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Is IT a sinking ship?

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by lumbergh77

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A few years ago, my dad asked me what I would do if suddenly, all computers disappeared, and I had to find a new line of work. I laughed at him and said that'll never happen, there will always be plenty of work in computers. I thought my career was secure and I had nothing to worry about. I figured I'd find that 50-60 K a year job in a few years and someday make 6 figures as a programmer. Now I look back and shake my head at how naive I was.

Back then, there were tons of opportunities and high paying jobs in this field. Most of the high paying jobs are gone. There are few opportunities unless you're a good saleperson and/or have a lot of connections. And even when you do find a job, you have to deal with the same politics that managers and other business people have to deal with. And they're making the same amount of money (or more) without having to know as much!

It's amazing how many disgruntled people are in this field. The negativity on this board is astounding. There are people with degrees, certifications, and experience, and still having trouble finding a job. It's a damn shame that there are a whole lot of people in their 40s and 50s who have worked their asses off this field and can't find work.

Some of you speak of keeping your skills up to date. It's a crapshoot. Unless you have a secure job, how do you know what skills are you supposed to be learning? There are so many things to know that it's impossible to focus on everything. By the time you become an expert in something, it's already passe. Employers don't want to train you. They expect you to have all of the skills that they require.

If there's no money OR job security in this field, and you have to spend many hours a week studying for certifications outside of work just to (hopefully) stay afloat for a few more years, and you have to deal with the same politics as everyone else, what is the point? Not to mention that the schools are pumping out thousands of graduates per year....

If you're a manager, you have politics to deal with but you don't have to spend countless hours outside of work passing certification tests.

If you're an independent HVAC repairman, you have to know your stuff but the technology doesn't change as nearly as much as IT. And you don't have office politics to deal with.

IT people are expected to know everything that there is to know about computers, be excellent communicators, deal with politics, etc.

So what do you do? Continue to devote thousands of hours on your own time learning skills that may or may not help you in the future? Start over and go into a new field? If you learn how to be a bricklayer, you may not make as much money (assuming you're lucky enough to be employed in IT), but at least you don't have to re-certify every 3 years.

72 replies

by oz_media

And I have said it myself much to people's horror many times.

There are TRADES and there are certs, certs being called trades is weak.

You can make money as a mechanic or bricklayer because not everyone has a shop at home or a place to build houses out of brick for fun. Computers? Everyone has one and everyone is GETTING savvy with them now. IT will soon just be a high school credit (as it is already becoming) that is no different that learning English or math. Not a specialty trade as many still think it is.

The number of MCSE's running around complaining about the market is going to sound like people saying "Hey I passed grade 12! Why won't anyone give me a job, I PASSED grade 12 for god's sake!"

I am an MCNE not by choice but because an employer paid for it (and it was on the nice Novell training cruiseship program, too cool!).

I am also a licenced mechanic, as IT $$ dwindles, the automotive Journeyman's wage inrceases, unionized and all that.

So while I turned my back on a 'working man's' trade for easier work, I find myself realizing that hard work still pays more and as for the future...well it just technology that keeps changing and getting cheaper every year.

Notice that cars aren't any cheaper though? You pay more at the shop now?

The Discovery channel had a show on the other day that was about Water Theme park designing. They showed how all of this outstanding engineering is done on computers that could never have been done before.

Then they had to build a mock model to prove the software gave them the right information, that consisted bricks and mortar in a warehouse with little blow up boats in it.

They showed how the water jets at another park had been intricately designed by high end CAD software and by skilled Autocad engineers. Then they showed three guys, all grubby and greasy with little welders beanies on, who were actually bulding the mechanical mock-ups.

No matter what it is they can design, it still takes skilled labour, engineers, Tig welders, mechanics, and masons, to actually build the damn thing.

Computers aid in designing these wonderful places, PEOPLE WITH REAL SKILLS build them. Excluding of course the skilled autocad enineers that got jobs...both of them.

SO with the TWO or THREE highly skilled CAD techs that actually designed it, there were literally hundreds if not thousands who actually BUILD it.

They make HUGE money building it, it provides WAY more jobs than the design process did, and then thy need even more guys to run out and reweld, retorque and fix these rides as the computer shows it is due for repair.

Computers replace some people but we still rely on skilled tradesmen to make it all a reality.

by oz_media

After 4 years in an automotive apprenticeship, I had to go back in order to stay current on new electronics used in specific manufacturers cars, Honda and Ford trucks.

As a machinist, you have to relearn new CAD equipment and keep your skills upto date, otherwise new journeymen get the jobs.

My father was a multiple certified tradesman, as a marine engineer it was constantly changing, even as a mason, machinist and engineer he had to constantly stay up to date on new techniques, materials and compounds. There is JUST as much book work, usually MORE time needed IN school to get certified s a journeyman and just as many days with grunt work before you reach your goal, then it is a matter of staying there.

As a sales manager I found the exact same thing, you need to constantly be on top of your game, have the latest competetive information memorized, put up with office politics and long hours, deal with staff in a rut, etc.

So while you are right in that it SEEMS that IT staff have a greater burden they really don't, in fact it is pretty easy as far as WORK is concerned, not too often do you visit the doctor to have a processor removed from your face.

When the boss or CO's go home it doesn't mean they no longer deal with work, in many cases even a trip to the pub will be a long worknight when all is said and done.

The thing I DO agree with though is money, IT does not have the same value it once did, as EVERYONE does it now, high pay and the big rise in the 80's and 90's just saturated the industry, it is now no different than a secretarial, HR or any other administrative position (Not to diminish thier role) but it is just another job that many people hav the common skills to compete for.

Reduce competition and you earn more money, always! Choose your trades wisely and you will alwys be employed and always make the money I guess.

by salamander

...Having a backup skill/trade/profession (or two or three) is almost a requirement, anymore. Right, wrong, or indifferent, the days in which a person could expect to be employed at the same company for 30 years and retire are gone far behind us. The spoils will go to those who are agile enough to adapt as circumstances demand, whether it means keeping feverish pace with their current industry, or seeking out new ones.

