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Linux in the real world

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Ok everyone. We talk about getting Linux into the mainstream. However,there are so many distributions and so many options the shear weight of all the decisions swamps all but the most dedicated techie. Most of the "average" users want to write a letter, use email, surf the web, do a spreadsheet, or handle their financial management.

Which Linux distributons would be best?
What are the hardware requirements?
What applications are available?
What are the compatabilty issues? (Will those MS doc and files sent from nonenlighted users be readable and usable?)
What are the costs? Initial / Ongoing (No one wants to have to add a tech to their family just to keep the systems working.)

With these questions answered then Linux becomes a solution for the "average" user, and not a techie/geek thing.

We need develop solutions to users needs.

125 replies

by jaqui

has all those criteria included.

Xandros and linspire are the 2 that are tergeted at windows users.
same monkey can do it installation.
( Xandros is better, it can build partitions and set up dual boot, linspire can't, at leats the last version I saw couldn't )

any windows capable pc can run linux.
freshmeat.net, theres way to many apps available to list.

use open office and yes, you can read and write the ms orifice formats.

free, free.
community support is the standard model for linux, and is free.
cost of downloading and burning to cdrom for getting the os.
( unless you want to just install off the internet, then it's the cost of a floppy disk.

by stress junkie

I get a spreadsheet from my stock brocker every week. I have not yet found an open source spreadsheet program that will display the spreadsheet properly. I've tried Kspread, gnumeric, and OOo Calc. They all display the spreadsheets differently and none of them display the spreadsheets correctly. In the cases of Kspread and gnumeric I simply tried to read the Excel file directly off of the disk. In the case of OOo Calc I tried both reading the Excel file off of the disk and I tried converting the Excel file into OOo Calc format. I've tried this as recently as today when I downloaded and installed the latest OOo v1.9.m122.

When I look at the Excel file in a hex editor I find the following string near the bottom of the document.

C:\Program Files\Microsoft Office\Office\MSO97.DLL#Microsoft Office 8.0 Object Library

There are no ASCII strings in the file above this entry that tells me anything about what software created the file. This suggests to me that the Excel file was created using Excel from MS Office '97 or MS Office v8.0. (I don't know if there is a difference.)

This tells me that some spreadsheets created in Microsoft Office cannot be reliably read by FOSS spreadsheet software. Therefore FOSS office suite software may not be appropriate for people who exchange files with others that use MS Office. It also may not be appropriate for people who have already got a lot of MS Office documents.

I've heard that MS Office works under Wine. I haven't tried it. More accurately I haven't gotten it to work yet. I just gave it a quick try one time to see what would happen. When it didn't work right away I decided to put that subject on hold for later research.

So my experience working with genuine MS Excel spreadsheets says that FOSS office software may have compatibility issues with documents created in MS Office.

by jaqui

use the specialised version called crossover office.
it's completely setup for running ms office in linux only.
you can even pick which version of windows to have it tell office it is..95,98,98se,nt,2k,me or xp

by tr0man0

Don't try to sugar coat it, changing from XP to linux is a revolutionary change.

The biggest drawback to changing over linux on the desktop for users is the training issue. Most skilled users are good with MS office, (explorer) file manager, IE, Printer use and settings, CD burning, and so forth. Switching to Linux basicly means that all users are back to 0 on the clue meter. Open office is not the same as office and will confuse people who are used to office. Trainign is required! Furthemore, it is not totally compatible with MS office. For example tabs may be off, bullets shifter etc... These kinds of things make a difference in a buisness environment. People will make a big deal, especially in marketing / slaes. I still cannot get the OO spreadsheet to make a graph. (v1.4) there are issues, nagging issues. And the plethora of options for linux, including 10,000 text editors, dozens of web brosers and so forth creates an avalanch of options which are too confusing to any user who just wants to get soemthing done. It is also wise to consider that the admin assistants and so forth who are advanced users with XP will be the easiet to re-train, and bill at the lowest rate. It is the department heads and senior staff whose bill at the higest rates, and who will be most difficult to retrain. They who have the most clout stand to suffer the most from a software revolution. Think about what will happen to their productivity.

From a tech standpoint as well, the lauded documentation of linux is often poor, incomplete, or inaccurate. On one dristro (knoppix based one) I was trying to install I could not partition manually since the manager in documentation (part) was removed and repalced with a differnt one (qtpart). all documentation refered to part, not QT. I think it goes with out saying that picking the distro is the most important part of this exercise. Only those distros that have proper version control, good documentation, and follow best software authoring practices should be considered.

by steve_mckay

... who use Visio?

I'd love to use my ...[checks over shoulder -- no Desktop SOE Police]... Linux Partition for my daily work. But our security team (who are BSD freaks -- what else!) won't let the MS Exchange admin turn on OWC - so I have to use Outlook for my email. If I could get around that, the only reason I'm shackled to M$ is visio. Anyone know of a good linux app that can read visio diagrams?

by wordworker

I attempted to decipher Jacqui's reply. BTW Jacqui, you sound like a moron using "orifice." Try to communicate above the 15 year old chat level, mmm-kay?

Additional questions:
Will the "monkey can do it" installer be able to recognize my cable modem?
Will it recognize and be able to print to my LaserJet IIIP printer, still cranking out the B&W pages after 10+ years in service?
Will it recognize the USB port so I can use my thumb drives?

Or do I have to go churn the internet in search of drivers for those devices?

by jmgarvin

The "monkey installer" sees your cable modem as an ethernet connection and treats it as such. Linux is quite good at this and I've not seen any problems.

It will recoginize your old LJ IIIP. However, you might actually have to go to HP to get the newer HP printer drivers. My HP CLJ 2550 works just fine in Linux.

Yup. Most thumb driver are automountable. Some aren't, but that is no biggie to overcome as there are plenty of support forums that explain EXACTLY how to mount a usb drive. (sure you MIGHT have to go to the command line and type mount /dev/sda0 /mnt/usbdrive or some such, but the reality is that it is quite easy to mount ANYTHING in Linux via the GUI now)

Most USB devices don't need drivers because you are only mounting the file system and not any special hardware.

by jrod86

I have Fedora Core 4 installed on a separate partition and did successfully setup the PPPoE connection, but how do I get it to launch at startup.

I will admit I haven't looked into it at all, haven't booted into Linux lately, so it's just a minor annoyance.

by crake

You should mind your manners here. This isn't Google Groups or Usenet - trolls aren't allowed and neither is abusive flaming.

