38 replies
by bfilmfan
by jdclyde
Sorry, had to get that in. Just kidding.
But yes, people in general forget that an e-mail should be treated the same as a Memo or letter with all the correct spelling/grammer/formatting.
I still get e-mails in all caps daily. This moves them to the bottom of my "to do list" automatically.
by house
I noticed that business communications are becoming increasingly more susceptible to bad grammar skills. I don't understand why, even in an email, someone would insist on using slang, lewt, poor sentence structure, improper homophones, and anything else that would consist of bad English.
In my opinion, language skills and professionalism are directly related. I would never hire or refer any such offenders.
by leasingri
by house
I don't really care much about grammar and spelling at Tech Republic. Most of us do not have the patience or time to proofread and edit our posts. :)
The only issue that I have with posts on TR, is perhaps thick lewt and excessive use of acronyms that are not quite as common as people think. Another issue with the use of acronyms, is perhaps double meanings. Some can be deciphered within the context of the post, but others are lost in translation.
Use of Acronyms can get too confusing, especially in Information Technology, with acronyms having more than one meaning. For example:
IP - Internet Protocol or Intellectual Property?
ASP - Active Server Page, or Application Service Provider?
Perhaps ANSI needs to standardize acronyms. :-)
by jdclyde
and take everything around them too seriously as well.
A shame that this board doesn't have a spell check on it. Would make me look much better!
: >
by choppit
by house
...is a key example of this acronym confusion. We should be able to identify it though, through the context of the post.
There should be an acronym standard in IT - you're right on that note. :)
by choppit
Just recently I've come to the conclusion that I spend too much time composing written material.
Generally speaking, everything I write is as concise as possible, grammatically correct and free from spelling errors (to the best of my ability). The trouble is, most of the people I work with exhibit poor comprehension and even worse grammatical\spelling skills. Not only are they unable to interpret written information, they 're also unable express themselves accurately in writing.
To illustrate this point, this post has taken me 20 minutes to compose.
In my case I suspect that my time would be better spent doing something else.
Does anyone else have similar views?
by apotheon
If you think your time is better spent elsewhere, then perhaps you should take up some pursuit where composing blocks of vaguely understandable text is not necessary. Even if only one in fifty people notices when you use English clearly, accurately, and precisely, it's to your advantage to do so. After all, that one in fifty is most likely to be the one with the most to offer you.
Ignoramuses may occasionally luck into positions of power, but they tend to squander it and drag down with them everyone they "helped" along the way. I'd rather be associated/connected with someone competent.
This message took less than a minute to compose.
by choppit
by house
I have a similar view, but English comes naturally to me. Of course I make a few mistakes every now and then. I am also bad for using cliche phrases.
1) You're missing a comma between "correct" and "and" on the third line of text, as well as after the word "case".
2) Use a "/" instead of the "\".
3) "they 're" should be "they're"
4) You're missing the word "to" between "unable" and "express"
5) You don't need the brackets.
[i]two minutes[/i]
:) LOL - Don't take it to heart; it's just a joke.
My time is better spent doing something else.
by choppit
1) The lack of comma is the *correct* English. Commas and "and" are list separators. To have both is superfluous.
5) The brackets are a change of emphasis and may be used or not as the writer wishes. Don't fall into the trap of trying to write in your own interpretation.
See! It's not so easy.
two minutes
by mlayton
by house
1) [i]concise as possible, grammatically correct, and free from spelling errors[/i]
The above phrase is a list. When you are using a list, with three or more items, you need to include a comma before the word "and". Maybe there are different rules in the UK.
5) The brackets are fine, but they are not necessary. An editor will tell you to remove them.
* I don't really care about English on TR. :)
And is never followed by a comma over here.
I concede your point on the brackets but I would read the emphasis of the sentence differently with and without.
I like to be able to read a sentence that doesn't cause my brain to stumble over grammar or punctuation. Even on TR!
Pedant is not even close!
Trying to read Oz_Media's posts when he was in full flow during the lead up to your election nearly detached a retina. I think that was mostly the typos. :-)
by apotheon
It's not different in the UK. It is correct, in a list context, to use the comma. The comma dileneates list items. The "and", distinct from commas, might be used to join multiple objects within a single list item, and the comma is necessary to distinguish between that "and" behavior and the use of "and" to indicate the nature of the list (as opposed to an "or").
