demonstrate on paper that you are what you claim (experience is easy to fake on a resume and certs help verify your claims). And as a manager I'm always picking experience over paper degrees or certifications when it comes to hiring.

by angry_white_male

Doesn't matter what you went to college for. That you went to college and got your degree shows me the following:

1. That you're smart enough to actually be accepted into a 4-year school - shows that you are literate, can form complete sentences, learned how to research, developed analytical skills, etc.
2. That you are able to complete long-term goals.
3. That you did some "growing up" - rather than living with mom and dad til your late 20's.
4. That you were able to co-exist in a diverse environment (not just racial/ethnic - but diverse thinking as you're going to be dealing with the entire spectrum in IT).
5. That you can meet deadlines.

Experience alone isn't everything - you need to look at the complete person when basing your hiring decisions. Because most network admin jobs require someone with multiple talents and the ability to juggle many tasks at once - you need someone who's well-rounded. Putting a corporate network in the hands of someone who isn't old enough to drink yet is a very risky proposition. Someone that young and inexperienced may do well as a first level tech support rep for a single product reading off idiot cards, or upgrading PC's at CompUSA - but not running an entire network.

Out of college - do some time as a helpdesk tech for a sizeable company - learn the systems, learn the job. One doesn't learn how to be a network admin just by studying for it - or dinking around in a classroom lab.

Bottom line - when looking for a network admin, resumes for those who haven't completed their 4 yr degree get trashed.

by rdemarco

With advice like that you'll never get past middle management. More importantly, neither will the kid you're giving the advice to. You may be happy languishing in middle mgt, but he may not. You don't go to college to learn how to manage LAN/WAN. Just read the post from Angry_White_Male.

Cheers,

by oz_media

There are just as many unemployed college grads as unemployed untrained people, if not far more.

People without the certs are generally those with the drive and motivation to approach teh right people in the company and sell themselves and their ideas, as a great deal of business owners have no formal education either, they respect this and it energizes them.

There are also those with no social skills, textbook geeks, and they feelk that certs are the only way to find a career because that's the only way THEY know how to do it.

A good sales rep is never inemployed, good techs ae pften unemployed.

A good sales rep will TAKE the IT job from the guy WITH the certs regrardless of his experience or training. I did it, I've taught other people how to do it very sucecssfully. THe other techs, well...still unemployed I suppose.

Also, getting a cert locks in your salary, 'driving' your career doesn't. Without certs, you write your own ticket, to those who say it's impossible, you are 100% correct, you will never be able to do it and will only prove your own personal limitations correct.

To those who believe the CAN, you are 100% right, you WILL.

Drive and motivation beats training everytime, hands down.

by angry_white_male

Consider this...

Given how tight the domestic IT job market is in the US - with corporate downsizing and offshoring and all that bad stuff... should you find yourself suddenly unemployed - what's your plan B? If all you know is IT - from high school, well into your 30's, 40's or (even worse) 50's - and you have had no education, training or experience anywhere else - you're screwed.

With no college degree and little hope of landing a new IT job that'll pay you good enough keep your house out of foreclosure... well, best of luck to ya.

Always have a plan B. When I got laid off from a well-known copier maker a few years ago I was out for nearly 7 months. Got by on severance pay, unemployment and some short-term contract work. Only reason why I got my job was because of networking and politician father-in-law with friends in high places. I tell ya - it's tough out there.

I can also assure you that regardless of my "connection" - if I had no college degree, I'd have no job. Period.

by frank askins

I don't know what area you live in, but numerous companies and especially the Federal government have intern programs for students.

If you can't find a paying job to build your resume, look for local business/agencies and volunteer your services as an admin.

In addition to gaining experience, you are reflecting community involvement.

by fgarvin

Most Federal Government Intern Programs, Especially IT positions, require you to be either In College or already finished with a degree. But once you get in, you are fairly well set for life. IT Positions in the government are a premium and are fast tracked. Imagine being 24 years old and pulling in 50 Grand a year? Thats an extreme possibility, plus the experiance you will get is pretty much state of the art and well looked upon in the private sector.

Good Luck.

by bill.affeldt

Send a letter of interest to local businesses and ask if you can intern at a nominal fee or for free. Volunteer orgs always need help. Local Red Cross etc.

Also get in touch with you local chapter of SCORE
(Service Core Of Retired Executives). The help fledgling businesses and may be able to point you to someone who needs inexpensve help and can be a great resume reference.

by humphred

What kind of track record can you provide to a prospective employer, before he/she entrusts their network operations to you?
I'd try for internships first, and get your feet wet in the 'real' world. You might be surprised at how things are done outside of HS.
Don't look for shortcuts. Look at your resume.

by les.kirk

Most companies today, regardless of size, require some type of post HS education. If you plan on making any "real" money in the IT Industry, then you may want to consider finishing HS and getting at least an AS degree so you can get your foot in the door.

Granted, there are many companies out there that may give you a shot, but the odds are strongly against you and the money you would make is nothing but dribble compared to the money could make with that degree.

Most of us that have been in this Industry for many years can tell you that the job market sucks. Finding a good paying job even with a degree and experience under your belt is VERY hard to do.

If you want a good job, good money, and respect for what you do, get that degree and pay your dues.

The problem with youth today is that they want everything NOW without having to earn it. I have worked with many college grads with Masters Degrees in Computer Science who could not think outside the box if their life depended on it.

Reading a book, getting a certification, or obtaining a degree is one thing, but learning how the "real" world works comes only from experience. You will find that the only way to be able to succeed is to think outside the box in "real" world situations and the only way to really learn this skill is by paying your dues.

by cberding

It's great that you're in HS and know what you want to do. Don't let this stop you from getting a degree. Like it or not, it's needed in a lot of companies if you want to advance quickly. Your best bet--business. This way, if you don't like working for someone else, you have the tools to work for yourself. Otherwise, you pay dearly learning those lessons on your own.

Make sure to network with people in your area. Network as in, don't just ask them for favors, ask them what you could do for them, even if it's just passing along an e-mail about a cool new product, security issue, etc. You will need a lot of help throughout life, so it never hurts to make a few friends to help things along. Remember, they don't all have to be net admins...meet the DBAs, project managers, etc. You never know who might lead you to the next challenge.

