Migrating From Novell To Windows 2003

I have never helped a business remove Novell and revert to a MS headache before. I have been practically begged by those that were told to do this to help them revert BACK to Novell though after they got rid of the MCSE that talked them into it.

With NOvell Linux and Netware 7, why would ANY company possibly benefit from Microsoft? Did they hire a bunch of excess tachs and simply don't want to fire them so by reverting to MS they will keep them all busy?

Why sell the Ferrari for a Dodge Intrepid?

Your Nuts - Stay with Novell 100% better network, application and file sharing product than MS trash.

I wouldn't make the move - I would upgrade my Novell - cheaper - better - Faster...

You'll hate all the patches and fixes - and BS you'll have to do to keep Microtrash save and secure...

Everyones responses is just unbelievable!!
I appreciate all the responses even though
everyone is against this migration....

I don't know what to say but is it that bad
of a move even with windows server 2003 being out in the market for about 1.5 years?

Thanks Guys

Manycaps,

My 2c worth, what is the reason for migrating to MS from Novell?

If you are using NW for file and print services, you will sadly be disappointed with MS's performance. You'll need a lot more hardware to perform the same as NW, Active Directory is very flaky and less scalable than eDirectory. You'll spend you life shutting down your servers to apply patches and security updates, you'll always be waiting for the next virus/trojan/worm attack, and spend you life restoring file from tape (VSC is nowhere near as good as salvage is!).

The only time that I have seem the move to NW to MS being a viable/profitable alternative is when a company standardises on a MS backend and does a fair amount of development on applications that use MS products, such as SQL server, Exchange...

Steven

I agree with the other posts - it would make more sense to talk to Novell about an upgrade to Novell Nterprise - http://www.novell.com/solutions/nterprise/ - and opens the way for Linux on the desktop.

This has the possibility of very secure and cost effective systems with Microsoft Wondows XP Pro only running on systems that need Windows based apps.

Both IBM and HP have hardware certified for Novell's SUSE Linux - from the mainframe/datacentre to the desktop including laptops. They will also help with setup and configuration of the networks.

We did this about 3 years ago. As I recall, we imported all the user IDS from NDS to AD (not passwords, of course). Then we went through by departments making the switch: copying data and home directories, removing Novell client, and getting the users logged in. Not too painful, overall.

We had the luxury of additional hardware rather than trusting a backup and restore, which helped a lot. I strongly suggest this approach, which allows for a staged migration, rather than trying to cut everything over at once.

Don't be a follower of the MS - Stay with Novell and upgrade to Novell 6 - 1200% better product - more secure -

DON'T BE STUPID - :-)

I don't think that the replies have been carping, so much as trying to help someone no to make a disaterous mistake!
I care for Linux, Netware, and M$ in many environments. Try HIPAA compliance for example.. M$ takes thrice the work as other NOS systems to secure. Remember, Linux and Netware are secure by nature, and take a good admin to open, whereas M$ is insecure by nature, and takes a GREAT admin to secure. Zenworks and Edirectory can virtually cut the work to create and maintain desktop lockdowns and user maintenance to a minimum effort. Active directory and poledit pale in comparison.
Let him ride a live horse!

Though many companies have 'swallowed the Kool-Aid' over the last few years, I have seen nothing compelling within Micrsoft networking to justify the change. In the long run, it will cost more money, and not work as well.

Microsoft has, over the years, developed some truly innovative software - just not in the networking arena!

There are benefits to each OS. Realizing they they each have their their stong points, we have seamlessly integrated both OS', and have had a mixed, synchronized environment for over 6 years. We run SQL2K, IIS, MS Proxy, and SAP R/3 on Server 2K pro, and eDirictory, Groupwise, Zenworks, and NDPS printing on our Netware boxes. Our domain and directory structure are completely integrated and provide us with a single point of network login for our users, and single point of network management via eDirectory.

As many have previously stated. Do not let the decisions of the masses dictate a 'technical' choice for you. Select the best products for your needs and take the time and extra effort to learn how to 'integrate' them into your environment as seamlessly as possible. When you can do that, you'll know you're a true LAN manager.

We moved from a 4.11 Netware server to a Windows 2003 server.
Getting the data over was easy, Xcopy did the trick and quickly.

You can still use the 'salvage' feature, only it's called Shadow File Restore. It works like a damned charm.

I've heard netware 6.x is seriously wonky. I loved our Netware servers, they were work horses, but it's true, very few apps are being supported on a Netware environment. Plus, Novell is moving into the Linux world.

