Manager Replaced - Suggestions needed
This is page 2 of the discussion. Read the opening post
IT Employment
This is page 2 of the discussion. Read the opening post
by gaijinit
BigAbe,
'You can't fight city hall'. All offices are not entities unto themselves, just groups of people following directives, and as such, they are political. That's just the way it is.
Even if you win, you will be labeled as a 'troublemaker' or 'not a team player', either of which will kill your chances of career advancement faster than a New York minute.
Are you sure you are aware of the whole scenario? What if your new director was appointed to completely overhaul the IT department by higher management and decided to 'clean house'? What if your old job is to be out-sourced and your replacement doesn't need the same skills you had? Somewhere up the ladder, someone decided to put him where he is and the bottom line is he has no obligation to explain his actions to you.
An IT manager directs the people and software needed to maintain the information infrastructure systems; he does not influence company business directives or policies. As such, he is usually regarded by business managers as a tool. As long as the tool is dependable and gets the job done, fine - if not, buy a new one.
Are you prepared to lose your job? If you confront your new director, he will probably arrange that, if for no other reason than because you questioned his authority. He is motivated to prove to the people who appointed him that he is doing his job well, and will not like you putting a different light on that.
Unpalatable as they may be, your choices are basically 1) accepting your new position 2) fighting and eventually losing more than you already have, or 3) moving to a different company.
Whatever you do, weigh ALL the factors and consider the worst consequences before acting. If you're SURE you can deal with that, then go ahead and fight him.
by martid83
by gaijinit
At 53, I am daily saddened to see the sorry state to which communication skills have devolved in the USA. To see people take pride in such ignorance bodes poorly for our nation's future.
I also saw the terrible spelling and grammar in BigAbe's posting, but wasn't sure it this was the proper forum in which to point them out as the guy seemed to have enough problems already.
But I agree that a lot of his problems may come from his own lack of attention to detail as evidenced in his message. Typing errors happen to anyone, but repeatedly spelling 'pursue' as 'persue' is not typing, that is either 1) laziness or 2) not caring enough to proofread.
Like it or not, as IT managers or engineers in any discipline, we must communicate our ideas and recommendations to others, be they managers or customers, and in doing so, are ambassadors or representatives of our companies or departments, and messages like BigAbe's would embarass any business manager.
Street language and grammar belongs where it came from - in the street, not the boardroom or even inter-departmental emails.
If you can't take pride in the work you do, then you shouldn't be doing the work. In this day of virtually limitless free spelling checkers, on-line grammar and writing help sources, there is no excuse for such poor language skills but laziness.
If someone knows they have poor spelling or grammar skills, then they should take the time to proof-read and use some tools to check their work. If they don't want to bother, then that says a lot about their sense of pride in the work they do. If mediocrity in his work is acceptable to him, then he should accept mediocrity in his career aspirations.
Last year I was 'downsized' as a systems integration engineeer from a telecom manufacturing company having business problems, and found another job in only 2 months with another telecom firm. The person who hired me told me he was atracted by my written communcation skills, which were sorely in need of being improved among present engineering staff, and that he expected me to contribute to such improvement by example and active training.
by netfix
Hi,
If your feel you need to know the reason for your displacement, then I would suggest you go for it all the way, even if it meanes having to change jobs.
There is no doubt in my mind when it comes to Self Respect and Honor, and I sense you feel dishonored by this situation.
Regards,
by winston
I strongly agree with the post that was submitted by Cindi, aka "techwannabe". In a situation suchas this one, you really do need to take a self assesment of your marketable skill set. Remember that you are still in control of your career but you only have about six months of sanity to turn things around for yourself. Sugar coating your situation is not what is needed here. Go ahead and polish up your resume and begin a new job search just to be on the safe side. Others have posted here that your company still has regard for you and would like to keep you around. That is definitely subject to interpretation and whether or not you are wearing those new hi-tech Rayban rose colored glasses. Let the truth be known that your days at this place are in fact numbered. The powers that be have given you a definitive sign that they would rather have you continue practicing your chosen craft elsewhere. It's just business, which can be rather harsh sometimes.
Now that you are no longer a virgin, check with your state's Employment Developement Department for information on training assistance to upgrade your skills. These services are of no cost to you and are available to persons regardless of whether they are unemployed, under employed, or have earned a PhD degree. Political fallout suchas this happens all the time and it will continue to happen as long as free trade exist. So roll with this punch and carefully plan out your next move. Afterall, your career and future is your hands and you should not allow for a company to dictate its path. Hold on to this job until you find another; thank them for the experiences you all shared then bid them a fond fairwell.
by donaldcoe
.
