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Good Bye IT

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MCSE for Ten years
Employed for only four years over the last ten years(98-02)at whopping top salary of 35k per year here on Long Island! Replaced by lower costing kid with MCP certification!
Self employed since 02 at near poverty level income!
THE ABSOLUTE WORST CAREER CHOICE A PERSON COULD EVER MAKE!!
NEWCOMERS BEWARE!!!
VETS...GOODBYE AND GOOD LUCK!

WITHOUT A UNION "IT" WILL ALWAYS BE A PART TIME JOB!!

189 replies

by tony hopkinson

Bollocks!

Hey it didn't work out for you, so this is somebody else's fault?

Who told you, you were guaranteed a job and a good income, why did you believe them?

Employed for 22 years out of 22, top salary a smidgeon more than this guy.

To the newcomers , work hard, study hard, look for opportunities and take them not sit around on your ass waiting for someone to give them to you. Do that and some f'ker like me will have them away before you were aware they existed.

If you are thinking of being in IT just for the money, wake the f*** up.

Oh and 19 years in a Union as well, you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

by jackofalltech

I started out (a long time ago) as an Assistant Programmer. In two years I advanced up to Senior Programmer. Went on to Mainframe Support, then Desktop Support, then Networking. Spent some time as a System Admin. Now I'm an in-house Consultant for a large Bank making nearly 3 times the poverty level. Almost all of what I know I taught myself and proved myself to my employers.

You're correct. If you can't make a go of it, you should get out.

Unions today are just parasites, sucking the life out of our economy.

by oz_media

Completely agree, it's the never ending line of incompetent buggers that make finding good paying IT work so easy.

By incompetence I don't mean lack of IT skills, I can assure you that 99.999% of teh jobs I've had were taken from people with WAY more experience and more certs than I, that's for damn sure! I don't even have the piddly MCSE (MCNE though, yay Novell).

I would chase down employers and dig out opportunities where they had staff on hand that could do the job, but due to lack of drive and assertion, I would pick up the work from them.

It's the people standing around with a cert pinned to their chest and their hand held out that seem to be missing the boat.

by tmalonemcse

Many job postings require the degree and the certs. That's how HR weeds down the resumes. It's debateable if that raises the caliber of the applicants.

It's been my experience that larger companies are sticklers for the degree. It doesn't matter how many certs you have.

On the other hand, it's been my experience that most smaller companies use certs to find their techs. They're not so concerned about the degree.

But neither degree or certs entitle you to work. That takes ambition and competence. Does a union make it any better? I don't think so but that's just my opinion.

by tony hopkinson

of living.

How about 6$ for a pint of beer, OK it's better than what you guys brew, but not that much better.

:D

by jdclyde

The good workers are only held down by a union, where you advance based on how long you have been working somewhere, not how well you do the job.

With your attitude, I would say IT is a better place without you.

Good luck in your next profession.

In 10 years, that was the MOST you can say about yourself, that your an MCSE? No wonder your out of there....

by boxfiddler

The OH is a union driver for a local Anheuser-Busch distributor. He is an excellent worker, his stops love him to death because he does his job exceptionally well. He works anywhere from 10-14 hours per day humping kegs. This is hard labor. Were it not for the Teamsters, he wouldn't get paid jack-sh*t, would have no decent health benefits, no maximum load, and no OT for Saturdays and Sundays.

This man is out there breaking his back for what is, while not a bad wage, not a wage that is equivalent to the labor that he performs for the hours for which he performs it.

In each instance in which the unions have been broken in other beer distributor shops around here, the wages have dropped significantly as has the benefit level, the maximum load has been increased, and the retirement package has become less reliable. This industry needs the union.

While maybe IT doesn't need unions, the laborers of the world still do if they are to be compensated as they should be by their employers.

by jaqui

that there are some good people in every group, just like there are some a$$holes in every group.

Your SO is one of a dwindling number of unionised workers, ones who care about what they do. I have seen it myself on union sites, most people are only there putting the time in for the money, they don't care about the job at all.

by tony hopkinson

One equates to the Tolpuddle martyrs, the other to Hoffa or as bad in his way Scargill.