Sorry, but I won't post any opinions on whether or not NW is better than MS or vice versa. I try to stay on topic :)

Check out this website:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/sfn/default.mspx

I also have a great presentation (that I didn't get a digital copy of) that I can FAX over to you if you'd like. Just shoot me an email with your FAX #.

Before doubting Linux and repeating the age old learning cure analogy, look at SUSE Linux for desktops.

ANY Microsoft use can use this INSTANTLY without even realizing they left Microsoft. It even comes bundled with Open Office which is almost 100% MS Office compatible (Publisher, Word, Exell etc.)with the exception of SOME Exell macros, but it's still version 1.1.1 so these things will be fixed and yes you can get them free.

SUSE for personal use? $29.00
Corporate use? $59.00

Includes OPEN OFFICE and is JUST as easy to use as microsoft.

If you go to Novell's website and search for SUSE LiVE you can download a ull bin file that creates a bootable CD. Just boot with teh CD and you can play with SUSE on the linux kernel.

Remove CD and reboot, you are right back to your old OS with no changes.

Unless you've seen or tried Linux (SuSE or XD2) in 2004, there's no possible way you can form such an opinion, especially based on the age old learning curve agyment, that's been gone for a while now.

SophTech has done few Migration Projects from Novell to Win2000/2003.

For more information please email me at blevkovitz@sophtech.com

Thx

There is a story, perhaps apocryphal, of a Novell server that was accidentally enclosed in a space with no doors. It seems that a building was being remodeled, and the contractor made a mistake and created a room with no door to it. Inside that room was a novell server.

Now this server worked for years, including handling some power failures. It fended off attacks from the outside world, required no maintenance at all.

The server eventually came to the attention of the staff when some bean counter tried to inventory it, and refused to accept that simply because it was working, that meant it existed. So they had to find it to satisfy the bean counter.

Novell has a decades-long reputation for buliding solid, reliable systems. Microsoft has a reputation for... what. Yes, they spend a million zillion dollars for marketing, and I suppose your management has been hypnotized by all that marketing. But you, well, you have to make it work.

Resist the temptations of the dark side.

Or... if your management is concerned that Novell is about to go out of business (seems unlikely), then consider Linux or FreeBSD instead.

Remember, your servers have to work. Let Microsoft get a few years exeperience before you trust your reputation and your company to something unproven.

Whether or not it is a wise business solution may not be in the realm of our friend's options.

So, reluctantly, I agree with penaflor@dsrsd.com - visit http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/sfn/default.mspx and anywhere else you need to explore to get help.

On the other hand, if you do have ANY influence on the business decision, please reconsider the move. Others on this forum have given you a lot of reasons to do so in favor of retaining the Novell platform. The most important thing to consider, going forward, is philosophy. The .Net philosophy is a closed philosophy which engenders all of the inherent qualities of entropy and inbreeding. While it provides services, it only provides its own proprietary standards which place you at the whim of your provider. If they decide to end support a previous proprietary standard in favor of a "new" standard, you are faced with the decision of putting out the money to move to the new platform (which supports the new standard) or hope that you can limp along on the old platform until you can afford it. That is, assuming they are providing a migration path and that your application vendor is able to keep up with the new non-standard standard being forced on you. MS wants to close their networks and tie you up. Novell, on the other hand has adopted the "one Net" philosophy which involves in providing necessary services to all users seamlessly, regardless of the platform an application may be running on. Nterprise services are only 25% of the of the services areas available. 90% of 2 of the other 3 areas are available with Nterprise Netware 6.5. Nsure and ExteNd. The only major products that require separate expenditure are ZENWorks, GroupWise and BorderManager. The Nsure area provides for the management and delivery of secure Single Sign On (SSO) authentication to disparate networks and applications. ExteNd allows you to deliver applications from multiple OS platforms through secure portals on a web browser both inside and outside your physical network, eliminating the need for VPNs or Terminal servers.

