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Linux and the wireless network driver

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by jck

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OK, ladies and gents (and those who don't want to be classified as either):

Over the weekend, I downloaded and did default installs of 6 flavors of Linux onto the new drive I received on Friday. Linspire seems to have been the only Linux that, by default, found and loaded a driver for my Xterasys 802.11b wireless network card.

Being as I haven't messed with Linux in about 6-7 years, I can't remember a lot about the OS. Plus, now it's GUI and all I remember is command-line interfaces.

Do most Linux distros have a tool now to load a driver, or do I need to do this manually still? I know that I saw an interface for loading drivers for a device, but I didn't see the appropriate one for mine in the list and I didn't see an equivalent to the Microsloth "Browse" button.

31 replies

by dingletec

The nice thing about linux is that when things work, they work very well. There is, however, quite a bit of frustration in the area of device drivers. I believe the problem is with hardware manufacturers and vendors not wanting to publish documentation for open source drivers to be written. There are programs you can purchase for linux (linuxant?) that allow you to install the proprietary binary drivers for Windows on linux, but I prefer to research hardware that works on linux already and purchase those.

I don't always get to use the latest and greatest devices (wireless cards, etc) out there, but I do save a ton of money purchasing used computers and hardware. Or I purchase the hardware new when the prices have reached a comfortable range for me. This is not what people who always buy new want to hear when they are trying out Linux for the first time, but in my opinion, the only way to truly benefit from Linux is to take advantage of the second hand market. I always have the latest operating system, which seems to run better on my older hardware with each new release. So I 5 laptops (3 I frequently use), a couple of desktops, and one system I use as a server. My priorities and budget have changed drastically with wife and kids, but somehow I have more toys than I know what to do with. And shelves of parts in the garage. It has required a change in perspective from the Wintel norm, which I have benefitted from.

That's just my daily rant, but if you are truly interested in trying/using Linux, do some research before hand to see if your hardware will work. It's easy to be frustrated with Linux for the situation we are in that open source developers have no control over. MS doesn't write drivers for off the shelf hardware, so there is no reason to expect more out of Linux.

Everything is made for Windows, and sometimes you have to wait for devices to be supported in Linux. That's just the way things are right now. I wouldn't trade it for Windows though, every week or so I upgrade the OS and every program on it for free over the internet. Too many benefits to Linux to even become interested in Windows or OSX, cool as some things are.

by apotheon

Actually, Linuxant is for modems, not wireless network adapters.

Just about any 802.11 adapter that isn't supported by a Linux driver can be used with the Windows driver, by way of a "wrapper" for the driver. The wrappers act as a translator between the Windows driver and the Linux OS.

The two wrappers that exist and cover almost all wireless cards are MADWiFi and NdisWrapper. You need to figure out which one of these supports the chipset in your wireless adapter.

by jck

Yeah...did some reading and apparently NDISWrapper covers mine. Now, I just gotta find the stinkin Windows driver disk...hahaha ;)

I'm also going to work on looking for drivers for my Lexmark printer. Amazingly, I think most of the distros recognized all my USB hardware and installed drivers.

This Linux thing is gonna start taking away from my online gaming and Jerry Springer watching. I'm gonna need rehab...but, what a way to go nuts, eh? :D

by jaqui

the only completely proprietary version of linux.
it used to be known as lindows.

it's the last version most linux users would pick.

wireless device support for most distros is spotty.
mandrake, xandros, fedora, and debian have tools for loading device drivers and editing initscripts automatically.

just have to search for the driver sources and build them to make use, if the distro doesn't have them already.
if it didn't recognise and install during installation then the distro doesn't have drivers for the device. ( or you deselected the packages that would provide the device driver )

by bigb0b

What do you mean by "completely proprietary"? To me, that phrase is reserved for OSes like Windows where you have NO access to change anything. You can obtain the source to Linspire.

Why would you say that its the "last version most linux users would pick"? It doesn't seem to me that it is any less "Linux" than any other distro.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm just curious where your conclusions are coming from.

by David B. Marcinowski

I suspect his reference to most linux users would mean those tech users in an IT related environment and not the home user, which I suppose is probably true enough.