In both the US of A and the UK, there is a definite trend in informal English instruction to omit technically correct, but largely inaudible (in verbalization), punctuation. Informal English style is creeping into formal communication, because many people are never exposed to instruction in properly rendered formal English. This trend is only accelerated by such phenomena as the default setting of the MS Word grammar check, which omits the last comma and actually (incorrectly) indicates only one space after a sentence-ending punctuation rather than the two that would be correct.
The fact that nobody pays any attention to "two spaces after a period" any longer really kind of annoys me. I've learned to overlook it online, since without use of HTML character entities to render nonbreaking spaces (or going to other such lengths) all whitespace is minimized to a single space by the HTML standard. Though there's only one space after each period as you read this, I automatically insert the correct two spaces after a period when typing because I originally learned the correct standard for punctuation. The same applies to my use of that last comma in a list context within a sentence: I use it, regardless of whether anyone else notices it's correct. As a drill sergeant once told me, "Discipline is doing the right thing even when no one is looking."
Technically, house was incorrect, in that those are parentheses, not brackets. He was correct to say they were not necessary. You (neil@home_in_UK) are correct in your suggestion that they are not incorrectly used, however. The presence or absence of parentheses there would change the meaning of the sentence, but neither is necessarily incorrect.
by salamander
Once, I got an e-mail rejection letter for a position I applied for, but didn't interview for. The funny part about it was that the rejection was not directed to me...the name included in the cut-and-paste form letter was that of a candidate they *had* apparently interviewed. Tacky.
Though this was a big company, I don't think that there's any way I would be trusting them with my personal data. Just sloppy.
by house
How did I know that you would intervene?
I don't really care about the "parentheses". When all is said and done, it is style versus style, and not necessarily bad English.
I'm glad that you agree with me regarding the commas within a list. I always use the ", and" format, but I've seen it written without, as the other poster claims, on many occasions. Perhaps, the language is always changing. Who knows what is right and wrong anymore?
Regarding brackets: I've always used that word eventhough I know very well that"[]" are brackets. Old habits die hard. <- There I go with the stupid cliche phrases again. Whatever - life's too short.
by house
Since the concept of email and chat programs have some into play, inaudible text has been disappearing from the English language. Soon, there will be nothing left but acronyms, lewt, and short phrases. We may even see the regression towards hieroglyphics, and other such methods of communication, considering the popularity of emoticons. :)
Chris
by apotheon
Please, whatever any of you do, don't replace my beloved English language with l33tsp34k! I'd have to go on some kind of psychopathic killing spree, or something along those lines.
Well, maybe not, but I'd certainly have to retreat even further into the life of a hermit.
By the way, house, you probably knew I'd get involved because I'm the Grammar Fascisto! Where are my jackboots?
Oh, yeah, one more thing: That should be "Old habits don't die easily."
by house
It was another jab at my extensive use of cliche phrases.
In my opinion, the use of such phrases can separate the good writers from the bad. The use of another's poetic genius is borderline plagiarism. :)
It's funny that you didn't get the joke.
Maybe you did?!?! I don't claim to be an expert on the subject, but at least I try.
by apotheon
Yes, I got it. I responded with a joke (or several). I've been told my sense of humor is sometimes a little "dry". I apologize for not making my return joke more obvious. Heh.
Actually, I've also been told something like "Every time you tell a joke, I want a drink." I wonder if that means the same thing as "dry sense of humor".
"Creativity is hiding your sources." Who said that, anyway?
by house
Einstein said that creativity is hiding your sources. Apparently, it was also said by Mark Rein-Hagen, the creator of [i]VTM (Vampire: The Masquerade)[/i] from the Whitewolf RPGs, but he didn't give reference to Albert. There appears to be a domino effect here, as the screenplay writers for the movie [i]Underworld[/i] did not thank Mark for the entire world that they "created".
I thought that I understood your sense of humour, and I was right. It's about as dry and subtle as mine. In an argument though, I get pretty "ghetto", whereas you tend to keep your composure enough to blind the other party with lyrical prowess.
just checking :)
"Don't dive in head-first when you don't know if it's water".