As a humorous side note...among my many other backup plans in unrelated areas, I am looking into becoming certified as a hypnotist. Do I expect to work full-time at this if I go through with it? Probably not; it's mostly for my own amusement and edification, as well as a good conversation topic at parties. But it would be just one more egg in another basket, in the event that somebody trips me and breaks the other eggs I'm carrying.

Life is a journey; it doesn't remain static, and neither, it seems, can we.

by oz_media

Don't practice in the mirror unless you have someone around to 'snap' you out of it.

by dafe2

It is growing.......just not in the sense most are used to it.

However I do agree (and have said it before) IT today is thinning out the 'dead wood'.

Those that think that building PC's & desktop support was 'IT' in the past are gone. Those that think owning a PC or being able to build a PC is 'IT' are history. Those that think understanding just the OS such as Windows or Linux or even Novell is 'IT' are gone. Understanding Networking isn't ennough anymore either.

There's a bigger 'IT' picture out there....those that understand THAT have a future and a job in IT.

To put it another way.....building a cabinet or fixing your car does not make you a carpenter or a mechanic.

You should allways have another skillset to bolster or specialize your IT knowledge.

by oz_media

You bake one loaf of bread, they call you a baker.

You darn one sock, they call you a tailor.

You suck one ****, they call you a.... :D

Couldn't resist

by peter choi

IT development is sometimes encouraging when the knowledge itself is getting more acceptable to general public. For example video editing used to be a job in studio and now everyone can do it (digital cameras, large storage, fast computers and some software). Your job is at stake.
You can specialize yourself in IT. Yet better work more on the management side. Being too technical is never good way to go as some days (not months) later everybody will be technical too.

==================
http://pccm.blogspot.com
A typical Hong Konger sees a dim future ahead. That's why I am working
harder to gain an edge under this adverse circumstance.

by av .

Its never coming back either. I was like you too. I thought I would have a good job forever in IT. I never thought it would go away. Boy, was I wrong!

I think IT can no longer stand on its own. It was good back then but its over as we knew it. It has to be IT and something else now.

I think the IT profession has always been held to higher standards than other white collar professions. You used to be paid for it, but now the work has become devalued because of better software and globalization. And, of course, nobody is getting any younger.

To me, it just is not prudent to focus strictly on IT anymore because it isn't enough in today's world. You can't make any money unless you have business skills. Out with the geek, in with the business-savvy IT person.

Its a new era. Being a bricklayer wouldn't be ruled out if I loved doing it. Personally, I think it would be a hard transistion, too much manual labor and no intellectual stimulation. Very creative though.

You need to be an IT person with a specialty in _______.

by dafe2

"You can't make any money unless you have business skills. Out with the geek, in with the business-savvy IT person."

You need to be an IT person with a specialty in BUSINESS PROCESSES.

by cloudedyoda

specialise on Business Processes? In terms of degree, would Masters with Information Systems specialisation be sufficient?

by oz_media

"I think the IT profession has always been held to higher standards than other white collar professions."

When working in OTHER white collar positions, IT staff have always been seen as people who hold themselves at higher standards.

'In the IT community' it was a higher standard than other white collar jobs, not to other white collar employees though.

No matter how much they patted you on the back and said you were god, they always thought the IT guy was just some geek with no social skills that click keys for the company everyday.

It's not just IT though. Guys in the warehouse think the company would grind to a halt without them, so do the receptionists who remember the bosses wife's birthday every year, so do the sales reps who bring all th efood back from the hunt.

Once IT has settled into just another administrative office job, like the secretary, AR clerk, trainer etc. things will settle and even out to where they should be.

I have never been 'proud' to be the company IT guy nor ever felt that I held the place together or was more esteemed than others. In fact I would go out of my way to show I wasn't a 'computer guy' (they usually don't end up with the girl like in the movies).

Perhaps why I don't feel let down by a crumbing empire the way some do who felt they had GOD status years ago. I've thought it was an overrated 'career' all along, it was just a matter of time until people caught on I guess.

by dafe2

Your exactly right.....a lot of 'Techs' out there believed their 'own press'. (For whatever reason)

Now, reality is setting in. Those that have street smarts and people skills are the long term type that will carry forward in IT.

It is those people who can COMMUNICATE and appreciate people for who they are - Be it the Janitor or the CEO.

These types can communicate ideas. (Assuming they know what there doing of course.)

Some may call them righteous......but they're ideas nonetheless......isn't that right Oz?

by av .

I'm definitely not a GOD, not even close, but I'm always working when lots of other white-collar types are not. Take for example, the holiday season.

Everyone else is enjoying lots of office parties and everything else and I'm dragging cables around. There is a big difference.

Yes, cable dragging is part of the job, but the job doesn't allow for socializing. Every other white collar job enjoys their lunch hours and holiday parties but you can't do that because someone somewhere has a problem. That is what I mean by a higher standard. You have to be willing to accept that. Thats part of the job.

You're right when you say you think everyone thinks their job is important. All of them are, but the fact is that if the systems aren't working, many people can't do their jobs. Thats a huge responsibility to have on your shoulders that most white collar jobs don't have. They are only responsible for themselves. Downtime is big money.

It isn't fair. If IT is just like any other job, why don't I see this dedication in other white collar jobs?

Maybe there are some people that just rest on their laurels in our profession, but many go the extra mile and are never rewarded. They are laid off instead. They are the Gods. They earned the title.

by dude_euro

I have to agree. I am one of those that is starting over - on my terms. I am fortunate to be able to leave a job (t-o-o much stress that was affecting my health). To top that - there are so many disgruntled IT folks out there working long hours etc. - that it is becoming a shame.

You are right the job of IT is no longer fix the box and move on. It has become increasingly more political and that the low-end and high-end workers will stay (PC tech's and exec's) to run the place as many other tasks will be outsourced (to be read off-shored) as the fervor for such activity diminishes in the news/gov't. So many companies are looking at the bottom line with outsourcing of AP/AR/call center/network monitoring etc. being done by companies that have the capacity to do so. Kaiser outsources much of their network monitoring and repair of the Cisco type boxes. Other companies have taken a look at the outsourcing of much of IT - including desktop support. (The logic is that many of these folks have been around a while, making near/at/over $100,000 with real or perceived low value for their efforts). Some companies (becoming more popular) are actually re-classifying jobs so that instead of 10 they now need 6. Those 10 need to re-apply for their jobs - making 4 redundant.