I suggest you read the Terms of Service for Tech Republic's Discussions.

by wordworker

I don't think saying "sounds like a moron" constitutes abusive flaming. (Calling him a moron directly would have been abusive, but maybe I'm splitting hairs.) Jacqui is very passionate about open source solutions but he is a poor writer. I believe if he spent less time making abusive / deragotory comments about Microsoft, he would have more credibility in these forums.

by tony hopkinson

At home
Any one of the major distros promoted for desktop use will do the job.
Hardware wise except for waiting for drivers for state of the art new technology linux is far more forgiving than windows. At the very least if the device in question won't work the rest of your OS will.
Open offfice will read all current ms formats.
Games of course needs us to start using linux more so the vendors write for the OS, the other way round is not going to happen.
As for adding a tech, managing a linux system for home use is different to windows but no harder.

Business, whole new ball game.
The first question to be asked is how much would it cost to re-rewrite all your current inhouse software investment to move platform, until you've got the go on that if it's relevant none of the other issues are issues.

by jrod86

I have wondered why we never moved to Linux here at work. We have about 5000 field associates with laptops with win XP (after a recent migration), and that's a LOT of dough to be saved by switching to Linux. But, as you said, it would take a a lot of money initially to rewrite the large amount of proprietary software that we have on the platform. But, once the initial investment is done, let the savings commence!

by wordworker

To what enterprise systems do those laptops connect? The L*x crowd loves to talk about Wintel emulators, but you can't roll out a new laptop or desktop standard without proper testing to be sure your enterprise client apps will run properly and connect to the network properly. You may or may not save a lot of dough - depends on your testing results.

by tony hopkinson

but costing the rewrite is going to be fuzzy. Such things are always fraught with potential potholes. Even if you came up with solid numbers the bean counters aren't going to believe massive IT investment to save money without cutting jobs and where the improvement in service would have to be minimal. Only a half wit would switch platforms and change the functional nature of the software at the same time. You'd need some serious buy in at board level (read linux fanatic) to get it off the ground.
This is the argument against any platform switch unless the one you are on is going to be obsolete.

by jmgarvin

Most software can just be recomplied with a few library changes in Linux (if you aren't using Windows API calls or crazy Windows libs). You can also emulate Windows or if you are using .Net, there is an emulator for that as well.

I'm not saying it will run 100% of home grown stuff, but it does a pretty good job...

by too old for it

"The first question to be asked is how much would it cost to re-rewrite all your current inhouse software investment to move platform ..."

The second question is "What is the ROI on the re-write of all your current in-house software investment?" To translate CFO-speak to something the rest of us can understand: "Is there enough net profit to keep the investors happy, and keep the rest of the executive team in the manner to which they have become accustomed?"

by tony hopkinson

The ROI is all in switching platform, the rewrite is a debit on those benefits.
Given the differing ways and results people can use to prove ROI on either platform, coupled with the enormous risk factor, a job lot switch has very little chance of getting off the ground.
You could argue that it costs less to develop on linux because of the price of the tools, but they are pathetic fraction of the cost of developing software in most business's.
This is not an argument against switch from windows to linux or vice versa, from anything to anything basically.
Last time I did a major platform switch it ran to three man years, the big bonus was switching from 3rd party software and maintenance contract to inhouse, especially when the bulk of it would have to be messed with for Y2K anyway.

You need some really good bottom line reasons on top of the purist techno-nonsense bibble babble that chaps such as ourselves come out with.

by royhayward

I feel like I am saying, "Can't we all just get along?"

For years we have been being encouraged to move all of our applications to web enabled, .NET and the like. We have moved away from the .NET and the stuff that only works with IE. Now we are looking at being able to serve customers and employee workstations running any java enabled web browser.

We get to rap the ROI in with moving to a platform independent format so that what ever the future brings, linux, Windows, Sun workstations, we can serve them.

And for those of you who have vended applications, many of those have or soon will have webclient interfaces as well. MS has been pushing for IE to be the universal front end. This is turning out to be good for both camps.

by jmgarvin

Mono still has problems with some of the stuff in .Net and to be honest, C# needs a little more maturity.

Can you explain:
"MS has been pushing for IE to be the universal front end. This is turning out to be good for both camps."

Why? IE doesn't follow any standards, but MS standards.

by raven2

I am going to build a system based on the suggestions from this thread. As soon as I grab a box to convert I will post the hardware config.

So, at this point I have a couple of distributions to look at.

Open Office will take care of some of the needs.

Mozilla/ Firefox and Thunderbird are likely candidates for the web questions.

The costs question is based on if there is any inhouse / propritary programs that are in the mix.

The Hardware is a question of what is currently supported by which distrubution.

I think cd / dvd -- players / recorders might be an issue here.

To clarify my inital point -- we on the tech side can use another machine to find drivers and software to get a system set up and running. Many users, (this is not to imply they are dumb, ignorant, stupid, or lazy ) do not have the skills, patience, or aptitude to wrestle with setting up a system. How many of you want to deal with being able to put an IV needle into a cancer patient's arm. They want confidence in their computer to be able to use it without fear of "breaking it" or being frustrated.

I am looking to create simplicity in the face of complexity. Linux scares most folks, even many Windows wizards because it has more options.

Thanks for the intial flurry of advice. Let's see where this goes.

by jaqui

players are fully supported with most distros.
Xine, mplayer, totem are just 3 of the players that support playing both cdroms, vcds and dvds

also supported are dvdrw and cdrw.
( k3b being a nice gui system with full support for both )

by stress junkie

The one thing about Novell SuSE Professional that I don't like for home use is that they don't include the libdvdcss library. This means that out of the box it will not play commerical dvds. You can find and add the missing file(s) but home users shouldn't have to do this. I don't want to play dvd movies on my computer anyway so it is a philosophical issue for me, not a practical one.

There are so many good things about Novell SuSE that it is a very good distro for the new home Linux user. The automatic configuration of the iptables filewall is probably the best thing about SuSE. The default is to not allow any unsolicited SYN requests through. The Novell SuSE software patch system is good. Other distros also have good software patch systems as well of course.

I just think that it is important for anyone that is thinking about using Novell SuSE to know that they will not be able to play commerical movies on dvd without doing some monkeying around. This is not typical of Linux distros. It's a hidden irritation that comes with Novell SuSE that might give a new Linux user the wrong impression about Linux capabilities.

