IT Career... an oxymoron???

nepotism has been around for ever abd will always be around. that will never change.

by bpeters713 Oct 30, 2004

Rising Elephant, just released by Common Courage Press - see my post - has this to say:

There thus remains a strong risk of false consolation, should there be on-off hiring blips in the months and years ahead, even if this does not serve to make up for a good part of the backlog, let alone structurally reverse relocation, especially with respect to high technology jobs. Indeed, as mentioned previously, there are strong signs that American companies are simply moving higher-value jobs offshore, and that this is a long-term structural shift, accompanied domestically by unreported self-employment, and lower-skill, lower-wage and often-temporary?jobs....

To sum up, other than the critical ?missing statistic? referred to previously?in terms of the correspondence between relocated jobs, and those not created at home in the U.S.?it may also be years before the underlying composition of reversals in the previous freefall can be really understood. Indeed, it is likely that a wave of political consolation conjured by new employment in the U.S. will mask the kind of jobs being created. Only out-of-work technology workers would know the real difference.

by smiths007 Dec 6, 2004

A lot of it is done by foreign workers, either on US soil or overseas.

You have to remember that in its infinite wisdom, the federal government set up the H-1B and L-1 visa programs to ease the burden of companies unable to find good IT help. Back in the late 90's (Clinton era) they had opened nearly 500,000 H-1B visas to anyone in the world who wanted to work in the states. (Also, remember that each of these visas is a pipeline into a permanent work visa or "Green Card", so that after 3-4 years of this, many of these 1/2 million workers would no longer need H-1B visas, as they are now legal to work in the US permanently.) Usually they will work for far less than most Americans, because they can afford to live very economically, by leaving their families overseas, splitting a small apartment several ways, etc., and they are glad to have a chance to have the freedoms that we have taken for granted for decades. (Not only that, but anyone who remembers the "multiplier" effect from economics 101 will realize that for every $50k job where a large part of the paycheck is sent overseas, you are creating a huge hole in the economy, by all the goods and services *not* purchased here, further aggravating the US balance of payments, thus weakening the dollar, and worsening the economy here, which continues the spiral . . .)

When you do the math, it is not at all surprising that none of us can find IT jobs anymore, given the bursting of the "internet bubble", the growing recession (escalated by 9/11/01), and the tremendous drain created by the H-1B visa program.

Not only that, but the H-1B program is also at least partly responsible for the sharp decline in wages, when we can actually FIND a job. The reason for this is that a company must demonstrate that there is a shortage of a particular resource (say, Oracle DBA's or java programmers). If they can demonstrate a shortage, they can tap the global resource pool, and find IT talent at third-world rates, rather than someone who must pay regular rent and insurance, and save for retirement here in the states. If the market rate for senior java programmers is $70-80/hour (as it was in 2000 & 2001), but a company only wants to pay $30/hour for the same skills & experience level, they can advertise for a senior java programmer at $25-30/hour. If they get no response, they document this, and are given permission to hire under an H-1B visa, at the $25-30/hour rates, since the governmetn is not in the business of determining fair market value for dynamic technical skillsets. Before long, anyone ho wants to work ill do so at these new, lower rates - or they on't have a job . . .

Note that this is similar to a man who wants a BMW or Porche, but doesn't ant to pay over $1,500. He merely whines to the government about the dreadful Porche shortage, and in this case, it is as if the government will import for him a brand new luxury vehicle of his choice.

Please don't misunderstand me. I have had many many friends who had H-1B visas, and they are wonderful people, with tremendous technical abilities, and frequently a keen sense of humor. The problem I have is twofold - firstly, companies abuse H-1B workers by paying them well-below-market wages, and then denying them even marginal raises (companies have them "over a barrel" so to speak, and hold the keys to their future, if the immigrants want to work in the US). Secondly, while this program might have made minimal sense in the pre-2000 internet boom, it has tragic results for IT workers here since then, as we all can attest.

In the last few years, the feds have cut the number of new H-1B visas back to around 180,000 per year, but in my mind, that's still a LOT of jobs that are not available to those who are still unemployed here in the US.

The scary part of it is that your tax dollars are still going toward incentives to companies that offshore and use H-1B's here. Not only for IT, but there are companies in India that are outsourcing administrative, medical tech, and legal work as well (see recent article in The New Yorker about the Indian company who employs a small army of US-trained and certified Indian lawyers to advise and on legal matters, each specializing in the laws of different states. If this trend continues, we will compete with every third-world country for all jobs (not just IT), food, and lifestyle.

Please urge your congressmen to abolish the H-1B and L-1 visas immediately. Your future and your children's future depends on it.

Thank you smiths007 for writing such a concise explaination to this VERY serious problem. You are absolutely correct!

The call should go out to ALL IT workers ,employed or not, to contact their Senate and Congressional leaders to move toward abolishing the H-1B and L-1 visa programs.