HIPAA, Security and SOX has not been a boom or grail that it was hoped for. Companies have looked inside to IT or business analysts as much of this work is more interpreting and recommending. Then the coders can take it from there to make proper corrective action. (Think about it for a bit - if a company has outsourced it's Cisco config/security, then it can leverage it's own economies to estblish changes for many). Many of these companies engage companies like ISS or have a consultant like Deloitte who will also recommend solutions.

Accounting firms are also being asked to complete surveys (mostly SOX here) but it could end up like Andersen who was recommending it's own consulting group to make fixes (stem of their problems). Some - that I have spoken with - do not want the liability; enter the Verizon's, IBM's, etc of the world. One should read one of these engagement letters to get the full-breadth of what they are responsible for - it is a letter of absolution because many cannot assess mainframe apps etc...

(Forgive the tirade... these are my observations, experience and assessment).

btw, this is my assessment of the situation. Strangely, I am back doing a contract job from what I left.

by dude_euro

I have to agree. I am one of those that is starting over - on my terms. I am fortunate to be able to leave a job (t-o-o much stress that was affecting my health). To top that - there are so many disgruntled IT folks out there working long hours etc. - that it is becoming a shame.

You are right the job of IT is no longer fix the box and move on. It has become increasingly more political and that the low-end and high-end workers will stay (PC tech's and exec's) to run the place as many other tasks will be outsourced (to be read off-shored) as the fervor for such activity diminishes in the news/gov't. So many companies are looking at the bottom line with outsourcing of AP/AR/call center/network monitoring etc. being done by companies that have the capacity to do so. Kaiser outsources much of their network monitoring and repair of the Cisco type boxes. Other companies have taken a look at the outsourcing of much of IT - including desktop support. (The logic is that many of these folks have been around a while, making near/at/over $100,000 with real or perceived low value for their efforts). Some companies (becoming more popular) are actually re-classifying jobs so that instead of 10 they now need 6. Those 10 need to re-apply for their jobs - making 4 redundant.

HIPAA, Security and SOX has not been a boom or grail that it was hoped for. Companies have looked inside to IT or business analysts as much of this work is more interpreting and recommending. Then the coders can take it from there to make proper corrective action. (Think about it for a bit - if a company has outsourced it's Cisco config/security, then it can leverage it's own economies to estblish changes for many). Many of these companies engage companies like ISS or have a consultant like Deloitte who will also recommend solutions.

Accounting firms are also being asked to complete surveys (mostly SOX here) but it could end up like Andersen who was recommending it's own consulting group to make fixes (stem of their problems). Some - that I have spoken with - do not want the liability; enter the Verizon's, IBM's, etc of the world. One should read one of these engagement letters to get the full-breadth of what they are responsible for - it is a letter of absolution because many cannot assess mainframe apps etc...

(Forgive the tirade... these are my observations, experience and assessment).

btw, this is my assessment of the situation. Strangely, I am back doing a contract job from what I left.

by oz_media

Ihave been doing that for 6 years now without a cert.

I go into a company, work for 4-6 weeks in various areas and look for ways to use technology to streamline processes, enhance efficiency and retain revenue, all areas of the company.

Sorta like a 'consultant-of-all-trades'!

I have an MCNE, Sales, marketing and administrative experince, no degree. But I am also a pretty persistent person who sells his ideas to employers. I get paid for the consulting (usually a percentage of the revenue savings with the percentage depending on the amount of revenue of course), and also get paid by vendors for the equipment sale, service contract etc. I will then monitor and manage the system and work with staff for a while to ensure it is being implemented properly. Someitmes F/T sometimes temporary.

It isn't brain surgery it's jus a little ingenuity to make things better and get some different revenue streams coming in.

by oz_media

Gotcha!!!

Just kidding :D

Did you ball a fist and clentch your teeth before clicking the link to read it?

Have a good weekend, LOL :D:D:D:

by tony hopkinson

While I'm earning less than I was, the amount I was earning was stupid compared to what I did. I enjoyed it while it was happening, but that wasn't the norm this is. I've noticed this a lot with my younger colleagues who started in the boom, they only see the drop, I remember the rise.

As for staying current, I'm not now, and based on past experience I never will be. If I went off and got a badge, convinced someone that the badge plus my old experience meant I could do it, and then did it. By the time I had enough experience to not need the badge, I'd be out of date.

Must confess if all the computers disappeared, that would be a problem career wise. Kill my other career choice of mars colonist stone dead as well. My daughter's bloke is a plumber though and I'm quite handy at that so I'll go work for him, there's a shortage of plumbers in the UK and he's got his own mint at the moment.

by oz_media

Plumbing is a tough yet high paying trade.
The trick is all in building the plumbers butt though.

As for getting badges it will never work, my dad always said you need to wear a lot of hats, not badges!

by tony hopkinson

I can keep a pencil there without clenching, got to drop the habit of chewing them though LOL.

Haven't got a badge to my name, They aren't completely useless, but until you use any tool in anger, all you know is how to recognise it.

by garion11

Thats where the opportunities are. In fact there is a tremendous amount of nurse shortage in US and male nurse fresh out of college is commanding 50+.

by tony hopkinson

we are bringing in nurses from the 3rd world. German GPs are flying in on weekends, because our guys only want to work 9-5. Plumbing is a case in point. Everybody went in to IT and media studies. Son-in-law, tells me plumbers are on 50 GBP per hour in London for putting a washer in someones tap. Plus callout fee ! If they ask for a whole new heating system, you can buy next door and cut down your transport overheads.

Where did I put that tap spanner ?
LOL

Sort of reminds you of another industry once upon a time doesn't it.

by garion11

I graduated in 2001 from a tech school (was in college during the IT boom, unfortunately) and what a joke this field turned into. If it isn't outsourced...it is contracted work. No benefits, no career path, no training, nothing. I feel like I wasted 4 years of my life...but a lesson learned.

by maxwell edison

.
There is absolutely no way you wasted 4 years of your life. Don't fall into the trap of pessimism that snags too many unsuspecting victims. If there's one thing that separates Democrats and Republicans it's that Democrats tend to victimize everybody and everything, while Republicans are more prone to taking full and total self-responsibility for their lives. Don't be a victim.