I concur with the above message. What a great bit of advice.
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I concur with the above message. What a great bit of advice.
by chris910
Perhaps QA as in need of cleanup and the director deemed that you were the best person to get them cleaned up. I know a couple of individuals who are used by management as "troubleshooters." They go into a problem department and apply their people and organizational skills to mold them into a team that is highly organized and efficient.
Think of this as an opertunity to sharpen your "management" Skills while you take your time and quietly seek new employment. Keep in mind that in some industries QA experience is very valuble.
by kilowatt
by nowikn
You did read the story, right? How do you expect him to "get a positive job reference"?
My advice, for what it's worth, happily work in your new position while diligently looking for another job - stay in your foxhole and don't draw attention to yourself.
by bughuntermi
The ?why? doesn?t really matter at this point but how you deal with this does. Yes, it grinds that no explanation was given and, unless otherwise written, very much within the parameters of ?at-will? employment.
Two schools of thought:
Positive - You have created and/or managed an environment/process(s) that work so well, a novice can step in and learn the ropes with ease while the department carries on and, there is an expectation you?ll do the same for QA.
Negative - The motivation behind the move may be the new director?s own fears of deficiency. He may know a great deal about QA (thus, an ?upper hand?) and little about IT. Who better to reveal his short-comings than one who is exceptional in this realm? It could have been a political move on his part or even further up, with somebody pulling your new director?s strings. Just to name a few.
First, you state, ?I have a spotless record, and received outstanding performance reviews every year.?
In looking towards the positive ? great! Do your best to garner those outstanding performance reviews and maintain that spotless record. Who knows what you can achieve? It may also put you in a position for advancement (his replacement?) because you now possess a greater depth of knowledge ? with a proven track record of success - in the company as a whole.
Second, you state, ?Should I go to the director or HR? ? I am basically concerned, that if I do pursue this issue, I would be black balled and eventually let go for something.?
If you prefer the negative ? caution! In most cases HR will never know the ?real? reason (depends on your particular corporate atmosphere and structure) but will record whatever PC reason is given to them. It will take some time on your part to determine the nature of this transfer. I?m sure you possess the skills it takes to read this other person and find their motivation - it?s a basic, required quality for successful management. Once you determine the key factor it?s up to you to work with it rather than against it. For example, if it is due to the director?s insecurities, you?ll need to come up with ways to allay those fears. It may take a situation where he makes a huge misstatement on all things IT and you keep your mouth shut. Work it out with him in private and offer a solution he can bring forward to correct it and be the hero.
Finally, regardless of the road you choose, it boils down to moving past this and making it work or moving on.
by smkirby
This reply is very realistic. Since it comes from someone who has been in the same situation, it's advice I would recommend. I concur that, in most cases, HR does not know exactly what happened and is told what upper management wants them to hear. The people in HR can be the nicest you would want to meet but in many cases, I've spoken to people who dealt with a situation and later told me that they were under duress to keep the actual facts covered up or THEY would be out of a job. I have never worked for an IT company where the HR folks were able to do a lot for me unless it was a Government facility.
I suggest reading and re-reading this advice and choosing the path you wish to follow. After all,the final decision is up to you. Good luck with whatever direction you wish to move in.
by gario
by vltiii
by cg it
BigAbe what's your initial gut say about it. I'm sure somewhere in the past, people around you and management gave you clues as to what might come down in the future.
80% of the reason people get fired, and 80% of the reason people look for another job is they don't get along with others, not job performance.
If someone doesn't like you or if a majority of peers complain about you for whatever reason, they will try different tactics to get rid of you. Demotion, cutting you out of the loop, isolating you and if you don't get that hint, then they start trying to find other ways.
MHO, take this time to dust off your resume update it, and start an active search for another job. Once you start doing that, if the aloofness, isolation, and being cut out of the loop from peers and management ease off you then you'll know they want you out.
by sleepin'dawg
but I would have appreciated it more if you completed the answer to my first request. You have me mystified since it appears you are addressing spell check from within the forum. I know how to do it outside the forum and bring it in but not how to do it from within. Please advise
as I really would like to know. I hope the weather
was nice and you had a HAPPY CANADA DAY.
by richard h
by shifterdog
by jackoj
Your present employer has shown how much they can be trusted, if you feel you want to stay with them so be it, while you are looking for a better company/position use this side shift to improve your skills. Protect all your information you have regarding the previous position as you do not know what they are up to.
