IT Employment
by the admiral
Several of the employers including myself do not offer any more money for certifications IF there is not AMPLE experience in the field.
If you are a HS drop out with Certifications, I probably won't hire you in the first place.
by the admiral
Several of the employers including myself do not offer any more money for certifications IF there is not AMPLE experience in the field.
If you are a HS drop out with Certifications, I probably won't hire you in the first place.
by tomsal
I was a Microsoft Network Admin for years before I had even one single cert. Then I got my MCSE on my own (paid for by me, btw). After I got my cert I got the biggest single raise I ever got in the near 10 year history with my company.
Looking back now, you know to be honest, most of the stuff I do -- is not drawn from my MCSE study work, its stuff I knew before MCSE and stuff I taught myself over the years.
by ramstryke
I hear that.. I'm working my certs little by little but have been in the job for over 5 yrs.. A lot of my work has been helped by my experience vs the stuff you study for certs....
How employers hire and pay is an entirely different story.
by proline_1
Your the type of person that hires illegal immigrants as gardeners and nanny's. I dropped out in 1986 and have many certs,and yea your right about it just being paper but how are people supposed to get experience unless given a chance,people make mistakes and yes some do learn from them.I am glad the first person to give me a chance wasn't you,and btw i have been a sucessful admin for ten years now thanks to someone who didnt live in a box. MCSE,MCDBA,CCDP,CCSP among other lower level certs
Have a nice day
by oz_media
I droopped out when my girfriend had a kid. I have held upper management positions, made top salaries, passed many certified pros by on my way up the ladder and have never had an issue with certs.
I also don't APPLY for work, I FIND it. Source out who I want to work for, figure out what they need and present some ideas, close the deal and negotiate a wage.
I had one employer who paid for my NOvell Certs, but I was employed as their IT manager for 2 years before that. Since then, I have never been asked what certs I hold. I work for myself now, have several avenues of income and work when I want (or need) to work, and that's it.
The whole certs get jobs crap is tiring, PEOPLE get careers, certs...well you may be able to get the 'advertised' job I suppose, but what a waste of time and money when you can actually spend money learning how to sell yourself and your skills and find your dream job instead.
by the admiral
No Sir,
My type of person hires people who say they are qualified and have the experience and EDUCATION that can back it up. I hire people who can hit the ground running and not ask questions as to how to do something. I hire people who can do the job out of the box without having to be trained by another technician.
If you are upset about that, then I suggest you go back and hit the books to get the degree, since the resume and many like you will go into the trash as soon as they are received without the appropriate education.
Without the education to back your credentials up, you are looked at as a possible liability to the company.
You too, have a nice day.
by oz_media
Perhaps that would make sense for a new employee that hasn't proven ability yet.
But after that person has proven as capable as other techs and as efficient as others, then pay should be based equally. I have always been a person that believes you deserve to be paid what you are worth.
In most cases I have always found employers with a similar attitude, if you have an MCSE and I don't, BUT I can do three other jobs well that the MCSE can't, then I bring more skill to the table and deserve to be paid more.
If I can prove I am just as good as the MCSE with Windows Server Administration then I want equal pay, proven ability is far more valuable than paper.
by dudeirock
I totally agree with what you are saying and that is for 1 reason. Who's to say that the guy/girl with the MCSE or whatever cert they have didnt just read a book and memorize a few answers and get lucky with the draw for the test. When you have someone that is proven in the field and can take on any job you throw at them, how can you say they are less valuable (lesser pay) than an employee with a framed piece of paper with a Microsoft logo on it.
But unfortunately thats the way this industry, and many others, is. So for the time being, we have no choise but to go for those certs, but I for one won't be going for a Microsoft cert, I can tell you that.
by oz_media
Some people rely on an industry offerein gthem a job, in which case you most certainly do need paper.
Others are driven enough and can propse their ideas to a company (whether they are hiring or not) and get a job of his/her choice at a higher negotiated wage.
Why would I want to apply, along with svereal hundred/thousand other applicants when the employer is offering a wage? YOu get on money that way.