Thanks again.

by richards_unsubcribe Dec 16, 2004

There is an old saying "its not what you know it's who you know" that gets you in the door. In a slow job market that old adage couldn't be truer. Networking (as in networking with people) is everything in job hunting nowadays... schmoosing with IT managers, going to places they hang out, and even drinking in the same pub, making "friends"... the underground job market accounts for 80% of all true "open" positions these days. Getting a job demands an entirely new set of skills, skills that are often more suited to a sales guy than a techy. But remember the critical sales technique of "developing personal relationships" that is so often so necessary in closing a deal...in fact the really big $ deals are sealed with a handshake and a game of golf.... well guys that's the way you get jobs in the underground market.... YOU are the product and YOU gotta sell yourself. Sure you have that 2 page fancy CV on linen paper (the correct off white colour.. And nary a typo or error in grammar) and of course do it up right, but developing a personal relationship with your future employer is what makes the difference. You gotta go after the jobs that are never advertised and these are the so called jobs that are "filled from within". Small business accounts for an ever-increasing share of the business... companies with less than 100 employees...sometimes even mom and pop operations. Sipping latte's in Redmond and getting on with Bill Gates and Company is a thing of the past... anyway with he crap they put out I'd almost be ashamed to say I'd worked for them. Skills die fast.. that CNE in NT I got is and always was useless.. never did use mine. Key skills to have these days?
Microsoft is losing ground fast to Linux and open source ...look at what Firefox is doing in the browser business...no big deal you say? Just a browser you say? Nope but I think t's a trend.. and I see a decided drift toward open source...Apache Server... Wireless networking.... and if your skills keep up with the latest aps and hottest trends you could very much be in demand. Oh and about this outsourcing? I?ve yet to see a guy in India change out a fried hard drive in a Vancouver server farm. Somebody?s gotta be there to do it.

Richard

by raycaldwell73 Dec 16, 2004

I think IT companies are being tight wads and delegating task to existing "older" techies that have been around and trying to possible maintain them, or of course they are outsourcing things like "Help Desk" support (which can be done remotely) (thanks Bush...) to places like India. I keep hearing the poor excuses for IT recuriters and staffing agencies about "opportunites" but they never deleiver what they promise or they call you about a job, but you never hear from them, or they give you this BS excuse and dance around the subject when giving them a follow-up as the what the heck is going on....(sorry if I got off topic) but this pisses me off....6-7 years ago, it's was a good time to be in the IT market, but now....this is not such great field anymore, they now want to pay you 30-50K to do a job that normally was paying 70K back then, and they want you to have all this ridiculous expereince, but how are you going to get it, if you are not give the chance....you know why? Because companies are trying to cut corners by not paying for training and what someone to just know all of things required.....and what ever happend to IT job fairs?!?!?!?!?!??? I have not seen one in over 4 years here in New Jersey....what the hell is going on?!??!?!?!

by technicallyright Dec 16, 2004

The same happened to me, with 12 years of experience I was laid of 2 months ago.

Who is doing all the work now, a secretary (that's right) who was eager to please and didn't mind stepping on people while overstating her abilities. A computer tech who is best buds with the boss, again not qualified, but sure can B.S.

Whatever they are finding they can't actually do is now falling on the other net admin who is just sucking it up for fear of the same happening to him.

by 33prism33 Dec 16, 2004

Our buddies in Bangalore, soon to be in China. Those a-holes work for nothing and John Snow claims it's one of America's best exports. Good luck finding jobs, everyone. I don't mean just IT because I mean anything in manufacturing, too.

by colotech Dec 16, 2004

Right! All of us existing IT workers are ?sucking it up when people get fired.? The IT dept I belong once had 18 people, and now there are 6. Granted, the number of employees we support has decreased, the amount of work has increased; especially since 9/11. smiths007 makes a great point. Tens of thousands of our jobs are going to foreigners holding H-1B & L-1's and I think when their visas expire, they then return to their homelands to perform our work remotely. It sucks sucking it up, especially when you know that your job is always hanging by a thread and that any day the boot will drop in favor of cheap labor thousands of miles away.

by bfilmfan Oct 12, 2004

I've been exactly where you are when I lived in Atlanta and the dot.com boom ended. And frankly, most of the best paying assignments are now contracts and you have to travel to where the work is.

I've been in St. Louis, Bloomington-Normal, Charlotte, Detroit, Atlanta and now Jacksonville just since 2001. If I had stayed in Atlanta, I might well still be seeking work as I have friends that have been forced to leave the IT field.

I don't know your situation, but I can tell you that there is work out there if you are willing to travel to where it is.

by dwiebles Oct 12, 2004

I started w/ my current company in shipping, but when the need for an IT person arose, I had already proven an apptitude for solving general problems around the office, and had covered for the regular IT person while he took holidays. I had had no prior experience, and although had wanted to pursue an IT career, had not yet taken any schooling to that effect. I have now vetoed and overturned that notion, and next fall am starting a 2 yr. Chemical and Biosciences technology course, as the prospect of finding ongoing and entertaining work in IT seems unlikely. I will remove myself from the field to better everyone else's chances, but I would like to thank the user's of Tech Republic for the professional insight, they have helped me both with my current position, and to decide what is best for my future.
-DW

by itgirli Oct 12, 2004

Let us know how you do.

by bfilmfan Oct 12, 2004

Drop these government contractors your resume. I worked with both outfits and they are good companies. They do a ton of work up in your area.

http://www.anteon.com/

http://www.ciber.com

by itgirli Oct 12, 2004

I'll give it a shot.

by faith_michele Oct 22, 2004

I had been looking for the Ciber link for a while. I do live near an Army base.