Good Luck.
by yardost
by yardost
by mandrake64
I agree. You have the right idea. Best to leave a ship while it is still afloat and not on the way down. If your current company is in good condition, chances are so are the competitors and this will increase your opportunities.
There is also some value in going it alone if you have the skills necessary. As a friend told me once, as long as you overcome waking up at 3am wondering where your next dollar will come from then you can have peace of mind. Just have confidence in your own abilities.
by gschoenf
by jimmy.fitch
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Compared to many messages that appear in these threads, his was outstanding. It's quite easy to miss a letter in a word, or have a missing or misplaced comma here or there. And not taking the time or effort for proof reading and spell checking in a situation such as this is certainly understandable.
Besides, how would you like it if someone pointed out your grammatical errors in these threads?
You have misspelled words (concise and boardroom), you have missing commas and sentence fragments, and you didn't capitalize everywhere it's required, and so on.
The thing about correcting someone's grammar and spelling is that it may have a tendency to come back and bite you in the you-know-what.
(No, I didn't proof read this or send it through a spell-checker. Gee, I hope I got it all right.)
Take it for what it's worth, but my intention is only to offer a bit of "food for thought".
by mrsyence
by adiwoc
I was in a similar situation couple of years ago,
After 6 years as a Sr.Developer/Consultant was reassigned to QA/BuildManagement/Version control. Salaray did not change, but I had no prior exp. with the kind of work that had to be done. I kept communication channels open with the new director, and other mangers in the organization, 3 months into my new position I found out, that the Director for the Qa/BM/VC was thinking of leaving the firm in 6 months and they wanted me to be 'groomed' before he left to take charge of the entire division. They did not want to inform any one about the departure, too much in advance. I now head the Change Management division.
My guess is that, you are good at what you do and know the current organization procedures and the management thinks you are the right person for the job.
Try to join the ASQ user group in your area and get seriously interested in change management/QA.If you have the budget get yourself an outside consultant to train you in QA procedures and get a crash course in it.
Good luck, I hope things work out well for you.
by mandrake64
Some forced moves or even demotions are a result of managers fearing that: a) they know that you know more than them, b) they realise that you could do their job better, c) you could do more in the organisation once freed of the restrictions of your old position.
Some new managers believe that they must make organisational changes just to be seen to be doing something or justifying their importance to the organisation. Others are tasked with making the organisational changes that their own managers are mandating.
Don't be too disheartened by the move. If you have a good work performance and your annual reviews illustrate this, then finding a better position should present no big issues.
But make sure your references are always current. If necessary, chase down your old director if he/she would be willing to write you a reference.
Don't try chasing up the reasons for the change of position if you know for a fact that it was not related to poor performance. It can label you within the organisation as a problem.
by heml0ck
What has happened to you is known as a constructive dismissal. I'm not sure about the US, but in Canada this is grounds for taking job action with the labour board to get your job back.
In reply to DC_GUY... Are you serious? Do you want to work for a company that has NO regard for your rights as an employee? That is a frightening position, and is a good example of why unions have become necessary in our world.
After what this director did, would you even want to work for him/her? Not worth the effort. You may get your way and end up under him/her and that would probably be a nightmare.
My two cents...
by sleepin'dawg
Duh? Guess I was speaking too technically for you but I'll take another shot at it.
I'll match my technical skills aginst anyone and for that matter my management skills as well.
How many people do you know who can code Assembler
never mind COBOL, FORTRAN, BASIC,VB, C and C++, ADA, LISP and a few others which are best forgotten. How many systems have you designed, set up, and brought on line as well as integrated for Fortune 500 companies including NASA. In the past five years have you started a company in your garage with 3 of your buddies, mind you with yourself as controlling shareholder, and grown it so that it now has 9 partners and 187 employees spread across 7 offices in the US and Canada. In that time we've lost 2 employees one by accident and one fired. If by any chance you've achieved something similar how many offices are you hoping to open in Asia, Britain and perhaps Europe within the next two years????