Whether Linspire has the stones to make it in that environment I can't say but for the mainstream non-tech desktop user it's the best choice of any of the available Linux distro's. Linspire makes Linux easy for the non-tech user by hiding everything that would scare them away. Particularly those that seek an alternative to Windows because they have an axe to grind with Microsoft for one reason or another.

by jck

(Pardon me replying at the same level, but I hate that max msg level being reached stuff)

True...research is always good. I am just trying to get what I've got with my wireless card.

I've found the driver on a few sites, so that will get used downloaded and burned to CD tonight.

To be honest, I liked the look and speed of Mandrake as well as Linspire, but I get an odd feeling that I'll lose ability to learn the "guts". Maybe that's just a gun shy attitude precipitated with watching my skills go downhill from starting with MS-DOS3 to now Windows XP where it takes an act of God to find a setting you can change manually. Plus, I have a lot to learn about Linux and its various incarnations that have morphed since 1998-1999.

Tonight's activity is going to be to try and make the driver from the source code, or use a pre-compiled version from a different flavor (I currently have Mandrake 10.1 installed) than what I have, or I will get NDISWrapper and use the Windows/MS-DOS driver to see if I can get it to work.

I did notice in one tech article I found, it says that you have to ifconfig the card with an IP, then iwconfig it somehow, the ifconfig it again to start/open the device (losing my memory...sorry). My Netgear wireless router has DHCP and what not. I was hoping to get it to auto-assign the IP once the driver worked and the encryption passed its test. Anyone have good references for config websites for cheap wireless PCI net cards? ;)

Once I have it up and working, I will try and email myself MS documents saved in various formats to see how open the OpenOffice application is with MS Office apps.

This whole thing has me clicking again. I've been getting bored with MS because the only thing I ever get to do technically is the button that opens and closes the CD drive.

The .NET programmer is being converted...slowly...

by jaqui

go to configure your computer, select boot options, then remove the graphic theme
then go to graphics server ( xorg ) and set to not start at boot ( runlevel 3 )
then you are starting in console, with support for gui if/when desired.
that way you can easily learn the guts, without any problems getting to console, and without all the gui bells 'n whistles.

mandrake's strength for new users is the configuration wizards, makes it simple to have everything running for new users.

by jck

check those out in about 1 hour when I get home from work.

Ya know, I'm having dreams of grandeur...getting good at Linux...converting my programming prowess to Linux...and writing the mods to Linux that make GATES WORTH...1 MILLLLLION DOLLARS! SO HE ONLY LIVES IN A 10,000 SQ FT HOUSE!

AH HA HA HA HA (big evil tone) >:)

(seriously...thanks for the advice. very much appreciated :) )

by jck

OK...I'm hoping by the time morning rolls around, someone will see this and have pity on me...

I was trying to get the files for the drivers for the wireless card to the Linux drive...but when I tried burning an ISO disk for Linux on the Windows XP machine, I can't make one.

Can someone tell me a website with info on how to get the files from Windows to Linux so I can load the driver for the card?

Once I'm on the net from the Linux box, I think it'll be easier from there.

God...the frustration level...knuckles getting white...hanging on...

by dingletec

Maybe I'm confused by what you are saying... An iso image is a cd image you can write to disk. If you are trying to make a cd that is readable by Linux, create one as you normally would. It should be readable by any OS as it is.

I'm sorry you're frustrated... Welcome to Linux! For me, it's a love/hate relationship. Ok, I admit it, I actually do love a challenge, but the frustration occasionally causes me to use the word hate. I'm sure I were happy when everything worked well, I wouldn't have learned a fraction of what I have.

I realize you want to make everything work with the hardware you have, but fyi I use a Cisco 350 and Orinocco Gold cards in my laptops. You would just be able to pop one in, and it would automagically work. For the desktops, I use Dlink dwl-520 cards. I'm sure if the others posted what has worked for them, we could come up with a pretty good list for you.

There are so many more interesting things to learn about Linux, getting Windows drivers to work in Linux just seems an exercise in frustration to me.