Faith

by angelgrl Dec 16, 2004

Got the training, experience, and almost 5 years looking for a job in this area. Nothing. It's really frustrating. The company that I worked for sent all bussiness of-shore, Philipines and India. We can't compite with those salaries.
In the meanwhile I went back to school to have a "back-up degree" in the health field.
I am making way more money than I ever imagine, in the health field. There are jobs out there to choose from.
Don't get me wrong, I still do some consulting as a Network admin, but, at least here, nothing has been really worthy.
I don't give up though. We will relocate to Florida and maybe there I will be able to find something.
Don't give up. My advise...have a back up plan. At least this gives you enough to pay the bills until you can hook something else.
angelgrl

by james schroer Oct 12, 2004

I believe that a lot has to do with companies buckeling down and conserve money. They work their employee's longer and harder and buy less, not so new technology. We are just working on our next buget year and YIKEES the cost for software and licences is so crazy!!! So to stay up with the times we just buy software and keep the old hardware. Therefore there is less to do so they cut back on the number of people that do it untill they work 50 hours a week. It's a bad spiro that we can't get out of untill we get away from M$.

by admin Oct 12, 2004

In fact, to some extent they already have. Gone are the days when you have to understand IRQ's for most purposes, and the fine art of subnetting is gone at most small and medium businesses already. I could go on and on, but most of you get the picture. It also annoys me that Radio shack carries almost no electronics stuff you can actually build anything cool with, beyond the kits... electronics as a hobby is dying out generally and right on its heels is computing.

Someday we will be the equivalent of the cable guy if we stay in admin positions. Just run some basic tests and replace the boxes.

Microsoft will transfer what money used to go to the IT staff to themselves in the process, and make it easier with subscription and on demand software.

by hal 9000 Oct 12, 2004

Their current advertising campaign says "DO MORE WITH LESS!"

That about sums up what M$ sees as their future ands to hell with everyone else.

Col

my MS licenses cost a pittance compared to oter vendors licences. they discount & undercut like crazy. and hardware has stayed the same price for years - it's just gotten faster and more stable. what are you talkin about?

by lord deonast Dec 16, 2004

Right now they might discount and undercut, they do that everytime there is competition or a threat of loosing a small percentage of market share. I just hope that vendors like Novell never go under due to the increasing market share of M$. If they go and if Open source doesn't thrive, M$ can charge what ever they like, then it is bye bye discount and undercut.

You can't rely on discounts and undercuts from M$ in your budgeting, or one year your budget will be gone.

> Therefore there is less to do so they
> cut back > on the number of people that
> do it untill they work 50 hours a week.
> It's a bad spiro that we can't get out
> of untill we get away from M$.

That's right...it's all Microsoft's fault.
Blame everything (including people's own incompetencies) on Microsoft, and everything will work out.

Grow up.

by zlitocook Oct 14, 2004

offers in the last month. It has me rethinking my job offer. Some of the jobs look great and the one I was offered seems to be a great job with great benefits. I could send by email the job offers that I get to who ever want's them.

by sandbergns Oct 18, 2004

I used to live in St. Louis, not a bad place to live and work, I would it if you could send me some of the sites/jobs you know of, my email here is sandbergns@corning.com I have a few buddies looking for IT work in the area..

Thanks zlito@aol.com!

as long as microsoft keep producing they "quality" products, there will always be a job for IT guys.

by admin Oct 18, 2004

and their technicians can only keep replacing them, but that doesn't stop everyone from buying them. Same with Dish same with Direct.

Won't be long now...

as long as microsoft keep producing they "quality" products, there will always be a job for IT guys.

by mkishbaugh Oct 18, 2004

I deeply share your frustration.

I've made several "in-your-face" comments to CIOs over the past year regarding the Outsourcing of IT. After a very successful 14 years of Senior Oracle DBA / Architect experience with Peoplesoft and Oracle Financials and a great resume -- I found myself out of work! After looking for work for the better part of 2 years I've learned that the politicians really are wrong! Unemployment rate falls when either A) the worker finds work!! or B) the worker exhausts their unemployment benefits. The actual unemployment rate is usually 2 -3 x the 'reported'. Anyway - I digress.

I found a few solutions:
A) Sarbanes Oxley Act has created a huge unfilled void for people who know how to document business and IT processes and controls. The pay is usually pretty to very good. For me the real perk was being able to go home at night and NOT have a pager. I can really have a life!!!

B) Think of your career as a long string. Technology is on one end - Business operations on the other. The closer you/I/We are to 'technology' -- the more disposable we become. (CIOs are not the sharpest tool in the box). Yes that includes "development". Advice: Move your knowledge and skills closer to center. Business Analysts, Database Analysts are two skills that will be slow to see outsourcing. (they need people who can verbally engage the client)

C) consider taking your existing skills and create a true eCommerce website. A buddy of mine just started his in January. Working smart and hard he's now grossing well over $80K/month (yes it IS verifiable). My wife and I are now in pursuit of similar success. We'll be going live before year end.

Bottom line?
- Education won't fix your woes.
- Better economy-- won't
- Different President -- REALLY won't (pardon my...)
- Inspiration and hard work -- will

You have the 'smarts'. Look at your skills! Personally - I'd opt for option C above.