Still reading?????? Hmmmmmm???? If you noted anything I was trying to point out to BigAbe it often isn't enough to be a good technician or a good manager. At a certain point, like it or not, some social skills become necessary. One of these is communications and nothing will label you as quickly as poor linguistics in communications. I know you will say things like that shouldn't matter but for some people, unfortuneately, they do. However, that's not an incurable condition. Courses are available to rectify the matter and shouldn't take much more than a semester or two at a community college. Sometimes its a matter of manners or personal hygene. That means no farting at the dinner table or in church and for God's sake brush your teeth and take a shower. One of my
own personal faux pas is in the matter of dress. I
positively hate dressing in shirts and ties my tastes running more to Levi and/or denim shirts and pants and my assistant is always on my back to
wear something more appropriate for meetings with
outsiders. My response is usually that I'm the boss and majority shareholder and I'm the only one I have to impress. Sometimes I admit she's right as last week I was in a meeting being totally ignored. I think they thought I was the janitor and it wasn't until several of my cohorts
kept asking for my opinion that it finally dawned on them that I was the guy with the veto and they better be nice to me. All very amusing. What I'm talking about is "Mahogany Row" level of management and if it hasn't been acquired at lower management levels you'll never get past middle management. Whatever it is they are all skills that can be learned and are taught somewhere. In my company we even pay for the courses. Mind you now; no slurping your tea from the saucer and point the little finger when drinking from your cup unless you are dining with a Philistine like me where it's coffee in a mug and don't spill any on me or my desk. You'll note
while I don't follow the procedures I do know what
they are and thus I know my way around a drawing room, dining room and board room and yet can still
fit in down at the corner bar or tavern. For me it's just another set of skills to be turned on or off as the situation warrants.
by sleepin'dawg
When it comes to poor or non-existent typing skills I readily admit I'm a complete klutz. Spelling, while important in more formal arenas, really isn't crucial in these forums. However, poor grammar is an entirely different matter. Nothing labels your social origins as readily as the grammar used in one's communications formal or
informal. Social origin shouldn't matter but in the cold light of the real world it often does and as I pointed out it isn't incurable. Community colleges have courses that can rectify the matter; in fact they even have courses in a whole slew of social skills. I did not create the circumstances or the situation BigAbe finds himself in nor do I approve of it. All I was saying is that the potentiality of what could be happening can be dealt with in a semester or two at a community college or someother type of school.
I am beginning to think grammar skills are not the only thing lacking. Perhaps reading and comprehension skills could use some reinforcement for certain people. Reverting to a colloquialism,
"Geez people, get a grip." I am not now nor did I ever say this was how I see him; It's how he may be perceived by others. In fact I quite specically
said his written communications could make one wonder if his oral skills were equally dismal. An analogy might be if you put a flashy cover on a phone book and a plain brown wrapper on the newest
best seller; it would be the phone book that gets picked up first. I know we aren't supposed to judge a book by it's cover but face it; in real life that is exactly what happens.
For whatever it's worth I use the Columbus typing
method; Find the right key and land on it.
by meesha
by sleepin'dawg
I don't doubt it has happened but I am surprised he has/is getting away wih it. How can she be dismissed or disciplined? It's like that old joke,
"Have you slept with my secretary??? No??? Good!!!
You fire her." Most companies have rigid rules against this very thing. There is nothing against
marriage providing the parties are not on the exact same branch of the organization chart. Even nepotism is discouraged. You can help your son get hired but no way will he be allowed to work for you unless of course you happen to own the company. The management structure in your company borders on corporate incest.
If you are as good as you say you are keep flogging your resume around. Here's one old fart
who does not mind hiring people with a few extra miles on the odometer. Actually older staff are more reliable if they have no pre-existing medical conditions and sometimes even with one we will make an exception. We have no restrictions on colour, sex or religion so why should we complain about a few years. The only thing we demand is ability to do the job and relocation to where we are or where we would need you. So don't just sit there get a wiggle on and while you're complaining about your years remember Colonel Harland Sanders was 67 yars old when he opened the first Kentucky Fried Chicken. You're only as old as you allow yourself to think you are.
by sleepin'dawg
Hi Richards - Here's that damnable dog again!
We have no idea why a new manager was brought in.
What happened to the previous manager? Did he get
discharged for cause? If so, are his subordinates
being tarred with the same brush and if so, why?
Maybe BigAbe has an inflated ego or sense of his
own capabilities. Who knows? T'is not I and most
certainly not you. Maybe my previous conclusion that the new manager was a snob and/or just plain
didn't like BigAbe is correct. Unfortunately, we'll never know as BigAbe hasn't seen fit to inform us as to the resolution of this matter.
Empathy has a place but I feel constructive criticism would be a better choice especially if it is viewed as such and in the proper spirit.
by mmitos3
by steven131313
by picmajik
Much the same thing happened to me, replaced in-line when a new group was imported into management and didn't apparently care for my IS management style after I had plied it there for 12 or 13 years. Given just as little explanation, like you.