Absolutely everything you do in life is setting you up for the next opportunity -- absolutely everything. Your last four years have been anything but a waste, but rather a vital component in making the next step possible. Don't dwell on what isn't anymore, but rather on what's now possible.

If you look back over the past 100 years, you'll see that absolutely every business sector has had peaks and valleys. You'll find that absolutely every new trend or technology has had periods of exuberance followed by periods of rationality. Look at it logically. Logic will tell you that in the span of time when people and companies were becoming "computerized" for the first time, that an "exuberance" would take it sky-high. We're merely in a period of rationality, but the opportunities are still unlimited.

IT is anything but dead. It's alive and vibrant and ripe for people with initiative and drive to be successful. Don't agree with the doom-and-gloomers. Don't even discuss it with them. Don't even listen to them. When confronted with a negative-thinker, turn around and run -- run away from that poison as fast and as far as you can. They only serve to drag you down into the quicksand of doom-and-gloom. And you, Garion, are too damned smart to listen to such nonsense.

Try to develop the habit of looking for what is possible instead of what's not. Try to establish the mind-set of can instead of can't. And try to always see the opportunities, not the obstacles. You do those things, and you will indeed discover that everything you achieve in life is only a stepping-stone, and is setting you up for the next. Stay focused on that, and it will indeed come to pass.

Are you a Star Trek fan? Do you know the Vulcan saying, "Live Well and Prosper"? Well, my friend, "Think Well" and you will indeed prosper.

by garion11

I guess I used a poor choice of words...Yes it wasn't a waste...I definitely learned in the last 4 years which has helped me to gain this new job of a Field Service Tech in the medical industry (talk about stability, lol). You see I was out of a job for about close to a year combined that with lack of growth in THIS sector for the last 2 years or so... and wondering at what else I could have acheived if I had gone into another field...and the frustration boiled over.

I never experienced the wave of IT so to speak...but your post on the Hydrogen cars and the upcoming innovations in transportation, in addition to other articles I read about...its safe to say I had the wrong idea on IT. You are right...IT is not dead...it has changed.

by redragtoabull

"Take the most difficult challenge you are now facing and turn it into the greatest opportunity to grow simply by changing how you see it. Dead ends then become turning points."

~Bob Perks~

by maxwell edison

.
If that's what you think, yes, absolutely it is. In which case, you should jump ship and swim away as fast and as far as you can, lest you get sucked down by the vortex of its rapid descend. After all, you don't have to be another E. J. Smith.

by maxwell edison

.
Ouch - I missed it. And I call myself a Star Trek fan? I should be ashamed. I should be transported into deep space to wander aimlessly for all eternity, until I get sucked into a black-hole, of course.

You're right, I got it wrong. Thank you very much.

by ecunning

From what I have read on your letter, it?s making me think twice whether if I should pursue a career in the IT field. Right now I?m majoring in Computer Networking, this is my third year in college, but I?m getting this knot in my stomach if will be able to pay my student loan for getting this degree. I have one more year to go. Any suggestions would be gladly appreciated.

From Lizzy

by oz_media

If you believe it is a tough market and you can't succeed, you most definitely will be right.

If you believe it is an open door and are willing to explore the field and get your feet wet in order to get where you want, you will succeed.

Where you may go wrong in choosing a psecialty and lookign to target a specific are a of IT, it just may not be available to you.

It would be a good project to discover the types of business in your area, if they are small, medium or large companies and figuring out your plan of attack from there.

For example, when living in a bigger city, there were it jobs for all specialties available, as the departments were much bigger and they hired specialty staff, but I fear these specialists won't last as the markets change.

Where I live now, there is a lost more small business or branches of sall businesses. Therefore a broader knowledge is apprecaited, VNP and VoIP technilogy is HUGE because small branches are spread out over the island.

There is a TONNE of opportunity in IT, I simply don't know where to go next in many cases as once you open your focus up a bit, IT jobs are simply everywhere.

IT is not going anywhere, don't expect it to be like the millionaire stories of the past but it certainly isn't a dead not dying industry, just for those who have made it that way I think.

Hang in there, good luck! Be prepared to do whatever it takes to pay off that student loan even if not in IT all the time, mine was nearly 130K all done (not in IT) and took a lifetime to pay off it seems.

My student loan is actually what got ME into IT, I took a sales management job to help pay off my BCIT loan (for Automotive training) and was asked to take over network admin, with no experience at all of course. Many years later, I an an MCNE and have paid off that loan and now work at home.

Just make sure you are willing to work, and you will find your IT career quite a lot of fun in the end. Who knows, maybe you will be fixing cars to pay you IT loan off! :D Just kidding, not to many poeple are quite as insanely unfocused as me.

by maxwell edison

.
....It's Alright -- the IT field, that is. (Thank you, Bob.)

Look at it this way, these are the kinds of negative-thinking people who will be your competition. Anyone with even the slightest bit of optimistic outlook can turn circles around them.

by ecunning

I am so relieved, after reading several comments from several people; it feels like the burdened has been lifted. I guess I just needed to hear from others about their experiences and perspective in the IT field. I know there?s a lot of negative spin about the IT industry due to outsourcing; I think I will stick with it.

by tony hopkinson

,stick with it. I started as a gopher splitting up computer printouts and making my boss tea, now I'm a senior software engineer. Your qualifications may buy you a job, but enthusiasm, talent and desire definitely will.

I made it and I haven't got any recognised IT qualifications at all.

Go for the experience, then the money will come.
Not great big bundles of it, but enough.

P.S. if you haven't already considered it, a job of any sort in real world IT during the holidays will be worth a lot to you. Your university must have a network, see if they'll let you help out. You potter about while they concentrate on building up their next D&D character.

Either way it will fill up your first cv, which will be annoyingly sparse initially.