Now, if you sell yourself to a company, THEN create your own position withint that company, you also get to dictate exactly how much they will pay you (last step in the process). Onc eyou have convinced them that you will bring what they NEED to the table,they will be more open to negotiating a salary.
It's not unique or rare, in fact I know people who tech a course on exactly how to advance your own career without the hassle of degrees and certs, it is VERY successful and their students are un upper management roles GUARANTEED for the two years they follow up with student and ensure continued advancement, of they get their money back.
I have taught a similar course when I was younger, and it has paid me off immensely in teh positions I am able to acquire. You can obtain positions without certs, even with certified techs applying too, and actually get paid more than they would have if the company took them on.
Drive and ability to present, not certs.
Certs are needed for those looking for the standard 9-5 with very limited scope and an average fixed salary rate.
DRIVE and ABILITY TO PRESENT, is needed to achive what YOU want at a rate YOU deserve.
by oz_media
I don't apply for work or send resumes. I send propsals to people who aren't advertising postitions and sell my ideas and abilities to them, as of yet I have never been asked what level of education I have, rarely get asked about certs and never have testimonials followed up on, reputation goes a long way.
It's not unique or anything, it's just a different approach to the market and that's what makes it successful, and usually pays more than applying for work or a fixed position.
But to each his own, you obviously work for a company/department I would avoid working with anyway, I hate working for people.
Such basic standard requirements are usually a strong indication that the company doesn't want to take time to find the proper fit or 'person' but is simply trying to fill a statistical hole.
As for education, I have passed college level entry exams for BCIT twice, so I think I'm okay.
I have also met a LOT of real morons with a High School or college diploma.
by lewisb
by vic
Ahhhh yeah Admiral, it's mainly high school dropouts who have you and the rest of us spending billions of dollars a year on security technologies. If you think for one minute that people who dropped out of high school and college are automatically a liability, you are being somewhat narrow minded. You my friend need to visit and blackhat conference or defcon, and look at the age and find out the education level of some of the people doing presentations and giving complex descriptions of cipher text and how to reverse engineer some insane software mechanism. Quite frankly, some of these people are absolutely brilliant, and you my friend are selling yourself short. I to own a successful Information Security consulting firm located downtown Chicago, and my best Security Consultant is guess what? A high school dropout. When I met him he was looking for contract work. After giving him a few small contracts, I asked him about what his plans were for the future. He told me he planned to get his GED, then enroll in college and get a degree in this field. Well, I took a gamble, offered him a full time position and paid for all of his certs, his GED classes, and his Bachelors degree. End result? The best move I've ever made for my company, he was truely a diamond in the rough and has contributed to my company's insane success more than pretty much anyone else. So moral of the story? Get your head out of your ass and get some instinct so that you can make some decisions without them being based on some arbitrary pre-configured system that is full of flaws. Want another good lesson? I allowed my VP to hire this person who is a model citizen, went to a very expensive private high school, went to the "best" college in the state (possibly even the midwest), has 2 bachelors and masters. End result? She is a total space cadet and probably the worst hire my company has ever made. I doubt she can even truely tie her shoes, not only that, she constantly makes herself look like an idiot by trying to jump into conversations with a "matter of fact" attitude when usually she's completely on another planet, in another time.
A person's past mistake of dropping out of high school or college is not nearly as important as what their current drive and goals are.
I'm not saying that either way promises anything. But if you've been in business long, then you should know that sometimes the best god sends as far as your business is concerned comes from unexpected places. You should never rule any social group of people out like that. Give them a fair an objective interview and you might be surprised at what you uncover.
This makes me think of how african americans had trouble getting good jobs early post slavery, when in actuality, many of the most profound inventions of that era were invented by slaves or freed slaves. Think about it, we pay billions for highly educated scientists, visionaries, and technicians, to create these really cool software and hardware solutions that will "protect" us from the criminals. But then it's these "un-educated" people that continously poke holes in all of this stuff time after time.
And just so you wont think there's any bias here, I have two bachelors and two MBA's.
Keatron Evans, CISSP
by mtech05
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