Once the new manager was in place over me, I performed my now-purely technical duties to the best of my ability and effort. I didn't take time to sabotage the new guy's efforts of withhold assistance - no reason to assasinate him, he was just trying to find a job. I held my head high and continued to offer the best IT advice I could in light of my extensive knowledge of their business. I slept well at night.
Of course, all the time I also looked for my next post and found it about a year later, with a larger staff in a more technically progressive environment (i.e they have resources to exert in IT, compared to my years of getting by with nothing in my prior post). I left on the best of terms and am still able to offer them (two + years later) some technical nuggets in an independent manner.
So my advice is to just take the high road. Give the place an honest day's work, don't burn any bridges all while you look for the next stop in your IT career. You'll sleep well at night, might even outlast the folks who replaced you and, if you get lucky like I did, might find yourself in a better place than you would ever have dreamed of applying for. Best of luck.
After six years of dedicated service, if tis is the best this "firm" can do, then MOVE ON. Something is very, very wrong in a situation that hires new and promotes over the old and experienced. Either you were somehow ineffecient and/or were not preforming as per their expectations.Or something else to which you have no lnowledge was "Really "going on. If this is the case, you have a right to be informed. As for this "You still have a Job" nonsense, this is their way of telling you to either accept the crumbs or go. I definitely would go. By staying you have shown that you are willing to be a floormat, losing even more respect in their eyes. Surely a man with your experience can get himself setup in a better position than the one you're puting up with right now. All the good manners and proper spelling in the world aren't going to help you if the Boss has decided that you are expendable, as is so evident in your case. They've insulted you on purpose, hoping you would go. If it were me, I would demand a full explanation, and at the same time be looking for another job. Then I would require an affidavit stating the amount of time that I worked at this"Firm" and the steps taken by me, to get where I was. I would then, make sure that the reasons I give for leaving "Are My Own", not because you were forced out of your position as this could damage your integrity with any possible future Boss. Either way, in this firm, it's a No Win situation for you and I would move on as fast as possible.
They don't deserve you and someone else just might appreciate you a little more and act in accordance with your talent and dedication. You'll never know,unless you try. But whatever you do, get out fast.
Good Luck.
AaB
by lazokolie
Dear member,
This is just a new challenge for a probably better prospect. Change can be difficult at times like yours, but you must brace up to it. If you get discouraged, you might snowball into a non performance, which could affect your future appraisals.
It is possible that your new boss have seen your past performances and needed someone of such decorum to manage this position, little wonder he posted you there.
You are expected to maintain the excellent performance in your new position, after all, you were not born into helpdesk job.
If you take up this challenge seriously, you will simply continue to excel and become the envy of your peers.
I expect to hear from you on the outcome of this game.
Cheer up guy, and stay on top.
Regards,
Laz.
by bigabe
Since my original post last year, I have read all of your replies. Each one has given me much food for thought into my dilemma (spelled correctly this time).
I am still with the same company, and still in QA. I have basically took this situation and weighed the good and bad. My decision to stay was based on two main points.
1. Building a knowledge of an area that I had no previous experience.
2. I have 3 weeks of vacation and I am fully vested with the company.
I worked too long and hard to just throw all that away. I am enjoying the QA environment and recently put in for an open manager's position in QA.
The director that moved me, is no longer with the company. My new director, knows me and my history with the company since my first day. I feel this will have a positive outcome.
I am happy and enjoying this new QA knowledge and challenge.
by xitmanager
I just finished reading many of the posts in this discussion. Sadly, I had the same thing happen to me just over a year ago. After "living" my job as Systems Manager for close to 23 years, I found my self caught between a reorganization and my disfunctional supervisors (a narcissistic director and her control freak assoc. dir.). I had years of meritorious service and covered every level of technology from PCs to mainframes, networks, programming interfaces...you name it, I did it. Suddenly it was all gone...an outside consultant came in and decided I needed an advanced degree. Now I work in a different department (they let me keep my higher pay), play with spreadsheets and databases, and am trying to upgrade my programming skills. I have spent a year in greaving and anger at what happened and am slowly trying to disengage. "I'm not dead yet" as they say but I really resent the powerlessness of it all. I live with the constant fear that I will eventually lose my job and have lost total faith in the belief that if you work hard and do a good job, you'll be rewarded.
p.s. after I was "moved" they hired a guy with an advanced degree. He was fired after 2 months because he couldn't do the job and there has been no one in that position since.
by nowikn
Abe, I was in your same shoes a few months ago . . . however, my outcome was much different than yours as I was eventually let go. IMO, you got very lucky and should count your lucky stars.
Good luck in the future! :)
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