For instance, did you realize konqueror in KDE supports browsing tons of protocols? In the address bar, you can type:

pop3://username:password@mail.mydomain.com

And you can browse your email on the server as files.

fish://username@

And you can browse, drag, drop files and folders between systems using ssh/sftp. Incredibly secure filesharing, relatively speaking. I was amazing myself by having different windows open and dragging files between systems I admin in different cities and states. I do all that by the commandline usually, it was just cool to see how far advanced KDE is beyond Windows and OSX in filesharing.

I read you can do that with something like 78 different protocols. I generally only have use for fish(ssh), ftp, smb, etc.

Anyway, hurry up and get beyond this hardware issue. I'm interested to see your reaction when you start discovering some of the much cooler things about linux.

Shell scripts, for example. I think a person can do just about anything with a shell script.

by jck

What I had tried to do was:
1) get the source files for creating the Linux driver on the Linux box - succeeded
2) create a CD, using a Windows XP PC, in ISO 9660 format that a Linux box could read with the source files on it - failed

About the only thing I can think is that after the machine booted, I opened the CD drive and put the CD in and closed it and it didn't auto-mount the CD volume. Not sure if Mandrake does that or not.

Basically, I want to create a CD on a PC (using something like Roxio) with my wireless card Linux driver source files, which is readable by a Linux box.

As for the frustration, I expect it...it was facetious. You think I've worked in programming Windows without grinding some teeth? Why do you think so many IT guys go bald in front first? It's cause they pull out their own hair because of Windows issues...hahahaha.

I'm definitely not wanting to have to buy another wireless card, although the one I have is 802.11b...and...11g would be a nice speed improvement. I looked at the D-Link card as well as a couple others that said they have GPL drivers for Linux. The big question is, does their CD that comes with the wireless card have Linux drivers on it? I think that's what will determine what I buy.

I'll get beyond the hardware issue...it's just a matter of time and effort and help from people who've been where I am now.

Thanks.

by peter.barrett

I have the same card under SuSe 9.2..
That card needs drivers installed by the os before it works.. Suse has a dir /hotplug/firmware
in the readme it said to put the drivers in that dir.. I restarted and checked with modprobe and the card came up first try.. !!

by jck

Well, I have the files onto the Linux box. However under Mandrake, I could not get them to compile because evidently some source files were not where it thinks they should be. When I re-loaded Xandros on the box, it said that the "gcc" compiler could not be found.

I'm trying to use the Makefile included in the .tar file as is, but I think I'll have to edit the path in which it looks for certain packages.

So far, no luck. I'll keep working at it. Xandros is my current guinea pig. If I can't solve it tonight, then I think I'm going to Ubuntu again.

more to come...

by jck

decided on the advice of someone to post a question in Q&A that is version specific to this issue for the Mandrake and Xandros distros and how to resolve the issues I've had with both of them

by David B. Marcinowski

Why did you give up on Linspire? You did say that it was the only one that supported your hardware. What are your plans for Linux that makes Linspire unsuitable?

(I am BTW an entrenched Windows user although I do have Lindows/Linspire which I use infrequently.)

by jck

it was mainly because it was fee-based, and I plan on learning all the stuff about Linux that I can manually.

Don't get me wrong. Linspire looks really nice and, if I install it later (which I will probably buy another drive and tray or two with which I can play with other version of Linux), I will most likely try it and pay for it.

I just wanted a version of Linux that wasn't too hard to deal with, yet wasn't too easy to get through.

Not having dealt with Linux in years, I have to re-learn what I have forgotten, plus learn what's been added and changed. Hence, I went to Mandrake so that I could get into the guts of the system and learn a lot of core parts.

I am currently working with Mandrake 10.1 and learning how to add drivers, use RPMs, etc. I will be loading Cedega soon so that I can test its ability to load and run OpenGL *and* DirectX games from the Windows platform. Mainly because I am interested in how well it can perform vs. running DirectX games under Windows itself.

Later, I will be working with development tools as I am a senior programmer. And, I may well get into writing driver level software for the Linux platform.

It just all depends. I have lots going on personally in the next 5 months, so things may or may not get to do everything I wanted.

