43 replies
by absolutely
You don't really have to memorize it all.
Work is more like an open-book exam or a
homework assignment. Do something else if
you really don't like programming, but not
just because "it would be really hard to
remember all them codes for C++, Java etc."
I mean, sure, it would be really hard, but
really, it isn't necessary, either.
No one memorizes all commands, operations, or parameters for anything, be it a programming language or an OS. Get familiar with the common ones and crack open a book when you need to reference the less frequently used terms.
Programming actually has some artistic elements. No two programmers will write the same code even if they are working toward the same result. One version may be more efficient, the other may be more easily maintained. It all depends on your approach.
Language is not programming, you can learn to program without learning any programming language, personally I think that's the way it should be taught (at least initially) in CS.
Most languages have common keywords anyway, for instance C# and Java are both C based languages.
Learn how to program, after that language is merely translation.
Programming is breaking a 'complex' task into a set of simpler steps.
How 'simple' each step is, and how it can be expressed is syntax and semantics, ie language.
Anything else would be like saying you could only be an author if you wrote in english.
In 8 bit machine code
LDA #00
LDB #06
LOOP:ADD A,#06
DEC B
DJNZ LOOP
in C#
A = 6 * 7
(machine code repeatedly adds 6 seven times)
or
int A = 0;
for(int i=6;i>=0;i--)
{
A += 6;
}
:D
Don't look at it by language.
Write down all the steps for making a cup of coffee.
Turn On Kettle,
Wait til boiled
put coffee in cup
fill cup with water
Can you assume there is water in the kettle
is there a mug full?
What happened when kettle boils
What if it never does (no power)
When is cup full
Milk and sugar
More than one cup required
Two people sharing the kettle or the cup or both
why wait for it to boil before put coffee in cup?
....
That's programming.
by xsubxwooferx
we haven't suffered like you guys.
No H1Bs, outsourcing hasn't really took off etc.
As for job searches, search for a 'technology'
eg Java, C# or VB.net.
Developer, analayst/developer, solution provider, glorified clerk, software engineer...
Lot's of titles for the same job.
Note while I said you don't need a language to learn programming, to get a job you need at least one. :D Personally I'd recommend three, (Procedural, OO and SQL), a scripting language wouldn't be a bad idea as well.
It might look daunting, but if you enjoy programming, you'll pick up the 'sense' of a language, a wee book and the occasional tap of F1 and you'll be away.
Only some sort of HR numpty, would suggest your knowledge was dependant on parroting all the keywords and such.
I can be acceptably productive in a new language inside of two weeks.
by justin james
If you want to see what the demand for any IT area is like, don't look at Chattanooga or Chittamunga, look at Atlanta or Charlotte. They are *desperate* for coders. HEck, even here in Columbia, we are searching nationally (including Canada) for programmers, simply because there are so few qualified people in the area. Part of the problem, is that Columbia is primarily a banking and insurance town, so the programmers here are totally unsuited for what we are hiring (lots of AS/400 and COBOL in the job pool, we need C# and ASP.Net). But yes, in a small town, everything will look skewed. The demand for programmers is astounding. I get more calls from recruiters *today* and I have not even looking for a job, than I did when I was actively job searching even 9 months ago.
J.Ja
I think your looking at this all wrong...
Your looking at going to college as to get a job. That is not what your supposed to do, your supposed to go for what you would like to do. I think you need to re-think your major and figure out what you really want to do, not where you think the jobs will be. Please re-think this. It is your future.
I can't resist the urge -- actually, the first thing you need to do is to decide that you want coffee instead of something else (like tea or hot chocolate). If you want tea, that'd be a different subroutine. :)
How about cream instead of milk or even non-dairy creamer?
How about Sweet'n'Low (or whatever) instead of sugar?
How about a straw?
Do you need to wash the kettle, cup, spoon used for stirring, etc.?
Speaking of a spoon, do you need to include directions on where to get the spoon? Same applies for stir sticks.
What if you have no coffee packs?