===
Edit:

Here is an article describing how to fix the multimedia software for SuSE Linux:

http://madpenguin.org/cms/?m=show&id=3601

by jaqui

since suse' use of the adaptec scsi adapter for loading kernel modules locks the system up, and I can't boot suse at all.
( strike one )

now, they don't include a standard lib for playing dvds?
( strike two )

by threv

SUSE Linux (and NLD) don't reliably automount external USB Drives (thumb or Disk)

by stress junkie

I don't have any trouble with my Seagate USB portable 100 GB drive on SuSE Pro. That's just one drive model though. I hadn't previously heard about SuSE having trouble with USB drives.

???

by raven2

I am seeing the same issues. So, which distro do you like? Problems we have in buckets full, real solutions that have worked are what I am looking for.

Regarding training, I had one upper echelon type who needed "training" almost every week on the same things. And he needed his desktop cleaned up on a regular basis. He thought he was a "power user". ;-)

by jmgarvin

Training: You can mitigate this by using Wine, WineX Cedega (www.transgaming.com) and/or Aclerex (www.aclerex.com) for porting Windows applicaitons to Linux.

All the tools work pretty well and WineX/Cedega/Aclerex all work with the DirectX junk.

Apps: See Training. You can using MS Office and Windows apps in Linux (for the most part) AND you can slowly (if ever) migrate to Linux apps.

Distros: This is a sticky point. It depends on what you are looking for. Gentoo has top notch documentation, but you need to be a little experienced with Linux to install and "use" it. The Red Hatalikes are almost always documented very well and supported. I prefer FC3/FC4 for the desktop, but I know many that would say Ubuntu or Knoppix.

What do you want out of a distro? What do you need? I can probably point you to two or three very well maintained and documented distros for your needs.

As for the "power user" Linux does help mitigate the damage they can do to their computer. The nice thing is that clean up is (usually) a breeze with the "power user." If you really want to get crazy, you can lock his box down so it looks like he has access to everything, but in reality he doesn't! WOOOOO! ;-)

by charliespencer

I've heard of these tools that allow Windows applications to run on a computer with Linux as the operating system. Here's a really stupid question from an obvious newbie. How -exactly- do I install the Windows app? Do I just insert the CD and then start the SETUP.EXE like I would if I were installing on a Windows machine?

by jmgarvin

(I don't know the distro, but you might have to tweek the directories)

Add this to /etc/defaults/rc.conf to make PPPoE run on boot (stolen from Paul Rice)
--------------
pppoed_enable="YES" # Run the PPP over Ethernet daemon.
pppoed_provider="pppoe-in" # Provider and ppp(8) configfileentry.
pppoed_flags="-P /var/run/pppoed.pid" # Flags to pppoed (if enabled).
pppoed_interface="xl0" # The interface that pppoed runs on.
firewall_enable="YES" # Set to YES to enable firewallfunctionality
firewall_script="/etc/rc.firewall" # Which script to run to set up thefirewall
firewall_type="OPEN" # Firewall type (see /etc/rc.firewall)
firewall_quiet="NO" # Set to YES to suppress rule display
natd_program="/sbin/natd" # path to natd, if you want a differentone.
natd_enable="YES" # Enable natd (if firewall_enable ==YES).
natd_interface="xl0" # Public interface or IPaddress to use.
natd_flags="" # Additional flags for natd.
defaultrouter="YES" # Set to default gateway (or NO).
static_routes="" # Set to static route list (or leaveempty).
gateway_enable="YES" # Set to YES if this host will be agateway.
router_enable="YES" # Set to YES to enable a routing daemon.
router="routed" # Name of routing daemon to use ifenabled.
--------------------

by jmgarvin

Most of the time the hooks are created in the emulator software to "grab" that Windows autoplay and run with it.

Sometimes you actually have to go to the CD and double click setup.exe though...

by jmgarvin

Who wouldn't roll out a product with out testing? Why would you assume the *nix crowd wouldn't test and make sure things are running properly?

On that note, it will save a ton of money in the long run, but you will have a tough time showing shortrun results.

by too old for it

Which has been the problem since CFO's got in the way and killed the dot-com bubble.

Granted, there were a lot of "blue sky" projections in the dot-com world. However, this analysis of every decision relative to next Friday's "earnings guidance" is very much like watching a heroin addict overdue for his fix.

by steve_mckay

Most C*O's and "top floor" exec's in this part of the world have contracts around about 2 years. We don't normally expect them to be around much longer than that before they "move on".

I think that has a lot to do with the short-term thinking that plagues business in general today.

Then there's the fast turnover of hardware technology. Due to the marvelous feature of 'built-in obsolesence' (which guarantees a cash flow for the manufacturer) software developers are kept endlessly entertained (not to mention - employed) with keeping pace with the latest advances in hardware.

The bi/tri-enniel migration cycle (which usually triggers a minor to major upsurge in the desktop support job market) is the big opportunity for 'alternate' OSes, but the sheer scale of a major corporate desktop refresh and the potential a serious failure could have to totally sink a management career (which is probably headed for redundancy in the round of cost cutting to pay for the roll-on costs of the refresh, but don't tell him that just yet) are simply to awful to contemplate for your run-of-the mill ITIL certified Service Delivery manager. And since he's the likliest candidate for the title of "Subject Matter Expert" on the refresh project team, it's a pretty safe bet they're going to make a pretty safe bet and do what worked last time.

Hollywod is like that too. When was the last time you saw a movie that DIDN'T have a lame sequel or three?

by lordshipmayhem

There are a number of distros out there that are good for first-timers, but the choice depends largely on your situation. Yes, there are a lot of choices, which can get intimidating, but that means you can opt for one that fits your situation. You can actually tailor it to your available hardware. In this message, I'm going to assume you're talking about home computing or sole proprietorships.

I'm running Mandrake 10.1 on a Pentium III. I've got a friend running the same distro on a Pentium II. In both cases, we're dual-booting between Windows and Linux, although it's been April since I last went into Windows (tax prep software issues, I'm thinking of trying Win4Lin next year if someone doesn't come up with decent Linux tax software). Another friend, we took his PII/64 megs of RAM and got it successfully up and running with a Live CD of OpenMepis.

For your typical Pentium III or IV, you should be able to get and work with most distros. I'd recommend something like Xandros or Mandrake, rather than going for Slackware.

There are tons of applications available, including image manipulation (The GIMP), e-mail clients (Thunderbird, Kontact, Evolution, etc), office productivity (OpenOffice, K-Office, etc), games including clones of classics like Asteroids and Solitaire, file transfer protocol programs including Azureus for Bittorrents, CD-players, disk burners, IM programs that allow you to use ICQ and other networks, and so on.