If they ask for money up front, it isn't a Union.....

by forum surfer

Then there are the UAW unions that make sure the guy sweeping the floor makes over 75k a year by the time he works 20 hours of OT. Meanwhile the guy who started this post is busting his brain to get an MCSE and college degree only to get 35k in return.

I think the unions take advantage of people's situation and offset our economy. Tired of making 30k sweeping floors or doing non specialized jobs that anyone else can do? Do something to get noticed and promoted or go out and educate yourself. Plain and simple.

Then again I take a hard line approach on welfare also. If you're on any government assistance you should have it noted on your id so you're banned from buying alcohol, tobacco or firearms. If the US government has to take money out of my hard earned check then you have no right to go out and buy items that are not essential to your survival, which is the purpose of government aide to begin with. Live in a house sponsored by habitat for humanity? Same thing applies, until you pay back the charity you have no right to booze, cigars or firearms. This is America, you have the right to pursue happyness, but not to live off of others hard work.

Guess I'm not getting into politcs.

:)

by jmgarvin

Not IT unions, they only kill innovation and screw the players that actually have any motivation.

Good that you are going, why don't you get a nice union job building cars?

by jiminpa

I certainly don't know you so wouldn't presume to attack you but being the area that you are in and salary range that you have acheived I can only assume this speaks to your skill level.
I live in a semi rural area in PA and there are MCSE mills all around me constantly pumping out greenhorns that would likely, gladly do my job for alot less than I do. The reason I still have my job is I take pride in it and if I may say I do it well.
Unions had their place in the early 20th century but not anymore. All they seem to succeed in doing any more is pushing good manufacturing jobs overseas.
Sorry IT didn't work out for you but I have to say anytime anyone asks me about my career choice I encourage them to check it out.

The only other thing I would rather be doing is be a Zamboni Driver but that hasn't panned out for me yet but there is always hope...

Best of Luck.

by tmalonemcse

I'm not sure why your salary level did not rise above 35K but I can tell you that there are definantly tech jobs out there that pay two to three times that much. You can find many of them on Dice.com today.

I feel for your loss. I was once replaced by someone that I hired and trained. After several years of mentoring, he got my job because he made 35% less than I did. It happens, but then we move on and find something else.

I love my career choice. I have been selling, installing, programming, fixing, supporting, troubleshooting, debugging, managing, networking and training others how to use computers for thirty years. It's a great career. You can make big bucks if you learn your stuff and love to help others.

My two cents worth. Good luck!

by tearat

I see from reading some of the reply?s in this discussion the myth

Work hard and you will succeed still lives

Get a clue you idiots
Work smart not hard

Anyway hope you find a job you like jakcap

by jdclyde

And he/she/it doesn't sound like he/she/it does either, hard OR smart....

Matter of fact, he/she/it sounds like a real twit. Other than that, I am sure he/she/it is a very nice person? :D

Less time buggering the sheep and more time working.... smart....

by tony hopkinson

is applying yourself which is smart.

So we never needed to invent another phrase to differentiate it.....

Smarts eh?

by oz_media

Northern UK and America are two very different places. In North America the theme is that you don't have to lift a finger if you are smart enough to get someone else to do it.

UK is, unless you lift a finger yourself, nobody else will do it for you.

It's a post war mentality that stuck around I think, my dad worked his butt off as a licenced tradesman since age 16. He had several tickets, god knows how many skilled trades under his belt and worked long hard hours. Made a great living, we all had exatly what we needed, without being spoiled or given a free ride.

In North America, unless you get handed a free ticket and a free ride, people get pis$ed off and start blaming the government. How many times have you seen disgruntled IT staff complaining that they went to school and nobody will 'give them' a job?

People out here dont' work, they whine and hold a hand out. Even the so called 'hard working people' are lazy in comparison to Europeans. one trade and they think they should have it made, as you know you need multiple skills, need to be able to change and transform as needed to succeed.

That term 'ask and you shall recive' is taken literally out here, in the UK its more like 'ask. and someone may give you a shot at earning it yourself'.

Two very different worlds, mate, believe me.

by tony hopkinson

The guys who won that battle are long gone.

