Guns can protect or kill

I agree, of Chinese (us) some are bandits, more violent, and in general of lower moral standard that should be more cautiously disapproved of carrying guns.

verified before being posted. One I love from some years back was about a criminal who walked into a popular store and pulled out a gun in an attempt to rob it. He was very surprised when over thirty people pulled out their own guns and pointed them at him - he gave up real quick.

I suspect that few had a direct view of the shooter. Had more than two or three in the audience been armed, they might have mistakenly fired on each other. If you hear shots and you can only see one person shooting, you aim at him assuming he's the original assailant, overlooking the possibility that he's a fellow defender. This becomes even more likely in a crowded, dark theater in the middle of one of the movie's battles, with screaming people constantly altering the sight lines. Fortunately, many other gun owners I've heard from say they probably would not have fired due to a lack of verifiable target. As the number of owners goes up, the number of irresponsible ones does too.

That's also my response to the original poster's position that we're better off if more people are armed. At what point do those attempting to defend everyone else become a danger to each other?

As to Americans needing guns because we're rich, more crimes are committed against the poor, by the poor, than against those who are better off.

I find it ludicrous to be lectured on safety by someone from a country that routinely imprisons others for the ghastly crime of disagreeing with it. Now there's a group of people that need firearms. See Ernest's 'One point...' above.

If I'd been allowed to keep my Remington 870 Brushmaster 12 gauge shotgun, or my father's Browning semi-automatic .22 poacher's rifle I can save a lot on food by shooting rabbits on the local farms and making a lot of rabbit stew. But, nooo, thanks to a push by certain elements in our society all the law abiding people have been disarmed and only the criminals now have guns. The changes to the laws also meant that it costs them nearly as much to buy a military MP5 with folding stock as it does for a semi-automatic .22, so the crims now buy military weapons when they can - the cost and prison time for having them is now the same.

An AR-15 is a dandy varmint rifle. Of course I live in the country where I sometimes need to reach out and whack something at distance in the field. You really can't sneak up close on ye olde coyote... Thus I do believe pointing at a rifle and saying it's only good for military purposes is a tad short sighted. Unless you would rather let Wile make off with your steak?

each year by knives than they are by guns. With your logic no one should ever have a knife, yet they have there place in daily use in most societies, so do guns. However, there is a difference between civilian level weapons and military level and I see no need for civilians to have military weapons unless they are military reservists and they have the weapon assigned to them in case of need, as happens in some European countries.

There is no such thing as a deadly weapon, but there are deadly people. No weapon has ever decided, of its own accord, to jump up and kill people, but people have and have even killed people with no more than their bare hands.

I have what's the problem? Just don't have Electric Detonators out in the open and use a Mobile Phone that's not overly safe. :D

[i]If a lion doesn't have sharp fangs and claws, we don't have to be afraid of it. [/i]

It's a Wild Animal you need to treat all Wild Animals with Caution. For instance would you go an Cuddle a Panda that you ran across in the Bush?

Here in AU we have Koala's a Cute Animal but you run across one in the Wild you should avoid it like the Plague they can Kill though not as fast as a Lion. ;)

[i]That's the point I hold for general public should not possess guns.[/i]

I disagree Guns have never hurt a single person it's people who kill other people, you don't need a Gun to do that something as simple as a Ball Point Pen driven in between the Third & Fourth Rib will kill you faster than any Firearm, and who would be worried about someone walking towards them with a Ball Point Pen?

However if by Gun you mean Assault Rifle or other Military Grade Fire Arm that is a different story. I see no need for anyone outside the Army and Military Collectors to have things like that. Though here the QLD Police have a Museum and in it there is Field Marshals Rommel's Luger that is a lovely weapon and so different from every Luger in the building.

[i]But many the above posters would still like to stop crime with guns by not considering a gunfight could result in even higher toll of lives.[/i]

Strangely enough I do agree with you on that one but again it's people who cause the problems. Many years ago I used to visit a Sheep Property and I had to go out and find a corpse then secure it and call the police in to investigate why this person shot them self accidentally. Apparently you would never understand that you do not crawl under a fence then pull a Shotgun through after you by the barrel with the safety Off as it might go BANG and kill you.

The Guns as you like to call them are simply not an issue it's the people who are holding them when they go BANG that are the real problem. I don't own a Firearm now days I don't actually like them all that much but I'm by no means scared of them, they are a Tool nothing more nothing less. No different to a 24 inch Number 1 Phillips Screwdriver it's a tool necessary for a job but it can also be used as a Lethal Weapon if the person holding it has a mind to do so.

