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Windows vs Linux - Business

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Scenario - Time, money, some experience, ability to hire more experience if necessary, can get support or pay for it, more expensive/branded components, multiple servers like web, application, file, backup, email, etc, network (say maybe 100+ users), multiple network and local printers, remote locations.

Please address all aspects...AD like directory, file and print sharing, web and email, security, backup, end user support, database, etc.

Let's hear your thoughts.

111 replies

by deadly ernest

I have been doing IT tech work at different levels since 1985, and went full time pro about 8 year ago. Much of the PC work has been MS Windows since it came out and use both Windows and Linux at home.

When I was first exposed to Linux, Red Hat 6, about 8 year ago it was as easier to load and use than DOS 6 and Windows 3.1, and tech support needs were at the same level as Win 3.1. In recent years I have had a lot more exposure to Linux as a server operating system and have found it to be far superior to Windows in server and gateway work. Linux for end user and desktop had lagged behind but has caught up now.

Yes there are many Linux versions and you need to examine what you want and choose the one best suited to your needs - kind of like a few years back with Windows XP Home - XP Pro - 2k Server - 2k Advanced Server - CE etc. You could use 2k Adv server for a desktop but it is not the best option and you could use XP Home for a file server but it is not the best option - same applies with the Linux varieties; although most Linux versions are closer to being universal than the Windows systems.

With MS Win Vista due out and the high end tech specs it appears to need I am seeing more and more people who do NOT want to go that way for their business software as they see that level of hardware and media support excessive for the business environment. Estimated cost of a Vista capable machine in Aust is expected to be several hundred dollars more than an equivalent Linux capable machine, add in the MS software and you start to look at a cost difference of a A$2K to A$3k per unit on the desk; an important point for small business. The problems come in regarding third party software running in Linux, which WINE and Crossover now resolve for most applications.

With this in mind I started looking at some of the latest Linux versions in light of non-tech end user ease of use. To that end I have found that Fedora Core 4 is easier to install than XP Pro and with WINE runs all the office applications I have and use. For gaming I just subscribe to Cedega and run the Windows based games within that - all I have tried work well (many better than in Windows).

Linux has a better record regarding the fixing of vulnerabilities than does Windows, and there are less holes in its security to begin with. It is not a perfect operating system but it is technically better and better coded than Windows.

IMHO Windows vs Linux is very much a personal choice or cost choice not a technical decision for the majority of people.

by mmullinix1

In your one response you answered all the questions I had regarding my gaming, etc when I make the switch to Linux. Thank you so much. It may not be perfect, but I really want to try Linux.

by the ref

I agree with your comments that it is a personal choice - I prefer the term "Religious debate". This does not mean it has anything to do with God, but that people have deeply rooted beliefs that will not be swayed by the opinion of others.

I do not believe that Linux has a better record of fixing vulnerabilities than Windows, just that Windows gets more visibility of the flaws - mainly due to the virus writers attacking it and reports in the media. I recently threw out an article that said that the time to fix a known security flaw in Windows was less than the time taken for Linux ? and that Linux suffers more successful attacks as a server.

There are a multitude of articles written that indicate that XXX is a better/ more stable/ easier / more secure OS than its rivals. Most people have an opinion on this subject and nearly all are biased.

The bottom line is that both are valid OS choices and that different people have different requirements that may be better suited by one OS over another.

Unfortunately I don?t believe it is possible to have a reasonable debate on this subject without peoples inherent biases coming out and wasting everyone?s time.

by apotheon

Depending on how you report them, statistics can be made to say anything. All it takes is some careful omission of facts that don't support your conclusions, generally.

I have no way to verify average patch times for Linux and Windows in a truly objective and absolute fashion. I have seen a report that Windows patch times average less than Linux patch times, though. This report was prepared by a vendor of Windows-based security software, which raises the specter of a conflict of interest, of course. The statistical data also included only things covered by Windows Update for the Windows side of the equation, though, and included patch times for thousands of applications, many not included in default installs of most major distributions. In fact, many of the applications counted toward Linux patch times have Windows versions of the same software packages available. As such, it was largely an apples to oranges comparison, and easily discarded.

My personal experience leads me to believe that patch times are much, much shorter for Linux than for Windows, particularly for core components and critical vulnerabilities. The fastest-ever patch time for a Windows security flaw, for instance, was reported to be the recent WMF vulnerability, at less than ten days. The average for the Linux kernel is, as I recall, less than a week. While this doesn't include all of the core Linux operating system components, it certainly provides a very wide range of vulnerability patch response times to pick and choose the fastest turn-around in the case of the Windows patch, and it doesn't fare as well as one might have hoped. I have seen Linux security patches appear in a matter of a few hours, in some cases as few as two of them, by contrast to the Windows fastest of ten days.

I'm further skeptical of reports of Windows patch times, considering the clearly documented cases of Windows vulnerabilities taking eighteen months or more to fix, and in some cases being declared unworthy of patching entirely. I think it likely that anything that Microsoft has decided it will never patch isn't included in these statistics, because it's difficult to include "never" in an average of patch times.