Could the clock get turned back, unlikely.

Even if it did, if you think the c*nts who run unions today would martyr themselves for the cause, you need to switch back to resin.

by boxfiddler

putting in the time to collect the check. Which probably contributes heavily to the push to lose the unions and the wage/bennie drops, etc... It really is a 2 way street. Drivers like the OH are retiring and disappearing. The youngers will wind up completely blowing a good thing for those that follow them...
Sad, really.

by jaqui

it's the new person that is the one that cares, and the apathy is from those who have been there for a while.

in an discussion about groups of people, it has to be generalisations, or very specific [ name the dead wood ], anything else paints people with the wrong brush.

hmmm that could mke an interesting thread. ]:)

off to start it.

by jdclyde

I got yelled at by the old timers in the Union more than I EVER did by management. "working to fast".

Yeah, much better to watch the clock and have to hide out in the bathroom because you are an hour ahead on your production..... X-(

by jdclyde

because they PROTECT the lazy worthless worms, and allow them to become drains upon the company instead of assets.

It is a two way road and EVERY union and union employee that ALLOWS and CONDONES the lazy behavior are making it impossible for companies to be competitive.

A fair days pay for a fair days work goes both ways, but NOT if your in a union.

by rfink

There was ions. Some are positive and got a lot things done and were generally happy. :)

Some were negative, sat around, moped and did nothing. :(

The negative ones got together, charged more and still did nothing. They became the
UNion.

by kjell_andorsen

Did you ever consider it might be YOUR fault that you've had such a hard time in the field?

There are hordes of us that manage to make successful livings earning good money in IT with or without MCSE certs. Being an MCSE in no way entitles you to anything, you still have to work for it and actually earn it.

I've worked my way up from building computers for an OEM making just over minnimum wage, to being a systems Engineer with a large bank and earning a pretty decent living, but it's because I've had a career plan and worked ruthlessly to improve myself and my skillset.

It's called personal responsibility. Look it up

by oz_media

As this guy is unemployed anyway, no such opportunity for others, oh well, others don't seem to have an issue finding good work, not the motivated ones anyway.

by forum surfer

Must be your location. I have a very healthy job history working with IT (pc/server admin/Cisco). I don't have even have a four year degree or an MCSE. With "limited qualifications" I've even managed to work my way into management at my last employer. After 6 months, I couldn't get my old position back and the woes of working in management prompted me to find a real job lol. I don't get jobs because "I know people." I haven't had a problem keeping my salary above 50k for the past decade, not counting supporting small businesses on the side. My salary isn't offset with poor benefits, either. I have an excellent benefit plan with above average retirement and 401k.

As for a union, I'm not a big fan and would never join one by choice.

by router boy

Honestly did you think you could get a few certifications and a big money job was going to materailize out of no where? At what point are you going to stop make excuses for your lack luster earning potential and actually try and do something about it. Good luck in your new endeavor, but I hope you go about things differently than you did IT.
To be successful at anything takes work and dedication and from your post it seems you lack both.

by locrian_lyric

It's not the 90's anymore and it seems as if that's all he remembers.

I remember that the field has gone through more than one phase of 'boom then bust'

by cmiller5400

I'd vote for you. When I worked at a supermarket 8 years ago part time, I saw people take their cash benefits from welfare, and then go and buy scratch tickets. That pi$$es me off to high heaven! There needs to be a massive overhaul of the welfare system. It is too easy to sit there and do nothing whilst collecting $$. If you are on welfare, you should be out WORKING and using the welfare to supplement your income, not be the main source. If you can't work, then you should be on disability. And even the disablility system needs to be reworked. A lady I knew was out on SSDI because of foot problems. Yet she could stand for 8 hours on a ladder weaving vines. (I KNOW she had a mental problem!)

by locolobo

way back when (70s and 80s). Saw the same, except it wasn't lottos. They would cash in Food Stamps and buy booze and cigarettes. Don't tell me it was illegal. I knew that. But they would send their children in each with a $1 food stamp each and collect the change until they had enough to get their booze.

by oz_media

Though I have proven the large business seeking certs only to be false, as well as teh HR issue. I have yet to speak with HR for any job I apply for. I contact employers, companies that I want to work for, not just those that are hiring.