Just some neighborly thoughts. Let me know if I can be of further help.

Mark Kishbaugh

by pioneering Oct 21, 2004

Thanks for your good advice.
Now, Mark, please name names.
Who is this "verifiable" buddy of yours and what
is the URL of his e-commerce buisiness?

There's nothing more encouraging than a good example.

by garion11 Oct 29, 2004

One of the better posts I have had the pleasure of reading. Thanks again.

by richards_unsubcribe Nov 1, 2004

Around these parts the colleges and universities are still pumping out the so called Microsoft certified network engineers, all the while there are few or no jobs available. These institutions set up with their computer labs, experienced instructors are desparate to fill the seats and qualify for the government grants that go with full classes. They use all kinds of old government statistics and forward looking projections to convince their students that after graduation full time employment in a full time high paying job is "almost" a certanty. It's crap, in fact a number of students here started a class action lawsuit agtainst a prominent university for such misleading advertising... demanding their tuition money back.
I have no crystal ball, but I'd be placing my bets on Linux...all distros, Apache Server... Microsoft products have turned into a security nightmare... and guess what kiddies. I'm using the latest Ubuntu Linux distro (Debian based)... give it a try... and you'll be surprised ast how easy it is to install and configure.... and no viruses, worms, trojans, spyware OR firewall. Bill Gates be afraid...be very afraid.

by t_2socks Dec 16, 2004

I am in the same boat here. I have 7 years experience with an MCSE cert, and there is nothing out there unless I want to take on a 45 - 60 minute commute. I even have broken down to have the employment agencies try and come up with something, and they have nothing, unless it involves a long commute. The problem I see in my area is the Technical schools, or Colleges, that are pumping out people with a certificate that says they have taken a 1 or 2 year course in Information Technology. Seems that this job field is the big seller. Companies are snatching up these people and paying them just enough to get them in the door, but less than it would take to get an experienced person to even look at the job. The idea is to get this new to IT person molded into their network systems their way. They don't want someone with their own way of doing things, they are hiring, basically, a lump of clay that they can mold into whatever they want. As long as the local schools are spitting these lumps of clay into the workforce, and companies only need experienced people to mold them, then those of us that want to make a switch need to figure out how to un-mold ourselves and become a lump.

What should schools do? Your argument isn't valid. The role of education is to provide basic knowledge and fundemental skills not turn out seasoned veterans with years of practical on-the-job experience.

If you were an employer who would you hire, why and for how much? It's always a good idea to hire new graduates and then "mold" them. That is exactly how seasoned veterans get to be seasoned!

New graduates should have basic knowledge and basic knowledge has a price. As you gain experience you learn to apply this basic knowledge and you grow. Hopefully the graduate gets to work in an environment where he/she can be coached and mentored. This process amplifies specific skills and talents that will guide the employee in a desired career path and increased income.

This learning and growth could NEVER be taught in a university or tech school. This is life application experience and good companies are always better for embracing these responsibilities.

by ex-military nut Dec 16, 2004

Business is business; tech schools are a business and their product is the "lump of clay" that needs to be molded into whatever the company (or customer) wants.

It really does not matter what level of education or experience you may possess. All jobs have a learning curve that each and every employee must complete to adequately perform as the company expects. The question is then how much value do you add by completing the curve quicker?

Of all the replies I've read, not one has been really specific about their experience (... 10 yrs here, 3 yrs there,...). It also seems that everyone sympathizing about not having a well paying job needs to review their resumes and perform a skill set analysis to see if they really do measure up to the job's requirements.

OK. What is my background? Military! I spent 23 years turning wrenches. I earned ASE certification because a boss did not think I could do my job without it (still current in 17 areas). As I went up through the ranks, my focus went more to administration and supervision than actual wrench turning. However, I still had to keep current with advancements in the field and improve the current way of doing business (get out of the "that's how we've always do it" syndrome). It wasn't until about 7 years ago that I found myself actually looking at IT as a career change (while still in the Army). Like I said, I've been a mechanic for years and only recently found that I had always been "tracking" maintenance and could improve the way I did business by embracing the IT field. I just put my skill set into play (always been interested in computers) and let it lead into a Logistic Analyst job using proprietary systems (soft and hard). Co-worker kept coming to me to "fix" a problem on their computer because I knew what to do or where to find a specific function. It became a learning event for that person which produced a more productive member for the organization. I also completed a four-year degree in Business Management (took 15 years because of military moves around the globe). I did very well because I pulled from my military experience and was able to apply that knowledge to each course of study.

So, the bottomline (sorry for being longwinded):

Quit taking the "poor me" attitude! You are the only one who can figure out what you are capable of doing! Do your research - learn what a job entails and develop those skills. Pull from what you know and who you know if that's what it takes to land an IT job. You may also just find you're good at something else! And as always, good luck!

by admin17 Dec 16, 2004

People are ignorant sheep. I am in college right now with a pretty good grasp of where I want to go. Even though I am a freshman, I probably have more experience (real-world, not playing in 'kiddie-pool' nets) than someone who graduates with a tech-related degree/certificate and is planning on going into the workforce. I started this semester with MIS being my only major. As time went on, I decided that although I enjoy IS, I needed to diversify into more stable fields.