Now, what if you did this for Starbucks? Then you get into all the extra coffee flavors and deciding which of them you want made.
a sales assistant at Starbucks. :D
Threading databases, scaling...
It's all in the kitchen, if you can see it.
If you can't you haven't yet learnt to program.
Toast with that sir?
Five slices, hmmm four slots, two full
two 'now' and three on the way sir?
by xsubxwooferx
1. I rather have coffee than them if in morning..
2.I don't really like cream.
3.At restaurant I like sweet n' Low more anyway.
4. I alwyas use a straw.
5.Yes, I need to wash them.
6.If someone new to my house don't know where spoon is I will tell them or get it for them.
7. No coffee packs, No coffee.
by xsubxwooferx
After 30 years I usually have an idea on how to attack a problem. Not always the best idea, sometimes turn out to be complete idiocy.
When I'm new to a problem domain, or to a language / environment.
I go for keep it simple.
Put the window(s) together, sort out menus / buttons. Do open and close.
Get yourself a structure and then start filling in the blanks.
Stub the code (write the method but with no content, maybe a message box function x not implemented).
All sorts of ideas and potential strategies will fall out of this process.
Then you best friend google will come to your aid.
"Fill a list box from db with C#".
You'd have to seriously unlucky not to find a code example that wouldn't at least give you a clue.
Key point though, don't just paste it in and wrench your arm patting yourself on the back, learn how it works.
by xsubxwooferx
by justin james
... then do not get into it. Do yourself the favor. If you do not feel motivated enough to jump right in and get messy without any handholding, and you are just starting, how much are you going to like it when you have to wake up every day and do it or else you go hungry? How much will you like it when you are working 60 hour weeks to get a project done? You won't, you will hate yourself for going this route.
When I was a kid, I wanted this more than anything else in the world. And you know what? I went for it. This was pre-Web days, yet I managed to muddle my way through the Help files and manuals after school, along with taking a few courses at my high school, to become a competant programmer. And even now, 15+ years after that, I still have enough motivation to do it on occassion on the weekends, "just for fun", despite having limited time.
Again, if you are looking for a Web site that will make you "like it more", it sounds to me like you should be thinking of other things to be learning.
J.Ja
by bound4doom
If your only concern is remembering the syntax when coding, then I'd say to you that when you are on the job you can use reference books or do a web search to find the syntax information.
However, I think I read one of your responses to responses that you feel you have problems "getting started" with a program but once you get started you like it. You might want to clarify that somewhat. What kinds of problems do you have? Do you mean getting started with a language? Or do you mean understanding the issue your code needs to solve? Each of these are different issues and would need to be treated differently.
If the problem is that you have problems getting started with a language, then you might just need to relax a bit and give yourself the time and space to learn it naturally. Alternatively, perhaps you aren't truly motivated by this because you are trying to create a "hello world" application which you know is virtually useless. In this second case, try writing something that you think might prove to be a useful tool for you in the future.
If you feel that you have a hard time understanding the requirements you program has to meet, that may be a bit tougher. In this case you might need to focus on softer skills like communications. I've seen plenty of times where a programmer and a business person need a translator (and, yes, both were ostensibly speaking English at the time!).
Perhaps you mean that you understand the requirements, but you find yourself wondering where to start coding. If this is the case, I found that I had (and on rare occasions still do have) this issue. If you have talent as a programmer then as you gain experience you will learn a "programming style" that will guide you on where to start.
Again, I don't know what you mean by "problems", nor do I know what you mean by "getting started". If you clarify these, you might get some better feedback.
If you are still unsure about this, then maybe look for an internship position or part-time job that involves programming. This will help you figure out whether you like it or not. You could also look for similar positions in other technology fields to help you find which one you like most. Be aware, however, that a decent job at one company could be horrible at a different one (and vice-versa).
I will also echo the sentiments of at least one other person. If you don't love the technology, you might want to consider something else. That's why I suggested the internship/part-time position. This will get you a feel for it in a "real" situation.