I reach teh owner and work my way in by pitching a business plan to the owner. I HAVE had a business owner send my resume through HR, but they take close notice of it and do't bother weeding it out, it WAS given to them by their boss afterall. I have an MCNE (not useful unless in a Novell environment) and dropped out in grade 11, have never been out of work unless due to my own desires or being self employed and taking time off.

I find small companies almost never ask for certs or degrees though, they usually don't want to pay the price and I find they are more likely to get a styaff member to double task (even if clueless) or an entry level admin to do everything for them at a lower salary.

by tmalonemcse

So you're selling your services and not really applying for a job. Is that the approach you take? From what I read on your posts, it has been working for you. You are a rarity - a tech that can sell B-)

by oz_media

A salesman that can tech. :)

Just someone with experience boosting business for people and IT seems to fall into the picture quite often. I just learned to build a few talents, one of which is the ability to find the business owner and sell myself where needed. I am not tech by any means, have an MCNE from a few years back but haven't worked with Novell for a while now.

by tearat

They think about sheep shagging a lot I hear
Or is it the Poms they seem to like sheep

As for you Yanks I herd it was steers
Just watch out for the stampede

So glad the world will not be fucked by longhorn now just the NAs

Kiwi?s like rooting around in the bush

by robo_dev

It's been good to me, and it's fun.

If I had chosen a career other than IT, I don't think I would have been nearly as successful.

The grass is always greener.....

by tearat

Me I like to think the work I am doing is worthwhile

I like the phrase

"Be smart get someone else to do it for you"

Mostly used by middle management

by tony hopkinson

That's why I moved into IT. (1987)

I used to do data entry on shifts in a warehouse.

It's all relative.

I've had jobs where I felt there was nowhere else to go, that wasn't IT though, that was IT for company X, and I got up and went.

It was the smart thing to do.

by tearat

If you want to get anywhere in life you have to use your brain

What I find most funny is what some people think is hard work
Most of those people have desk jobs

Just ask grandpa
He?s sure to start to start with

?When I was a young lad we had to?

If I want an easy life I can always retire

Damn job at the moment

Too many idiot?s who hardly have the brains to wipe their bums
They just don?t give a damn
Can?t be bothered with the play station generation

by tony hopkinson

Physically, mentally or emotionally demanding, makes no difference.
My Da did hard manual labour all his life, one of the things he takes great pride in is that he gave his son more options than that.

I have the same hopes for my grandkids, if I can get them off that f'ing WII.

by $dunk$

[i]What I find most funny is what some people think is hard work Most of those people have desk jobs [/i]

Before becoming a software engineer, I held numerous odd jobs from restaurant, to security, grocery, construction and more. While some of those jobs were physically taxing, after sitting on my butt for an hour I would be good as new.

However, much of my work as a software engineer is mentally challenging. When I've done a stretch of this kind of work, it takes days (or even weeks) to recover. So I would beg to differ with your insinuating that desk jobs are not as hard of work as the physically demanding jobs. I think desk jobs can be WAY MORE demanding.

by stratusaugustus

But I dropped out of college to play guitar for a few years. For the last 18 I have been in IT. I am in the lower 6 figures and have no certifications. I ran my own company and had 200 technical people working for me at one time.

I now am comfortably avoiding anything that resembles management work and stick to the technical side of things.

The most limiting thing that I've discovered is one's own attitude. I would have to say that your generalization regarding North America is quite wrong, in my experience. Most of the people I work / have worked with have been hard-working and proud of their work. Too many government jobs, perhaps?

by oz_media

I know many hard workign people too, that's how i grew up so you kinda flock together. I am talking about today's youth, the kids getting into IT. Sure they seem like hard workers when working, but there are a great deal who simply get PO'd when they get that piece of paper (after 12 years of grade school and 4 years of college)and aren't handed a life.

Building a career is work itself, people seem to think that they can get a free ride, pick up a cert or two by age 30 and be set up. We see them here all the time.

by jdclyde

I am sure you are going to find people still willing to work for a living.

