value of certification

If the employer *really* wants an MCSE - then they will *get* an MCSE. If you don't have an MCSE - you won't get the job. Just like if they want a guy with a BA - then they will get a guy with a BA. Its as simple as that!

now this has nothing to do with a persons ability to do the job. there is absolutly no proof that a BA or MCSE can do a job better than a guy that doesn't have one - it's all about what the employer wants. and the way the IT industry is these days - there is plenty of supply(IT guys) for a very limited demand(IT jobs) - the employer can get whatever they want.

as to the value of certifications - i personally think they are great. the problem is - many IT educational institutions are into the business of over charging for the value of the education and promising miracles to dumb shmo's who want to get into IT.

Hello, reality check! A newly certified MCSE and you will be designing vast and wide Active Directory forests that span across different states - are you kidding me! Are you out of your mind? If that did happen, then that would be a miracle.

lastly, as to actually getting a certification. you don't have to pay an IT goofball tons of money for something you can just as easily learn on your own by either hangin out on the net (for MCSE you hang out at the Microsoft site, specifically Technet and Support Forums) or buy a book for a fraction of the price of the courses.

Good Luck

by choppit Dec 20, 2004

My background is pretty much like yours and I've asked myself the same questions. All other things being equal at a job interview, the more qualified candidate is likely to get the job. Would it be possible for you to self study then take the exams?

I chose not to pursue certifications and learn only what I need to know, interests me or can be applied to benefit the business. In many situations (but not all) a Jack of all trades is more valuable than a specialist, particularly in small businesses.

a specialist will always make more money than a jack of all trades.

by mrafrohead Dec 20, 2004

A jack of all trades is acting as a specialist to individual places.

by oz_media Dec 20, 2004

A jack of all trades is always employed.

How many specialists are on THIS site alone that do not work in their field of specialty? Therefore not being paid for their ability at all.

I personally have proven you wrong many times, I often beat out far more qualified 'specialist' candidates based on hands on experience, drive and a better attitude fit with the employer. I offer more to the employer, therefore I am a greater overall asset that won't cry and whine when the job description changes as it progresses. I can't tell you how many ties we have seen people post here that they strted with one 'specialty' job in mind and are being asked to do oter tasks and don't feel they should have to.

I know who I'd hire anyway.

by choppit Dec 22, 2004

1. An employed specialist will always make more money than a Jack of all trades in the SAME field. The Jack of all trades will always have an easier time staying employed.

2. Since when did your value to a business have anything to do with your salary?

by nd_it Dec 21, 2004

I choose the learn the things I need to know for the company (small business). You tend to wear different hats here. I don't have any certs, and am not looking to "specialize" in anything. I really don't want to spend my time and money on a cert or boot camp that I might not utilize.

have you looked into how much it costs to get training on BI applications? makes the MCSE program seem like a bargain bin deal.

by mrafrohead Dec 20, 2004

I'll tell you this much.

Personally, I HATE certs, I think that they're a waste of time and absolutely bogus in telling of one's skillz with a computer.

BUT for some reason, HR (human resources) seems to think that they are of value. And by HR, I mean at almost any business out there...

I recently finally caved and got my A+. I was taking a shower one day, and decided I was going to get it, found a testing place an hour later and took both tests, passed on the first try, dun dun dunnnn... (It's A+, personally I don't think that that says much, it says, Hey Look at me, I know what a power button is and can turn on a nifty little computer.) The tests were absolutely stupid, and IMO a waste of time. BUT for some reason, all of the sudden, I'm a little more marketable and worth a little more, because I have a piece of paper. The ironic part is, I know NO more than I did before I took that silly little test.

Do you think I carry my stupid little "comptia" card around with me? Hell no. Am I proud of it? I was the first few days. Now when I think of it, it actually puts me into a mood of just absolute disgust, because it really doesn't tell anyone what I know. I never took classes or cracked a book to test, but now for some reason I'm better than I was the day before I took it.

When I see a person that has a ton of certs on their silly little business cards, what I (personally) see, is the schmuck on the networking side that will be coming over to MY side (the helpless desk) and getting all of the answers because they don't know shit about a computer or how they work. They have all the pretty pieces of paper, and don't know how to actually apply it. Where as I am completely self taught, and don't really have any paper, but I can actually fix almost anything that I have to...

Hope that helps a little bit....

Mrafrohead

If I were you, and I had the money to spend, I would spend it on something more of value. Like furthering my education (on computers, or whatever you're curious about), but if you don't need the certs now and are comfortable where you are, I wouldn't waste my money on them.

That's what employers are for. If they want you to have the cert, waste their lame money on it... ;p

by oz_media Dec 20, 2004

Screw certs buy a case of beer instead, money well spent!! Cheers mate!

by uofm Dec 20, 2004

if your the hr person and you need to filter out a thousand resumes.

Or - if you're interviewing in a small business environment and you will be the only IT guy (read: the person interviewing you knows little about IT)

Now - I'm only refering to those certs that are dime a dozen.. MCxx, (anything)+, etc and only require you to pass a test without any other qualifications.

Just my .02.

As for specialization vs coverage. I think the smaller the shop, a jack of all trades will be more valuable. But most "jacks" are typically more entry to mid level folks... to advance past that, you'll need that specialization skill in a sector (security, networking, programming etc..), or be able to manage.

by oz_media Dec 20, 2004

MOST employers I have dealt with require certs or equivalent work experience. If your experience outshines any certified applicant you should be fine in most cases, there are many employers who really think that certs mean ability, which they don't in any way. Almost anyone can get a cert, but only a few of them can properly apply and develop the abilities into a useful skillset.

Where I live, BC, Canada, they are SCREAMING for IT staff. You don't need certs just a good attitude, plus most companies here hire based on your personality fit with the organization and not paperwork.

In MANY cases (online especially)I see people who swear by certs and you MUST have them to get a good paying job, not form what I've seen. On the other hand, those same websites are FULL of people who say they have a bunch of certs and just can't find work, so figure that one out?!

So I think it's safe to say, your drive and energy mixed with real time experience will suffice in most cases. Certs seem to be for those who want paper to find work for them or speak on their behalf instead of showing proven successes in the workplace.

If you are like me, a jack of all trades by falling into them and figuring it out, then you have enough ingenuity to succeed without paperwork. If you are one who can only learn from being trained, then certs are the easy way to go.

Best of luck,
OM

by jdmercha Dec 21, 2004

So, are these IT jobs advertised anywhere?

Yes there are many jobs in Vancouver and the surrounding area advertised on garbage outlets like Monster.ca and Techvibes (okay Techvibes are a good bunch), newspapers etc.

But most jobs here are found just by popping in the pub, or even just cold calling a business and pitching yourself. No certs, no matter if they like your attitude. No position available? If hey like you they will create one.

Now as for the BC interior, Fort St.John for one (not a great place in the winter) have commercials running all over BC, if not the rest of Canada, saying move to Ft.St.John as there is a tonne of work available. Tradespeople (IT included) are flocking there for high salary, great opportunities with growing and thriving businesses.

But just look at some of the popular job search engines and see if you are not more than qualified (by their expectations) to get a job PDQ. Some ask for certs, but mostly as an alternative to experience.