Compatibility issues: If you're using a WinModem, you might have a problem - most don't like to play with operating systems other than Windows. Because Linux is developed based on a network, it loves ethernet card connections, and will work fairly painlessly in that scenario. While some printers don't like to play nice with Linux, most printers do, so check out yours on linuxprinter.org.

Compatibility with existing files: OpenOffice is registering 99% or higher compatibility with Microsoft Word, Excel and PowerPoint files. As the currently accepted estimate is that 80% of Microsoft Office users only use 20% of the product's features, that should nicely cover most situations for you.

The initial Linux cost: You could go out and buy a book for less than $30 (Linux for Dummies comes to mind). If you're not willing to splurge that much, you can download an .iso of any one of the popular distributions for the cost of the CD's you're going to burn it to - I've yet to hear of one on more than 3, but it's possible. The distro will come with far more than you'll need to get started, as it'll have additional software to turn your box into (for example) a mailserver or whatnot. While you can splurge on buying support if you want to, you'll find that there are plenty of online places to go for help, like Linuxquestions.org.

by raven2

Thanks again for the information. I will look over the Mandrake distro.

I am being slow in evaluating the machines I will have to play with. As soon as I do that I will post and we all will see how it proceeds from there.

I did look at Xandros and they specify 800 Htz or better chips; linspire specs 450 Htz or better. I think the machines I will be trying to use may be in the 300 Htz range. Actually, I am sure one is and I have 4 others that I need to see what is in them and if they are usable.

I have an old version of Red Hat and a downloaded version of Ubuntu 5.04 in my current stable of distros. In addtion, I do have a couple of older books as well as my old Unix manuals.

Are there any issues with graphics cards? I noted somewhere that video cards needed to be "linux friendly". What is that about?

by lastchip

I wouldn't argue with what they specify, but I run Xandros on a 400MHz machine with no problems.

It runs perfectly well in terms of speed, although clearly slower than a more up-to-date machine.

It is a cracking system though! :-)

(see my post further down)

by steve_mckay

Well, a number of things. But RedHat HP are up there on my current "things I am enjoying least right now" list. I suspect other distro's are providing a similar experience to other Systems Engineers.

My "real world" is the high end server world. We have a solution we manage for a particular customer which is mult- tiered. Front end authentication and access to the solution has been built by one vendor who chose to go with Sun hardware, Solaris and Oracle for the database. All wise enough choices. This is the end of the solution that sees very little trouble.

For some odd reason or other (probably political or penny-pinching) one of the backend sections - which sees a heck of a lot of database activity and file storage - was originally installed on a number of RedHat 7.3 servers using recycled Intel hardware from a previous project. Now, suddenly the user base has grown and the backend solution needs to be upgraded. So we moved to bigger hardware. This is where it got - um - interesting.

We installed an 8-way intel server - upgrading from a 4-way box, and the the database got slower. It's PostgreSQL, and the 8 cpu support is somewhat recent. In fact we couldn't find anyone else using POstgreSQL on an 8 way box in a production environment. It seems we are now at the "bleeding edge" -- oops!

So in their infinite wisdom, the project managers (who consult with, but never actually listen to, the techies) decide to purchase a 4-way dual core 64-bit Athlon based machine. Introducing not one, not two but THREE new technologies in one Swell Foop!

Now we can't access one of the RAID arrays, because RedHat don't support that driver on 64-bit kernels, and the manufacturer doesn't either. We can't import the data directlty from the old datbase to the new 64-bit database, so we have to compile a 32-bit version (on a 64-bit kernel) as in intermediate step to migrate it. More storage pleeeeez! And finally -- the database is STILL SLOW anyway, so who cares?

The whole process costs a ridiculous amount of money and time, and the users are ready to crucify the customer.

The experience has told me that you will save money if you do it right the first time. But I knew that already. Also told me you really need to understand the technology when you spec your hardware. But I knew that already, too. On the Linux side, though, the message is a little more frustrating.

Vendor support has been disappointing. When you find a solution crippled because you *have* to move up to new operating system (EL3 or 4) for new server hardware, but some of your peripherals (SAN cards, in particular) and some of the software you've been using won't scale to the new environment you have to start questioning wether open source software was a wise choice.

If it was Oracle rather than PostgreSQL, for instance, we could get vendor support - even to the extent of recoding or patching the database to make it work. I have seen Oracle, as one example, actually do this on previous projects. You can't get that with PostgreSQL. If you haven't got the skills in-house to contribute to coding an opensource project, you have to think very carefully about where you implement it, how you are going to support and maintain it, and what risks you are exposing yourself to where it is installed.

Now, let's be fair. If we had implemented this on Windows... well - you could forget getting past square one. It just would not have flown. The problem of scalability involved hardware, not just software. IO throughout, memory bandwith, FSB speed, and the whole hardware architecture all needed to be considered, but the people spec'ing the project hardware did not understand these concepts let alone how to quantify the needs of the application. We needed SPARC systems when we bought Intel/AMD, and that was and is the heart of the problem.

Linux, right now is positioned very snugly between the midrange Unix market and the Wintel space. It does well there. But at the higher end of the Intel/AMD server market, it has teething issues. It's moving into new territory, and developers haven't caught up with the hardware yet. It's expensive hardware, too, so unless hardware vendor s like HP start getting involved (Hmm. HP-LinX?) chances are open source developers are not going to able to afford to catch up in the short term. It's fine if you are going with a brand new solution, as long as you understand what you are doing and why. But you should think carefully about migrating older solutions. You may not be able to do it as smoothly as you would expect.

by jaqui

since linux is used on high end hardware as the os, such as Cray's x series "super computers"
what hit you isn't really the linux not being able to handle the system, it's the version of linux that isn't up to the task.
( clustering versions of linux are available, but not standard.. rhel is NOT a clustering solution )

as for the postgresql issues, can't argue that at all, postgresql is the closest to an enterprise class database engine in open source, but it's not quite there.

though, aparently there is a flight booking system wotking online ( airline specific, not cheap airfare site ) that is using mysql and database replication that is handling miollions of queries an hour just fine. maybe replicationg and load balancing between hardware instances of posgresql will improve the performance.
( use one of the old copies and update to be a current copy, then load balance giving slower system something like 20% of transactions.)
if this works for mysql is should help with postgresql, as mysql isn't even as close to being enterprise class database engine as postgresql is.

by steve_mckay

You're right about RedHat. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if SuSE performs better - I guess we'll find out.