Now to the point. I don't mean to get off on a rant here, but if today's students are not willing to take responsibility for their own education related decisions, then it is their fault that they end up in a less than desirable career. I have been told time and time again by more people than I care to count that I should know my schedule and degree plan as well or better than my advisor. I have been told that college is not a time where people are here to hold your hand and walk you through; your decisions are your responsibility now. All of this and I attend a regional school that is known for its "high school-like" atmosphere (in terms of student responsibility).

As to the advertising, again: take responsibility. Advertisements are typically filled with all sorts of fallacies; learn to read through them. All that schools can promise is that they will provide an education, not that they will get you a job after you graduate. Granted, it's in their best interest, but still not their responsibility.

As for the crystal ball (or lack thereof, as 'richards@shaw.ca' put it), I can agree to an extent. Each platform has its own strengths and weaknesses, as does any technology. It's up to techies such as ourselves to determine what is the best solution to the problem and advise our clients/bosses/whoever signs the checks what that solution and any alternatives are. Linux (and open source in general), wireless networks, and network security are just a few of the hot up-and-coming fields in IT, but 'hot' tech isn't always good tech.

Those are just my opinions...I could be wrong.

by davesims2 Nov 1, 2004

Hi all,
It is frustrating moving from being a highly demanded professional to this situation in such a short period of time but as many others have said this is reality. Considering how fast IT moves these days it doesn't suprise me.

A couple of ideas for anyone interested, 1 move out of your traditional search paterns. Sure monster and the internet are great places to find work, if it is plentiful. Bolster your job search with visits to local small businesses (MANY of them are IT starved) and visits to chambers of congress, and non-IT related professional meetings. Worst case set yourself up as a private contractor and sell your services to small business.

Next if you call yourself an IT professional and you don't carry any certification shame on you. I don't let non-certified people work on my house, my car, my plumbing, my anything. What makes you think someone is going to look the other way for the person who works on thier million dollar network? Get to a tech school get an MSCE 2003 or other intermediate level certification. I think after that you will find your opportunites for work are increased.

> Next if you call yourself an IT professional
> and you don't carry any certification shame on
> you.

I can tell by that one statement that you're clearly not an IT professional yourself.
No self-respecting 'pro' would try and use some lame certificate as their selling point.

Every single pro that I work with (the real kind, not the paper kind) all get together at least once a week to have a good laugh as we share stories of the latest fiascos brought about courtesy of the MCSE 'experts' that we encounter on a daily basis.

> I don't let non-certified people work on my
> house, my car, my plumbing, my anything.

World of difference there.
The contractor that works on your house can't just go in to a room to write an exam, knowing jack shit, and come out with a certificate two hours later with the title of "Engineer" on it.
Same with a plumber, same with a car mechanic.
All of those fields require actual KNOWLEDGE in order to gain certification.

Getting "certified" in the IT field has become a running joke ever since Microsoft bestowed their "MCSE" garbage on us back in the late 90's.
You can literally get an MCSE certification just by being able to memorize the answers to a few questions. The fact that you have ZERO work experience doesn't matter, because all these I.T. certifications don't care about that.
You can literally go from cleaning toilets one day to becoming a Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer two weeks later. Gee, what prestige.

> What makes you think someone is going to
> look the other way for the person who
> works on thier million dollar network?

If my company were to have a million dollar network, the last person I would allow to work on it would be the guy waving his MCSE status proudly.

You know who gets I.T. certifications?
People who are unsure of their skills/qualifications, and need to find some way to justify to their bosses and/or themselves that they're somehow "experts" in their field.

A true I.T. professions scoffs at these ridiculous come-one-come-all "certification" programs, because a true I.T. pro can see it for what it is -- not worth the paper it's printed on.

Do you know how many MCSE's I've met over the years who had NO IDEA what a SCSI card was? Or what a motherboard looked like...or what a MAC address was...or what a boot sector was...etc etc etc.

If I had a dollar for every "certified" dumbass I've encountered in the last 5 years, I'd have bought myself a Ferrari with money to spare.

I have to defend the certified masses and those who seek to hire them:

There must be some value in certification...they all have really nice shirts!

by don dean Nov 9, 2004

In reply to Benjamin's 10/8/04 post about I.T. drying up... Yes it's true that the "traditional form of I.T." as we knew it during the boom of the late 90's has essentially evaporated into thin air. Want some proof of that pudding? Q: When is the last time that a half-dozen sleazy headhunters bothered you? I.T. does not necessarily mean getting a 9-5 job at a large company or an organization. Plus, large companies' fickle plans and stabilities are unpredictable as tomorrow's weather.