BC has been advertising itself as the PLACE TO LIVE for a few months now, ads say how th ebudget is balanced, the workforce is showing the greatest growth in Canada etc. The unemployment rate if a bit off though, as many are making a lot of money with grow ops in the interior. Thus they will never go back to work.

i am a jack of all trades. and i watch specialists get paid 10x what i get paid and they don't have to know 1/10th of the broad knowledge I have to know to keep up with my job performance requirements.

all the specialists have to know is what they specialize in - and they have to know it very very well. they don't know anything else - just that. they couldn't get 2 windows machines to file share without calling MS tech support to save their lives.

specialists in LotusNotes, Peoplesoft, SAP, IXOS, Cognos -- you name it. all the BI app specialists will out salary you any day of the week with their eyes closed.

so why don't you quit selling CompTIA advertizing and get yourself a *real* job in the *real* IT world.

I make what my friends 'the security specialists' make when I'm sitting at home. I am not rich by any means,but I enjoy a very comfortable life as a result of being a jack of all trades.

If I get called out for IT work, $150.00/hr, if I fix a car at home $60.00/hr, if I do a frame off restoration it's 40K - 70K depending on the car, my residual checks from CD's come in four times a year (which is staggered so it's four from Europe and four from the US) and I get the odd public speaking, motivational speaker call (they pay big!). I don't need to specialize in something to earn a living.

Instead of wasting time in IT schools I went to trade school and while there built a business on the side, several of them actually.

Now when it comes to IT, I BEGAN working FT for a company at a fair but lower wage than the specialist techs did, they quickly found that I was capable of many other tasks they needed done, as each was added my hand was out for money. They can either hire two people or pay me more to do both jobs.

I ended up making FAR more money than he specialists who once trumped me, before the ocmpany let me move and work form home at an equal salary.

It's just a matter of choosing the right company to go and work for, not having the certs so that the right company chooses you.

These 'spcialists' spend quite a bit of time complaining on TR about how they have certs and yet only have help desk jobs, or that their company is outsourcing their specialty. So what, NEXT!...oh yes, there is no 'next' is there, one trade, one profession, one door to knock instead of thousands.

No thanks

Oz, sorry but you are out to lunch on that one. You haven't really worked in IT - have you?

If you did, you would have noticed that most of the money is being made by the people *not* doing the IT work. The *actual* IT work is being done by people who are getting paid a miserable salary.

by lumbergh77 Dec 21, 2004

I agree with you about generalists vs. specialists. Seems to me that the more specialized, the more trapped you are.

by lumbergh77 Dec 21, 2004

...

specialists in LotusNotes, Peoplesoft, SAP, IXOS, Cognos -- you name it. all the BI app specialists will out salary you any day of the week with their eyes closed.

so why don't you quit selling CompTIA advertizing and get yourself a *real* job in the *real* IT world.

by uofm Dec 21, 2004

"i am a jack of all trades. and i watch specialists get paid 10x what i get paid and they don't have to know 1/10th of the broad knowledge I have to know to keep up with my job performance requirements."

That may be the case, but it's probably 10x harder to find someone to replace them. And not as hard to replace you. No offense, but that's the reality of things... its not how smart YOU are. But how much in demand that particular skill set is (or percieved to be).

by mrafrohead Dec 21, 2004

Which one?

HOW MUCH YOU BRING TO THE TABLE.

You can bring a LOT more to the table that is seen as valued by an employer than most specialists can.

Specialist are needed by SOME companies, not most and definitely not all. You can earn more money working with a small or medium sized oranization by offering a broader skillset.

$100K-150Kyr for a specialist?

I have seen sales reps earn more and with far less skill and definitely less time in school. Combine your skillset and you should be able to top any specialist, well unless they are brain surgeons of course. Damn I made that much working from home last year, and that's JUST in IT work, not including other income from other sidelines.

Sounds like some people here have sold themselves short, or simply do not understand what a jack-of-all-trades really means.

"its not how smart YOU are. But how much in demand that particular skill set is (or percieved to be). "

Provide multiple skill sets and you are hard to replace.

MUCH harder than hiring a specialist that some schools churn out like a meat grinder. The world is full of unemployed specialists. Not unemployed people with multiple talents.

SO lets even give you the idea that specialists earn more be peforming a single function than you can be providing ONE of you rmultiple skills. You better hope that company NEEDS that specialist forever and it doesn't go the way of teh MCSE cert where EVERYONE has one, which will happen in no time.

All of a sudden the specialist isn't special, his talent may be but he is easily replaed by someone willing to do the same job for less money, just look through the forums here for the best examples.

A jack of all trades, never unemployed.

My tow main clients have outsourced my position overseas, I used to magange a couple of networks form home for them.

This doesn't mean I am out of work or unemployed by any means though, in fact it just means I have more time to work on other things. I still have a stable and steady income though and am not actively looking for anything.

If I was a specialist? I'd be screwed.

by mrafrohead Dec 21, 2004

"specialists in LotusNotes, Peoplesoft, SAP, IXOS, Cognos -- you name it. all the BI app specialists will out salary you any day of the week with their eyes closed.

so why don't you quit selling CompTIA advertizing and get yourself a *real* job in the *real* IT world."

So why not take your own advice???

He's wrong anyway. It doesn't take an unemployment specialist to figure that one out.

I stopped applying for sys admin jobs long time ago. i am working on upgrading soft skills and project management skill sets.

by bfilmfan Dec 21, 2004

It is a case of perception. And as with a number of things in life, perception is the reality.

Is a college graduate really more valuable than someone with only a high-school diploma and years of experience in the field?

Is a vendor-certified systems engineer more valuable than someone that has garnered their experience in the trenches by breaking cases?

Generally, the answer is no. If the client believes that having a piece of paper makes you a better candidate over another individual, then that is the reality.

Most IT shops are well-aware of the "paper candidate syndrome." Thus, they use technical questions to screen out candidates to determine what do they really know.
Frankly, the paper candidates hurt both non-certified and certified individuals by making possessing a certification worthless. Cisco was one of the few vendors that made sure the candidates possessing the CCIE had to pass a demanding test to claim that certification. It's one of the reasons there are so few of them about.

I fully agree that the MCSE tests seldom test for real-world knowledge or practical experience. Most of the other vendor tests are very similiar in that almsot anyone with 2 years of practivcal experience can usually pass the tests on the first attempt.

My personal advice is if you plan to stay in the field, you need to determine what career path you are seeking to take. Do you want to stay technical and go into consulting? If this is your path, go for the certifications. Sadly, people do like to see all those certifications hanging off their consultants names. It's one of the reasons doctors always hang up their degrees in the waiting rooms.

Do you plan to go into management? If so, I would recommend starting on your MBA. I will be honest and say that I've been in some discussion groups with managers in different industries that have the same opinion on an MBA being as worthless as the vendor certifications are to most of the peers here.

Best of luck on your decision.

by mlayton Dec 21, 2004

You have the right idea in learning the stuff you are not familiar with (really learning it) and reviewing stuff that maybe you haven't done in awhile. If you take the time to do that, go ahead and take the tests. It gets you in the door should you need to send a resume to someone looking for certs. I would skip the A+ though, thats an entry-level cert - it seems like you are beyond that. And I agree with the previous post - if you are looking at transitioning at some point into management, an MBA or technical MS with a Business slant would be valuable. Something with project management and finance is always a plus in today's businesses.

by nd_it Dec 21, 2004

Have you seen any job posting for a specialist?