P.P.S Don't tell them how they should be doing it. Ask them why they don't.

by dafe2

You know what they say about believing ('everything' you read).

If I were you I'd stick with it. Build relashionships with some of the IT staffers at the University if you haven't done so already. They probably know a lot of people in business & government & would be a good source for leads.

Does your University offer Co-op programs or internships & could you make use of these ressources to get to know peers? They could be a valuable source for good job leads as well.

Government & big business are crying for talented grads & as time goes on and bigger & more sophisticated networks get out there (or are in planned stages) your skills become more valuable.

With your degree behind you & gathering up (real world skills) you could also be of value as systems architect.

As well, if you can, try to bolster your degree with (Professional) selling or project managemnent skills. Courses & seminars are (usually) offered at Universities in the evenning.

As someone else said, most of your competition have bad attitudes.....keep your chin up & don't worry about it right now. ;-)

by salamander

Remember, a person creates his or her own reality, to a very large extent.

If you love what you do, odds are, you'll be good at it. Employers will take notice of a "can-do" attitude. Though that's not something you'll ever get certified on, it's worth a lot.

That's not to say that you won't have challenges. I'm not trying to insinuate that IT or any other field is full of sunshine and fluffy clouds...there is no field without its obstacles. You can get through them with perseverence. The other posters here have given you good advice. Don't give up.

by ecunning

I am so relieved, after reading several comments from several people; it feels like the burdened has been lifted. I guess I just needed to hear from others about their experiences and perspective in the IT field. I know there?s a lot of negative spin about the IT industry due to outsourcing; I think I will stick with it.

by momtojustin

I've never had to deal with politics in my IT jobs, event hough I am politically active.

I think you see the glass as half empty. I used to work in human services. When I got out of it, I didn't think I would use those skills in IT. Well, I sure did. Knowing psychology really did help me in IT, and also serves me well in my interest in foster care and adoption of older boys.

I don't mind the constant learning in IT, either, because I see what happens to people when they stop learning--it's the old saying of use it or lose it. I see once vital older people start going into a form of...dementia, I guess. It is sad. Yet, I also see older people who never stop learning dodge this problem.

Renee

by vanight

The reality which we all know is that we have been living in a dream. We are fallout of the crooked startup deals and attempts at getting rich quick without doing any work. Those people know who they are.

I feeling is that we are in a period of "shedding off the rip RAF". The bottom line for MOST companies is that you know what your doing, can figure out what you don't know, and can bring positive vibes to the group. The days of the paper thin IT wanna be's being able to walk around like Kings are over. We all know those IT people who ride on the tail coats of others and try to hide in the shadows. They are history, and really its better for the industry in the long run. The downside for this is that it will be quite a bit more challenging for aspiring technology geeks to break in IF they are only doing it because they think its a good job and have think computers are neat. You see, for me and many others technology has been a labor of love, something we lived eat breathed at one point in our lives. Some of us started as far back as adolescence gaining knowledge and spent YEARS of our own time learning because we are obsessed with it. We are recovering from a polluted industry and I am afraid that there may only be room for TOP people going ahead in the future. Though certification are nice, what you know is still the bottom line and now instead of convincing a non technical clueless HR person of what we know, we are convincing real veterans who have survived the "IT cleansing" of the new millennium. Anyway, I am really not as weird as some of my statements may suggest but I wanted to get my point and possibility across.

Later!

David

by tony hopkinson

You must be a member of the "Well if you're going to throw a punch, there's little point in pulling it" school
LOL

In the same vain.

If you chose to go into IT because "That's where the smart money is", well I'm afraid the smart money took all the life boats and ****** off sometime ago. Only those who enjoy sailing and bailing left, and we haven't got the energy or the inclination to deal with passengers. Go into business and buy the ship, with your IT background you'll have and edge as when we shout "Berg on the port bow" you'll know what we mean.

by maxwell edison

.
The reality which we all know is the reality that we create for ourselves. If you have a dream, you should pursue that dream with all your vigor. Some people are the fallout of the crooked and twisted naysayers and their attempt to get others to join them in their misery. Those people know who they are.

I have a feeling that we are in a period of great change, and with change always comes opportunity......

by av .

Its job experience of any kind. What if you waited tables during school or did landscaping or data entry. You now have an understanding of business processes in that industry and an understanding of the unique problems each of them faces.

If you concentrate in an area that you have worked in, even if it was a menial job, that experience will help you to understand the business process in that industry. It will help you to help them make their process better. I think a degree can give you the mechanics, but you can't fully understand how to fix a process until you've worked in it.

For example, I am an IT manager for a law firm. Many years ago when I was in high school, I worked part time as a legal secretary. I vowed, at that time, to never work at a law firm again. But I was wrong. Today, my experience then as a legal secretary has proven to be very helpful in my current position. I was able to understand the legal "culture" and also what their business processes were. Two very valuable lessons.

You can't learn everything in school.

by james.chau

Computer programming is not a fad, it is a profession that has discreet cost and revenues that depend on the tasks required of the executables. Because of the nature of the tasks, it is very difficult to pin a tag such as $60K or $120K per annum. When the IBM mainframe was the prevalent platform for computer programming, the average pay was from 15% less than a first line manager to 10% less than a director with 10 years experience. It is a well known fact that there are literally tons of IT work that need to be done but not enough quality people to do them. Problem logs everywhere were huge, and they impacted the companies severely in North America, the problem was the education system was unable to pump out enough quaility people (or perhaps responsible also) to work in IT. A damning decision was made to outsource these problem logs related computer services and infrastructures to companies such as the big-5, IBM, EDS, etc., when that happens all these companies had given up their strategic competitiveness for short term gains. As a result many of these outsourced companies became take over targets or went out of business. IT is more than a department, it is part of a modern business entity which cannot be managed as a minor corporate element headed by a CIO. In time, perhaps another 2 years, if what I see is correct, IT is going through maturation and will be much more defined in the north american corporate organizational model, as a result the IT profession will be much more rigid, discipline based, and well established instead of being un-managed as it still is today.

by amcol

I really don't want this to sound like a flame, but I get so irritated with people like you I could absolutely scream.