Good luck!

by dneal

I am 24 and already have 6 years of experience in IT and just resently became MIS Manager of a local State facility. I knew for a long time growing up that IT is where I wanted to go so I started networking with others in the field while in my junior and senior years in HS. I was able to get one to agree to hire me right after graduation for just over minimum wage. I worked with this company for 3 1/2 years doing everything from the basics of software troubleshooting to installing and configuring entire networks. While doing so I was also attending a local technical college not for a microcomputer degree but for a programming degree and at the end of 3 1/2 years I graduated with 2 AS degrees. Now with these degrees and 3 1/2 years experience I thought I was set to get out of my current job and start making some real money. Well after a few months of searching was able to be hired on first as a IT Tech, then promoted to Programmer Analyst and now to MIS Manager in just 3 years with the company. Granted it sounds like I've had it easy but the studying and HANDS ON in my first IT job is what has made all the difference in the world with my second job. Anyone can read a book and pass a test but the hands on experience is what shines in a resume.

by raemelyn

I am impressed with your determination and your focus. I am a 40-something mom who returned to school after 20 years to obtain my degree after finding that no matter how much talent I thought I had, that "piece of paper" and certs became the keys for me that opened more doors and gave me more choices. I also realized in school that I didn't know it all..hehe I encourage you to find an internship, finish h.s., get your degree and certs and then really kick butt. As long as you are doing what you love, the money will follow..trust me! Good luck.

by it-is manager

I agree with the 40 something mom and the Angry White guy. You need a good foundation - you want to spend hours at a job, but not hours for a couple weeks studying for an MCSE that could benefit you? Get your cert, finish school and consider college, the more knowledge you have in both school and real world the better. You might want to start aiming a bit lower - like as a junior tech instead of a junior administrator. You have time to work your way up. Administrators have to sometimes make serious decisions, and they usually do it based on experience - something your lacking in right now. When the IT industry changes and it will, I have been in it for 12 years - you will appreciate the degree and certs you have later. Good luck.

by vwbob

College, even a 2-year Tech School degree, will greatly increase your chances of landing a good position with good pay. If you can land a part-time IT job to help pay for it, so much the better! Internships, most often arranged through your school, can provide you with valuable real-world experience (and school credit) while providing your skills to a business without hitting their budget.

Look into local non-profit agencies! Non-profits need to spend most of their budgets on their programs, don't tend to be able to support full-time IT people, yet have growing IT needs. Many would jump at the opportunity to have a Network Administrator/Help Desk/Computer Repair Technician on their staff as an Intern!

by wkim1

I graduated from high school in 2002 and started the day I walked out of high school working for the school district full time in a paid internship. Although I had a good job I knew that I didn?t want to make dingy pay the rest of my life. So I decided to go to school and get my certs (MCSE, CCNA, A+, Security+), and even though I went and got them, before I got them I had three job prospects with my money at least doubling. Once you get out there and start working even a little, PEOPLE NOTICE YOU. Make yourself marketable by showing that you are a hard worker, reliable and dependable. Bosses love that and they love to talk about it. So just keep trying and don?t be scared to start small because in a very short amount of time you can and will grow.

by bcarilli

I completely agree that education is the key to open all doors for you. However, it's not always what you know, but who you know. You may want to network yourself, introduce yourself to people and let them know what your capable of. I'm a prime example; I just turned 24 and I?m a Network Systems Engineer, responsible for 12 servers and over 1400 end users both local and remote. I started by doing work on a neighbors systems, and he introduced me to a gentleman who needed help on his PC, but also works for the company at which I am employed today. If you can impress the right person and get your foot in the door, add the right education and the possibilities are endless.

by gunnaf

I have not read all the replies, so if I am duplicating any information I apologize. In my opinion, the days of being hired as Admins right out of high school are gone, and I don't see them coming back any time soon. You may have the knowledge and ability, but so does 50 other people that more experience than you do.

Also, running and administerring a LAN is a lot different than a corporate network. I found that out when I was in a similiar situation as you. At 16 I admin'd a small network of computers for the local Staples Copy Center, basically ran their electronics dept, and knew I could get certifications with some money but yet no one wanted me even for SupportCenter based on my no experience.

So instead I got my foot in the door doing data entry for the third largest business credit card company in the US. I proved to them my ambition and drive, and they PAID for my schooling so I could be promoted to Webmaster. Now I'm looking into bigger and better things within the company (Networking area).

In short (and I do apologize for the rambling), any stories you hear about getting a admin job or anything big like that right out of HS is either lieing, or back in the big tech boom about 10 years ago. My advice to you would be to continue learning, try getting your foot in the door of an office environment company, and then prove to them you have the drive.

Or, if you are still determined to get a network admin job, look into smaller companies. Small, local companies have more leeway and flexibility to hire people based on "good gut feelings" about someone, and often times you will not have the competition from so many more experienced candidates.

Good luck to you though, I hope the best.
Wes

by rczyzewski

It should take you more than a few weeks to work towards MCSE. I recommend A+, Network+, and MCSA to start out. Post-secondary education is a must. A 4 year degree may not get you the kind of job you are looking for now, but 20 years from now it will mean the diffence of a $40K or a $140K job.

by gjarreau

I have an MCSE but didn't go to collage, and all I get are dead end jobs. Most people will tell you in the interview that an MCSE is a minimum certification for THEIR company. They probably don't know crap themselves, but they have a collage degree and look down on you anyway. It makes them feel good, I guess. Anyway, go to collage if you can afford to, and if you can't get a grant, loan, or rob a bank (just kidding), and go to collage anyway.

by roho

I have never really believed in all these certifications that software companies come up with. You have to spend a lot of time (and money) getting them and then they change the OS.

I think there is far more value in the experience and problem solving skills than in showing that someone was able to pass an exam. In every day practice you have to solve real world problems and are not consistently trying to figure out which of the four given answers is correct.

I have seen people with impressive certifications that could not solve the simplest problems.