Believe me, the lazy "worker" is alive and well. My time working for a union shop was one of the worst experiences of my life. Caught grief from the union boys all the time for "working to fast" and "making them look bad". They didn't understand that them being lazy worthless slug, they made THEMSELVES look bad.

Michigan is a heavy Democrat state, which means over half the population is standing there with their hands out.

by pser

Oh, common now. I am a Lib./Dem. (That's right, I am one of few who will admit that! :) and I have been working since I was old enough to sling a grinder (which was probably to young but my Dad started working me and my bros.early in his shop). Been on my own since 15, became a father at 17, raised him by myself (he's 22 now with a 5 month old, My grandbuby!). All this along with being born with a congenital birth defect.

Not once have I ever been on welfare, food stamps, disability, or any other Gov. assistance program. Hell I never even saw any child support (I was told If I were a woman "They" (D.A.) would pursue my case and the boy's maternal parental unit, but alas I am male). As well, I've had a multitude of "careers" that led me to where I am now and I have never been un-employed for longer than a couple of weeks.

Now, JD I am not trying to start a debate or anything as I know where you stand on this issue. However, I want you to know that not ALL Lib./Dems. are lazy and waiting for hand outs. Again, I already know you disagree I was just curious about the state of the State of Mich.

Correct me if I'm wrong (LOL) but is it not corporations (like GM mostly) closing plants to offshore there production for the sake of their bottom line, that left such a high un-employment rate? Which has left so many people in dire straights? Which has left Mich. In such a poor state?

Would seriously like to know from someone who lives there. As I've heard and read conflicting stories. I know yours will be a little biased but that's okay, I would still like to hear it.

by bunkyaz

I have been working in IT since 1992. I have taught classes, built computers, ran cable and fiber, administered networks, provided telephone support and supported a large test center. Some of the jobs were temp. some at the whim of idiots. But all helped me to learn different aspects of IT and crystallized into my current position, where I am happily learning and supporting my users. You cannot rest on your knowledge in IT, you must grow!

by tearat

I post a reply not calling anyone in particular an idiot and someone replies

Tell me Tony why did you reply?

Wonder if twits would have got the same response

by tearat

Me complaining
No
Get the humour will you

I see you did not reply to my first post directly
Good for you

by tearat

But the level of required intelligence was set by the replies received

Smarts eh?

by tearat

I like my job at the top

Guess that makes me the only boss in the company
Can?t go any higher unless I promote myself

by itgrunt80

You shouldn't give up. Apply yourself. The truth is that most of the Tech Support, Desktop Support and entry level System and Network Admin jobs won't give you above 35-40k. There are a higher demand for programmers, DBAs, and Enterprise Networking Technicians/Cisco Engineers that will pay you the 65-100k you seek.

by jakcap

Well I can see all the Dept Heading Brown-Nosers, Corporate CEOs/Owners, IT Training salesmen, foreigners....etc....all showed up to wish me farewell!!!

Fact is to these people, IT is a "non profitable cost overhead"....and all general IT workers are "very expendable" to them!!
As a matter of fact they view you as nothing more than the "TV Repairmen of the New Millennium"!!.....Do you really feel safe at your jobs??

What kind of retirement will you have when you are forced to change jobs five-ten times during your careers????

Wake up!!

by tony hopkinson

Most of the people who replied on this thread are fellow diatoms.

So as well as give me a job, I've got educashun, you are now a job for life merchant as well?

You are taking the p1ss aren't you?

You get a good retirement by paying out loads of money into plans and crossing your fingers, one employer or several, makes no difference.

One of my old firms shut up shop, (I'd transferred out in a sell off), and binned their entire sheme for anyone who hadn't already retired. Guys with 30+ years in, nothing..

The MDs had retired a couple of weeks before the administrators announced this, but that was a co-incidence. I'll bet you alot of money most of teh uinion reps had too.

The corps give politicians money to buy our votes, then they want a return on their investment.

Making the above scenario perfectly legal is one of them.

Forget unions we need a revolution.

by jdclyde

you decided to let the door hit you in the ass after all?

NO job has security through out your life, because the world is changing all the time. With the changes comes new jobs, and old jobs fad away. Ask the buggy whip makers.