At a minimum, this "trial" position might get you close to some preople so you can ask them what their job entails, whether they recommend it, etc. Don't be afraid to ask them -- people often love to talk about themselves. If they realize you're a student, it'll probably spark some nostalgiac feelings of when they were in school and searching for their future profession.
That brings to mind another avenue to pursue. See if you can find any programming groups in your area and see if you can come to their meetings. This again gives you direct access to people who are in-the-know and may help you.
As for fields in technology not directly related to programming that may be good for you, that's tough to say without really knowing your personality.
If you are an extrovert, then you might be suited for a help-desk or similar position (but be warned -- if you are an introvert, such a position will seem like a living hell).
You might consider network administration. These people rarely program (except for the occasional login script). Most often they become the people who set up hardware, load the OS and install new software on the machines when it needs done.
Database Administration is another role I've worked in. Depending on your database vendor and your final job, this might require a LOT of "coding" or very little. Either way, some essential tasks will require knowledge of SQL and/or DDL (Data Definition Language).
You might also consider computer-related security degrees. Or even something to get you into an auditor role.
Some other (somewhat indirect) positions you might consider include the following:
* Technology trainer
* Auditor
* Data Communications Specialist
* Graphic Artist (specializing in web graphics)
* Technical Writer (if you have good writing skills; otherwise nix this).
As you can see, there are plenty of alternatives. In fact, a lot of jobs that people normally consider "non-technical" can be done with some kind of technology focus. In the event that you find technology "interesting" but don't want to live and breathe it, pursue one of these other jobs as a career (but with a technology focus, perhaps).
by xsubxwooferx
I have to say that at least part of your answer (getting bored when reading) worries me tremendously with regards to you being a good programmer.
You might consider classes or some other interactive learning method to truly assess how much you enjoy programming.
Another thing to attempt is to take something else you enjoy and try to write a program for some aspect of it.
For example, if you collect stamps, write a program to inventory your stamp collection. If you like watching movies, write a program to inventory your DVD collection. If you enjoy carpentry, write a program to estimate the cost of a project (or perhaps inventory your tools, or your past projects). If you enjoy video games, write a program to keep track of your games and your high scores.
Keep in mind that the purpose of this project is NOT what to have an inventory system or an estimating system. The purpose of this is to get you excited about a programming project so that you'll be more inclined to learn. Perhaps this will encourage you to learn and once you've learned some, you'll be able to maintain your passion.
If, however, you find that even this does not excite you, then I'd say look for a different career. This lack of excitement when programming to help you in something else you like means that you lack all passion for programming. Even if you could learn the programming language, the odds are you'd never be passionate about the project. Unfortunately, in programming, passion counts for a lot.
Also unfortunately, finding your passion is something only you can do. The most any of us here can do is try to point you in some kind of direction.
It sounds as if you are fairly young, possibly even still in high school. If so, you might check with your parents and ask them to help guide you in finding your passion. If not your parents, then a respected teacher or even a respected neighbor or good (and true) friend. These people know you better than any of us here do and would be far more capable of helping you find your passion.
Good luck with your search.
by arg_51
If you do not absolutely love the intellectual challenge of creating good code, change majors. No one is successful forcing their round peg into a square hole. Software development is hard enough when you love what you do; it's impossible if you do not feel the gnawing in the pit of your stomach when someone finds a bug in your code. I take it personally.
doug in Seattle
by mjs1138
Java is a great language to start w/ and Sun has a large set of tutorial that you can play w/. Here's the website:
by xsubxwooferx
by xsubxwooferx
by bound4doom
I would have to agree, with this. Part of being a programmer is continuing to learn and continuing to read. The programming you are learning now will more than likely be obsolete in a few years or at least change. You will be reading for the rest of your life. Every good programmer I know has personal libraries at home that rival some books stores I have been in. Sometimes I have 2 copies of a book one for at home and one for at work. And really I do not read these books because I have to, but because I want to. I enjoy reading them and I continue to enjoy reading them even though I have been reading them for 20+ years. There is also no one book that will ever teach you everything you need to know. This takes experience and years of working with it and several books. What also makes you a good programmer is being able to take something you learned from several books through the years and a lot of other things you learned on your own and make something work.