Postgres could probably perform better but I'm not sure it's suited to the task either. We don't see anything like millions of queries scenario you're talking about - but it still runs like a dog. The complexity of the application is what's killing it, (in combination with the fact the hardware was not spec'd properly to begin with.)

Sure you could use Linux on a Cray, and the problems would (probably) go away. I think you could use Linux on a SPARC machine and it would go away, too. But why struggle with Linux when we could install Solaris? We already have an excellent relationship with Sun, and the support experience doesn't compare with RedHat?

In the end what's going to kill this project is bad management, not Linux. But I can't help thinking a Sun/Solaris solution wouldn't have taken us to this point in the first place.

by stevef199

Hi Steve

Thank you for posting your sysadmin experience.

I sure wish I was in your part of the world,
where I would have access to such expensive toys,
and as interesting jobs! You (and your organization) rock dude.. keep it up!

cheers,
SteveF

by hereinoz

You usually have to run the interface software, such as crossover office, and that give you the facilities to access the CD, and run the installation - even simulates a Windows reboot.

So once you have installed & run Wine or Crossover (my favourite), you then follow the bouncing ball to do the installation.

Alan

by too old for it

... is likely places like where I am now: 20,000 global users, all currently locked down through group policies,and for whom the two big questions are "wuffo do you want to watch DVDs at work?" and "wuffo do you want to attach a USB thumb drive with files of uncertain origin to the PC at work?"

by raven2

It goes well with the other elderly adage:

"Figures lie, and Liars figure."

Remember the only number that is really important is the boss's bonus.

by jaqui

radeon cards can be a problem.
the driver support is a hit or miss with a radeon card.

I've had some that work fine, others where you have to battle to get them to work, others that have no support.

ati cards are less problematical.
built in video is usually safe as well.

by jmgarvin

ATI drivers are wonky to begin with. NVidia is more stable and they seem to be more "Linux friendly."

Also, ATI hardware doesn't always follow convention...but that is a different story.

Oh and PCI Express can have issues, but it depends on the card.

by apotheon

I've had an ATI Radeon 9700 in my primary (Linux) workstation for about three years now, and haven't had a lick of trouble with it.

All that changed this morning. The card died on me, I think. I haven't had a chance to check on whether it was the card that died, but that certainly seems to be the case (I've eliminated the monitor as the point of failure).

Bah, humbug.

by lastchip

Xandros

end of story!

Oh, and if you want a trouble free Internet connection (Win modems are still a nightmare) invest in an Ethernet (RJ45) connected hardware modem and you'll never look back.

by steve_mckay

get wireless "broadband" - a ripwave with an external antenna.

wooo hoooo!!

That Big Flat thingy-on-pole sticking out of the side of your house? -- ULTIMATE geek toy! (this month anyway)

by mark

Thanks for the info -- I had no idea I couldn't play DVDs with SuSE, but then I've never tried. I've got an actual DVD player & TV for that.

Seriously, after a lot of investigation, I plumped for SuSE as the best distro for home use on account of having a "no-brainer" installation (even for a dual-boot with MS 2K pro), choice of KDE or Gnome desktops, true multiuser (not like MS XP), security &c. I left Windows on my machine and told my wife to try and get used to SuSE with a view to dumping Windows, and after two weeks she isn't using windows any more at all; she PREFERS Linux. She is definitely NOT a power user -- limited commercial applications at work at a private hospital, all Windows.

All my peripherals -- printers, external drives, modems, other USB stuff were recognised by SuSE and up and running without a hitch. I highly recommend it for home use.

by stress junkie

I'm very happy to hear that this is working out well for you and your wife.

Just remember to run the online update once a week when you are logged in as root. You will probably only have to reboot when there is a kernel patch which isn't very often.

Welcome aboard the freedom train. :-)

by jmgarvin

There are just problems on top of problems....Like I've said before, rpm.livna.org solves most of this with a simple yum update, but the newer ATI cards are problematic.

While I do like ATI for their bleeding edge hardware, their drivers (Windows or Linux) need some help!

by apotheon

I've got to agree: ATI drivers are pretty hit-and-miss. I was actually using the open source drivers (automatic install with Debian) for my Radeon 9700. It worked fabulously. I won't even try to vouch for the "official" ATI drivers for the same card. I've heard horror stories and, as long as the open source drivers worked, I wasn't inclined to go screwing with it.

by jaqui

like the card I have in my primary workstation.
it identifies itself as a rage 128 ultra xl.
no such card from ati.

yet the open source drivers ( default ) will give me 1280 by 1024 at 24 bit.

if I change driver to be rage 128 xl,
I can get that to 32 bit colour, at 1280 by 1024

never had a problem with the card.

by raven2

Thanks to everyone for the advice so far.

Here is what I have to work with.

Known good machine. 1 Emachine - 333 Htz with a 4 gb hd and CD and floppy.

Parts -- Franken-computer stuff.
1 Good CPU -Intel 300htz Slot 1 with good Abit MB.
1 flakey Pentium II with MB from Compact (sometimes it works ok)
3 486s

I have power supplies for the Compact and the 486s but not one that will fit the Abit.

A varity of hard-drives up to 4 GB and various other, possibly useful, parts: 1 DVD, several CDs, and a couple of floppy drives. Other parts, an ok video card, two sound cards, USB-1 link card, ISA modems. No network cards or SCSI parts. Most of these things came out of incredibly dirty machines. Shesh

On the software side; I looked through the pile and came up with the following 1)RedHat 1 - 2 disk set, 2)Corel Linux disk 3) someone just gave me disk labeled Redhat 4.5 Tool box. And 4) I do have a disk with Ubunto 5.04 downloaded from the net.

I guess the first step is to get a box that will run things. My current plan is to pick up a sub 700 Htz Pentium III and a powersupply that will work with the Abit MB. Select a couple of the hard-drives and put a system together. I need to see if the DVD drive is still good, and which of the CD drives look the best. That will fill my IDE slots. A floppy drive should round out the whole thing.

Now to questions.
Can I set this up from formated hard drives? I know I need to format them with a different kind of partition than MS. Can I set this up so I can try different versions of Linux. Would starting the system from DOS be the place to start?