All you can do is watch the trends and adapt to the changing world. [i](or as some would call it, "evolve" )[/i]

What kind of retirement? Depends on how much I can stuff into my 401K. People build their own future now.

farewell.

so, what new magic line of work did you find that will keep you secure for the rest of your lifetime, as well as providing you with that retirement you have your eye on?

by locrian_lyric

Look pal, I take a very hard-line to whiners like you for a simple reason.

I am hearing impaired, autistic, diabetic and have neurological problems as well, and I don't whinge on about it.

I do bring it up to make one simple point.

If I can do it, anyone can.

Now, you can lick your wounds and cry about how pitiful your life is or you can dust yourself off and get back in the saddle and make something of your life.

Your attitude is going to ruin you if you don't change it now.

by tmalonemcse

I like that, "TV Repairmen of the New Millenium." It fits! But as long as there are computers, our skills are needed.

No, anybody who is employed "at will" can't feel secure in their future employment. The threat of job loss is always there.

There are no guarantees in this line of work. You work hard and if you get fired or the company dies, you move on.

I've had fifteen IT jobs in thirty years. My wife hates it. She sees it as unstable. I see it as getting a raise.

Retirement is something that you take care of yourself. You can't depend on a single company or the government to be there.

Wake up to what? I think most of us realized long ago the shock you seem to have recently received. So what?

Most people hate change. It sounds like you are one of them. Change can be good. It forces you to reevaluate your attitude.

You came back to check on us. Stick with it. It will work out. It's a good career. Someone else will appreciate your talents.

by maecuff

Programmer/analyst here. Got a good job, could get another one if I wanted to and make a very good living.

by pser

You know, I am a bit of a noob to IT as well (compared to most here). Only been working in IT (Due to physical degeneration that wore my already f'd up body down) for 11 years now. I worked my way UP to where I am now (very comfortable) been through my share of temp, contract, perm. jobs. I've had to deal with "outsourcing" ... twice. Here's the kicker ... in ALL my time in IT I have not been without a "job" AT ALL. I'd leave a job on a Friday and be working the following Monday.

You may not like where you have been or where you may have to go or what you may have to do to get to where you want to be. But you gotta work man and your defeatist attitude is probably why you THINK you can't make it in IT. Is it the nature of the beast that's keeping you down or is it your fear of the beast? I'd say the latter, and would recommend a good hard look at yourself before coming here and trying to slam those who have succeeded where you have not.

by tony hopkinson

Absolute corker at the end though.

"trying to slam those who have succeeded where you have not"

You're a vicious wee fooker when you get going aren't you?

:D

by jmgarvin

So, what field you moving into that is so stable and secure? What are you going to be doing?

by tearat

Lost most of them along time ago

Just the companies now who do more than TV repair
Most of those do PC repair as well
Plus lots more

Some of the IT folks found jobs with them

Don?t limit your job-hunting to IT only
You may find working for a company like that suits you

Never liked the brown-nosers there was always someone better at their job who didn?t waste time brown-nosing
Guess that?s why they do it
It?s the only way they can get ahead or noticed

As for changing jobs
The politicians are working on that
When they finish almost everyone will have the same never-ending job, unemployment

You could always move to a place where they need IT skills
The 3rd world

The cost of living is good
Low rent

by jdclyde

a disease known as socialism.

I hear all the time how the French have it made because they only work 30 hours a week. Sure, that they have 29% unemployment is a bummer but just think, not having to work!

That is why Unions took on so strongly, because they are designed to get as much money as possible for doing as little as possible.

Since when is putting in a hard days work a bad thing?

To many lazy gits around here.

by dr dij

here in the US, where 'Student Union' means a place where students at a college can get together and play ping pong, eat, etc;

in France, students ACTUALLY STRIKE!

because they are not getting paid ENUF to be a student!

Totally mind boggling!

by jdclyde

to find that third generation citizens are STILL considered immigrants, and are not allowed to assimilate into society. Very telling when the riots started up and they just let it happen as well.

by pser

more options but more importantly a stronge work ethic! Which I thank my Dad to this day for.

by pser

Sometimes I miss those "physical" jobs. It's a different kind of tired for sure!!

by jdclyde

This state was having problems before the whole offshoring trend started.