Novell is NOT abandoning Netware as is reported by others here. They are extending Netware to the Linux kernel as well. Having a single Novell 6.5 server in your network brings with it a myriad of services that are reliable, scalable and easy to manage, providing they are implemented properly. References have been made to NW 6.5 as not being as reliable as previous versions. A NW 6.5 server will allow you to manage your AD providing that level of security and the ability for SSO and without your MS users ever knowing it. It will allow for the integration of your network and the ability to embrace new technologies going forward, including MS Server 2003 and Linux. If you have upgrade protection you will be ready to implement 7.0 on the Linux platform when it becomes available later this year. Unlike the release of the much touted continually delayed Longhorn (vaporware squared), Novell will be releasing its NW 7.0 on both Linux and DOS a full year AHEAD of the original expected release! They have already released Novell Netware Linux Services, ZENWorks and GroupWise for the Linux platform. You should also know that eDirectory, ZENWorks and GroupWise also run NATIVELY on MS Servers. This is an example of the difference between .Net and "one Net". One Net will allow you to seamlessly integrate and deliver "best of breed" applications and services in your network without limiting the platforms you may require.

ZENWorks alone can produce a 1000%+ (not 100%) ROI within 3 years. This is not pie-in-the-sky but is documented by several companies. Other Novell products and services may not produce as dramatic an ROI but are still substantial enough to warrant careful consideration.

Take some time and visit: http://www.novell.com/solutions/

Good Luck!

Currently working on migrating to Windows 2003 Server from Novell 4.10 at one of our offices. I have run into many problems during the process, but haven't given up yet.

I think as long as you have a decent Antivirus Deployement/Management System, Backup and Disaster Recovery Plan, Patch Management System, and Firewall Unit, you will be fine. Out of all the things listed, they are all needed on pure Novell networks also. Proper planning and knowing what your needs/requirements are and using some common sense when setting it all up is key.

My advice when migrating to Windows 2003 is really get to know Active Directory and whats required for it to run smoothly, that's where my pitfalls have been.

To all the Novell/Linux/Other people bad mouthing Microsoft. Every OS/NOS has it's Pros/Cons, Bugs, and Security Holes, nothing is pefect in this world, but some day it will be, but not on this earth.

anyone who for nothing else then their own pleasure messes up the systems businesses depand on should be shot on sight?

Is that really what you're saying?

What is the definition of a virus anyway? And will killing the symptoms cure the cause?

Also, remember Pascal, BASIC, CP/M, UUCP, MSX, HTTP, SMTP, BIND? Just a few examples. The world didn't and doesn't need Microsoft or any other one company to "move on". It that was the case then the world would be in a very sorry state indeed.

Does some new software require a Microsoft Server? If it does add a new server. The Microsoft Server will require more resources and maintanence than the Novell server.

I have yet to come across any issues with Novell that could not be resolved. I use 6.5 and found an answer to any issues I encountered. Ver 5 is not dead, I have customers still running 4.11 with no issues. I'm sure I will get a customer with 3.12 still running with no issues.

Add a Microsoft server to your network, manage users from Novell. Two servers will not hurt, and you only have to run the app that requires Microsoft.

If you are going to have < 101 users and 5 servers check out Novells small business package. More bang for the buck and much less costly than Microsoft(small, flacid (look it up)).

If you HAVE TO........... The best thing that I can tell you is DON'T.
But if you feel you must, I'll tell you how an admin I know did it.

He migrated by installing all apps from scratch and created a new network beside the current network. It ran very smooth UNTIL he started migrating users. It seemed that as he added more users it got slower and slower (he ended up with 60 users per server). He had tons of memory per server (4 GB), fast disk controllers 128mb and HD's (15K RPM). He added memory, checked daily for viruses and virus updates, ran Spybot S&D, Adaware, Symantec AV and disabled the Arcserve Backup software until they were ready to use it at night. It was a mess. He maintained 98% uptime but worked his butt off doing it; the stress was killing him. On his Novell 5.1 servers he maintained 99.999% uptime for 3 years and I never saw him stress except when applying Service Packs.
This guy has worked with NT and 2000 server. He trained for months on 2003. He has 15 years of experience in IT. I consider him very good at his job.

SO, why did he move to 2003? Because a consultant (from 50 miles away, no doubt,), said the company needed to move away from NW and to MS 2003.

He ended up quitting. The new admins (2, count em, 2) (outsourced) claim the problem is bad hardware (it's top of the line HP/Compaq; it's NOT the hardware). They maintain 95% uptime and brag about it. Management just accepts it. Nobody is working anymore. Everyone who misses a deadline just blames it on IT problems and management accepts the excuse. Hey!, it's outsourced; the new admins don't have to worry about their jobs because of low uptime.

Where was it mentioned that a desktop upgrade was taking place? You can put Linux/Samba/LDAP in the backend and the end user doesn't notice anything. I've done it. Better yet, install Novell NLS. Did that too.