Most ads are looking for the following: Windows 2000, XP, 2000 server, Linux, Solaris, Java, .NET, Lotus. Must have 5 years experience in each application, oh, and you need to know how to do plumbling and electrical work as well.

One note of correction though, the services you listed were right but usually it says certified OR equivalent work experience. If you have two of three, no problem, they seem to be more interested in perosnality than anything else these days, undertanding just what it takes to build a great empire... a great team.

I have taken several positions in the past where I was by FAR the least 'qualified applicant' but had a better personality fit with the people in the organization. They look for people skills, the rest can be taught.

by nd_it Dec 21, 2004

I think a company would rather hire someone with decent people and tech skills that can learn new things and adapt well to changes than someone with no people skills who punches out code for 8 hours a day and isolates himself in their cubicle from the rest of the world and spends their time on TR discussion boards, oh, might have offended someone :)

i hang out at techvibes. have you bothered to read any of the posts there?

every IT guy this side of Calgary can't find work formatting floppies - god forbit a lvl 1 support gig.

Oz, can you please PLEASE stop smoking dope on the beach and come back to reality and post something that makes sense - thanks.
SL

I have been to several of the Techvibes networking parties (they are actually pretty fun for such a geekfest)and I can tell you that MOST of the people there are looking for staff and happy to hire on the spot, it's a great network.

I have NEVER been on their forums, don't see a point as I live here, I know the industry here as I am in it.

Interface Developer - seeking hands on experience (No certs mentioned)
Web and DTP designer - seeking hands on experience (no certs mentioned)
Marketing manager - seeking hands on experience (No certs mentioned)
VOIP Network Engineer - seeking hands on experience (NO certs mentioned)
Snr. Flash Developer- seeking hands on experience (NO certs mentioned)
Quality Assurance Tester (MMD)- Degree in accounting needed due to nature of business
Systems Engineer - seeking hands on experience (NO certs mentioned)
Lotus Notes Devloper - CLP developer cert needed.
Technical Animator - seeking hands on experience (NO certs mentioned)

These are just a list of the NEWEST postings made today on Tech Vibes and only a FEW of todays postings at that. THey also don't include a search for security or what one would consider specialist fields. However these positions are clearly seeking people who FIT a company and not people with reams of paper and a scrambled alphabet after their name.

This is also from just ONE tech community site (OF MANY, definitely the smallest job listing board out here!), very similar to TR but MUCH MUCH smaller and localized in Vancouver. All these jobs will pay a more than attractive wage to the right people, again without specialties.

Now, pick a specialty and tell me show me how many opportunities there are to make more money than anyone of these people in todays marketplace.

You are talking about a network group where I know the people and the vendors that hire staff each month and pay very good money for people to come aboard.

Electronic Arts is based in Burnaby, that place will hire teeangers at big salaries, I know a guy who clears 100K/yr demonstrating and promoting video games with only a grade 11 education.

Sure degrees help when there are jobs of that nature available, but to make such a bold assertion like you did is absurd!

Specialists will always make more money than people without the degrees/certs? PURE CRAP!

And the comments about smoking dope on the beach yada yada, unappreciated, out of line and truly a good demonstration of just how logical and level headed your comments and assertions are.

Like I've said before, make sense next time.

perhaps they should post some of those opportunties for the poor guys who can't find IT jobs and keep asking other unemployed guys that hand around that site where to get jobs.

by dafe2 Dec 21, 2004

"6 years of experience with a BS degree in Info Systems."

That's where your money will come from. If your interested in staying in IT, focus on the bigger picture.

The "Jack of all IT" trades Big Dollars are gone. Business has "wised up" to this "stuff". If I were you & considering a "CERT" to complement your BS consider something like ITIL, Six Sigma & Project Management and INCLUDE the MCSE or whatever.

See the big picture. Most shops today run SAP, Peoplesoft, Remedy..... IT is now "owned" by finance.

Today the jobs and the dollars come from "specialty" areas of IT such as project & asset management, service management and others.

Now where does that put MCSE's & others? Braindumps & unethical technicians have tarnished this CERT and the industry in general. However, in the last two years the exams and their testing methods are very similar to CISCO. The Exams are extremely rigorous. The MCSE CERT still has a lot of value but needs to have the skill set to back it up. It is now (Or should be) looked at with "scepticism" first. It is slowly gaining back some lost credibility as the industry shakes out the "defective units" so to speak.

They are valuable if they interest you. Completing them LEGITIMATELY gives one a great deal of satisfaction. They will NOT get you a job (but) will prove that you place value on maintaining your skills and are proficient with MS Installations. You'd be hard pressed to complete the MCSE cert in a year and hold down a full time job. Most "real" MCSE's I know usually take 2 - 3 years (Self Study) while working. Anyway, the cert just opens the door a bit.

I think an MCSE with a BS and an ITIL certification in Service Management or SAP specialty would get an offer the day of the interview.

Remember I said earlier that IT is "owned" by Finance....they don't care about generalists & most businesses today "farm out" jack of all trades jobs to call centers. Server rooms today can be run by clerks after all. If the server room "breaks" - They look to someone with Service Management skills to fix it first...then they think about the MCSE or whatever next. Today, an MSCE with a BS & a specialty is not necessarily the one fixing what's wrong.....but he/she is the one that will likely be leading the "jack of all trades" through the process, using Six Sigma principles of course ;-)

There are a lot of employers who need to talk with you and understand that they aren't doing it right.

Do a local search in Vancouver and you'll find a whole bunch of them to call and inform that they siimply cannot hire people with field experience and hands on knowledge without certifications.

I have a friend that runs a company that writes Python coded security scripts/modules for several of the major banks here, six staff that ALL make seven digits, NO CERTS REQUIRED not even an MCSE!
He was approached by an investor a few years back (geez must be 7yrs by now! how time flies) while we played darts for Scotch, they offered him 2.4 million for startup costs and off he went.
I also think people are not realizing what a JACK-of-all-trades really is. A JOAT is not simply someone with multple IT skills, a jack of all trades always has multiple incomes and is NEVER out of work. If I.T. DIED tomorrow, ALL the specialists would be out of work and unemployed for a long time until retrained in a needed field.

A JOAT would simply do the next job.

I am said to be a regular jack of all trades, IT dies, I am a licenced mechanic, THAT dies, I have years of sales management experience, THAT dies I sell, THAT dies I am a second year machinist, THAT dies, I run a work crew, THAT dies...etc.

Having multiple IT positions or skills is definitely NOT a 'jack of all trades', it is a jack of ONE trade. Information Technology is but one of thousands of fields.

For you to assert such blanket generalizations about one of the world's largest industries is simply absurd.

by dafe2 Dec 21, 2004

You may have missed the point........

I did not ever say "employers won't hire you without a cert" hell I can go down the street and get hired for 4 buck n hour. This person has a BS and probably wouldn't get too "excited" about trying to figure out why "Sally Sue on the four floor can't print."

What I was saying, is that quality employers will take that into consideration when offered a package of skill to go allong with it and vice versa.

I suggested simply that if the person was wanting to stay in IT, that based on his skill set he could do a few things that (could) make him a more marketable candidate in IT today.

The term I used (JOAT) to identify the defective units that carry the paper MCSE cert was incorrect.

The term Jack Of All Trades is more commonly associated as you suggested. (The Plumber who is a Lawyer who happens to be a Sales Rep & Carpenter)

I may move to Vancouver but will stand by my comments.