The "big three" WERE pulling plants out of Michigan decades ago, leaving a big hole in cities like Flint and Detroit. Michigan has a HUGE tax burden, and it just continues to rise, chasing business out.

Because the displaced workers had no skills, what else could they do without training? Because they had such high paying jobs, way out of line with their skill sets, what jobs would they accept?

What was in my opinion, the worst thing for the big cities, was when the requirement about HAVING to work in a cities limits if you work for that city, was removed. All the people with government jobs moved out of the cities and took all the money with them. That meant they were no longer living/shopping/paying property taxes to/in that city. There are some VERY rich places to live (Ann Arbor is rated near the top of favorable places to live in the country) but much is really hurting.

Cities like Detroit ran into budget crunches, and when the locals wouldn't/couldn't allow their taxes to be raised, the city cut fire and police resources. This made bad places to live DANGEROUS places to live, chasing away more of the businesses and people with the paying jobs that could afford to move to the suburbs. They currently have a crook running Detroit, and even through he has been repeatedly caught abusing his position, the residents of Detroit still re-elect their gangsta mayor. They now DESERVE every bad thing that happens to them.

We have the highest unemployment in the country, and are listed number one as the flight state. That is where they look at the number one state that people are moving OUT of. People with skills that can't find employment are moving away, draining the workforce, leaving less people working and a higher tax burden left on those of us that work, to pay for the social/welfare programs.

I have full custody of my twin boys, and no, my ex does NOT pay a penny of support.

This state is quite insane. Jessie Jackson WON this state back when he ran for pres, and he is a major crook.

When you start telling people that it isn't their fault that they did nothing with their lives, they see no reason to START doing something with it. The CORE of Democratic ideals ENCOURAGES underachement. If you can bust your a$$ for 50 hours a week, or not work at all, and still have a nice house and drive a Lincoln Navigator, where is the incentive to work and not be a waste of oxygen? Just go down to the social services departments and watch the cars that pull up.

People need to develop personal responsibility and stop having the government go to their neighbors to take their money because they are to lazy to beg for it themselves. Government is NOT the answer to poverty.

Sorry, kind of a rant, and I may have chased my tail a few times there. If there are parts that you want/need clarified, just ask.

A last thought, if reducing taxes does NOT improve our country, why are we pulling in record "revenues" for tax collections, despite the "Bush tax cuts for the rich"? Why would the DEMOCRAT controlled Congress give us all an EXTRA tax rebate? Because people buying things is what gives other people money because they have jobs selling things and making things to be sold and designing things to be sold. THAT is where people get jobs from, not a RICH congressman/woman (regardless of the letter) giving handouts to buy votes from stupid lazy people. Let people that EARN money spend THEIR money that THEY earned, which in turn gives us jobs.

by pser

"vicious wee fooker" ... I LIKE it!!!

I am an A$$hole (and proud of it) and try to make that clear as often as possible. That's not a bad thing ... is it? ;)

I do like my new International title though, Thanks! :)

Edited: for evil

by pser

Thanks for taking the time to answer my question about the state of "your" State in such detail. It's a very passionate description of something that you obviously care a great deal for, with good cause. I knew things were bad there and have been for a long time now. I can and do empathize with your disdain for the stupidity of most of "our" Government officials, at all levels, and the toll it is taking not only on this country and it's people but the world as a whole.

I'll save the debating of politics for the inevitable thread that WILL come up and we WILL most likely have some opposing view points. For now, again, I thank you for indulging this bleeding heart Liberal!!
You're alright JD, I don't care what everyone else says about you! ;)

BTW: I raised my son by myself as well and never saw a penny of child support. Was even told by the D.A.'s office (Child Support Enforcement) would not pursue what was rightfully my sons because I was a man! Reverse the situation and my a$$ (a man) would have been in jail in a heart beat. Ain't that some sh!t!

by tearat

Must be the awesome brain I have

Never found the psycho work that hard

Now carrying around poles ladders iron concrete
That was hard work
The deskwork was easy
Writing software easy

Don?t know what you lot are complaining about