When looking for a job with a company that asks for certification I just skip it and look for another one.

by avid

get at least your mcp. then skip the rest. there are tons of certified idiots in IT, but an mcp will get your foot in the door. your age will be a handicap only if you act like you know everything. getting at least one certification will show that you do not have a know it all attitude. prove your knowledge by your work and your wisdom by learning from others.. none of us is as smart as all of us. find your niche. i do think that college is a complete waste of time if you intend to actually work in IT. on the other hand if you want to manage others in IT, then it may be helpfull.. i personally never attended college. i joined the military. it is a great way to learn management skills...

by wisdomrocks

Network administration requires maturity that a H.S. student does not have. You must be skilled in customer service because you will deal with all levels of staff and you will have to manage user's expectations. You must have proven leadership skills which is acquired by starting from the ground up. I supervise the PC Support staff in a hospital that has 2000 computers and 150 servers of varying operating systems. We promote from the help desk and networking promotes from PC Support. If you are as good as you say you are, you won't be at the help desk for long. Be sure to take some english courses because yours is not that good. Technical skill is only part of the job. And that MCSE will get you in the door faster than without it.

by rmihalko

Me: 10 years in marine corps, last five as network admin for my squadron 50 486PC's, thick net lan with Banyan Vines(best NOS on planet)servers.
1 year with airline(they went bankrupt, might have heard of them, TWA) Network support shop, I translated between the NOC Mainframe/Midrange folks and the LAN/Network Group.

3 years for Bank, 120 mix Banyan/Micro-jun(soft) servers 3500 user across 7 states.

3 years with Commercial Real Estate company, 20 servers(Linux/Microjunk Mix) 250 users, 5 states(75 percent of users mobile).

Salary range across those years 25k low 59k High.

worked thru Y2k As well.

Education level during above timeframe: High School Diploma, No certifications, just experience all self taught.

Current: Security Officer Working overnights while I finish Bachelors degree in IT focus on network admin. Left IT field 18 months ago because was tired of 80+ hours a week, on-call 24-7.

I am pursuing the degree up to masters level and hope to teach secondary or corporate which ever I decide to do.

Advice: work work work FIRST, Paper degrees and cerifications are check marks on your resume to get you thru the piles o resume's.

Best Skill to Develop: Interviewing, Phone and In Person casual or business. I have gotton most of my jobs by either helping someone at a Worst Buy Store and a subsequent converstation, more so than cold applying, but have done both.
Being able to communicate effectivly and concisely is about 80 percent of the battle in the IT field, both getting the job and keeping it.

Personal preference for you: after working 13 years beta testing microsoft junk, learn to see the Network beyond the LAN server and Client PC. Most involve much more, Learn about mainframe, Midrange, and UNIX. Learn about the WEB and how it works for companies. Learn Networking old and new, token ring, Ethernet, evertthing you can. Learn about remote access, learn to listen to the users, help them help you.
All this will help open your eyes a bit and help remove the focus on microjunk and its monopoly on the world.

Hope this helps some,

by jpbergeron

While everyone is looking for the fast track, an MCSE will help you land a job, but an education will help you in a career. I will guarantee that prospective employers will hire the candidate with the MSCE and college degree over the mcse only. As a Director in IT, I have seen time and again, those with a college degree get there quicker then those without.

Get an education!

by kaox

hello ppl, i have the same problem as malcolm here, although at a higher level. i am have a B.E. in Biomedical Engg from Mumbai University, INDIA. i have a year's experience as a technical journalist with Network Computing, India. after that i have 6 months' experience as a Maiframes developer in IDMS/R & ADOS. although my final goal is to get into networks' administration, for the time being i have taken up a job as tech support adviser with a call-center. wot wud u ppl advise i do, continue with the tech support job for now and slowly work my way up the ranks or get a CCNA /MCSE, in InfoSec and apply bigtime.

thx for ur patience,
Kaox

by jbaker

In many people's eyes (mine included), certs do not prove anything except that you can take a test. Experience and contacts are much more valuable. And do whatever is necessary to get a college degree. Even if the degree is liberal arts or underwater basket weaving, it proves that you can stick to it and do the job. If an employer feels that a cert is required for the job, they can usually be negotiated into paying for it, and allowing you to earn it on their time. Find an intern or parttime job where you can learn from other more experienced professionals....

I was told early on in my career, it is not how much you know, it is that you know where to look to find the things that you do not know....

by rrosca

I'm not sure if anyone already mentioned it but one of the best way for you to go about this is to get an internship.

I know they tend to be non-paying to low-paying jobs but if you do a good job you will have the inside track on a full time position with that company.

I value college education but not for a computer admin. I think learning how to communicate, write well and go through four years of growing up away from home to be beneficial but they will not make you a superior IT admininistrator. I actually have my degree in philosophy and can do my IT job just fine :)

Certfications are fine and useful but nothing beats experience. You have experience, now you just have to have it in the proper context - the work arena.

by chrystoph

An internship is a great way to go about your goal, but they are usually lookign for college experience.

If you can afford it, through whatever means, take enough schooling to show a commitment to IT work, then try to get an internship or two.

As several folks here have said, the glory days for It are past. It does still happen that people get the admin position straight out of high school, but it is not the kind of job that most people want to keep long term.

"I want someone that can work miracles, but I want to pay for a janitor...."

by coremantle

The MCSA is the Jr admin certifiaction. Fewer tests required than the than the MCSE. Its basic server workstaion and the basics of AD, DNS , DHCP etc...