I did use JOAT incorectly. I stand corrected & used the wrong size brush on that one.
It's a big "industry" here in N.B. as well.:-)

i am not sure finance own it - but tradition IT do not. thats for sure.

p.s. have you an idea how hard it is to get a sigma six belt?

And a major $$$$ (We used Ernst & Young.)My older wiser peers tell me mine is still "brown" :-)

Still convinced on Finance ownership though.........awfull lot of beans on that table right now.

Our company is pretty high on six sigma. I hope to go through the certification this coming year. Our corporate office holds training.

by bfilmfan Dec 22, 2004

If only we could do some of those Bruce Lee moves on idiots that say stupid things at meetings.

I have been practicing my squinty eyed look and cat-screaming sounds.

If nothing else, I might scare them to death.

It's well worth it!

That makes no sense whatsoever. I have been in IT for quite a while now and YES I have worked on SEVERAL sites as a netadmin, a telecom SPECIALIST and other stupid little 'roles'. I also do have my MCNE, paid for by a former employer when...you guiessed it, I was a network administrator.

So your whole post is just assumptive and incorrect garbage, make some sense next time.

And what's with the assertion that I am OUT TO LUNCH on it. I offered you a PERSONAL opinion based 100% on personal real life experience, it's not a guess. You have absolutely NO idea at all what the industry and market is like where I am and especially no idea what I think as a result of my experience. Make sense next time!

As for IT WORK, my last position was basically calling IT staff to get jobs done. Whether on client site, their client site etc. People around here know exactly how much time I used to spend working. I have been in MANY different levels of management in my career depending on what industry it was. I understand exactly WHAT you are trying to infer but by MY experience, your conclusions come from some really sorry system or something that I certainly haven't faced.

I have always been in a position where I had equal OPPORTUNITY to make just as much money as anyone else in the company, including the VP, without the need of specialization. It just takes work and proven achievement.
ACHIEVEMENTS!!!!!!! Something everyone seems to forget about once they have a degree. Paper is nothing, results are proof.

After a recent posting I thought you were on that same mindset, my mistake.

NB would be a good place for employment, I know it has always been strong in many fields.

I think the guy you are referring to is the loner from the dark basement who had AMD dreams of better overclocking his homemade white box.

These one time nobody's all of a sudden jumped in as miltitask IT staff for many new startups during the dot com boom. I think they have mainly receded back to the basement and have become the disgrunted virus writers and hackers of the underworld now. I agree, a dead employee!

Now you can't give the wrong impression about low paid call center staff, we have a global forum here. (on second thought, maybe you can!)
Minimum wage is:

Alberta $5.90
BC $8.00 B.C.
Manitoba $7.00
New Brunswick $6.2
Newfoundland $6.00
NWT $8.25
Nova Scotia $6.50
Nunavut $8.50
Ontario $7.15
PEI $6.50
Quebec $7.45
Saskatchewan $6.65
Yukon $7.20

(That's actually pretty sick isn't it?) Alberta $5.90???? Tax savings is one thing but that's pretty bad!

It states $8.00 for BC though and I don't know anyone hiring for even the most basic of jobs for less than $10.00/hr (maybe part time retail store student jobs pay $9.50/hr) but even most gas stations here pay more thn $10/hr.

Hey BC's right up there with Nanavut and the NWT! (without the sub zero weather for 9 months a year!)

by dafe2 Dec 21, 2004

"These one time nobody's all of a sudden jumped in as miltitask IT staff for many new startups during the dot com boom. I think they have mainly receded back to the basement and have become the disgrunted virus writers and hackers of the underworld now"

Except you give them too much credit, there just sript kids that continue to insist that a server is .................never mind....

:-)

by jdmercha Dec 22, 2004

I assume you are speaking Canadian Dollars? Where I live $10US is considered a living wage. Meaning a single person making $10/hr can afford a car, a mortgage, food and utilities. (Mainly because housing is dirt cheap.)

by oz_media Dec 22, 2004

Then again, your pay in UK Pounds is a mere pittance, did you have a point?

$10 hr US is $12.00hr Canadian.

$10 hr US is $0.52 GBP

This is because every country's economy being different.

$12/hr in Canada WILL buy you a house, car etc. in some parts of Canada, not in Vancouver though.

Then again we pay some of the highest taxation rates around, we also live in one of the most desired destinations on the planet (as listed in several annual reports of the world's best cities to live in).

Again though, were you trying to say something or make a point other than the dollar value in the US is different than in other countries?

by lumbergh77 Dec 21, 2004

Thanks guys for all your input. It hasn't made my decision much easier though. One guy mentioned that I should think of what I should be doing in 5 years and then go backwards. What I would like to do is run my own business. I'd like to go to my current employer one day and ask him to fire me as an employee and then re-hire me as a consultant, and then find other companies to take on as clients. If you're in business for yourself and work with small businesses (who've probably never heard of Comptia), are you at a disadvantage because you don't have certs?

I was thinking of going after the MCSA and MCDBA. That would take at least 600 hours if I estimate 100 hours per test. That would take me almost a year. I wonder if it wouldn't be better to spend those 600 hours on side jobs and earn some extra dough than spending all that time pursuing certs that may or may not help future job prospects.

by jdmercha Dec 22, 2004

The bottom line is, getting certs will not hurt you. It's just that it may be a waste of time if you never use them. Certs may be more valuable if you want to start your own business. Then you have something to sell to the non-IT people.

But it's still a crap shoot. What you really need to have is what the person your selling to wants. And thats as varied as your options.

As for me, I've worked with experienced people, certified people and educated people. When I hire people I look at education first, experience second and certs last.

Your kidding right? You currently hold a University Degree? Or does that BS stand for something else?

The reason no one has heard of COMPTIA is because it's dead. The only people feeding off of this market are the guys who think building computers is an art. Bottom feeders.
A kid with an 8th grade education can put a PC together & get this CERT in the same 4 hours.

Common! I'd be willing to bet if you asked any MCSE or MCSA out there (a real one) why they got certified, not ONE would tell you it was to advance their career. It was simply to learn more about Microsoft technologies and their implementations. Personal growth. That's it.

Some of the marketing material out there looks like it was written by the same guy that did the "Charles Atlas body building advertisement" that used to be in the magazines. Get an MCSE! DOUBLE YOUR INCOME! Forget it, not gonna happen!

I'm sorry but, Christ, you have so much more to offer..........
A University Degree & COMPTIA. What a waste, YOU should be so much bigger than that. Unless of course....

by lumbergh77 Dec 23, 2004

...with my skillset, it would be a step back to go after a useless Comptia cert. The only reason I considered it is that I deal with a lot of PC hardware/software issues at work. But what good does it do to memorizing IRQ's or every component inside of a laser printer?

My BIGGEST weaknesses are marketing, selling the skills that I have. I'm way too honest for my own good. If I don't know something, I'll admit it. I'll own up to my mistakes and don't play the political games like certain others do to make themselves look better. There are guys who know a lot less than I do making more money. I have yet to learn the fine art of BS (in this case, the first letter stands for bull). What's the best way to learn how to market yourself and develop the outgoing personality that gives you an edge in today's business world? Don't tell me you're born with it. Seems to me that developing marketing skills and knowing how to sell yourself would be more valuable than any cert.