I was thinking of wandering over to Distrowatch.com and picking up the Zandros version they have.

by raven2

Corporate policy change has dicated that I now will be responding from my non-corporate computer. My email address has changed too.

by jcrobso

No version of Windows will play DVDs out of the Box.
Even with XP MCE 2005 you will have to install OEM DVD player software.

by rahbm

I understand your point, however please take into account that nobody these days can be an expert in everything. I may be a better writer, but Jaqui could wipe the floor with me in terms of software knowledge, My frustrations and grief with MS has lead me to completely agree with all of Jaqui's assessments of MS and I fully agree with her putdowns, even if they are not strictly necessary. Anyone who understands operating systems, or who has had exposure to decent computing environments, is likely to hold MS products in contempt as a result. I think it is telling that Jaqui is always spot-on when criticising MS software. I bow to her (?) vast knowledge of both Linux and Windows (at least compared to me) and believe that the contempt of MS is fully justified and not just a matter of uninformed opinion, as in some cases.

by rahbm

...which does not include the libdvcss2 library, or any other 'closed' software for that matter. I don't have a problem with that, but simply telling me that I need the library, which I already guessed, is not sufficient. Now that I have downloaded it, what on earth am I supposed to do with it to get apps to use it? So far, this has been my only gripe with Ubuntu.

by raven2

From a newbie.

Things you need to know.

1 You need memory 128 min
2 HD 10 to 20 GB
3 Learn how to patition drives - rescue disks are important tools
4 You can run Linux on slow Pentiums - See 1
5 Hardware configuration is more critical than with M$
6 Take time and RTFM

by jaqui

#6.. is just too true.
if you don't read instructions you won't get anywhere.

#4 depending on distribution you can run it on fast 386. not that it would be real usefull but it can be done. :)

#2 ... um, I just finished doing a complete install.. on a 1.9 gig drive.

you only need the 10 to 20 if you are installing a lot of duplicate items, like both gnome and kde.
for newbies, this is a good thing, they can choose which gui they want by installing them all, and using them until they pick one to use all the time.

#1 only if you are going to be running in a gui all the time. 64mb is fine for linux and will even run a gui, just slow in gui mode.

by apotheon

You don't even need that much RAM if you're running GUI all the time. What actually needs that much RAM is the Anaconda installer for Fedora/RHEL. I'm a Debianista at heart, and the debian-installer doesn't need any more than about 32MB of RAM. There are ways to install with less RAM than that, but I wouldn't recommend any installer using less than 32MB of RAM for a complete neophyte.

by tony hopkinson

BIFTL
Bugger In & Find Out Later, learn from your mistakes not your manuals
.
Format C:\
...
Put In CD again ...

Mandrake 9 was a two shot install, I must admit, forgot to read the paragraph headed getting rid of windows (W2k had been installed ny the vendor).

by jaqui

area where this can be a huge problem..
firewalling.
you can really lock your system up good if you setup a firewall and don't rtfm first.

like completely block traffic on the loopback device with a misconfigured firewall.

try it sometime, close every port on 127.0.0.1

complete lockup. :)

by apotheon

Something as simple as disabling remote procedure calls can utterly screw a Windows system.

I love the recoverability of Linux. Truly.

by royhayward

As an old command line hack, I pulled against push that MS was shoving. Namely, "Lose the client server app, and replace the client with a browser."

But now that I have lost that battle and the savings we were supposed to see from not having to develop and maintain clients have just become efforts to develop and maintain web tools. We are in the position to go platform independent.

I expect that we are not alone. Yes, we have a few products left that are on .NET but we are converting them to PHP and Struts.

But, if we had stayed client-server model, we would probably not be developing a client for Linux and one for Windows. Now however we just test our Web enabled Application with Firefox, IE and a few others and we are pretty much off to the races.

I didn't mean to leave the impression that I thought that .NET and DHTML would work with other browsers other than IE, but once you have made the leap away from client software, moving away from .NET and onto PHP is just a hop.

by apotheon

. . . and if you're willing to make that hop in the direction of a less-beaten path, Rails is awesome for exactly that.

by raven2

I just found a 32m stick in the back of a drawer.
so I now have the following setup.

Pentium 188 MMX, 64M of Ram (mixed), Toshiba CD, S3virge video card, a 4G HD and a floppy. This is running Award Bios, 1998 version.

The HD is split into 3 primary partitions
hda1 is 800m bootable as a Linux Native, hda2 is 1,200m Linux swap, and
hda3 is 1,800m Linux Native.

I think I need to reformat the drive and run e2fsck on the Linux native partitions.

Slax Live CD will bring up the background image on the GUI but will not load any icons. The Morphix Live CD says it cannot load a GUI. I have a older RedHat, 4.1 I think, that installs but will not let me install a GUI.

I think I am still having some hardware issues.

This coming week I hope to have a PIII system put together with a bit more horsepower.

by raven2

I am using an old 3Svirge card, I have a "new" one in the mail. We will see if it all works.

by raven2

I have an old S3 card, any suggestions or recommendations. Voodoo, ATI, Nvidia how much video RAM. What chipsets are supported, I guess I can look that up. What has been your experience?

by masinick

Which Linux distributons would be best?

Which is best depends a great deal on what is most important to you, and that is the vey reason why there are so many Linux distributions out there.

The commercial ones tend to be the most completely documented, although there are beginning to be some pretty well documented systems containing documentation that is accessible from the Internet.

Red Hat and SUSE provide some of the most complete combinations of documentation and support, but there are exceptions. Xandros, with its Corel Linux lineage, has surprisingly good documentation. The Gentoo Linux project has really good online documentation.

So it is really difficult to generalize and say "this is best, period."

What are the hardware requirements?

Again, the hardware requirements vary considerably. Years ago, you could run Linux software on a system with 8 MB of RAM and several hundred MB of disk space. These days, there are few distributions (but there are some) that work with less than a GB of disk space and 128 MB of memory. I'd say that if you want to run a full featured system, reserve at least 256 MB of RAM and 4 GB of disk space. I can run many distributions fine in that amount of resources and only a few don't work well with that much available resources.

What applications are available?

You can run Email clients, Web browsers, text editors, and common utilities on almost any distribution, with the exception of special purpose distros, such as firewall distros or multimedia distros, which are intended for specific purposes. Most general purpose distros run general purpose applications that provide equivalent functionality to what you may be used to using on some other system.

What are the compatabilty issues? (Will those MS doc and files sent from nonenlighted users be readable and usable?)

Generally speaking, I am able to access Word documents, which are the most common thing by far that I see, on most any general purpose Linux system, especially if it contains a recent version of Open Office, which gets better and better with each new release.

Anything that is network centric works at least as well, if not better, on Linux desktop software than it does on other systems.