If you are well-rounded enough to solve just about any computer problem, there is great money to be made from even a 2-mile radius of where you are sitting right now. If you aren't looking back in jaded bitterness to the red herring dot-bomb days, really, there is a huge market who needs you right now. Public enemy #1 of PC users is.... SPYWARE and the related junk. You knew that. You combat it every day on your own machines. But you probably take your ability to combat such things for granted. On the other hand, the average home user, home office, (SOHO) & smaller business folks don't have a reliable source to turn to. They desperately want to establish a solid on-going relationship with a trusty nearby geek who can keep them going at reasonable rates ($20-to-$75+
an hour, depending on the nature of the problem)

If you've got the enthusiasm and interest in helping the average joe, and we all know that 99% of regular Joe's like the Schmoes' PCs are bogged down with spyware junk!) Little ol lady in your neighborhood, frustrated families with networked hi-speed computers ..all wondering why nothing works right anymore. They are willing to pay for your services. Throw a dart on the map of any U.S. city.. and all the way out to the sprawling suburbs, it's a guarantee that you will smell the sorely needed help - get an air sample and it reeks of misconfigured wide-open WLANs (or, more like NOT-configured 802.11b and/or G devices)

Breathe in deeply and smell that air. You'll just see it all around you: the spy-infested, trojaned, virused, and utterly 0wn3d folks. It's been my experience that 95% or more regular users need an expert to get un-0wn3d, cleaned up, and tightend down with 5-minute disaster recovery plans (ghosting their C: partition to D: in case they trash it in 2 weeks - which they will)

Try posting a small flyer in a middle to middle-upper class neighborhood... cover about 30 houses per evening, which is a brisk 30 min walk ..and do this for 7 days straight. (210 houses). Then skip a week or two, and repeat it. Within a couple of months you will have more PC's and networks and phone calls, and referals than you ever hoped for. I'm speaking from a personal experience and am not exaggerating a bit.

> Breathe in deeply and smell that air. You'll
> just see it all around you: the spy-infested,
> trojaned, virused, and utterly 0wn3d folks.

ROFL
Oh my god, you have no idea how hard I was laughing when I read that part of your post.
It was by far the best laugh I've had since...well...last night...as I shared stories of the bumbling MCSE 'experts' who themselves are 0wn3d by problems THEY themselves create through their "certified" genious brains.

> It's been my experience that 95% or more
> regular users need an expert to get un-0wn3d,

Oh how right you are..

> cleaned up, and tightend down with 5-minute
> disaster recovery plans (ghosting their C:
> partition to D: in case they trash it in 2
> weeks - which they will)

I'll bet anything that you're a REAL expert based on just what I've read in your single post. It's gotten to the point where I can tell a wannabe from a real I.T. pro within 2 minutes of interacting with them (or in this case, two minutes of reading your words). And I'll further go on to bet that you don't have any "certifications' and that you're proud of that fact. :-)

by s_fawcet Dec 16, 2004

It seems UK is Building call centres for Tech Support in India and other call centres are doing the same.
Labour is cheap for UK work part of the trainig is, Wait for this !Soaps.
I saw a program on this and Blue Peter did a story on this part of the training is elecution, the idea is they lose the accent and have a sort of neautral (oops cant find dictionary) accent.
I live in Lancashire and watched the demise of the Textile industry, most of the looms were shipped to India, Pakistan and Tiawan. these countries were still using child labour at the time.
I many years ago went out in Denim, Jeans made in Thialand, shirt in itreland and the jacket in Malasia, they all ahd the same brand name.
So next time you call a help line and find it is not in the country who sold you the PC or mobile phone in fact any device made in your own country and they answer it, that is a job that has been shipped out.
I know it may sound racist or a not politically correct it is still a fact.
Me I have spent
Two years at college
One year at night school
Hours at the books any techie will know what I mean as well as hands on I am still finding it hard. I have had to change career but thats life, either that or unemployed.

by scotty059 Dec 16, 2004

I have been through what you have been through. To make things easier take a position that has tech involved, that way you always have your hand in the technology so to speak. That will also keep the bills paid. Second, build or buy a power machine to program with, that way your hands are always in it. Third, start your own consulting business, create your own software. Is it a tough ride, yes, but a rewarding one.

by awgpcs Dec 16, 2004

I have over 8 years experience in IT on all fields, the way I decided to go about this was, join a up and coming school as a standard job if no IT required, within 6 months or less they will require IT support as they realise the work load is too much for the assigned IT people. Thats how I started 9 months ago and now I have the job of IT Network Administrator. Once you get in the job just show that you can do IT support or more. (show interest and offer little help).
Hope this helps a bit.

Anthony

by griggs Dec 16, 2004

I'm at the very end of a hiring process for a position that is a DBA and report writer for a small fiscal system (50 users, ~100K general ledger entries, Oracle DBMS) and includes desktop support. But what I've found through wading through lots of applications is that there are huge numbers of people out there who call themselves IT professionals who have only superficial knowledge. They think that Access is functionally equivalent to a large DBMS, that SQL is just SELECT statements, and that "desktop support" is googling an error message. What I've found is that IT professionals with real depth of knowledge are rare and wonderful jewels.

If you can demonstrate to an employer that you have a depth in the area the employer needs, you will stand out from the crowd.

> But what I've found through wading through lots
> of applications is that there are huge numbers
> of people out there who call themselves IT
> professionals who have only superficial
> knowledge. They think that Access is
> functionally equivalent to a large DBMS, that
> SQL is just SELECT statements, and that "desktop
> support" is googling an error message. What I've
> found is that IT professionals with real depth
> of knowledge are rare and wonderful jewels.

Amen.