As for most users, my kids and wife go between WinXP and Linux (KDE on the desktop) without knowing the difference. I've seen them in Linux and inform them about it and they give me a look like, "Yeah, so." No training involved.

I work at a university and have several public terminals and PCs. The terminals are Sun Rays in kiosk mode and the PCs run WinXP. Users (both student and public) go between the two platforms without incident. There was no training involved here either. Perhaps you underestimate your users ability to comprehend.

"panty wearing Linux hackers"

Who has to have their hands held when the gui isn't present? Windows admins. Most of the Windows network admins I know couldn't begin setup/fix their Windows boxen without their precious gui. BTW, I have a few Windows boxes, but they are an endangered species in my server room.

"Bill Gates put together a team that developed software that made it possible for the world to have desktop PCs and it eats them to their core."

Actually, what eats them to the core is that it is faulty OS that has been extremely insecure and unstable. Redmond is just starting to get a clue about this.

"...develop a real, user-friendly system that rivalled Microsoft and one the public could use without having to be a computer genius.."

Ever hear of a Mac. Long before Bill and Co. it was Apple. MS just ripped them off. Apple, btw, just ripped off Xerox, but did it in front of their faces, not behind their back. Also, if AT&T hadn't sued Berkley back in the early 80's, FreeBSD would probably be a very dominant desktop OS.

Wait for Novell to release OES. Should be out around Jan/Feb next year. Beta testing is ramping up. That will give you the choice of either Netware 7 or SLES 9 with the entire Netware stack on either kernel.

A deptartment where I work, migrated to W2k a couple of years ago from NT4 domain and they are still not completely finished. Bad move.

There appear to be varying opinions, as there should be with regards to Novell environments and MS Windows environments. Yes, there are indeed some trade offs on both sides. All of the individuals that have commented in this section are well equipped with experience and knowledge enough to make a fair assessment of the question at hand. I currently work as a private consultant supporting a large client base of various types of companies in various business domains using various system configurations. What I have found is that the decision to go with a particular system or its alternatives, or a mix of system environments is all based on the business need and how that business supports its customers. We as technologists tend to believe that somewhere along the time line during this technological evolution that we will drive the business and it will cater to what we have provided it. But the reality is that we will always have to tailor the technology to the business practice.

We will use technology to influence change, hopefully for the better. But the business practice environment should be a primary in the determining factor. You will find that there are too many variables to say one system environment is better than the other for any given situation. I know some of my clients are happy with their Novell environment because it is stable and does what it needs to do for them to support their customers, and others want to move to Microsoft based environments founded on the requirement to facilitate an interface with there customers who are soley Microsoft shops, and again others don't even care and probably would not know the difference.

The prominent issue at hand is what is good for the business practice, the process, and supporting the business customer. You are really going to have to do gap analysis, risk assessment, and perhaps a cost/benefit analysis focused directly against your companies needs in supporting their customers among other things to make a well informed decision. Utilizing information in all the posts here and doing the appropriate analysis and planning in your situation will yield the highest ROI for your company as it moves forward.

We just heard awhile back from one of our software vendors (Blackbaud) that they are no longer supporting Novell. We are seriously looking for other vendors. Our experience with Novell has been too good to dump them just because another vendor (that has competition) thinks Novell isn?t worth their time anymore.

If enough of us did that, maybe the vendors would get the idea that MS is NOT the only game in town.

Two years ago I took out a 5 year old Netware/Dell server. I had one abend on it when I installed Blackbaud and had it configured wrong. Other than that one time (that was my fault) there were ZERO crashes on that server for it?s five year life. How many MS shops can say that?

Novell: No lost data. No viruses. Downtime when I schedule it. How can I give that up?

By the way, we?re on Netware 6.0 now. I?ve not had the server down for just over a year. I should probably check for patches and schedule a time to install them.

I find these arguments humorous. Novell was once the better server platform but hardware is so fast these days that that no longer makes any difference. Put Novell and Windows on the same box you won't notice any difference in file access.

Let me start (er continue) by saying that I am a CNE on Netware 5 and a CNA on GroupWise. Both are great products and I loved supporting them. 2.5 years ago I migrated our law firm from Groupwise to exchange and Netware to 2000 Server. I have not had a single Microsoft server OS infected by a virus.

If you are a good administrator you take prudent steps to avoid infections. I take the same exact precautions with Microsoft products as I did with novell. I block all executable file types in email, I virusscan all email messages and files systems. I block all incomming and outgoing ports on my firewall that are not necesary.