Hence since my learning curve had to be high, I wanted to go with a software package I could download, install over and over, toy with, and not have to worry about licensing and what not.

Mandrake, Ubuntu, Slackware and Xandros fit the bill for now. I will toy with each of those until I'm comfortable with my knowledge, then I will work toward using commercialized Linux OSes and applications.

I see a lot of promise in Linux. I see it definitely being more of a "work horse" OS compared to Windows, and definitely more streamlined. Since I am in a position to recommend things to my boss at work, I want to be knowledgable about Linux to some level of expertise. This way if we find too many functional issues with Windows Server systems in relation to storehousing or application databases, Linux could be an option to solve possible future problems.

OK...enough wind expended. back to relaxing :)

hope that answered your question sufficiently.

by apotheon

You might think about taking a whack at OpenBSD, if you want primarily to LEARN. OpenBSD is by no means "easy" in and of itself: it's very hairy unixy goodness, without any of the user-friendly toys common to most Linux distributions, but if you assemble the correct help you will get a step-by-step explanation for how to become a competent OpenBSD user in (relatively) no time at all.

The trick is to know where your references are. OpenBSD has some of the best documentation in existence for an x86-platform OS. It's also widely hailed as the single most secure OS available to the general public. The references you should definitely have on-hand if you want to learn without notable frustration are as follows:

http://tinyurl.com/3we2c [u]Absolute OpenBSD: UNIX for the Practical Paranoid[/u]

http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq4.html OpenBSD installation FAQ

You should probably look up the FreeBSD Handbook, too, while you're at it. It's not specifically for OpenBSD (as the name suggests), but it's a great reference for unices in general and BSDs in particular. It's available online (of course).

I most especially recommend the [u]Absolute OpenBSD[/u] reference. I've had a chance to look through it, and it is truly an extremely high-quality reference.

by jck

I will look up all that stuff.

As I mentioned, I will probably order 2 more hard drives and 2 trays for the swappable rack I put in. I will install FreeBSD on one of them and give it a test.

However, I don't necessarily want the learning experience to be a monster task. I just didn't want to be learning more about the operation of the GUI than the CLI. I've found that in Mandrake, I had to learn what was what amongst the KDE interfaces (since I'd never used any of the more recent Linux GUIs). Luckily, I saw the icon on the bar for the terminal screen and other than it only showing the local directory name, I was happy at that point (I'll change the shell parameter to have it show the entire pwd tree as my prompt so I know where I'm at...).

Thanks again for the info. After yardwork and what not, this weekend will be about messing with Linux :)

by apotheon

Good luck with your Linuxy fun.

By the way, I don't recall whether I've mentioned this elsewhere, but the key to getting good wireless support with a unix is the wireless network adapter's chipset.

For PCMCIA cards, the three chipsets to value about others are Prism, Hermes, and Cisco Aironet. Cards using these chipsets are not exactly commonly available at brick and mortar storefronts, but you might be able to find them for sale online (such as at eBay). Aside from the fact that these chipsets are extremely high-functioning, high-quality wireless network hardware, they are also supported natively by standard modern Linux and *BSD kernels, with drivers for them compiled in by default. They're about as close to "plug and play" as you're going to get for wireless network access on unix. Just plug the thing in, then configure your interface configuration and DHCP client configuration files.

by David B. Marcinowski

In spades even. LOL!

I used to have that kind of ambition once. Good luck with it. Any more I find I just never have the time for everything I want to do.

I like the drive tray idea. Use it myself. That and external hard drive enclosures. In fact they're starting to clutter my desk like floppys and CD's used to. Very handy to be able to have several different OS's on tap for sure.

by jck

with removable drives with different OSes is just knowing that new hardware you put into the box is compatible with all your OSes.

Otherwise, it is really nice. I've got the XP working with my new 54Mb wireless card, so all I have to do now is load up the Linux drive and configure it to use the new card as well and I'm off to the races :)

by jck

Yeah, the ADMTek chipset was a little difficult to deal with getting installed under Mandrake. However, it was nowhere near the nightmare of the Lexmark printer. I never got the "working" driver to talk to the thing, nor could I find the tools to recompile the source (and I didn't know if I should use alternatives), nor did the PPD work under Mandrake 10.1.