Also all the work you done on creating this one application, you can't get attached to it. While it may be great when you finish, in a few months to maybe a few years it will be outdated and either need to be upgraded or completely replaced. You have ot think if your willing to do that kind of commitment to programming both the ability to just throw out all your hard work and continue to read huge books and spec for the rest of your life. Not only that you will also reach a point where not only do you read those spec and those books but you will at least need to write those spec for the app you created if not some day a book but at least a user manual. That all comes with the job.
by xsubxwooferx
Well I can't program them things because I don't know how. Only ting I know about programing is what a compiler is.I meant to say is I have trouble reading a book/internet about how to program say in C++ code.Like its wierd to say how it gets boring to me I don't know really how to explain it and I would have hard time remembering what the book is saying and that would get boring to me.Especially if I do it on my own without a teacher which is why I am kinda here to see before I hit Computer Science degree and get the teachers.I also want to know what jobs can I get with CS Degree like being an Auditor/Systems Admin/systems analyst etc..? If it is so.
Java programming interests me more because it seems funner on the outcome or something.C++ seems more of a expert program to me.
Let me clarify my previous suggestion to try programming something related to a hobby you have.
The whole reason I suggested programming those things is that if you are doing this for a hobby you enjoy, you can transfer some of your enthusiasm for the hobby to the programming exercise. The hope would be that this would spark enough interest in you to learn what you need for programming these things. This would let you judge your interest and ability in programming.
I don't know what languages you've tried to learn (looks like C++ and Java), but it could be that you are having a hard time with the language. If you still wish to try programming, I suggest you try learning Visual Basic (also called VB) or Pascal. These are generally considered to be the two languages relevant to PCs that are most easily learned.
I have to say, though, that it is sounding more and more like maybe you should look at something other than programming.
As for these alternate careers, there are lots of ways you can go. Depending on where you are going to college (and possibly your finances), you might enroll without a specified major and start asking various instructors what kind of jobs you might get with what degrees.
Another thing to consider is to find and take a test to see what your aptitudes are. There used to be a test called ASVAB (Armed Sevices Vocational Aptitude Battery) that attempts to measure both your capability and interest in certain areas. I don't know if it is still around or not, but it is an example of the kind of testing I mean. However, be aware that the ASVAB is (or was) a precursor to military service. If you aren't interested in recruiters calling you, don't take the ASVAB, look for something else.
I have seen some self-help career guide books that do the same kind of thing as well. Certain colleges may offer this kind of testing as well (some may require some version of it for admission).
Regardless of how you take the tests, they give you several scores, one in each of the areas the tests measure. These areas can include mathematics, communication, spatial recognition, mechanical aptitude, etc.
In the case of some of the books I've seen, you take their tests and calculate your score in each area. You can then use your scores in each area to look up some of the jobs you might be good at. Usually you take your top skill area (or top two or three combination) to look up what jobs you might be suited for.
Even if you don't take the tests, the list of jobs in such a book might help you figure out what is out there.
However, I will warn you that virtually any field related to technology requires a strong commitment to learning. Learning in this industry is a necessity for survival in the industry. Unfortunately, companies won't like the idea of sending you to daytime classes to constantly improve your skills, so you'll have to find some way to continue your learning on your own.
by xsubxwooferx
Neither the Chattanooga nor Chippamauga chamber of Commerce Job Applications web site provides any measure of how to plan one's life.
The world beckons and you'll never have a better chance. You can always, and easily, come back. But getting away will get harder and harder.
How old are you?
by xsubxwooferx
by xsubxwooferx
At 18, the majority of us have no idea what or how we'll end up doing.
In Australia, for example, the very large majority of uni undergraduates do not end up having anything to do with the course that they originally studied (in terms of career, I mean. They may and probably will maintain a passing interest).
Now, you may well be an extraordinary individual that is so focussed upon what you want to do.