by chuck_it

You have done well. Please keep in mind that you are not the only one that is doing well. There are 100,000 other kids that are 16 and doing the same thing that you are doing.
? Continue to read, learn and be mentored.
? Discipline yourself and focus on where you want to grow.
? Build your intellectual and experiential capital. This is the capital you will use to enter bigger and more rewarding jobs. While you are at it sharpen your sales skills. Getting others to let you do what you want to do while they pay you for it requires sales skills.
? Know what you know and know what you don?t know. This will help you build confidence in your skill-set and yourself.
? For a 16 year old you are scattered all over the IT landscape, with Win2k3, Netware, AutoCAD, Linux, HTML and programming in different languages. It looks like you are jumping from one thing that will hold your interest you to another. What happens when one of these no longer holds your interest? Can you still commit to supporting it?
? Small companies and people with networks in their homes all need support. All of them are looking for a bargain price. Don?t be afraid to work for a dozen people instead of just one. If one of them lets you go you will still have 11 others to keep you busy. It will also allow you to see how many companies operate, rather than just one. This is how you build your experiential capital.
? Set short term and long term goals. Write them down and review them frequently. Daily, Weekly, Monthly and Yearly. Celebrate when you achieve each of your goals.
? Ask for more money that you think you are worth. A doctor friend told me once, ?If the person doesn?t gasp when you tell them the price, you have set your price to low?.
? All of this will get you employed, get you experience and give you some IT education. It will not get you maturity or all of the education that you will need. You must go to college. Those other 100,000 kids are going to college and in a few years you will all be competing for the next level of employment.
? You are not always going to be a tech. If you are any good, companies will want you to manage others. If you are not any good you will have to find another type of occupation. If you are really good you may only have 2 to 5 years of actual hands on technical work before you are managing others and out of the day to day hands on technical work. You prepare for this day in college. College tells an employer that you have the maturity to stick to a project until it is completed.
? Your school probably has a mentor program where you can go work with a company for a few hours a week and get credit for it. Work with your school to find an IT mentor. If your school doesn?t have anyone for IT mentoring find a network support company yourself and talk them into being your mentor. Make sure you get them approved by your school.
I?ve owned my own computer consulting company for 21 years and have mentored some of the most gifted high school kids in the country. Prepare yourself to compete.

by lkarnis

SirMalcom

Stay in school. If you have no cert & no degree, you'll be like 5million other IT wanna-be's out there. With an MCSE cert, you'll now be like 500,000 past & present MCSEs. Go to college and get a degree/diploma in computing and/or engineering. Suddenly the numbers start to look much more favorable.

Ultimately, it only matters what you can do. A cert is simply a vendors independent verification of what you can do. A degree is indication that you are willing to invest in yourself, and prove you can stick with a task for years (to graduate).

If you jump straight into the working world with no cert & no degree, you will PROBABLY be stuck in low end menial IT jobs. High risk of layoff, low chance of advancement.

Invest in yourself first... go to school.

L Karnis

by nmeyer

Describe your experiences - including the duration if it's reasonably long (1 year+) Admin is more about problem solving and event/project management. You need to demonstrate those skills. Did you do any upgrades? Patches/hotfixes? What sorts of problems did you address and overcome? Describe those sorts of things. Also - take the time to get the MCSE. MS certifications aren't worth a whole lot in my world - but it shows that you took the time to study and pass the tests. The combination of a cert and experience might be more compelling than either alone.

by beachy

I am the Director of a County IT Department. Each employer is different, but I will give you my personal perpective. I have both a bachelor's degree and Microsoft certification, so I speak from both sides of the situation.

I've hired people with the certifications, only to find out that they do not cut it in the real PRODUCTION world. They are only text book people. I've hired people with no degree and they've turned out to be excellent workers and the best employees I've ever had. I've also hired people with degrees in other areas and found out that they had the knack for computers.

My advice to you is enroll in college courses because even if your first job does not require it, it will show that you have drive and the degree can get you further in your career field. You can try either a Co-op position (this worked extremely well for me) or work study at your college of choice. If neither of these appeal to you, target the smaller employers or local government. They do not pay as much, but they are more likely to hire without the college degree or IT certifications.

Skip the large corporations until you've got some experience under your belt. Work on your resume. Put DETAILS in it, not general info. Get killer recommendations from your high school principal, teachers and other people in the industry. This really works!

Also you might try the old tried and true networking tactic.

Just remember whatever you do, dress professionally (even if the job doesn't require it), act mature and prfessional, get people to review your resume for content, be positive and get out and present yourself. If you get a negative answer or noncommital answer, ask for advice from the person or their reasoning. This will help you in the long run.

Hope this helps! Good luck!

by nbpqsecofr

I was once in this boat myself, almost 10 years ago. I was in High School, working for a Fulfillment center. They had advertised an opportunity for entry level programmers where they do the in house training, you get to be a programmer. So I took the leap and tried out for the program. I took the 2 exams, one of them being a Programmer's Aptitude Battery. About 10 days later, I was called in to my supervisors office. She told me that I didn't make the program, but they were extremely impressed with my potential. She also told me that I had scored in the top 10 on the exam, and some of the other test takers has Bachelor's in Computer Science. Needless to say, I'm no longer with that company, but that comes along more in a few.

Flash ahead to my first term at a private Business College. I saw a job posting on the campus TV network about an internship for programmers. I figure this would be a good opportunity, considering my major is Computer Programming. I send a resume, and the IT Director invites me in to speak with him. We sit down, he starts explaining the vision and direction of things, and offers me the job on the spot. Without hesitation, I accept the position. And now, almost 7 years later, I am a Sys Admin with the same company.

OK, so I skipped the certification part. I acquired my first certification about 1 year ago. My IBM Certification as an iSeries System Administrator. I don't place a lot of weight in certifications personally. I've seen some people who have MCSE certification, but don't have the skills to back it up. Don't make that mistake.

I tell you that story for a couple of reasons:
1. Don't be discouraged at this point. I had a long road to get to where I am right now
2. You are just beginning the road. You should set some goals for where you want to go in the IT field, and use certifications and education as stepping stones.
3. Work hard and you will succeed in the field.

by joannadeverteuil

i find it challenging to secure a better IT job especially in Trinidad and Tobago, even though I too have experienced with Windows 2000 and AS400...I am getting frustrated! any clues?

by jamesgoerke

This is were I got nearly all my first IT Experiences. I was able to get a student technician job for two years while in high school and that allowed me to work with a duel platform 700+ LAN/WAN even before I graduated. It looked impressive to future employers to have two years work experience before I graduated. As I understand it, many school districts have student computer technicians and if you ask around im sure you can find something. I subsequently was offered a job working for the whole district and not just my high school when I graduated which was a raise and a promotion. So ask around. Good Luck.

James

by dmuth

I am in total agreement with the parent poster. An MCSE is useful for maybe a couple of years, and only within a very narrow field. Plus, it is dependent on Microsoft's continued existance as a company. If Microsoft should lose market share to Linux or OS/X, this makes your MCSE worth less.

On the other hand, if you attend a 4-year college, you'll get 4 years of experience with different types of technologies, and you may find other things you're good at, as well as meet all sorts of people in the industry. More importantly, you'll have a Bachelor's degree which will last the rest of your life and be recognized by any prospective employer FAR more than an MCSE (or any other certificaiton) will.