I bought 2 more wireless cards. They are Encore 802.11g 54Mb/s PCI cards. They are based on the RaLink RT2500 chipset, which I have read is easier to implement. So, I'm hoping that now I have switched to one under XP, that swapping the drives to Linux only means that it will get detected. I might have to load a driver, but that's not an issue.

BTW, I guess Prism is still Intersil or did it get sold off or spun off? I remember when "Prism" was the name for the chipset developed at Harris Semiconductor on Palm Bay Road in Palm Bay, FL. I worked at GCSD across the road. Later became Intersil after the company sold it off and Lanier off.

by apotheon

I'm really not up to date with who owns what in wireless card technology, right now. I'll just take your post as an indication that, should it become important to know about it, I should definitely not rely on my own out-of-date information.

by jck

by any means. Oz and the other have proved me growing up in rural Oklahoma set me back years.

I just say...Google it.

by jck

Well, I ended up having to use ndiswrapper again with Mandrake. It is frustrating, especially in the case that there were Mandrake and 2.6.8 directories that I used things from (I have Mandrake 10.1 2.6.8.1-12 kernel)...and, it wouldn't compile like the instructions say.

So with that in mind...next paycheck...2 new hard drives (seagate 80GBs each)...2 drive trays...2 more Linux implementations.

time to expand my horizons.

BTW, I also have subscribed to a magazine called "SYS ADMIN" or something similar that is supposed to be for Linux. Does anyone have any feedback about this magazine?

I already paid for it, so if you wanna gloat about how it's gonna suck and I can't make good decisions...now is a good time. :)

by apotheon

My understanding is that SYS ADMIN is actually for administrators of unix systems in general, as opposed to being for Linux administrators in particular. I've been thinking about getting my hands on a couple issues to evaluate it myself, at some point, actually, so I don't really have any room to criticize you on your choice of magazine. I haven't seen it personally, however, so I can't really comment on its quality.

For Linux-specific magazines, the two that really seem to stand out as quality mags out of what I've seen so far are Linux Journal and Linux Magazine. There's also TUX Magazine, a brand new (and FREE) publication "for the new Linux user". I haven't checked it out yet, though I intend to.

I imagine that print issues (if such exist) would cost money, but you can "subscribe" for free at the website and download the entire first issue without being charged, apparently. In fact, I think I'll go do that very shortly. I'd like to see how good the mag is. The webiste for it is, predictably:
http://www.tuxmagazine.com

by jck

Thanks for the info again. I'll download that tonite and check the others out off the newsstand.

by jck

Well after I got the ndiswrapper working with the RT2500 driver, I shut down and re-installed my XP drive and worked with Windows the rest of the evening.

The next day, I put the Mandrake drive back in to start working with getting some of the Windows-handling software involved.

What happens? The machine boots (VERY slowly) and then after I login there's no network. When I do the lsmod, ndiswrapper is loaded. When I do an "ndiswrapper -l", the RT2500 driver is loaded. I try configuring things and reloading everything to no avail.

So...what is my solution going to be?

I'm going to a different OS.

I am thinking about trying Debian. Hoping that it will have all the tools deployed to make the compile and install easier of all this stuff.

So, next weekend: Linux reload. Maybe a bit extreme, but it will let me delve into a different environment and learn a little more.

by apotheon

I'd recommend installing with the wireless card installed and try to use that to establish initial network connectivity while installing Debian. Also, if it's not detecting the wireless card automatically during installation, try using aptitude during the installation process (when it starts asking what kind of software you'll want installed) to find anything related to ndiswrapper. I don't know if it'll be there, but it's worth a try.

I haven't worked with wireless drivers on Linux at all yet. I'll be doing so very soon, I suspect, but in the meantime the above are the recommendations that come immediately to my mind for things to try out during a Debian install to get wireless support working on your machine.

by jck

I'm probably gonna try loading Debian tonite. Just to see if it's a wizard quirk in loading/configuring the card in Mandrake.

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