And if I had to go out on another Sheep Farm tomorrow and do something in a paddock I wouldn't hesitate to grab a Rifle to protect myself from being attacked by a pig. Or a cousin who is into Pistol Shooting, Target Competition was surprised when I could get a perfect score the first time I ever handled the weapon that he wanted me to shoot. He was driving me nuts to go out with him to the Range and when I finally relented he didn't believe me that I had never touched a similar weapon previously. OK he realized that I knew a little about Pistols by the way that I handled it but other than the most obvious things like asking where what the different Safety things where and how they worked. I needed to familiarize myself with the tool, unfortunately way too many people when they get any Firearm in their hands think that they are 10 foot tall and bullet proof and are Dangerous to both themselves and those around them.

Col

Sleeping beside explosives? Playing with wild animals? Stupid. You do realize these are all decisions people would make, hence affirming that people kill. Doubt all you like but if a nutball case wants to kill it will happen no matter what methods are ready at hand.

private gun ownership is specifically allowed by the Constitution and govt infringement of same is specifically disallowed.

We are not punishing criminals to the max, far from it. Until we do that further philosophical discussion is silly.

The Guy in Question supposedly had a 100 Round Mag on an Assault Rifle.

Besides destroying the Barrel putting that many rounds through the thing so quickly I see no need for a weapon like that.

It was designed to only do 1 thing and I have yet to run across Members of the Public who need something like that. What's even more concerning is if the Military don't need Magazines like that why would anyone else.

Of course the above post was dripping with Sarcasm not so much to you but to the OP. I can just imagine the mess that would have been made if others in that place returned fire. While I don't have anything to do with Firearms now I do have a mate who is a army surgeon and I do know the damage that weapons like that do, do.

Col

[i]The Aurora movie massacre may have ended differently if a couple of gents in the audience stood up with their handguns as soon as that fool started shooting. Some of the dead may have had a second chance.[/i]

With a smoke filled room and watering eyes I'm sure it would have been completely different. Instead of the few killed & Injured there would have been a lot more and many of the what we will call [b]"Innocents"[/b] would be on trial for shooting other patrons of that theater. The Police would have seized every Firearm even the ones not discharged and done Ballistic Tests on them to see where their Projectiles went. Of course if you hit anyone but the Primary Shooter you're in for a world of Hurt and very long Legal Battle not to mention the loss of any other Fire Arms you may have and very likely a Criminal Record.

The reality most people who have Fire Arms do not know how to use them safely and most certainly are not trained to know what to do in anything but a Great Environment where they have a clear line of sight.

Throw them into a darkened Picture Theater with lots of Fire Arms going off on the screen and then toss in a Tear Gas Grenade and they are effectively blinded to all but the closest Barrel Flash who in that case is just as likely to be another Patron Returning Fire. Don't worry about the running masses of people trying to get out of the road read that as [i]"Line of Fire"[/i] you have the Perfect Recipe for a Disaster.

I've seen way too many Stupid People with Fire Arms who simply should never have been allowed to own a Fire Arm in the first place let alone stick any Ammunition into it to begin with. Way too many people think that they are 10 Foot Tall & Bullet Proof when they have a Fire Arm in their Hot Sweaty Hands and act accordingly, then wonder why they shoot themselves with their own weapons.

Look at Libya recently a Media Crew was interviewing a group of Liberation Fighters who thought that they came under fire and returned fire for 20 minutes only to find out it was another of their party who was shooting into the Air Celebrating [i]another Dangerious Stupid thing to do.[/i] Or the Captured Jet Fighter which was going to be used by the Insurgents[i]?[/i] which was shot down less than 2 minutes into it's first flight by the pilot's Allies because we don't have any aircraft so it's fair game.

A Fire Arm in Undisciplined Hands is just as dangerous as anything else that a Fool is allowed to use, it can Mame and Kill anyone and very rarely does what was intended. ;)

Col

Dickhead left the theater & returned not only with the weapons & ammo but also wearing body armor. Even if anyone else in the theater was armed and they managed to only hit the perp and not other theater-goers, it is doubtful if it would have done any good at all once you realize that they would have had to get a really lucky shot into a seam between the armor elements, have armor-piercing rounds, or a REALLY heavy caliber weapon. A bullet-resistant vest can stop a .357 Magnum round just inches away. How many people are going to be carrying around something more powerful than that?

explaining to survivors as they stagger out the front door that you had guns but didn't feel it was Wise to shoot. After that, go inside and explain it again to the dead.