-- Doug

by jrats_revenge

I have been in the IT Field for 10 years now. I personally started at a small computer shop as a "gopher". My job was to go get the parts from our parts vendor. My real job at the time was a Disc Jockey and sound guy at a local night club. I didn't even own a computer at that time. Having that tinkering knowledge of "how things work" as it pertained to sound equipment really helped. I moved from "gopher" to computer tech in about 2 weeks of working with the PC shop. Main skills where construction, troubleshooting and repair. By the time I left that company (5.5 years)I had become the main technician there with all the hardware skills and networking skills to get me to my current position. Currently, I work as a network administrator for a real estate company. (9 W2k3 servers across a WAN, 6 remote offices and about 400 end users)My duties also include System support and infrastructure support and Helpdesk for those end users on 3 specialized real estate programs we use plus MS office, all Windows OS, etc. My point is I have made a great living doing what I do and I have been able to mold this talent from the humbled begining as that "gopher"... without any certifications. Now with that said, I do believe in the education and the certs do add marketability to your resume, no question. But practical hands on knowledge is as important if not more important than that cert. I have seen many book knowledge grads with the ever important MCSE cert come to the workplace and not know what to do with the system in place because it wasn't the classic textbook example. I know that my case isn't the norm. Education is important but if you can find someplace that will help you hone your current networking knowledge while making your certification goals (whatever ones you decide) is a good way to go. Remember this... Certifications are not cheap and you will need that cash to take classes. Anyway, I hope that adds to the confusion already posted here!! GOOD LUCK!

by matthew22

I spent almost 3 1/2 years at a Catholic seminary -- there was quite a range of people there (from all over the US -- even other countries) and many had been to college. All agreed that they never "really had to study until they came here." It is true that the classes were very difficult and required much study, and we weren't given the majority of each day for the academic part of our formation.

What would the average prospective employer think about that on a resume? Talk about character and rounding out the whole man! :) We learned logic, history, literature, how to think, human nature, you name it. Basically an excellent liberal arts degree.

Of course, the seminary doesn't give out "degrees" - either you have a vocation and you're ordained a priest, or you leave without becoming a priest (as in my case).

Matthew

by dc_guy

Not having a degree, as has been pointed out, is a big minus on your resume. So to say that your 3 1/2 years in a seminary is as valuable as someone else's 3 1/2 years at USC isn't really saying much. A degree tells people that you finish what you start, that you are dependable. I would guess that if you had actually completed the seminary course and "graduated" to the priesthood, a good number of people would have counted that the same as a B.A. I would.

There's a name for people with 3.5 years of college: "high school graduates."

by sceeble

Although I agree that college is necessary, what AWM has to offer here is both wrong AND true.

AWM, three and a half of your five points are wrong, and if you use them for hiring criteria, you are either getting lucky or getting crappy employees.

1. College and a decent level of literacy are hardly co-dependent. Research skills I?ll give you, but I wouldn't use a degree as a means to confirm literacy.
2. Many go to college because they want to avoid the real world for as long as possible. Graduating is often just a matter of showing up. I would take someone with good reasons for leaving school over another with bad reasons for staying. I wouldn't use a college degree as a means to confirm focus and determination.
3. Scads of kids live with the 'rents during college... growing up takes place after college.
4. I'll give you diversity, although college is often the last place to find intellectual diversity.
5. Deadlines, ok, that's true.

Skills are easy. Most of us, if we are any good, learn as we go. We use very little of what we learned in school. Character is key. Integrity. Creativity. Flexibility. Dedication.

AWM is completely correct on this account...
"resumes for those who haven't completed their 4 yr degree get trashed"

Ignorant, tragic, and true, you will only get so far without that rag hanging on the wall. It is your TICKET TO THE DANCE, without which you will not get past the coat check room.

by angry_white_male

1. Illiterate people won't get very far in college. Good luck passing the SAT (especially now with the new essay component) or getting grades in high school decent enough for even the most liberal college admissions officer to put you on the standby list. Even the "third tier" state college (where strangely enough my wife works as an admissions officer) I went away to presented enough challenges to me that I certainly wasn't on the dean's list every semester.

2. That's debateable... for many, college is the gateway to the "real world".

3. I left home when I was 18 to go to school and never looked back. So obviously someone else's mileage may vary. But even if you live with the folks and commute to school - the stakes are higher (financially). Screw up in school and someone's stuck paying for it.

4. College has a good cross-section of people. I don't mean intellectually - but just different personalities that run the whole spectrum. Some people came to the school on a sports scholarship, could care less about liberal arts however are technically proficient and will never call the helpdesk, others can be the president of the local Mensa chapter and wouldn't know how to use a computer if their life depended on it.

5. Yup.

by sceeble

I guess that literacy has different definitions to all of us. I've seen too many college educated workers out there to believe that a person can't slide through college without being able to write in complete sentences, or know the difference between too, to, and two (or how to pronounce "nuclear").

Anyway, I think you are missing the point. Do you really believe that a degree somehow assures you of anything in an employee?

I think in the past 20 to 30 years, hiring and advancement have been far too dependent upon the level of formal education. Except in very specialized areas, a college degree is not a guarantee, for the employer or the employee.

None the less, it is necessary... but only because we have made it so.

by justjoel99

A college professor once told me that there are three ways that HR and hiring managers evaluate the abilities of candidates. They are:

1. Education
2. Certification
3. Experience

Obviously, depending on the position, more weight can be given to one of the criteria (e.g., an entry-level admin job may overlolok education or experience, but a potential CIO had better have a Master's degree and several years of experience under his or her belt).

The caveat is that some larger companies use certifications as a screening tool for weeding out candidates for certain positions. If you don't have the cert, they don't even bother to call you for an interview. Would you be willing to just toss out the possibility for working for those companies simply because you didn't want to take the time to get the certification?

Bottom line is, the best resume is one that has all three of these criteria; having two is better than one, and one is better than none.

by gregdc

Your prof was right. Education, Cert's, and Experience are looked at by HR when they are filtering the hundreds of resumes they get for any one job opening.

But the hiring manager is really looking for one thing, accomplishments. What did the person do with those three factors for their employer?