What are the costs? Initial / Ongoing (No one wants to have to add a tech to their family just to keep the systems working.)

There are most certainly geek centric systems that are really intended for geeks, but there are a surprising number of systems that most anyone who has ever installed any software on any system can manage. A great example is Simply MEPIS. The Simply MEPIS software can run by downloading the system as an ISO CD image, burning it to a CD, sticking the CD in a bootable drive, and starting it up. It is capable of running from Live CD with no installation at all! That said, it does run considerably faster by installing it to disk, which is also very easy. The software provides an "Install Me" desktop icon, which you can see from the bootable Live CD. There has never been software that is easier to install. I've seen more flexible software, but never anything easier.

Xandros and Linspire also provide software that is extremely easy to install and use. All three of them provide many software packages that are preconfigured and ready to go. I do think that MEPIS wins this contest, though. Most stuff in MEPIS has really good defaults. I give Warren Woodford really high marks in software usability design, especially if we are talking about the consumer as the target audience.

by apotheon

"The commercial ones tend to be the most completely documented," you said.

Depending on what you mean by "completely documented", there are a couple of notable exceptions.

1. Gentoo has a very good web-based knowledge base for beginners through intermediate users. It may well be the best distro-centric Linux knowledge base on the Web, or at least the easiest to use that is reasonably complete. I don't even like Gentoo, and I'm definitely giving it props for this.

2. Debian is by far the best-documented OS for the intermediate to expert user that I have ever seen. It has manpages for EVERYTHING. Nothing else even comes close.

by jmgarvin

You hate Gentoo? I'd have thought you'd like it.

I must say that the Gentoo FAQs are designed and organized VERY well. Plus Gentoo has a wiki that makes life far easier.

The debian knowledge base is HUGE and you can find an answer to virtually any question. The nicest thing is that there are various forums and websites that organize that debian knowledge pretty well.

by raven2

System 1, Pentium 188 MMX - 256 RAM - 4.3G HD - S3(old) video card.

Positives Live CD Morphix will run with KDE 3.3 The install to HD 2.1G root 1G swap & 1.2G home patition, will not boot from HD - grub booter. Or from a boot disk.

Negatives: Slax Live CD will not bring up GUI, this may be because of video card / monior issue.

Lunar Linux will sometimes get to a GUI with the Live CD but will not install in any configuration. It has a "safe" version which gets past a problem that is something about ibmhotplug version .6 that hangs the install / setup.

Things not tried yet. I have a Ubunto Live CD, Gentoo 2 disk set, Debian 3.1 7 disk set "in the mail", a Xandros (early version) disk, and a new Arch Live CD for i636.

I have a new video card coming (Nvidia ) and the parts for another system. Pentium 3 600htz, 13G HD 256 RAM, and ethernet. I think I will be able to do better with that rig.

I have an old version of Redhat 5.1 that might work with the Pentium.

The hardware issues seem to be a major one with Linux. I was hoping to find some relatively easy to set up versions so old machines could be converted to basic email / browser / word processing machines without the M$ problems.

by apotheon

I wouldn't say that I "hate" Gentoo, but I have better things to do with my weekends than compiling software every time there's a security update.

by jmgarvin

Ya, I can understand that.

I think I've grown to like Gentoo because it is so much like Slack with the 2.6 kernel ;-)

by apotheon

Using Debian, ATI Radeon cards "just work". When it asks what kind of video you have, tell it "ati" and let it go. That's the "generic ATI driver", though: if you want to get fancy, you can install the ATI vendor driver(s). The same should be true with NVIDIA cards: there's an open source NVIDIA driver and vendor driver(s). The former should be pretty much automatically loaded by your distro, and the latter you can install if you feel like learning how proprietary drivers from vendors who aren't really Linux-friendly, but play it well in the trade rags, install.

Generally, the better motherboard chipsets get supported first. There have been known to be some issues from time to time with SiS and S3, and of course the Intel 815 chipset is crap no matter what OS you're using, but aside from that you should be golden with common chipsets from major vendors (Intel, ASUS, et cetera). When a motherboard with a new chipset first hits the market, there may not be perfect support for it under Linux yet, but if it's a motherboard anyone buys and uses for Linux, support will appear by the time the price stabilizes.

In general, when buying midrange and cheap motherboards, onboard stuff has the greatest potential for problems: onboard sound, onboard video, et cetera. Of course, cheap motherboards are a potential problem anyway.

With the exception of dealing with specialized drivers for high-end video cards and the like, it's really the same game with Linux as it is with Windows: native support may or may not exist, and if it doesn't you need drivers. Linux actually tends to have native support more often than Windows, but when you don't have that it's more difficult to get any kind of support for a given piece of hardware because the vendors don't support Linux they way they do Windows.

As you track backward from the present day, Linux support for hardware gets better for a while, then passes a point of diminishing returns, and starts getting worse again. This is because there was a time when Linux wasn't as widely supported as it is now, and nobody's busting their butts to produce drivers for obscure chipsets from 1995. At least, nobody I know is doing so, and you're unlikely to see any such thing showing up in the kernel.

What system specs you need depends, as always, on your operational needs. If you're running Maya, you need top-end video cards with mountains of video RAM, and they need to support OpenGL. If you're not doing anything like that, you should be able to get by with something older and cheaper. Your distribution will also make some difference in what your hardware requirements might be: the new debian-installer requires 32MB of RAM to run at full bore (there's a text-based offshoot that'll install with less), but Anaconda for Fedora Core 3 requires (I kid you not) 128MB of RAM. Even as a stripped-down text-based install, Red Hat indicates a need for 64MB of RAM to install Fedora Core 3, twice as much as the full-featured Debian install. Granted, the Debian install doesn't have pretty icons like the 128-demanding (and 256-recommended) Anaconda installer, but if what you want is a quick and smooth install, icons probably aren't a dire necessity. I hear that the Fedora Core 4 install requires even more RAM, by the way.

What other information do you want?

by rascal1981

Today most, if not all linux distros cover every single item you named for the user requirements. Open office provides, for the most part, a very compatible set of tools to use old office files (xls, doc, ppt, etc...), up2date keeps the system patched and running and the Gnome (or KDE if you prefer) GUI is extremely friendly for the most part to even the most novice user. For the most part I would stick to Fedora or SuSe as they are the most user friendly (in my own opinion) and have the biggest corp. backing out there that I am aware of. I am not sure that its a issue of linux not being a user solution so much as linux has never been introduced as a user solution. Remember before Windows there was Dos and people seemed to get by with that until something easier came along and with the GUI's the way they are today in linux I don't see how it can't be the same way with a windows-->linux transition. Bottom line; the solutions for user needs are there, we as the IT people need to simply introduce them.

by raven2

After a floppy drive shorted out and cooked a system!!! ??? I gave up on old hardware and am going to dual boot my Win XP machine.