You thought your career was secure? Why? Did you somehow manage to get some kind of lifetime employment contract? You joined the workforce and you thought you'd never have to learn anything new or change anything about yourself ever again?

Most of the high paying jobs are gone? In what alternate universe? Where have you been looking? In the same place all the other voices of doom on these boards are looking? Put some effort into managing your own career instead of just letting it happen to you and you'll find what you want. I've never had any trouble, and I have no franchise on brains or luck. I just kept at it.

It's amazing how many disgruntled IT people there are? As opposed to lawyers, all of whom love their work? Or doctors? Or salespeople? Or accountants? Or any other profession? Negativity and pessimism is confined to technology? Join a support group, you need one. Just don't join another profession, or a trade, because you'll be disappointed all over again.

You have to deal with politics? Jeepers, ain't that a shame. Who doesn't? You put two human beings in a room, you've got politics. You want to avoid politics, go find an uninhabited island somewhere. Or...here's a radical thought...learn how to deal with it effectively.

You don't know what new skills to learn? Why, you don't read the same tech journals I do? You don't have access to the same news reports I do? You can't figure this out? You think you should confine yourself to learning only technical skills? You really think learning ANY new skill is a mistake?

IT people are expected to know everything there is to know about computers? Who came down from what mountain with tablets saying that? Every really good technician I've ever worked with (and I've worked with thousands in a 30 year career, always in IT) had an area of specialty they were really knowledgeable about and also knew something about a few other things, sometimes quite a few other things. You need to be an expert in everything in order to have a career?

And as far as the rest of you doom and gloomers are concerned...some people see the glass as half empty, some see it as half full. If you're going to see the glass lying in shards on the floor in a puddle of water, how do you ever expect to make a success of yourselves and enjoy life?

IT is no different from any other profession. There's a base set of specific technical knowledge you need. You can get that in school, either college or somewhere else, or you can learn it on your own. There's a broader spectrum of "life" skills you need like communication, flexibility, political savvy, work ethic, group and interpersonal dynamics, etc. There's a business cycle...sometimes things are good, and sometimes they're not so good.

All the complaining you and others like you do about IT, it's not about IT. It's about work, and life. Things aren't the same as they used to be...well, boo hoo. Put the same kind of energy into evolving that you do into complaining, you'll get further faster.

I know I'm going to get taken to task by someone who's going to say they've tried and tried and tried but the economy is bad, there are no jobs, everything's being outsourced, managers and business owners are all a lot of crooks, my boss/co-workers/customers/colleagues don't understand me, yada yada yada. Puh-lease. I've been fired and laid off of jobs also. I've worked for companies whose financials fell off a cliff also. I've had bosses from hell also. Each time I spent about 2 1/2 seconds feeling sorry for myself and then I DID SOMETHING ABOUT IT...instead of carping and waiting for the lottery numbers to be announced.

Stop complaining about what you can't control, and start doing something about what you can. Which is a lot more than you think.

Slap yourself in the face, give yourself a good shake, kick yourself in the ass. Do what you have to do, but stop just complaining about it!

by dafe2

Very well said...........the only guarantee in life is change.

I've been at this for about 25 years now & I've lost count of how many 'variations' of IT have come down the pipe.

So yeah.....you make your own luck & your own choices. All manner of IT jobs continue to pay well over 80k / year. I'd consider that a reasonable living in our area. But their not going to be found if a person spends all their time bit.ching moaning & complaining about everything IT while watching TV all day or whatever. Careers don't grow on trees & work is privilege not a right.

Unless, of course, you enjoy asking someone if they want their fries super sized

by tony hopkinson

I bet the chaps in your department have got rear view mirrors on their workstations.

LOL

Masterful, vicious but masterful.

by amcol

OK, maybe I was a little harsh...didn't mean to flame all over the place. I just get crazy when people simply REFUSE to take personal responsibility.

Believe it or not I'm known as a better than average manager. I've had a number of folks follow me from one company to another, sometimes two and three times. My management philosophy is simple...find really brilliant people and then get the hell out of their way.

The days when a manager was expected to be the most proficient practitioner of whatever skill was required by his/her group to get the job done are long gone. These days there's too much to know, and no time as a manager to practice your craft. The best managers are tactical leaders, and the best leaders are strategic managers.

Everyone who works for me, employee and consultant alike, knows exactly where they stand. If I have a problem with your performance I'll tell you. I'll help you figure out how to improve it. If that's not possible I'll help you manage your way into another gig as humanely as possible. You join my team, we have a lot of laughs together and we do a lot of great work together.

But the day you come to me and say "I'm not responsible", or "it's not my job", or "this didn't get done because (fill in the blank) and it's not my fault"...stand back, because it's clobberin' time.

Stop complaining, start performing.

by lumbergh77

Let's get something straight, pal. You don't know anything about me. I'm employed, I've paid my dues, and I am a firm believer in personal responsibility.

I was merely stating the truth about the field. You rip my post for jumping to conclusions and you're doing the same thing AND you overexaggerate in the process. Where did I mention that I never thought I'd have to learn ANYTHING again?

Are you saying that everyone who is out of work in this field is lazy and has no work ethic? What about the 40 or 50 somethings that are forced out of the field after busting their asses for years because they don't know the "right stuff"? How many thousands of people are unemployed or underemployed in this field? Those people are all lazy? Maybe they are....but I doubt all of them are.

In regards to learning new skills. Let's say you spend 6 months learning Java (or 5 years working with Java) and get certified. You go look for a job and your skillset isn't compatible with what companies are looking for, or the jobs that are open are .NET. Then what? The point I was trying to make is that the time investment for learning in this field has a lower rate of return than other fields.

That said, I do commend you for your work ethic and I agree with some of your other points. Could've done without the overexaggerations though.

by oz_media

I can say the exact same thing as a sales manager, everyone goes home or goes to parties I and I'm left rewriting proposals or working overtime (even if at home) to ensure an RFP is properly addresses.

Or as a warehouse manager who has to spend three days reorganizing and preparing custom shipments at odd hours or on weekends.

Or the HR members that spend weekends getting financials finished on their own time etc.

We all go that extra mile to do what we can if we take pride in our work.