I thought about going after a degree in business and/or psychology while I'm still young and have the opportunity. It would probably be a better investment in the long run than certs. How many people out there understand how technology AND people work? I'm leary about the MBA because I have no desire to get involved in the corporate politics that it takes to move up an organization. That's not for me. I'm more of an entrepreneur type.

Still pondering but you guys gave me some things to think about. Thank you very much for your input.

just make sure you make the cheque payable to Oz Media.

just make sure you make the cheque payable to Oz Media.

Don't like it unless everyone agrees with you or something?

Are you therefore the only one entitled to or qualified to have an opinion or else you get pissy about it?

Gee no wonder why someone would need so many certs to get gainful employment. Personality works in most cases.

The reason MOST people can't find work is that they don't know HOW to find work. Paperwork doesn't create employment.

You see, TechVibes Vancouver is a local group of IT peers. Therefore the purpose is to have members become part of that network and through these gatherings, they can share ideas and opportunities as well as seek relationships with each others companies for the betterment of their own. This is called networking (without the server and the dozen or so MCSE's).

Other avenues are the TELEPHONE BOOK AND COLD CALLING. It's not brain surgery, just undesireable but you know what, it works! I have taught a job club that helped people get career starts,our success rate was over 98% with EVERY group within two to three weeks. You cannot tell me for a second that there is no work because it isn't advertised. The percentage of jobs available compared to the number advertised is staggering. Most companies don't need to advertise, because people have already contacted them and shown interest in working with them by showing how their individual skillset WILL benefit the company. Are YOU on those lists?

Waiting for an advertised position is the saddest excuse for not working I have ever heard and yet it is VERY common. Most say they can't get past secretaries, HR etc. But if you keep working at it you WILL find work, of YOUR choosing and not what's available at that time.

To say there's no work in IT is a farce in itself, to say that IT jobs are few and far between is hysterical. To say that people should offer you a job by throwing it iunder your nose is just sad though.

That list of decent career opporunities was just a scratch on the surface of their website, where you say there is no work available.

Perhaps if you told your friends in the TechVibes chat room to stop complaining and use the rest of the site resources maybe they wouldn't be complaining about it and be doing something about it instead.

I have NO sympathy for people who are skilled and able bodied who say they can't find work, it's complete crap and a waste of everyone's time to listen to. Loser attitudes end up resulting in....well, losing.

by apotheon Dec 21, 2004

Jeebus Cries, man. You make bank. Do you have any interest in sending any of that work my way?

I recently lost those two contracts to oursroucing. Right now looking for a new permanent client for remote admin from home again or a REALLY lucrative offer to move.

I still get a regular flow of cars, when I make myself available to work, I have a pretty well setup garage plus a 3 bay garage I built with a guy a few years back on the mainland(well 4 but my 'project' is holding one bay up).

I also get a decent, well fair, residual income every months or so from music sales in Europe and the US.

I am not saying I am some millionaire, tycoon by ANY means, in fact FAR from it and like everyone else on the planet I am just paying the bills and making a go of it as best I can.
I guess my point is, people think that when IT work isn't available, the world ends and the sky falls in until the president fixes the market or the manufacturers stop moving to Asia or whatever pathetic excuse they choose, like NO certs, etc.

Any able bodied person on Earth with even half a brain can generate income. When I was younger, there WERE no IT jobs, not in the mainstream society anyway. People learned trades or just worked at whatever they could to get on with life.

I am sick of SO many IT people whining about the industry and how it is failing them and certs are the way to go, then people with certs say how the industry has lt them down, they have a cert and can't find work and then it's the college degree in computer science and so on and so on.

Why can't people just learn how to WORK and FIND work?

I don't see what the big headwrecker is, it's not a game of Mastermind it's just working. LOL!

Specialist smeshialist, everyone can lose a job and just guess who bitches loudest at society when it falls apart? The specialist, while the J.O.A.T goes back to some other job(s). !LOL :D

If the company I work for needed me to be trained in that area, I would do it, but I am not going to waste my time on a bunch of certs that I don't need because they are not marketbale. Every job I have been at looked at two things, 1) People skill, having great customer service skills and being a good fit for the company and 2) Technical experience and willing to learn. Those are what got me my posistions, and as of right now, some of my projects aren't even in IT. I work for a manufacturing facility that is constantly looking at ways to improve and i sit on weekly meeting for process improvement. Sometimes I am able to bring technology to the table to help, sometimes not. But I also learn more and more about the companies processes then just being isolated in IT. I can take those experiences with me foreover.

by choppit Dec 22, 2004

I totally agree. What many specialist fail (or refuse) to see is the bigger picture. IT is a support function and exists (like every other function) to maintain a healthy bottom line.

Process improvement is also a key part of my job and I'm constantly finding areas where previously employed 'specialists' failed to understand the bigger picture and 'handicapped' the business as a result.

yes, there are jobs available, and depending on where you live, there might be many applying for the same posistion. You have to get to the employer first. Talk to friends, family, find out about needs they might know of. I know if I don't have a job or find a job in IT, I can find another one with the same pay because I believe I can be a fit anywhere and having the drive to expand and learn. The small minded people that think the employers are just going to come and a calling because they rattled on the resume about how many certs they have and are expecting to make 6 figures are dreaming.

by jdmercha Dec 22, 2004

I guess it's all relative.

Looking at Techvibes and Monster, Vacouver has a lot fewer job opeings than a lot of US cities, such as Atlanta, Washington DC, Miami, Ft Lauderdale and Tampa. And the IT jobs market is considered depressed in all those locations, except DC.

by oz_media Dec 22, 2004

Hope you can tie knots then, may as well just throw in the towel and tie a noose.

If OTHER people have no job finding skills then I am BOUND to remain unemployed too.

Now Monster AND TechVibes are online job portals. I have always stayed fast to the fact that online job postings equate to a miniscule portion of available positions.

It's not too much better than a newspaper which has an emploment success rate of less than 2%. If you restrict yourself to advertised positions you will find yourself unemployed for long periods of time.

Most jobs aren't advertised, they are mined.
I think another reason I have no sympathy for people who can't find work is that I have trained and managed salesmen. They ALWAYS have an excuse for not closing deals on a bad month. Funnily enoughthough, the other sales reps wil be closing deals left right and center while one is complaining that nobody is around, nobody is making changes this time of year, everytbody wants to buy a cheaper product etc.

If you can't SELL your skills and network properly, you will be SOL.

As for jobpostings, BC/Vancouver has a great employtment rate and I know VERY few unemployed people, those that are will usually be by choice.
MOST jobs aren't advertised anyway, to predict a market based on web based job offerings is a pathetic excercise at best.

If it is easy to find a decent job here and you say there are even MORE opportunities in the US, of course based on your advanced market research techniques, then how can people in the US POSSIBLY complain about jobs? Nobody here is.

by apotheon Dec 22, 2004

You should write a howto on "employment mining". Seriously. I'd read it.

I want to see what wisdom you have to impart. No matter what any of us know, we can always stand to learn more, and I suspect I'd learn something from you.

I'll host it on one of my websites, if you like, and advertise it a little bit, if it turns out well.

Well said. Sales skill are the probably THE skillset one should learn.

I like what you said about mining:"Most jobs aren't advertised, they are mined."