I doubt it, and my reason? In another post you asked one writer "[i]I have heard programming jobs are going to India -is this true?"[/i] (please excuse the paraphrasing - I'm too lazy to cut and paste!).
I've met extraordinary and highly focussed individuals in many different areas, and they wouldn't give a fark. They know what they want and don't care how hard it may be to get it.
But my supposition could be incorrect. You still may be that person.
So, if you are incredibly focussed and extraordinary - GO TRAVEL. You'll be better for it, more wordly (ask any non-Yank about the difference between an American who has travelled and an American who hasn't - it's huge). Generally more open to other's ideas and that will make you a better developer in the long run.
If you're still having real questions about what it is you want to do - GO TRAVEL. You'll learn more about yourself and your response to other people and events around you. (Unless you're rich) you will, by necessity, have to do a few different things to pay the hostel fees. You'll be better for that, too.
You're 18 for chrissakes !! Live on the edge just a little bit!! Your whole thread is about being safe and comfortable: "what's best for my career? Will there be jobs?".
Did you sit on your granddad's knee and hear stories of far off places? Yes? Follow his footsteps. No? Give your grandkids something special to look forward to.
Go google this and be very afraid ...
[i] And he wore a hat
And he had a job
And he brought home the bacon
so that no-one knew [/i]
60 years of suburbia to look forward to, friend. Go travel.
1) I don't respond to peer mails from members who will not accept them. If you want to send them, be willing to accept them. Go to your profile and enable private messages.
2a) Before you peer mail someone with a question, you may want to check their profile. Click their member name and see if they have any experience in the area you're asking about.
2b) I'm in support. The last programming I did other than a couple of Excel macros was in COBOL in 1995. I don't know whether Java or C++ is in heavier use, but I can tell you both of them are used more than COBOL these days :-)
by xsubxwooferx
>>Will programming be going towards India in the future?
Quite frankly, if you are that worried about programming work going to India, you might want to consider a different line of work than programming.
This concern indicates that you are not truly dedicated to being a programmer. It seems you are looking for a "safe" career and are concerned about there not being enough safety in programming if it is all going to India.
Truth is, a lot of programming IS going to India (and already has). It is also going to China, Russia, various other countries in eastern Europe and just about anywhere those in charge of companies can get programmers with a lower salary than anyone in the U.S. could reasonably live on.
About the only place that I haven't heard much about off-shoring going to is Antartica. And the only reason it doesn't go there is that penguins don't program.
With the level of interconnectedness we have nowadays, via the Internet, programming can (theoretically) be done from anywhere. So, the businesses in their search for almighty profits look to where they can pay the least and still get the work done. That's a constant threat to any U.S. programming job.
That said, it also seems (depending on which study you look at) that the need for programmers is higher now than ever before.
The problem is that you have to have the right skills. Even worse, those skills are constantly changing, forcing people to constantly learn new skills.
I can't count how many times I've told people, "Give me a little time to look at this seeing as I don't know how to do exactly what you are looking for." Thing is, I learn a way of getting them something at least close to what they want; often in a matter of hours or days at most. In the process, I'm usually learning something new.
If you really want to have a job you can truly say is "safe", then you'll want to look in the services sector, not technology. Another relatively safe choice would be the crafts (plumbing, electrical, carpentry, etc.).
by jmgarvin
by xsubxwooferx
by swhitlock
That's something I noticed in the UK as well, not just with CS either.
At the point you decide you are going to take a degree, you should have enough of a foundation to know whether you are going to like it or not. The fact that you can get surprised indicates a major failure in earlier education.
As for the lifetime of education, I never had any plans to stop learning and education does not have to be formal after a certain point, though it does keep HR numpties happy.
Taking a degree to fill a hole that exists in the job market now, is a recipe for disaster. It's the sort of nipplehead idea careers advisers come out with.
Take one because you like it, your good at it and you want to be better. With that behind you, you can make your own 'market'.
Specifically you'll take a job off the numpty who listened to their careers advisor a few years ago.
by xsubxwooferx
by xsubxwooferx
by xsubxwooferx
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