And yes, I install all Microsoft patches one Saturday a month unless it is a serious threat I do it immediately. My workstations get critical updates automatically every night and virus definition updates every 2 hours. I think that anyone that has had major problems with viruses on Microsoft products is not doing their job.

How hard is that? It is not.

Now the only real argument that I see for Novell is cost. Novell is much more affordable. But that alone is not a reason to use it. You must look at the applications that are required in your environment. I work in a law firm and there is not a single networked legal research app that we use that is supported on Novell. And, jeez, forget about finding legal research apps on Linux. They do not exist.

With all this taken into consideration. If you are starting a new network, money is on short hand, the only application you need is an Office compatible suite then by all means use Novell and Linux.

If you want to make sure that any and every product you use and will need to use in the future is compatible with your system use Microsoft.

I have done the upgrade that you are considering and I do not regret it in the least. I still like to play with Novell to keep my skills sharp. You never know what you will be supporting in the future. Feel free to shoot me an email and ask me anything about the upgrade.

You'd better have some $ound reasons for doing it dude! I've been in both worlds, NT and Novell, and I'll take Novell ANY day. The only time my server goes down is when I bring it down. And that is very rare. It's the Engergizer Bunny of operating systems.

Even now, we have one sw vendor who wants all the customers to go to the dark side. Eventually, I'll have to, but I'll get another server, not replace Novell. I'll just hang it on my Netware network and do everything I can to hide it from the outside.

This migration makes sense if you NEED to. If you are installing new applications that only work with Windows on the backend, and if you have no choice on that software, then carefully plan the migration and do what you have to do.
I have faced this problem and have done it several times and you can make the system "stable" but not in the terms of stability you had with Novell.
I recommend all my clients reboot Windows 2K servers once/week to avoid inconveniences like printers not printing.
Most of my customers are small.. 5-50 users and I usually just recreate directory info and move files to the new server so if you mean an automated migration I have not done that.
I sell/install Netware/Windows/Linux and recommend Novell unless there is a software requirement that prohibits it or an application vendor that says we won't support our product on Novell. Some of my clients are mixed with some Netware and Windows servers and for the most part they work OK together. It does take more time to manage the Windows boxes and Active Directory in my experience.
Drop me an e-mail if I can help you farther.

I find it incredible that so many people out there, admins included, fall for the b.s. from vendors that "claim" their software won't run on Netware. I can't count how many times I have been told that I will need to install a Windows server in order to use the app. Of course I don't expect the sales guy to be able to answer any technical questions, but when I get on the phone with either a pre-sales engineer or tech support, I am shocked to hear what they say.

All I really ask them is "Does your product run at the server level or at the workstation level (i.e. is it a client server app, or is the workstation doing all the work)?"

95% of the time they say that the workstation is doing all of the processing and all that the server is doing is storing the data and the executables. I then ask, "So in other words, you just need a mapping to the server to access the executables and the data?" A resounding "Yes" follows, and then I just laugh. I then tell the so-called knowledgeable tech-support or pre-sales engineer, that Microsoft is not the only company that makes a server that you can make a mapping to. In the old days there were other NOSes like LANtastic, PC-LAN, Banyan Vines, etc., that did the same thing. Today it pretty much comes down to Microsoft & Novell.

The vendor than goes on the defensive and the truth comes out - "Well, our developers and support staff only know Windows, so that is what we have tested it on and can support it on."

From there is just goes down hill.

The ignorance of some people can be incredible. Unless you run an all Microsoft shop (i.e. Exchange, Office, Back Office, .NET, etc.) there are a lot of choices out there.

Take for example email. The top 3 products are Exchange, Notes & Groupwise. The Notes server runs on Windows, AIX, Linux/Unix, AS/400 and OS/390. Hell it used to run on OS/2 and Netware at one point in time. Groupwise server runs on Netware, Windows and Linux. Exchange --- you guessed it, Microsoft only.

Before anyone makes a switch from one NOS to another ask around and do your homework. If management is asking why are we still using "this" instead of "that", do your homework and show them the costs involved in switching and support. And for pete's sake, don't let some outside consultant/vendor/know-it-all tell you that you need to switch for some b.s. reason.

In other words, "If it ain't broke, why fix it."

You said:
"As for the reason for the change, your guess is as good as mine. Maybe I'll find out soon."

LOL!!! I'd surely love to be a spider on the wall as the CIO starts doing the numbers on the amount of time all you poor managers are having to do on patches and crashes. Better watch it, betcha he will try to roll the mistake downhill. :x