I read Apotheons post and agree, you should work something out & share the techniques. It's hard to believe, but people still equate sales with polyester and a bad rug. It's really just presentation, image & frienship after all.

by apotheon Dec 22, 2004

Trust me: If I could just plug the Cat-5 UTP cable into the base of my skull, I would already . . .

Err, I guess that's not what you meant. Heh.

Yes, I agree, social networking is key to getting the best jobs. Unfortunately, social networking isn't something you can just go out and do any time you like. It takes luck breaking your way. In order to meet the right people, you generally have to already know many of the "right people".

Old Boys' Club indeed.

It's not going to happen overnight. If it did, everyone would have a job. I am saying that is what has worke for me. And timing has had a lot to do with it. In my past experience my career, it was someone I knew that knew of a job opening and dropped my name to the people in charge of hiring.

by oz_media Dec 22, 2004

IN the mid 90's I was a facility manager in the middle of the downtown business district. The pub in the building was frequented by Vancouver's Old Boys club. Being a dart player I had no problem buiding a very tight network of much older and far more expeerienced and successful friends. It has been the most important 'network' I have ever built, in fact responsible for most of my opportunities and successes since then.

A GOOD network, to emphasize my ealier comments, is imperative to moving forward and getting those niche positions that 'the specialists', for some unexpected reason, don't get.

Again it all boils down to social skills and networking based on your social skills.

by sailor_12801 Dec 23, 2004

Are you planning on entering the job market? If so know this. I was out of work for 15 months. When I was hired I was told I was hired on the basis of personality!! BUT if you want to get past personnel and screeners (especially in a tight market) you must meet the specs on paper. I got in the door several times based on my MCSE...nothing else.once you're past them skill etc takeover. No MCSE??? personnel files your resume no matter what it says. BTW almost 90% of the postings I scanned wanted some sort of certification. Do your own research and decide just look at the job postings

No matter what the AD says, if you submit your resume and personal ino to these people you will always have problems getting in the door.

I prefer the reverse application scenario, I have been very successful in sales due to my ability to NOT deal with such people and ONY deal with the owner, president CEO etc. MOST people in these positions have no idea that the HR staff is taking the easy way out when hiring and just doing a review of certs to find a candidate. More often than not, the 'upper management' are the ones who will hire based on experience and 'feel/fit/personality, that's how they work and succeed themselves, most are former salesmen and respect that approach, HR does not.

What you need to do is PHONE the CEO (or person in charge) directly. Can't be done? Yes it can, and I can prove you wrong any day on that one, it's easy and I've done it for years in sales positions, it just takes a bit of practice to get names and get past gatekeepers.

We had a challenge here once to see who could get past Jim Pattison's gatekeeper (and she's GOOD!) and get a live call with Mr. Pattison himself, 7 out of 12 in the class got through within one week.

After you have spewed your 'pitch' at the right person, you can often get a direct interview without HR's interference. If not, you get the CEO to 'transfer' your call directly to the HR department. Them getting an applicant passed directly from the boss will always get you noticed and considered despite what your paperwork says.

Working top down in an organization is MUCH MUCH easier than workig from the bottom up. You always get seen,you always get considered and you ALWAYS get a live interview where you can further sell yourself if you pt=itch the right person.

Finding work can be harder than the job itself, it takes a lot of phone work, company research (to work on your 'pitch'), and a thick skin. Or in a nustshell, finding work is a sales job. Become a good salesman and you can sell yourself anywhere.

In regards to your second paragraph & selling -that's just a LEARNED skill. The guys that were "born with it" continue to wear pollyester and bad haircuts....or rugs.

My advice would be to see your "customer" as "people" FIRST.

The first "secret" of Professional selling is simply to make a friend, the technical term these days is "relationship management."
The second "secret" is integrity which involves admitting you don't know things when you don't and owning up to mistakes when you make them - Sounds like you have it under control to me.:-)

is quit any and all jobs, work etc and just start posting on TR all day long - like the super-busy OzMedia does.

and this is going to give insight into my slanted posts.

we see MBA/management types using IT to make themselves and their departments more powerful. so they are always trying to find ways to get IT into their portfoio - BUT they are selective about which work they do want and which ones they don't.

genereally, they only want the fancy and visible IT areas (Web, EPR, data mining) but they don't want the boring stuff (network management, inventory, backups, recycling). good if you are MBA management type, not good if you are IT.

quite franky, they are not the least bit interested in their value to the company or their contribution. they just take the IT parts they want, mess them up royally , then leave before the true results of what they did come in.

they use it to get a better paying gig - and leave everything they messed up behind for someone else to clean up.

ain't IT grand.

And what difference does that make to us exactly?

"genereally, they only want the fancy and visible IT areas (Web, EPR, data mining) but they don't want the boring stuff (network management, inventory, backups, recycling). good if you are MBA management type, not good if you are IT."

Who cares....we're just there as enablers & service providers. Frankly I don't really give a crap about their (personal)goals, balance sheets, P&L statements or accruals, just show me the money (budget) and tell me what SERVICE level you need from me (IT). Then I'll let you know what WE can do to help whatever. Our goal is to do whatever it takes to meet or exceed SLA's.

"they use it to get a better paying gig - and leave everything they messed up behind for someone else to clean up.

ain't IT grand"

Sure is, they can mess it up all they want to. I run server rooms NOT businesses. Put simply, they're the customer & I thank them everytime the checks clear.

So:

Ain't LIFE grand.

you do realize that you are "enabling" yourself out of a job, right.

if you let them take away little bits here and there, of what has traditionally always been IT business, they are only going to take the parts that matter the most and leave you with the left overs. thats is no way to run things.

you know damn right that if the tables were tuned and you went in and started taking little bits and pieces of what have always been "their" territory, all hell would break loose.

if you ever got your sigma six black belt - you would increase your income ten fold and you would not joke so much.

Seeing as you seem to be obsessed with my career and work life, perhaps your ignorance would be better suited if directed toward myself instead of a third party in a pathetic attempt to enforce your thoughts.

First of all you tried to tell me I didn't have any experience or know what I was talking about.

I proved thet I do have experience and know exectly what I am talking about as we are merely discussing our own experiences here.

Then you tried to insist that if someone works in IT, they have no idea because the people who DO the work aren't the ones making the money.

I explained that I had sat on both sides of that fence and don't need to work full time in order to achieve my goals.

NOW you are saying because I have so much free time there's no way can achieve successes.

Man you need to think and actually remain consistent and not contradict your own comments if you want to retain credibility.

You are definitely not the first person who gets all pissy when they find out some people earn a good living without working 24/7, and your certainly won't be the last.

Apparently the concept of successful self employment is well above your own comprehension level, although I am definitely not alone in that respect.
MOST people where I live do their own thing very successfully, we don't have to any 'corporate drone' companies here.
MOST local business here are entrepeneural ventures, the tallest building in Port Hardy is two floors (the High School), a much different world than you are used to I am sure.
This town is made of self employed, successful business ventures. Maye you should get out a bit and see that the rest of the world isn't so dependant on someone else handing them opportunities based on their certifications.

Now if YOU find it so hard to believe that someone can make something of themselves BY themselves, that in itself explains exactly WHY you see it that way. The concept is just too much to grasp for some who have always worked for somebody else and been paid what they are told they will be paid. TIP: Writing your own paycheque is far more lucrative.