I got Live CD Ubunto to come up and work, with the exception of the DSL connection. I need to get that working and I will not look back.

by apotheon

Getting your system to work with DSL should be mostly a plug-and-play operation, unless you're having to use some kind of PPP authentication with your service provider. What kind of network setup do you have? Does your ISP require authentication for DSL connections, or is it an "always-on" connection like most providers these days?

by raven2

Great info, I will print off so I refer to this as I sort out the hardware.

Linux seems to be fairly hardware sensitive.

I have a Geforce MX4000 video card on the way, I am putting that with an ABIT BH6 MB, with P3 600 CPU, a 13G HD, 256 RAM and a generic ethernet card. Linux only box. I have Gentoo 2005.1 and Debian 3.1 to try.

The other system was just not working. P 188, 256M RAM, 4G HD, S3 video card.

I am looking over patitioning schemes and will try something other than what I had.

hda1 2.1G bootable Linux
hda2 1.0G Linux swap
hda3 1.2G Linux

It seems that the different distos have preference as to how they use patitions.

by apotheon

I actually choose one of the default schemes for partitioning in Debian on almost every install, and modify it to suit my needs. You might think about doing the same. Here's what I'd tend to recommend for creating a desktop Debian system:

When you get to partitioning, choose "Desktop machine" rather than "All files in one partition (recommended for new users)". This will create a partition scheme that makes a "best guess" for root, swap, and home partition sizes. I find that for desktop machines this is the "perfect" balance between simple partitioning and covering your arse in case you decide to wipe the OS partition and start over, especially when you're first learning Linux and might want to nuke-and-pave several times.

After doing that, if for some reason you feel the need to alter partition sizes, you can edit/modify from there.

Of course, if you decide that's not how you want to handle it, you can always do things differently.

I'm not entirely sure what you meant to do with your suggested partitioning scheme, but at a guess I'd say you might have been trying to create two separate Linux installation partitions for a dual-boot system. That being the case, I'd say you'd probably want to create at least one more partition than I just described. For that, since I don't know anything about how easy it is to set up a dual-boot system with Gentoo, I'd recommend partitioning first, then installing Gentoo, then installing Debian. You'd probably want a swap partition, two system partitions, and one or two home partitions (depending on whether you want to try using one home partition for both OS installs). Keep in mind that the home partition is the one that will likely hold all your saved data, as well as user interface configuration information, and the system partition is the one that'd hold all the programs, system configuration files, and logs.

One way to do the partitioning for that is to do the partitioning exactly as I described above, but to then edit the three-partition setup by carving a chunk out of the home (listed as "/home") partition of a size equal to what's set up as the system (root, listed as "/") partition so that you'll have two identical system partitions. Let the system reboot and create the partitions during the Debian install process, but then abort the install (by using the Ctrl-Alt-Del "three finger salute"), put your Gentoo installation CD in there instead, and start installing it, using the existing partitions, but leaving one of those "system" partitions out.

Once you get Gentoo installed, you can go back to installing Debian. Stick it in the drive, restart the computer, and when you get to partitioning tell it you want to manually edit the partition table. You'll tell it to mount / at the open partition, and to mount your /home partition at (you guessed it) /home. You can also use the existing swap partition as swap space for Debian.

The reason I recommend installing Debian second is that creating a dual-boot system with Debian as the second OS has always "just worked" for me. It should ask if you want to multi-boot between it and other OSes the installer detects and, of course, you'll tell it you do. Meanwhile, I've run into problems trying to create multi-boot systems with other OSes as the second installed (especially Windows). For instance, not long ago I tried setting up a dual-boot between Mandrake and Debian: I already had Debian on the machine, and used the Mandrake 10.1 installation CD to try to create a dual-boot system. The end result was that Mandrake installed just fine, but the Debian install was hosed. I luckily still had my home directory intact, so I just wiped Mandrake and reinstalled Debian. I decided against screwing with making a dual-boot system with Mandrake at that point, having lost some patience with it, and I'm a much happier man for it.

by raven2

After reading my post here is the short answer: I want a Linux system to try out. I am not attached to any particular disto, I just want to see what I can do with the open source side of things.

My original post with whining and complaining.

What I am trying to do is get a couple of old machines to play nice with Linux. I have the P I with a cd rom 256 Ram and a 4G hd. This works with Live CDs for both Ubunto, and Morphics but I seem to be having a problem getting it installed to the HD. It would seem to be a relatively simple install for Gentoo but it dies at the last step; it sees the S3 card and seems to lose its settings for the framebuffer. Then it goes to the console. I guess I need to read up on the install, generate a check list and follow it. Gentoo seems to have an extensive tutorial / docs file.

I have not tried the Debian 3.1 disk set I just got, would it work on this old a system? I am trying to get another system up and working that is a 300 Htz Celeron.

I may just break down and install a dual boot on my AMD/64 3000 system, I have room.

Oh by the way, I just downloaded Xandros open version. So I seem to have a plethora of distros, just none that seem to want to install on old machines.

by too old for it

... have to do is emulate what IE does, and they work.

I have a theory on browser standards. You get a bunch of Bill Gates haters together in a room. They figure out what IE can't or won't do. They call this a "feature" They declare this "feature" to be a standard.

by apotheon

Actually, the way it has tended to work is this:

A bunch of people that don't work for MS or one of its "business partners" get together and discuss standards. They invite MS to send someone, but MS doesn't bother. They look at what most people are doing and try to come up with something that is compatible with that without being hopelessly broken. One more time, they ask for input from MS. MS suggests they make "use IE" the standard. They tell MS where to stick it, and publish what they've got.

by too old for it

... the point where Apache is supposed to serve the web page, but it doesn't.

Most Apache literature is like trying to read sanskrit, IMHO.

by jaqui

apache is one of the easiest apps for me.

one of the best resources, where I learned a lot about apache, is the mailing list.

thier archives have an incredible number of different explanations for every tast, at least one of them will "click" for someone.

by apotheon

I guess you're right about that. Precious few of them, though: for the most part, MS business partners aren't really relevant to the process. They're mostly looking for browser makers and the like in working on web standards.