Today companies are looking for some specialty skill to solve a problem. Give me someone who thinks logically, has solid troubleshooting skills, and a insatiable curiosity to know how everything works and I can teach them whatever technical knowledge needed to perform the required role.

Desire and persistence are usually rewarded in kind.

by joe k Dec 16, 2004

I left tech for a new career as a teacher after 22 years in IT. I now have a job with a defined benefit pension plan and good medical benefits. True, the starting pay is not anywhere near what I used to make as a consultant, but when my Master's degree is finished and I add some more courses I will get to the higher end of the pay scale within a few years. I don't have as many pressures as my old career and I now get home after a 50-minute commute at 4:00. Sure I go to grad school 2 nights a week but that is not really too hard and is mentally stimulating.

My principal even tapped me to be technology coordinator and offered to take me out of the classroom to do this job. So tech is not that far away.

Most of all I'm happy and feeling a bit secure, a feeling I never really had before.

I keep coming back to this realization, both personally and as a witness of many around me.

In the end (or middle) everyone wants to perform meaningful work. If you haven't yet you will someday look at yourself and ask: What's it all about anyway? What have I accomplished?

Formal teaching has it's rewards and we are all teaching either directly (in front of a class) or indirectly (by example) when others observe our efforts.

What are your pupils learning from you?

by fgarvin Dec 16, 2004

When I went to College, 15 yrs ago, Accountants were the carreer that was getting the push. Starting Salaries ran in excess of $30K. So of course, Colleges and Universities were pumping them out as fast as they could. By the time I graduated, the market was saturated, and there were no jobs to be had. Now we are in the same place with IT jobs. IT Jobs were the sexiest, best paying jobs ouyt there, so all the Tech Schools and Colleges and Universities started pumping them out. In addition, the historical career path was an entry level position working on the Help desk, and now those jobs are going overseas. As a result, The IT field has the saturated job market. It will cycle through eventually and jobs will be plentiful again. just may take a few years for that to happen.

by texasjetter Dec 16, 2004

In the 80' my brother got a petroleum engineering degree, by the time he graduated there was a flood of grads. He is now a golf pro at a country club. Talk about wasted education! The only degree that I have see a steady demand for is chemical engineering. It seems to be consistently in top demand.

> In the 80' my brother got a petroleum
> engineering degree, by the time he graduated
> there was a flood of grads. He is now a golf pro
> at a country club. Talk about wasted education!

An education is only wasted if you allow it to be.

Your brother could've done all kinds of things with his degree. Just because he didn't get 50 job offers thrown at him on graduation day doesn't mean he couldn't have found work in his field by actively looking.

by peteze Dec 16, 2004

Yeah tough! Suck it up and apply for a nite position at the local convient store, cause apparently you are not good at making decisions, especially career ones.

by husp1 Dec 16, 2004

seems to me that YOU should take that job in a convience store so you can learn to deal with others around you!!! People like you are the ones that make your company look heartless!! seems as though you should stand up and take the pressure off your brain!!!

> seems to me that YOU should take that job
> in a convience store

I believe he's already there, which is why he's become so jaded and bitter.
He was probably a "Y2K Certified" expert.

by badtoad53 Dec 16, 2004

Would you take advice from someone that can't spell night, convenience, because, and whining? Must be another paper MCSE. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but there is no need to be rude.

by dr.phil Dec 16, 2004

I completely understand and empathize with you Benjamin. 26 years ago I was an autoworker and our great thinking band of management idiots at that time basically threw in the towel and handed pretty much all our automotive (which includes at that time IT was called 'ADP') empire just because they couldn't get their act(s) together and listen to what the customer wanted. What did they want? Smaller more gas efficient transportation. Where did the work go? Japan.

At that point the "ingenious idiots" (aka management) made our economy crumble in the midst of a so called gas shortage. Interest rates were thru the roof and gas prices doubled and more.

That was the time I decided to change careers and become an IT weenie. I worked my way from programmer operator to certified systems engineer in a fairly short time (pc's hadn't bee invented yet so all this was with mainframes) using my tech talents I stole from the Big 3 Auto Mfgrs.

Here we are again at basically the same point as before. Management cannot "get it" that the H-1 programs and off-sourcing will eventually kill the technology empire and probably in the end put them on the street as well. I have coined a saying that "it is not against the law to be stupid" to explain this scene and our situation.

What to do? I plan (and am in the process already) of changing careers again. This time I will be in control as I'm going into business. The business will once again all the 24+ years of IT to power a business that uses technology to make products. How did I make that decision? Well, I looked into consulting and that wasn't going anywhere as the jobs and opportunities are being presented to our off-shore IT empire and I have been looking into a new job in IT for a few years now with nothing worth jumping on being available.

At my point in life I have children ready for college and interestingly enough the kids that are looking into what field to go in are picking anything but IT as they know that is a dead issue and career path. Do you blame them? I don't.

Monster has sites overseas to manage IT'ers to where the jobs are locally. The list is huge in offerings from all different IT specialties and those countries are scrambling to produce techies to fill them. Go check out India's monster site...Sad, real sad for us.

Just the other day I was re-addressing a problem I had with my local Southwestern Bell phone bill. This was my ninth (9) time I have called to have a sub-service removed and everytime I have been diverted by the second transfer to India or somewhere near and each time I was assured by the ex-711 operator now working in IT that the issue has been taken care of.