As far as work, I work my ass off at MANY different things, that's what you do to succeed in life.
As far as IT, my job until recently has been monitoring networks and VoIP systems from home based PBX's and either visiting site or calling in IT staff to do it as needed. HOW and WHY is this such a hard concept for you to get your head around?

Your insinuation is that people with specialty
degrees will always earn more than those without. I proved you wrong and you're a little upset about it. Now whether this is because I have shattered your dreams, proven that drone work is not the only path to success or whatever, I don't care.

Your insinuation that you have it all right and everyone in disagreement is delusional, is very tiring.

You have proven that you have a very narrow minded approach to the industry and only see one path to success, this is your loss not mine, get over it or do something about it for yourself other than insisting it can't be done.

Don't elaborate on the fact that you see no future by insisting on your single minded approach to success, I still have a future and goals, sorry if you have shut those doors on yourself and no longer see a future without getting a piece of paper so that someone will OFFER you more money to work for THEM.

I am shocked to see how many people feel this is an unfathomable concept. It's not brain surgery, you either have personality or you don't.

Maybe some people just get disgruntled when in a work rut and see no future because the industry blinds them with inacceptance.

One thing I have always seen as a personal advantage when seeking IT work is that MANY IT staff have grown up living a 'nerds' life. In order to learn what they have about computers(generally FAR more than I have myself) they have lead a more isolated life without the social skills needed to succeed with such knowledge.

I grew up in sales, there were no computer jobs, and as a result had honed my sales and 'digging' skills. When it comes to seekign employment, it is just another sales job to me. Mine the prospect, cold call the prospect and close the prospect.

Do I bat 4 for 4? Of course not, you get told to FO, hung up on etc. You also find work and success though.

I have a fraction of the skills that most of the peers here have with repect to computing. I can't believe how many people have a hard time finding work with so much knowledge and experience though.

The only explanation, is it's not the market, it's not the paperwork or formal education, it's not the specialty/niche positions, it's not the government's fault for outsourcing, it's nobody's fault but your own inabiity to market yourself and your value to others.

If more IT wannabes actually had some social skills,people skill or sales skills, they wouldn't be complaining and doubting a very lucrative and still fast growing industry.

Oh well, to each his own.

Actually, if you have a look at the "Top 100 Overall" list of people most active in TechRepublic, you'll see that I already post more often than Oz does. That might be part of the reason he makes more money than I do.

I wouldn't sell yourself so short in this case.

There IS one thing that guy has proven true,

"If you think you can't succeed, you will always be right."

It's true, though, to judge by some posts we've made at TR: You make more money than I do, on average. I haven't given up on myself, of course, and I'm managing to get by anyway.

Regardless, I was mostly just making a joke. I do post here more than you, and I do (seem to?) make less money than you. C'est la vie.

seriously, you guys been lisenting to Tony Robbins' way too much. none of it is true man!.

the world is a mean, cold, greedy & back stabbing place. all jobs, promotions and money it gotten by who you know. and if aren't in the "in", you are pretty much screwed like everyone else.

Oz, you know damn right, that if you were busy making tons of cash, you would not be wasting your time on TR. same goes for me, if i could get as many clients as I wish I had, i would be long gone from here and too busy making money.

why the B.S.?

YOu are so assumptive in your posts, you think that everyone thinks and feels just like you do, that everyone se the same ISSUES with the world that you do and now you are contradicting yourself.

First you assert that specialists earn more money, then you claim to have an idea of how I think, what I want and what I would do. Then you back those comments by asserting that it's not what you know but who you know!?

[i]" am a jack of all trades. and i watch specialists get paid 10x what i get paid and they don't have to know 1/10th of the broad knowledge I have to know to keep up with my job performance requirements."[/i]

[i]specialists in LotusNotes, Peoplesoft, SAP, IXOS, Cognos -- you name it. all the BI app specialists will out salary you any day of the week with their eyes closed.

so why don't you quit selling CompTIA advertizing and get yourself a *real* job in the *real* IT world.[/i]

[i]Oz, sorry but you are out to lunch on that one. You haven't really worked in IT - have you?

If you did, you would have noticed that most of the money is being made by the people *not* doing the IT work. The *actual* IT work is being done by people who are getting paid a miserable salary.[/i]

And now finally backpeddling,

[i]"all jobs, promotions and money it gotten by who you know. and if aren't in the "in", you are pretty much screwed like everyone else."[/i]

Priceless!!! All in the same thread.

Money, I earned more money at 17 than I do today. I COULD have stayed in Vancouver and played the corporate GAME, I also had offers to move East and play the coporate game. I CHOSE not to.

I COULD go out and work hard drumming up new clients, I CHOOSE not to as I make a comfortable living doing whatever I choose to each day, whether fixing a car, consulting and providing IT support or working on band promotions to increase sales.

I am NOT American, I don't think the future lays in my wallet, I much prefer the tranquility and quite life of just living where I do and living humbly.

I HAVE done the coporate joke, I have played the ladder game, I have had greater opportunities that I turn down. I believe in doing what I am happiest doing each day, not what I have to do to earn more money. YOu can make JUST as much and more by just having mutiple talents and doing a bit of everything.

Now to correct your latest statement, I was the one saying that it isn't what you know but WHO you know or HOW you sell yourself to the right people.

YOU on the other hand instisted that certified specialists will always make more money and have more opportunity than a jack of all trades, which is complete BS.

I have beaten out more than my fair share of far more qualified candidates for positions because I network and market myself, and as a result I have built a great pool of people that are , as you say, 'IN'.

This was not a result of going to school though, it was a result of performance, trust and integrity.

P.S. Tony Robbins is a great example of how you can't see what you are talking about.

First of all, you are intent on proving that certifications create success. To enforce this point, you tell people with a positive attitude that they have been watching too much Tony Robbins.

This doesn't make sense, are you stryin gto say that he is NOT successful and that having a positive attitude is NOT a way to success by pointing out HIS failure to do so?

There's one thing about people like yourself that always rings true though. If you think that you won't succeed, you are ALWAYS correct. It is because of peple that, like yourself, have GIVEN UP that the rest of us are able to succeed.

I can prove a naysayer wrong everytime, but a naysayer can always prove himself correct too.

#1 - i clain IT specialists make more money. i never said it had anything to do with "certifications". when i refer to specialists, i refer to job duties. the guy does not go around making anything that is computer related work. the guy just does one thing. it's usually on a speciality application.

#2 - Tony Robbins makes money by selling poor people who have no options and no money to begin with a "product". i find that wrong. but thats just me.

Who is "the other guy"?

By the way, letting your "arguments" devolve into "You're lying! You have to be, just because you disagree!" isn't helping make your position look much better. Why are you taking all this so personally?

i never said you are lying.

But I am convinced that Oz smokes dope while he types. wheather its for medical reasons or recreation, that I am not sure of yet.

i never said you are lying.

But I am convinced that Oz smokes dope while he types. wheather its for medical reasons or recreation, that I am not sure of yet.

It is natural for peopleto dfend thier ideals. When someone has a certain mindset you cannot expect to change it, some can accept it some just get defensive.

I think I understand the motivation behind the posts I just don't agree with the philosophy myself though.

Oh well, to each his own.