This is why 98%+ of resumes fail to get interviews. They say a lot about where they work, what tech they used, maybe what kinds of project they worked on. But rarely what did the applicate accomplish for the company. How did they save them time/money/people or how did they increase profits/delivery/customer-satisfaction?

As a recruiter I read these every day, and over and over again I hear frustrated hiring managers say that all the resumes boil down to the same thing. Same technology, experience, education, and Cerfifications. I interview people and find out what they accomplished in those 3 years as a Network manager. That is what get my people interviews!

by oz_media

I've proven you wrong personally twice now.

People who I have helped, have proven you wrong numerous times.

How many of todays employers actually have related college degrees? VERY few. It's just the people HR hire that need this crap, because HR is a pathetic job and most HR departments wouldn't know hiring potential from a hole in the ground. So why even talk to HR, cut out the middle man, don't wait for someone to advertise a job, just call the owner of teh company you want to work for. Owner not available, get a a name and call back.

Think it can't be done? You're right, YOU'LL fail for sure, now step aside and let the guy who says it can't be doen take that position.

by angry_white_male

Good luck getting to the owner, CEO or whoever. Here - the CEO's secretary will just transfer the call down to HR, forward the letter/e-mail to HR, etc. It's not the CEO's job to hire someone - that's why we have an HR department and department managers.

Sure - there are people who've done it, but they're the exception to the rule.

by oz_media

IN fact that's one of the steps in finding work. Get the owner to 'transfer' your call to HR DIRECTLY if necessary, HR then notices your application and pays attention to your call.

But for every ONE company such as yours that is caught up in middle management, there are 100 that aren't, THEY are the ones who hire the movers and shakers.

by black_eyed_pea

Angry White Male...you nailed it! That is the best post I have read in quite a long time. I received my bachelors in Family and Human Development a decade ago and have never applied that degree (except, it makes me understand the psychology of users better).

My dad and the fact that I was employed part-time in computer positions for my entire degree convinced me to pursue a masters in information systems. I have never regretted that decision and I still have no certifications to my name. Nevertheless, I have no gaps in my IT employment record. That's six years part time and five years full time experience in both private, academic, and federal government organizations.

Experience is crucial and a college degree has given me the edge over other candidates in every position. I also worked two internships and networked with others to get where I am now. Although, certifications can still benefit and challenge an IT pro, they are not necessary for a long, successful career. I'm just now beginning work on a couple of certifications, but I don't feel rushed to get them.

by zentross

Experience, networking, and a degree in varying combinations help, but only if you are noticed.

Have you given any thought toward what industry you would really want to work with? Each has its own varying needs and requirements. It sounds like you can learn anything IT given time, because you've demonstrated both a strong interest and ambition.

What will make you stand out is knowing the industry and having a degree/certificate that demonstrates that you know at least the fundamentals of the industry's core buisness.

Accounting, buisness, or economics are great choices in my opinion because they balance well against the technical grounding against IT. If you want to work in a research lab though, you may want to consider a biological, chemical, or physical reference of study in order to meet the unique IT needs of these clients.

Hope this helps.

BTW, you can never go wrong with psychology, because (no matter where you work) you will always have to deal with people.

by robley3939

Sounds like you've got the technical end of things pretty well dialed in. Volunteering to work for free is one way to show your skills and it's relatively risk free for the company. Good luck!

Regards,
Arrowhead

by michael.becker

I have 11 current certifications from Microsoft, Cisco, and Avaya and I have been working in the industry for 24 years. Twenty four years is a long time for this industry.

Anyway what I have found is that degrees and certifications are screening tools for non technical departments. Many of the smartest people I know have neither degrees or certification but in this day an age certifications give you an opportunity to get in the door. Once in the door you have to prove yourself.

If you don't want to make the investment in a certification you have to find different ways to get in the door. Word of mouth, and friend of a friend are techniques that may work. Most of the jobs I have gotten have been from word of mouth or knowing somebody.

The three biggest things you appear to have going for you are your enthusiasm, ability, and your cheap from a salary perspective. Leverage that.

Once you get your first job, gain experience and make contacts future jobs may be easier to get.

by avid

excellent post. i work for a consulting company. most of my time is spent bailing out admins who have their postion based on their degree. but if their degree is so wonderful why do they have to pay me to do the job they were hired for?

by ccovington

start your own company, people throw away computers everyday. get a nice job after school and start your own business, network them together and you'll be on your way to success in no time
keep up the good work!!!!!

by gralfus

(snicker) Quite a few diverse opinions about what direction to take.

It sounds like you have plenty of motivation already, or you wouldn't be doing what you are doing. When approaching someone for a job, be able to succinctly "demonstrate" your abilities (not just your knowledge) by telling the person what you have done and what you want to do for them. In my last interview, confidence in my abilities was a strong selling point. I came off almost too confident, according to my new coworkers and boss. If you know you can do the job, that goes a long way in selling yourself to others. But as Oz said, you need to bypass the HR department and go to the hiring manager directly, which is a real trick sometimes, since many prefer to hide behind HR.

Certs and education were other strong points that put be ahead of my competition, but personality and confidence led the way. There are lots of techs that are cocky, which is different than confident. Nobody likes a cocky SOB who won't listen, etc. Calm confidence in your knowledge and work ability, and the ability to communicate those to the hiring manager is the best "way" to get a job.

To progress as a network admin, you will need to start studying the technical details of networking, and that is where certs can come in handy for concentrated information.

by truespeak

I am amazed by your narcissism. You got a job as a manager at 16, you are demanding your own pay rate, you also give lectures regarding how to get jobs.
Please keep in mind that this forum is not about your so called accomplishments. You may be one lucky case in millions but dont ask everyone to stop getting any school or college degree and join your league

by oz_media

I am a high school drop out with a tonne fo drive.
I amnot one in a millionat all, in fact I have successsfully shown MANY MANY others how to do the exact same thing. It is easy when considering the lack of drive in those you are competing with.

Now I am NOT byu any means saying DON'T go to College. My own son was driven to school and followed to homeroom for three months when he started skipping out, I am NOT an advocate that says don't get an education.

WHat I DO see too much of is OVER educated people with no skills in ersonal marketing or networking and therefore no matter how much education one has, no matter how many certs and diploma's they have, they cannot find work, often ending up here and complaining about the industry and how it is so hard 'where they live'.