Your job was to accept the bad situation, come up with an "optimum" solution, and implement it to the best of your ability. That is the best anyone could do.

And PS - you had no way of knowing the shooter had body armor. But several rounds into that and he would have lost his concentration on shooting defenseless people and started searching for you. Some would have escaped because of you.

The problem is that some people use one to justify the other on both sides of the argument. ;)

The reason why that Flint Lock was not possible to be kept by it's owner who had it passed down from his father was because it could be used to Rob a Bank.

What type of Idiot would even consider firing it is way beyond my meager comprehension but to actually say something as idiot as that with a straight face made me wild. Personally I would not consider attempting to fire something like that with in locked in a vice and a string tied to the trigger with myself standing a long way away, let alone taking such a valuable piece anywhere but a exhibition.

I still have swords here and I had some petty bureaucrat come visit me one day when I was sitting down cleaning one, the silly woman ran away screaming something about being attacked and this is while I was behind a locked security screen sitting down with the blade across my legs and rubbing polish onto the blade. The dam thing is a Ceremonial Sword as worn by the current Military while on Parade. I just can not comprehend how some people think let alone stay alive. ;)

Col

It's with the Large Caliber Fire Arms that are available.

A semi 22 is a nice little fire arm that can be useful in the right hands at the right time, however I've seen way too many people who think that because they have a firearm they can do what they want from the bit of using a 12 Gage for Pigs I mentioned elsewhere here to a guy I ran across on my uncles property who was using a 22 for Roos. Not the wallabies but the big roos who he was attempting to shot at too long a distance through an overly powerful scope that he had had fitted to the rifle. He insisted that as he could see the roos he could shoot them but all he managed to do was antagonize them and I had to go around cleaning up after him.

The last time I was on that property I was shooting sheep at the height of a drought where they where too expensive to move, not worth selling and there was no food or water for them so every day we would go out shoot several thousand sheep and go back to the homestead at night reload the spent shells to do the same thing the next day. We used Semi 22's for that but I've seen way too many people who just because they have a fire arm think that it will do anything.

A guy at a range the last time I was there had a 20 Gage and 22 Under and Over Arraignment which was a nice weapon but the 50 X Scope on it to me at least seemed pointless. With the 20 Gage you just sort of point in in the general direction of what you want to hit and pull the trigger so the scope wasn't necessary and the 22 bit couldn't handle the range of the scope it was attached to. It was for something with much more range.

However again I'll say it I'm more concerned about the people I see who own Fire Arms than the actual Weapons themselves.

Col

The only thing I can think of that might give me some pause in the theatre situation is backstop. I don't like pulling the trigger when you don't know what's behind the wall. But if he keeps shooting there really isn't much choice.

There are cases of people having their ribs crushed despite wearing heavy duty body armour, while others hardly notice the effects of lightweight .22 subsonic rounds hitting them while wearing a heavy woollen coat.

No info here that it was a Opening just a Midnight Showing.

If anything that makes the low Body Count even worse and that is the really sad thing here that we can think that way. Maybe I need help as when I first heard the News Reports I thought this is going to be really nasty and sounds like a Higher Body Count that what happened in Norway last year.

I must be hanging around with the wrong people to think like that, way too many Judges, Queens Councils and the like make me think of the worst that can happen rather than anything else. Though I can not help but think of a phrase I heard in a Movie somewhere that goes something like this [b]"Just because you are Paranoid doesn't mean that someone isn't out to get you."[/b] ;)

[i]On the same thought path, I know of no statistical evidence that either an armed citizenry or harsh crime penalties (including the death penalty) reduce crime.[/i]

Not really supposed to cut down Crime as a Judge here told me a while ago. It's more about making the Citizens feel that when someone does something nasty they mistakenly believe that the Purp will be hunted down and punished. It's most defiantly nothing to do with Law & Order but only to make the Public feel better about what is going on. ;)

Col

If I thought I needed to be armed to go somewhere, I wouldn't go there. The 'Stand your ground' crowd might say that I'm knuckling under, or that I'm letting fear dictate my actions. I don't see it as any different from not seeing how close I can drive to the edge of the cliff.

crying and laughing. And guilt over the laughing. That sounds like the time I saw a Koala drop from a tree like an avenging angel on a biologist. Assuming avenging angels scream hideously as they unleash their 3 inch razor like claws. It was an eye opener alright. I don't even know if it was breeding season or just constipation on the little devil's part!