To be dead honset, I have worked less overtime and 'off-hours' work since entering IT than in ANY position I've held before. When at the office, 4:30 meant walking out my door , saying goodbye to sales reps and hitting the bar. I refused to work overtime, for specific political reasons, and never did any OT work, unless for nmy own benefit, staying late to work on a personal project.

As for cabling, I've worked in Telecom for years now, cabling pulls are just a matter of a work order, it is then done early morning of in th eday, bet never after hours.

I'd fire the boss if I was you, who the hell does he think he is? Don't tell me when to urn up or go home, just be thankful that I offered your company some of my time today. One they get the idea, they leave you alone.

by av .

You're right on target with that. I guess if you are a person that takes pride in their work you will be taken advantage of. There aren't too many people today that take pride in their work anymore.

I think it depends on what type of IT setup you have. If you have an IT department there are people to cover the work. I have a one person environment. I have consultants I can call in to do the major work, but day to day stuff is mine. I make sure to get comp time for extra time worked though. I've learned my lesson over the years. Any IT job I have ever had was always demanding, but now I make sure to be compensated in time or money.

I'm not sure if you're an employee or consultant. I think if you are a consultant, they are less likely to ask you to work overtime because they have to pay you. If you are a salaried employee, your job duties are less defined and you're not being paid by the hour so you're more likely to get dumped on.

I have a good situation basically if I keep it under control. And I'm happy to be working. I will do what I have to, but I'll make sure to get something for it.

by oz_media

As am employee, a sole net admin, I worked when I wanted to work and left when I was ready to go home, often hours before the office closed.

They then hired me to work from here when I moved out of Vancouver and I did a bit of both consulting, sales for the last employer, and support for the new contracts.

I will work OT when I WANT to get a job done, that's about it. Again living in BC, even on fixed salary, you are still entitled to O/T. Companies know this and as soon as their employees know it, they start shutting down at closing time sharp.

It's nice because if you WANT to work you can do so for your own benefit, but you sure as hell don't have to unless being paid a good wage for it.

Canada's Employment laws are mainly built to support Employees, as you may have noticed when I posted about showing a US company the door a wekk or so ago. They were trying to branch out up here and wanted me to hire a team by paying commission and no minimum wage to build contacts from home. I explained how much it would cost them in hourly wages if the people didn't actually work each day, especially with them working from home, and that they needed to open a physical location JUST to get started. They were completely unaware of employment laws here yet had the idiocy to try and open up branches here?

We get it pretty easy here, that's for sure!

by phil perry

Ok, here are two anecdotes for you to consider, since I spent a summer and some other months working as an apprentice at an HVAC company before getting tired of it and going back to college.

Anecdote number one:

One guy didn't like me much (in fact, he hated my guts), because in the past I'd told the boss about a friend of his doing something rotten which doesn't relate to this anecdote. So he and I were up on a roof, 26 stories up. He gives me a three foot wrench and tells me to grab onto a collar with it and pull in one direction while he grabs the pipe and pulls in the other. I get in position, and then I think for a minute; right behind me is a two foot wall (or so) with a 23 story drop onto another roof. The pipe collar is rusted out and could give way at any minute. All he would have to do is let go of his wrench and I'd sail right over the edge of the roof. He hated my guts, and was looking at me with a weird, half-excited expectant look. You think office politics is rough in IT??? Phew. I got out of it by pretending to pull and strain, until he got pissed off, screamed about what a pussy I was, and took a welding torch to the thing.

Ok, anecdote number two:

I was new to the job and my union/apprentice papers had just gone in. We were approaching a hospital to work on a job which was just big enough to interest the steamfitters union but which was just small enough to interest ours. We were challenged by two steamfitters who demanded our union cards. I talked to one of them, gave him my boss's business card and said my papers were in, all he had to do was check. So we chatted amiably while the other union guy challenged my partner who called him every name in the book and almost fell to blows with the guy. MY steamfitter and I kind of hung back, hoping they wouldn't kill each other.

I'll take the office politics in IT over having someone try to throw me off a roof or getting into a fight with a 300 pound steamfitter ANY day.

by tony hopkinson

working in places where they solve personality clashes with fists in the basement, soon teaches you some respect for other professions.
I weigh about 140 wet through, so when they told me I was doing my job wrong, I listened very carefully. A lot of the time they were right.

by lumbergh77

I was thinking more along the lines of the guy who goes to houses and fixes refrigerators. My bad. Thanks for posting though. I will keep your first story in mind whenever I start to get irritated by office politics.

by is girl

It seems to me that there are a lot of people who think the IT market that we saw between '98 and '02 was the "normal" market and this is a down market. The truth is that IT boomed in the late 90's because of Y2k. Programmers were coming out of retirement to take on projects that paid 10 times what they made before retirement during that period. Then, the internet dot.com boom followed. During this time, there was a lot of demand for anyone that knew anything about IT and salaries rose to meet the demand.

During that time, there were a lot of IT people who weren't worth a dime doing jobs they were not remotely qualified to do because breathing was the only requirement to fill the job.

The stock market hasn't always yeilded 20% either.....the current market isn't a bust, it's simply getting back to normal.

Computers are here to stay...they are an important part of business today. There will always be jobs for qualified people willing to work for reasonable salaries.

If this a field you enjoy and have an aptitude for, you belong in it and will do well. If not, there are easier career paths to follow.

by oz_media

I remember the time where being able to change screen savers and Windows wallpaper qualified people to run corporate networks.

As for an easier career path, well there are many easier JOBS, not not too many easier careers to take on, I don't know what you had in mind but compared to most I have explored, It is the easiest JOB, called a career path, on Earth.

by dafe2

"During that time, there were a lot of IT people who weren't worth a dime doing jobs they were not remotely qualified to do because breathing was the only requirement to fill the job."

You don't mind if I borrow that lone do you?

I'd increase you time frame from about 1991 --> Today.

I, for one, am glad we're weeding the graden.
(Alltough the lake is frozen out front here) -40c today :-)

by tony hopkinson

Job posting yesterday.
Customer Support Specialist 10 - 40K
Skill range started at seeing lightning and hearing thunder, to a range that any five of us put together might fall short on.