My point is that you don't NEEED these things in order to findwork and advance your career. I have my MCNE now, it was also paid for by an employer I was already working with,plus I wanted to go on the Novell cruiseship, THAT was cool!

My point is peopel looking to enter the field often come here and ask WHAT certs do they need to get employment in their desired field. My answer NONE, and it is 100% true and has been proven so many times. I know a friend who operates a company that charges $4400.00 to use their resources and learn how to market yourself regardless of skills, they have literally thousands of cases identical to mine, many of which result in c-Level opportunities at phenominal wages.

The MYTH from the IT world is that if you get certs you will be able to find work, not so.
The mythy is that you NEED these certs to eve be considered for work. Again, not so at all.

Everytime i see someone with enough drive to start asking these questions, I see hundreds of IT managers in drone jobs saying how they NEED all these certs to be considered. The fact is, you don't, just don't start calling the drone it managers and looking for work, find THEIR boss instead, he probably doesn't evenknow what the different certs are, but can appreciate drive and skill any day.

I am not one in a million, I am not LUCKY, in fact I have worked damn hard for a very long grind to get what I have, despite the naysayers. My pointis, it CAN e done, by anyone with the drive and focus needed to find work. Finding the right career is a job in itself, it's askill that many career management companies teach and is more valuable than the certs in most cases.

One thing you will always prove, if you don't think you can and you DO need the certs, you are 100% correct. With all respect, people like yourself will never be proven wrong, because a lack of hunting and networking ability is the reason you will always fail, with these methods.

Then again, someone WITH the skills and drive will NEVER be proven wrong either.

In short, do you NEED the certs to find the career? NO.

DO the skills HELP in finding your career, YES. But only if you have some hunting skills too and can sell those abilities once you get them.

by scsadmin

Some people here have come close to what I believe, but seemed to miss out something important.

I have a degree in IT/Comp Sci, and don't have any Certs at the moment. I went to a few interviews before my first job and I'll tell you what I discovered. If you are relying on Certs, yours need to be better (or you need more) than the other guy. If you're relying on experience you need a lot of it (which is hard when you just start). Most jobs at large companies require both, look for a small company.

What won me the job was personality. I was told later that an older guy with a degree, certs and experience went for the same job (among others). The reason he wasn't employed was because they felt he acted superior about his knowledge etc. They didn't like his personality.

Oz Media came close with saying you need drive (which is important) but I think its also about your personality as a whole.

Don't lie to the interviewers but have a bit of confidence, here's something I said in the interview for my first job.

I told the interviewers - there is no Microsoft product I cant figure out (if I haven't used it yet), I have also used Linux, and there is no problem on a computer I haven't been able to fix (eventually =).

Try going for a job in a small company at first. I dont have a whole lot of experience but with a small company (less than 50 computers), you will probably interact with the HR person every day. If they aren't friendly then you probably dont want to work there.

Small companies are great to start in as more than likely you are the only IT employee there. Some of the things I worked on were, Databases in Access, website design/administration, network/server administration, firewall/security design and administration, policy creation, general IT support, Hardware/Software purchasing, the list goes on. Which is all great experience for when you go for a higher position.

Note that I haven't worked in any large corporate organisations.

Good luck

by tony hopkinson

but he is right.
I've no certs, no degree, didn't cold call to get my start, did it internally in a large corporate. Talent and drive is what you need to get a job, bits of paper are for HR tossers who can't recognise it.
Got my start while a data entry clerk, by volunteering to help out IT with with getting stroppy data into a new system.
Nothing wrong with certs or education, but they are not a substitute for get up and go.

by soeki

Totally Agree
"Nothing wrong with certs or education, but they are not a substitute for get up and go."

Nor they will assure you a dream job, in my short experience i've seen so many persons with certs and papers who still lack the drive to do things and certainly very Insecure to do stuff that they didnt study, let alone take responsibility for it...

And another thing, i have seen certified people who are very skillfull too, this whole subjet just proves that if you got the skills and drive you can and will get the job. so it's not OZ being pretentious its a reality.

by rfenczik

Getting your degree and certs are necessary. The more IT professionals I've talked to have confirmed this. I just turned 37 and I am finishing my associate of applied science degree in computer networking. I was always into computers but it wasn't until a couple years ago that I decided to go back to school after working numerous dead-end jobs. I realize that I will have to start at the bottom, and you like everyone else will have to as well. One thing I can say is that school has helped me not only obtain my degree, but also offers to let you take certs there as well. I got my IC3 Cert while attending and will soon be taking the Network+ exams. It's not much but I know I have to pay my dues just like you will. The only advantage I have is that I'm 37 and not 17. Best of luck.

by the admiral

You are in a position where you can go into the workforce. Congrats. Now, since you are debating the topic with yourself and asking for opinions, let me give you some very sound advice.

Get reference letters from those folks that you serve. If you have it on a resume that you did a LAN in High school and you have an MSCE, it is no longer enough to show that you can do the job effectively.

Companies have switched to certifications to education, and certificats being a plus, but not a requirement. Does this mean that you can find a job? Look at it like this: When you are done with high school, you will be fighting with nearly 100 million people for a job. You need to get a BS or a BA to be a candidate on a radar screen.

Do not believe that Microsoft certification is of high value, since companies have hired several certified people and now do not have networks for that matter that work. Get the college degree first, then start thinking about Microsoft Certification, or if the college offers it, then take those courses as part of your education.

But do not leave high school thinking that certification is a life line. You need a BS or BA with experience now!

by oz_media

I am a licenced mechanic, machinist, sales rep (sorry no college for that) etc.

I have never been unemployed, actually to rephrase that, I avoid BEING employed and simply employ myself. THere's TONNES of work out there, like you said, you just have to have a plan B, then C, then D, then whatever else you can think of to do.

And no, I don't have any college diploma, nor would find a need for one that covers any of the fields I have/can work in. The mechanics licence took me 4 years +2 for air care and specialty diplomas, I did this while between jobs, not to fidn work but for personal gain. I worked in the field for a dealer for a few years and now do my own thing as I can't stand watching someone get paid $120.00/hr while I get $40.

Why the hell should I pay for HIS heat, light and operational expenses? I have heat and light myself. Then it just takes a little marketing skill and effort on your part and you're off to the races.