I'm yanking all the local phone service and going digital IP telephony in addition to my cable entertainment and high speed network service. My cell phone will be my new "landline".

As consumers all of us IT principals should inform the non-IT principals (Joe Sixpack) to dump the service of any company that has off shored their services. That is the only way that the ingenious idiots (you know, management) will get the hint. Those that don't have a clue and don't get the hint simply go the way of the dinosaur and die off. This formula has worked several times in history.

That is my plan. Hit below the belt as they have done to our industry as the general populace has become dependant on technology at work and at home.

-Uncle Philburn, the new CEO/CIO of my small business company.

by cabound Dec 16, 2004

Hi Benjamin,
I had a similar experience a few years ago, the company that I was working for in IT decided to close its doors with no notice. There was absolutely nothing in my part of the world, so it was pick up a factory job or move. That is when I decided, with the help of my wife and in-laws, that I should start my own consulting business. I do everything, pull cable, build servers, clean home computers, sell network devices, and administer to networks. You will find that if you look around, there is a huge market for talent. Most small business cannot afford a full time IT department, most consultants have to charge too much to cover their overhead, so a small free lancer can build a great niche market just by word of mouth. Small city offices and hospitals are diamonds in the rough for folks like us. These places are on a fairly tight budget but need to be as close to bleeding edge as they can even if they have IT staff; they are usually under manned and over whelmed! Give it a shot, I work long hours but the pay is good and the job is always changing! Good Luck!

by rusilton Dec 16, 2004

Like many of you I find myself unemployed/self-employed after separating from my last employer. Over the last six months I've been actively searching for work in my area and it's frustrating to say the least.

Apparently 12 years of proven experience from the lowest level support to nationwide corporate network administration, in addition to a few current certs, counts for very little in today?s marketplace, after being turned down by many companies (in my area) due to not having a B.S. degree.

My previous employer is a good example as they "eliminated" all the positions in the IS department in order to hire new "degreed" individuals. The CFO (yes... accounting was over the IS group) believed that a college degree was mandatory. After all this, subsidiaries of this company would call me as a private consultant to do the work that the new IS team was unable to perform. The CFO even cut this off once he was made aware of it.

Please don't think I hold anything against the IS folks with the degrees; they're just looking for employment like myself. I commend them on their academic accomplishments. It's only that I am dumbfounded as to why experience seems to count for so very little in the "professional" world.

Okay... guess I've vented enough.... thanks for the opportunity

by rfinley Dec 16, 2004

I, like you was 'downsized' for lack of a better term. I have a BS Degree, 15 years experience and have been an independant consultant for 4 years now. It almost pays the bills, and my backers have finally said NO MORE. So for the past 12 months I have been seeking FTE. I have two things against me AGE and EXPERIENCE. I have had many first interviews, some seconds and even some thirds. The people getting hired are fresh out of school with their BS Degree, a certifictation and NO EXPERIENCE. Oh, forgot to mention I have certifications as well MCSE, MCP, CNE, CNA, working on my CISCO now too. I can already do the work but without the those LETTERS they don't tend to believe you ... so that is not the problem either.

I have even 'dumbed' down my resume to make me look less experienced and, therefore, would have a lesser salary requirement. Still no takers. I will continue on my own with the solid base of customers I have. At some point FTE will happen again. I might be a grandfather twice over by then, who knows.

The market in my area is saturated with the unemployed IT workers working as independant consultants so even the market here is hard. I gain two customers a year so in two more years I can be self sustaining, if I had two more years that is. I don't so it it back to the full time job search and do what consulting I can between interviews. I don't need to make what I was when I was a FTE, I would be glad to take a 25% paycut just to get back into a FTE position. But like I stated, I have two things NOT in my FAVOR 15 years of experince, mostly consulting, and my AGE ... so ......

--Almost a Grandpa

by wflatbush Dec 16, 2004

Benjamin, I have been in this "Industry" for over twenty five years and it has always been feast or famine. You need to "take the time to pursue..." or find another career field

Been there, done that.

by tlcompany Dec 16, 2004

I had been working in the IT field in the MIlitary since 1997. I didn't have any certifications though, so I went and got A+ Certified in 2001. After getting certified, I started applying for jobs. Well, to my surprise, there were thousands of people in the unemployment lines with higher certifications than mine.

What I had to do was to open my own company. I started out working from my home going out and doing troubleshooting on call. I then strated building my own line of computers and selling them to my clients when they needed new hardware.

I still work from the home, but now I focus mainly on my computer line which I sell online from my web site. I build my customer base by doing the troubleshooting and repair work, and when they need a new computer, they always buy from me. I get a lot of referrals from my clients as well. TL Company is not in the top ten. Not even on the charts yet. But I do well enough to pay the bills and enjoy some of the left overs. Through referrals, my computer line is selling well and I anticipate being able to compete with some on the "Name Brand" companies within the next few years.

Just keep your head up. Find that open window, climb in like a bandit, and drop your skills on them like a ton of bricks. If you do quality work, you'll make it on your own.

Terry Lewis
Owner
TL Company
Computer Sales, Service & Networking Specialists
www.tlcompany.com