I checked up on the rules of grammar and then actually *read* the sentence and realised that it was a list of like items where the "and," is *usually* applied. The rules of grammar do state that it is, however, not a fixed rule and leaving a comma out in that position does not warrant the death penalty. The comma is NEVER used when the list is a series of different adjectives.
Being slapped with my own petard earlier in this discussion has caused me to think and I came to the conclusion that this thread is an open invitation to pedantry.
However, there is a very serious point to be made. If I communicate with you using written English then I *must* ensure that the spelling and grammar of that communication is correct at all levels in order that there will be no ambiguity in the meaning caused by grammatical errors.
If I write a sentence that is grammatically incorrect then it is my fault if that leads to ambiguity which then leads you to an incorrect interpretation.
In answer to the original poster - how much more so if English were not my first language?
Consider the following:
The Pedants Revolt
The Pedant's Revolt
The Pedants' Revolt
The three lines all have different meanings but all are gramatically correct.
Grammar and puctuation in the UK is absolutely sh:t at the present time. There is hope, however, as a book on punctuation has made the best-seller lists!
Neil
by apotheon
"as a book on punctuation has made the best-seller lists!"
Hopefully the writer got everything right.
I remember that back in the '80s there was actually a movement among descriptivist grammarians (darn those descriptivists!) to discard the apostrophe-after-s possessive form for plural nouns, just using an apostrophe-before-s for both singular and plural. In other words, for both singular and plural forms, the possessive would be "pedant's". Three things happened here:
1. Within a few years, the whole notion seems to have been dropped, and we can go on with our lives using the proper application of apostrophes.
2. Even with the matter dropped, some damage (caused by this "official" sanction to do the WRONG thing) has been done to the statistical incidence of people that know how to properly write the possessive form of a pluralized word.
3. My general loathing of extreme descriptivism in the study of the English language began.
You see, I prefer the language I'm using to have some kind of rules to it. If descriptivism is taken as the new rule of the day, then all rules vanish the moment someone chooses to ignore them. Screw that noise. I like being able to understand what I read.
I'm not sure we have Descriptivism by name but I recognise the breed. "Let's make it simpler because I don't understand it".
No kidding about the book, though. It's called "Eats, shoots and leaves" and features a picture of a gun-toting Giant Panda on the cover. Even though the pun introduced by the comma is a bit obvious, the book has sold millions and - I suspect - has been fully read by dozens.
I'm waiting for it to be remaindered before I get a copy to check for grammtical errors.
by apotheon
I don't see [i]Underworld[/i] as being a direct rip-off of the WoD gameworld. In fact, other than the way vampires work (which is more like Anne Rice's vampires than those of the WoD), the fact that werewolves can change shape at will (which long predates WoD stuff), the fact that neither side likes the other, and the fact that everyone's clothing is terminally hip (again, more like Anne Rice's novels than WoD gamerules), there aren't really any similarities between the conecpts in [i]Underworld[/i] and those in the World of Darkness games. In fact, basically anything that anyone might try to make a serious case out of, in terms of calling [i]Underworld[/i] a rip-off of WoD games, was ripped off from other sources by Mark Rein-Hagen and friends.
Have you read the court document that was filed by White Wolf when they brought their concerns about their supposed intellectual property into the wide world of litigation? It was a joke, through and through. They probably got laughed out of court.
"you tend to keep your composure enough to blind the other party with lyrical prowess."
Ahem. Thanks. Excuse me while I preen.
by house
I agree with you. It is common folklore. I still believe that the Underworld creators used the WoD RPGs for reference though.
"Creativity is hiding your sources." Don't forget about the dry jokes.
by apotheon
by dngunraj
It's always good to be surrounded by professional individuals who value the art of English conversation. Of course when persuing the best IT career it's always important to remember that money talks and grammar walks.
If they paid me enough to do a pretty rewarding IT position, I would quickly learn all I can about their "grammer."
Later,
DNG
by apotheon
You make a good point. My preference is to work, and associate myself, with people that communicate effectively. Sometimes, financial necessities prompt me to be very tolerant of willful ignorance.
C'est la vie.
by jdclyde
"at least we finally agree on something"!
That is what makes me grin like an idiot.
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