I get bored of companies too fast to bother getting certs, by the time I get the cert I don't want to work in the field anymore or the maket has changed, you can spend your whole life in college if you want, or you can spend your whole life building your choice of career(s).

by rbautista

I was the same thing with you. I had the expertise but no actual papers. Some companies require this piece of paper that suppose to show that you finsih something. I know somebody who went to school and no actual training but still couldn't find a job because he was missing on hands on experience. I would say get a short course or even a 2 year degree to get in. It's hard especially with all the competitions out there that has the certifications and degrees.

by avid

i do not have a degree. i joined the military instead. i have had more job offers based on my experience and my honorable discharge than i would ever have had with a 4 yr. degree. all a 4 yr. degree shows is the ability memorized text and do a few term papers, most of which is simply re-wording quotes that other have written. hr's that pass over a resume just because it does not have the name of a college on it are only hurting their company. in fact the only people they are helping are the colleges by making others think it is neccessary to give them $80,000 for a slip of paper. you can get the same education and better "street smarts" by simply doing a few certs and getting real world experience. and it is much cheaper... no offence meant to those who have chosen the 4 yr. degree path, it is just that there are other paths and most of this business is deductive reasoning, not memorized theory.

by tick

I guess my degree doesn't mean as much, then, huh? I don't know many people that paid "$80,000 for a slip of paper." Regardless of the price tag, it's more than just a slip of paper, as well. You obviously know little of what goes on within the borders of a university if you can reduce it to such a simplistic level.

I'll venture a guess to say that most of the graduates among this list have done their share of memorizing, but deductive reasoning is probably one of the greatest assets obtained from a college education. It's difficult to say that you have had more job offers based on your military service rather than someone with a four year degree. All the military service can give you outright is respect for serving your country and more assurance that you'll be dedicated. Other than that, you might get some focused experience in a field, but college can do the same.

Sorry you have such a disrespect for the educated community. It's there to benefit those who wish to take advantage of what it has to offer. I don't know anyone that has said that obtaining their degree was a waste of time. Most realize they are a better person because of their education.

by angry_white_male

No doubt there is much value in a 4 year enlistment in the military... much preferable over no college.

My brother went to the Army, not a day of college... makes 6-figures and has 5% ownership in the company he works for. He doesn't work in IT... but he certainly wouldn't be where he is today if it weren't for his MOS in the Army.

by bhunsinger

Get the certification. A+ with N+ and s+ then mcse.
Here's why the + test. These will let you know what others will expect you to know. If your school will pay to take them- do it.
MCSE see the breadth of the system and how it connects. . MCP will also let you get into Microsoft system for free classes and training.
Experiance counts, but certs AND experience rule!

by avid

either get a cert., go to college, start out at entry level. no matter what you do, where ever you go work hard, learn from others, and you will succeed. you WILL NOT land a job where you are incharge of other more experienced workers. that only happens in the movies. if you have the ability that you claim to have, where ever you go you will stand out and be promoted swiftly. but you WILL NOT start at the top. but you can get to the top by proving that you are more deserving than the others who also want that position. reputation in this industry is a must. the more times some one calls the help desk and personally request you the faster your name will circulate.

by arjee63

Sure - go for the certs if you think you can get them. Then get a decent-paying job, don't get yourself into debt, and put yourself through college.

There are always "networking" opportunities that might land you in a dream job somewhere, but the more you can prove that you have the drive and discipline to complete your education, the farther you'll go, and the more opportunities you'll find open to you. A person with a degree - ANY degree - stands a better chance of getting a foot in the door for a good job.

On top of that, college provides so many other ways to broaden your knowledge that just the certs won't. You'll learn priceless research and study skills, and can take a variety of courses that provide insight into business practices, accounting, languages, you name it - upon which you can draw for the rest of your career. It will also give you an opportunity to delve into communication skills and technical writing, areas where many techies fall short.

To sum it up - get the certifications. Get the formal education while you're still without financial or family obligations. Do it now, so you're not among the thousands of 30- and 40-somethings going back to school because they're being outdistanced by less skilled people who have those degrees and certs. You can't re-earn the dollars you lose by not taking advantage of those opportunities.

by jmgarvin

I think what this boils down to is:
a) Getting through HR. Many companies don't or won't interview unless you have come through HR
b) The industry in general. While there are some with little or no education, some certs, and a good amount of drive that have good jobs, you are special cases.
c) Certs and the need for them. Certs are starting to become a joke. They are too easy to get and every Joe has one. What you need is experience and drive. Can you break in? Yes, but you need to really WANT it.
d) Education vs no education. Get the education. You'll find out that college is a lot more than a place to get a degree. College will help you mature in many ways AND it will let you know if you really want to do the IT shuffle. Many people drop out of CS programs because the glamor is gone. Go to college and find your niche.

by eyost05

Here it is and I will be brief. Either become your own boss and own a business and get your certs or...
Stay in school, get certified and get a degree. Take your time... you have a long way to go before you can be considered credible, you know you are credible but the person interviewing you does not...he or she has just interviewed twenty folks just like you and guess what? The person with the most certs and experience wins ...regardless of what others may say. And don't just buy a certification, study hard and earn one, because it will show.
Ed

by oz_media

As for those with the most certs wins.
I have won three contracts in five years with NO certs against NEW grads, college grads AND experienced/with certs.

NO certs, no HS even.

ACtually one employer did pay to get my CNE and MCNE training, but it was after I had worked for them a year and wanted to swap out the MS network (mainly for cost, encrytion and maintenance reasons).

But hey, I am one in a million, so I am told. Just like the other half a dozen people here who have done the same thing.

So what do you say to the frequent posts on TR from people with mroe certs than I can name who find they are losing job opportunities to 'unqualified' people without certs?

OVER qualified? LOL!

by oz_media

And everyone keeps saying I am one in a million.

One in a million IT staff maybe, maybe most just don't have any skills or motivation to present their ideas, unless it was in the textbooks they memorized I suppose. I haven't met an IT member myself that had any drive or personal sales ability. Mind you I have helped one guy quit his job and start his own business, he does VERY well now and has taken over many of his former employers accounts.

but like some say, it can't be done I am a special case, it's different where I live and all the other BS excuses they can contrive for not doing it themselves.