Simply stated my job, as I see it, is to do my best. To be crude - Screw the rest of the BS that goes with the "ladder." (I still have issues with 1.3 though) :-)

The Sigma Code Of Ethics reads in part:

1.1 Will do whatever I can to promote the reliability and safety of all products that come within my jurisdiction.
1.3 Will be dignified and modest in explaining my work and merit.
2.1 Will act in professional matters as a faithful agent or trustee for each employer or client.
2.2 Will inform each client or employer of any business connections, interests, or affiliations that might influence my judgment or impair the equitable character of my services.
2.3 Will indicate to my employer or client the adverse consequences to be expected if my professional judgment is overruled.

To paraphrase (Sort of) another Peer (here) - I plan on working myself out of a job.

At that point, I'll take some of my own advice and move on to another "trade".

hhhaaayaaa hhhoooey hhhhoooyaaaa never works.

Try this at the next meeting:

Put a "bean" in your hand.....then say the words:
If you can take this (Insert jelly bean here) from my hand.....

Close your fist reeeeaaal sloooow though. Accounting types aren't the quickest bunch. You want to ensure succes right?

I think I've been paraphrased!

You

are

correct

of course...........he he

Sure I get a decent income,I also pay more in taxes than most people would DREAM. Standard income or federal ta is one thing, compared to taxes on CD sales income outside the country it is laughable.

If I get say $8,000.00 in a quarter from one distributor, depending whether in US dollars or UK pounds, WELL over 40% is tax, no kidding, it's insane! The more they sell the more I pay. THat's why I have an account in the UK still, but with th edecline of the US dollar you really take a kicking from there.

Much of the work I do on cars is on a barter system with locals, you scratch my back and I scratch yours. This isn't money but it reduces the daily cost of living. Sure I get some more involved work and it pays very well, especially out calls or no-starts, but it isn't something that would leave anyone envious, I have to physically work hard at 5AM sometimes to get people to work.

In I.T. I lucked out on a contract, they wanted to outsource as company operational changes were in thier future, I lost about $74,000.00/yr off two contracts though. There was a buyout of the contract as it was 3 months early so I managed to get set up for a while but it still means I have to work harder somewhere else.

So yes the money comes in, it goes out just as fast and I don't just have ONE person cutting me a biweekly salary to rely on. Pros and cons but the most importanat and cherished part of all is freedom. I can sleep in until 11 if I have a late night, I also don't earn money that way though.

I stil havent wanted stability enough to go back to work yet but I have had somelucrative offers on the mainland, meaning moving back to the city, but haven't taken anything yet. Think I'll take some time off and enjoy the holiday, new year, maybe my next birthday...welll then it's prime camping season, golf, concert season, the list goes on, maybe I'll just enjoy it for now.

Maybe I'll look into charters or sightseeing next summer, everyone else here lives on it! Only time will tell I suppose, I don't really care at this point though.

I just didn't think the poster you were talking to warranted such a humble post from you. It's his loss if he's given up, not ours. HO HO HO

I never suggested that you said I was lying. You do seem to be calling Oz a liar an awful lot, though.

I'm still not sure who you meant by "the other guy", though I'm beginning to get the feeling it might have been me.

by secure_lockdown9 Dec 24, 2004

na, i just think Oz is peddling some sort of scam onto unsuspecting people trying to get into IT.

you got to wonder about a guy who claims technical know how - yet never posts anything on the technical forums.

We had another peer just like you a while back who made all his negative comments about people in the same third party fashion with the same ridiculous assumptions and conclusions based on very little knowledge. In other words, nothing new.

I never post anything in Technical forums, yet I have accumulated over 42,000 points from helping users in Technical Q&A compared to your 150 points. Now that is called a fact based on proven statistics.

I would say perhaps the same comments should be directed toward yourself, yet I am not petty enough to make something from a non-issue.

As with ALL of your posts here, and I have said it time and time again, MAKE SOME SENSE. Even just a LITTLE bit, you have some interesting veiws then shoot them to hell by adding that you have no idea what you are talking about and are just shooting your mouth off. THINK and MAKE SENSE you will gain some credibility in your comments.

by dafe2 Dec 24, 2004

Both my parents where into the Big Iron when was growing up. I ended on the sales end of technology in the early 80's. My mentor never "sold" a damn thing. His approach was just go out, knock on every door that didn't have a man or a woman on it & meet people. That guy made budget 90% of the time & most important, had friends all over the place. It was the "customer" doing the closing.

For myself, that's mostly the "fun" part of IT. It still blows me away that people don't get it.
Remember, a "tech" meets everyone from the janitor to the CEO. If he showed some interest in the "person" while fixing that GPF or whatever, the rest of us would be out of work.

So, I was a tech for a few years. One of the best too. My problem was that allthough I closed all of my tickets the description of work usually went something like this:

Sally, the secretary, has some problems with the kids.

Bob, the CEO is taking Barb to the movies.

Bill, the comproller is pissed with Bob.

The, first business I owned was started in 1993 during the "recession" the day I got laid off.

The very next day with about 5 bucks in the bank I called a "friend". I told him I was going out on my own & would he call me if he needed a quote. He gave me a 10k order. That was the easy part, I spent the next day lining up suppliers & trying to figure out how the hell I was going to get paid, do the invoicing and find the money to buy the stuff he wanted. All of this to do & no business name anywhere on the radar screen yet.

After the recession I moved onto consulting...& still appreciate a privileged living.

My point, if you've got good people skills & selling skills you'll never be unemployed for too long. It's the first thing I look for in my guys - "Hunger" & people skills, technical skills are very important too....but they need to be articulated as well. As you say, there's still a lot of opportunity out there, it just takes a different breed of cat to seize it.

Making a profit regardless.

It seems people and customers ae definitely secondary when it comes to making money nowdays.

NO you never said certified people at all and I did misquote you. You did infer that specialists will be more successful though. NOw you show me a computer SPECIALIST that works for a high salary on ONE key task that ISN'T certified. Specialists hit specialty positions because they are specifically trained for them and simply have no interest or in many cases can not do anything else. I see this as a closed door, not an opportunity, regardless of income.

Tony RObbins? Sure he makes more momney of telling other people how to become rich, that's called motivational speaking and with todays society it makes the speaker seem like some form of messiah. Watching the hoards that follow Tony and Tom Vu (remember him, with all the beautiful women because everyone else was a LOSER? :) ) makes me think that people in biblical times would have followed ANY good speaker with a vision and dreams. Watching how people cling to hope really makes it harder and harder to believe that Jesus was anyone other than a visionary with a good public speaking ability to gather hoards of followers. Couple that with multiple translations of biblical scriptures where SOME people say the translation is 'walked BESIDE water and not ON water" makes it all seem very human afterall.

Sorry for the segue....

Tony RObbins doesn't sell anything to people without hope. HE sells a very truthful principal that ALMOST anyone can take advantage of, if they have the drive, motivation and ability to put it together and follow through.

Just like Amway, I know MANY people who have made a small fortune, several multi millionaires from Amway. I made a few grand a month near the end of my teens selling their products commercially, but never had the interest in going further with it, but it is possible. Poeple say it USED to be possible but can't be done now etc. etc. BS, you can make it if you WANT to.

Tony Robbins doesn't LIE per se, he just fills people with grandiose dreams that many have NO HOPE of ever reaching as the are simply THE WRONG PEOPLE. I personally can't stand the guy, he's worse than the cheesiest used car salesman but some think that's appealing I suppose.

Happy Holidays to you and yours.