One job !

Wonder if IT weeds spread from HR's garden ?

Makes you think the final choice might be made on how little they can pay doesn't it.

Not suggesting the 10k chap is a weed either, an as yet unidentified seedling would be more like it.

by willg

Of course IT is here to stay. Business can't do without it. Want to get on in IT? Stop thinking IT! If you have the attitude that IT is separate from business you will go nowhere. Think of IT and business alignment, a very profitable industry for those with an IT background and some common business knowledge....Try it.

by tony hopkinson

then, you'd be a dream compared to the some of the a*ses, I've had to put up with it.
Had one guy who did nowt for six months, then came round with a clipboard with all your 'deficiencies' on it. Half of them you didn't remember, half of what you did, you didn't agree and the rest you paid no attention to because he was a complete twonk anyway.

For some reason, he kept putting attitude problem in my file. Fortunately he got found out and last time I saw him he was stacking shelves in a budget supermarket.

You're not one of those types who HAS to go around patting people on the head for a job well done are you, I'd have a change of heart if you were.

by amcol

Good, consistent management is about balance.

I like to surround myself with solid, mature, adult professionals. They perform, and I trust them. Therefore I spend a great deal of time just letting them do their jobs without any interference from me.

The touchpoints are coaching, advising, disciplining, and rewarding.

Coaching is just straightforward technical and project management. Examples: making sure technical and architectural approaches are sound; ensuring consistency between business goals and technical work by staying in close contact with business leaders then imparting that information to staffers; providing overall direction on projects, typically at the strategic level and only when necessary at the task level.

Advising involves help with issues of career, professional, or personal development. This is mostly giving people the benefit of greater experience or broader insight so they can improve and grow. Sometimes it's done at the request of the employee, sometimes it's a management initiative.

Disciplining should only be required in extreme circumstances. I've long maintained that people who are good parents make good managers, and vice versa. That's not to say managers should be parental toward staff, nor should parents manage their children. It just means that positive motivation works a whole lot better than negative motivation, and discipline (a tough review, a demotion, a termination, sending little Johnny to his room without his supper) is typically the end result of poor management and not poor performance.

Rewarding works when it's sincere. I find nothing wrong with thanking people for doing their jobs well, but that's a technique that should be used sparingly. If someone's performed particularly brilliantly, they deserve some hopefully public kudos. If you're going to thank everyone for arriving to work on time everyday, then when something REALLY great happens your expression of gratitude will be meaningless.

It's all about balance.

I've been a manager for 25 out of the 30 years I've spent in IT, and I've worked for and with a very large number of managers at all levels of all kinds of organizations. My observation is that the majority of them operate pretty much as I've described. You'll always get the Chainsaw Al's and the Casper Milquetoast's, but fortunately those types are mostly outlyers.

by tony hopkinson

apart from the praise bit. Can't deal with that at all, makes me blush, respect/trust will do me just fine.
Still a good manager will pick up on that anyway and pack it in.

My example was from my days in Shift Data Entry, never met anyone managing an IT department who was that incompetent.

Dealing with the people who work for you.

If you want respect, you've got to give it.

Never promise them something, you can't deliver.

Treat somebody like a spoon, and they'll be a spoon.

If you show contempt for someone, they'll show it for you.

Not rocket science is it. Strange how many people think they have the right to drop the basics of interpersonal relationships as soon as they put their manager's head on.

by salamander

Just remember that you have two options in life: You can choose to be a victim at the mercy of your circumstances, the market, your industry, etc... The alternative is that you can choose to be in control of your destiny, including the speed bumps along the way. Personally, I find the latter to be more exciting and interesting. Once I made that realization for myself, it was pretty exhilarating, actually.

Be flexible and curious, and you'll be amazed at what your career and your life will reveal to you. Good luck to you!

by dafe2

10K -----> 40K

Sounds like the 'requirements' were as...uhh spread out like a well seasoned striper too. LOL

by oz_media

Just to turn up and play the game.

Ask how often you wouldhave to show up in the morning for 20K, if every day, ask if you can be a slackass for 10K.

"I could put in 40K worth of work but I have a feeling I will be quite a bum this summer, may spend long days at the beach, how does 25K sound?"

If they say you are unqualified: "Well I was only applying for a 10K position, I didn't realize you were actually seeking talent for the cost of per food."

Or as I did a few months ago, I fell out of my chair (literally) after he had beat around about salary for an hour. I laughed and told him I wouldn't even set my alarm for that yet alone do any work. He had completely overlooked my contract expectations.

Because he had called me in from the island and knew my quotation costs and expectations, he blamed his assistant manager for the oversight and let me bill him for my time and ferry fares each way (Well over $250.00 for a day out that cost me $120 and I went ot the track that night anyway).

I suggested he actually read contracts instead of just getting excited and wasting people's time for a few buzz words he liked.

So there's money to be made form idiot, time wasting employers too!

Start charging for interviews where they haven't meet YOUR expectations. :)

I charge for offering a quotation, why not a visit that is wasted?

by redragtoabull

"Information Technology" is a _very_ broad term. The industry as a whole is thriving, and unless information somehow becomes irrelevant, my guess is it always will.

Master Bricklayers are not known for the type of trowel they use, except maybe among bricklayers.

Master Carpenters are not known for the hammers they use except among carpenters.

Master Financiers are not known for the accounting systems they use, except among accountants.

It's not the tools they use that create the value their clients perceive. It's their unique perspective, experience, and track record.

Hiring managers today are looking for ways to distinguish among millions of candidates who all have great resumes. They are looking for "value" way beyond a list of tools that the consultants have in their box.

I know a PERL programmer - nothing special there - who uses REGEX,etc. to extract information from multiple, disparate, really obtuse data sources. He writes scripts to parse the information (a lot of grunt work from a coding standpoint) and presents it in a way that is meaningful to his Client's clients, making them money (value) in the process.

He is a coder/programmer/geek (and I love him!) but more importantly, he is a Data Mining Expert. His unique perspective, experience, and track record create a demand for his services.

Call it spin or marketing, but in the end its about presenting a value proposition in a language the Clients understand.

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