Furthermore, one must wonder what is meant by "known security flaw". Since Microsoft has managed to strongarm security firms into refraining from reporting flaws to anyone but Microsoft until after a patch is released, that could simply mean that a flaw known to Microsoft that takes them eighteen months to patch will be reported as a zero-time patch because it was not known publicly. Meanwhile, Linux vulnerabilities, in the open source development communities, tend to get publicly reported immediately, and still end up patched before anyone gets around to exploiting them.

I'm highly skeptical of claims that Linux servers get successfully exploited more than Windows servers, and would require some documentation before giving them any credence. I've never seen any such reports, though I have seen some that indicate they are in fact attacked more often, regardless of success rate. Even if they are "successfully" exploited more often in terms of absolute numbers, however, it's possible that this is merely a statistical artifact of the greater number of Linux servers in certain implementations than Windows servers, where a lower percentage of successful attacks might involve such a huge number of servers that the absolute number of successful attacks might be higher. Even then, however, I'd be skeptical without some solid evidence, based simply on my knowledge of OS architecture and security practices. Another possible interpretation might involve measuring only certain types of security compromises.

by apotheon

I started working for a corporation in August as its IT resource manager and network administrator.

This company has a network made up of about 85% Linux systems and 15% Windows systems. Yes, that's an odd ratio for corporations in general, but keep in mind it's a corporation mostly made up of algorithm and software developers.

Despite the significantly greater number of Linux systems than Windows systems, the typical breakdown of my work time there time is roughly as follows:

30% "social" nonsense: dealing with software vendors, upper management, meetings, et cetera

50% Windows technical issues

20% Linux technical issues

Because of the nature of the types of issues I had to deal with in each case, my stress level breakdown is as follows:

50% "social" nonsense

45% Windows support

5% Linux support

As for TCO, not counting support time, the breakdown between Linux and Windows has roughly been (without exact numbers available):

70% Windows

30% Linux

If you want to figure out which is, in general, the better OS for a given task in business, take a look at the above anecdotal statistics. Which is better?

You do the math.

by dewers

What I find most humorous is that "20% of your algorithm and software developers using Linux" need tech support!

It's been over 7 years since RedHat went public and it was a matter of time before Linux evolved into the biggest threat to Mr. Softy. HAHAHAHAH

Ain't gonna happen people. Even with the real techies on board - wasting time attacking Windows - in the end - will only make Winders stonger - all the while Torvold is laughing all the way to the Carribean.

The value that Linux provides business today is a stop-gap throw away solution that fiscal conservatives are more than willing to jump on board in the short run to save a few bucks... but in the long run will not afford the TCO to implement xNIX in a comprehensive approach.

by jdclyde

exactly what kind of bigot does your post make you? Don't answer, we already know.

Nice unbiased response while even throwing in a touch of personal attack. Well done.

Yes, I can see where an affordable, stable, secure server would not carry a long term TCO, for the people that sell software and security devices maybe.

Maybe a Windows server will even scale so that a company like Google will use it for their web servers? On the other hand, maybe not.

by apotheon

Where do you get the 20% of algorithm and software developers statistic? Who said that?

Everybody needs tech support. Even the network administrator has to occasionally call a vendor's help desk. What's your point?

I find it interesting that you made two comments that are completely inapplicable, and the rest of your post was nothing but FUD. Try again. Try harder.

by charliespencer

Microsoft is acting like it feels Linux is a threat. Strange, since most distributions aren't interested in competing with MS for the corporate desktop.

I don't know why you think Linus is on his way to St. Somewhere; he's not making any money off the OS. Speaking engagements, maybe.

Linux TCO is only high on the front end, and only then if you are switching from an established OS / network system. It's quite competitive after the initial install.

by jmgarvin

TCO is an elusive creature and finding REAL TCO outside of MS FUD is diffucult at best.

Munich is doing a good job of posting what they are doing and what it costs.

As for MS hurting, yes they are. The server market it 50% *nix and 50% MS. The desktop market is shrinking for MS as more companies move to *nix thin clients.

Thanks for playing

by too old for it

With only 30% of your time spent on "social" nonsense, I fear for your future.

You need to spend MUCH more of your day developing your soft skills, er, social nonsense ... else the business side will NEVER take a liking to you.

(tongue planted firmly in cheek)

by apotheon

You're right. I suck at office politics, and I've already run into some problems because of that.

by yoan.simard

I'm working in an IT dept of an organization that count about 2500 users.

Let's talk about the users side :

First, it is actually impossible to put Linux on users PC because users, mines, have a lot of difficulties to effectively work with windows which is much more easy to operate. Secondly, the variety of users applications that only work on windows is to much bigger. Do you think we should lot time (and time is money) to try to configure wine for each apps ? I don't think so...

From the server perspective :

There is a place for both world... Forget the pricing argument in favour to Linux. When you pay supports and "enterprise certified linux license" there is no money to save with it.

When you need to manage 2500+ users accounts, you must use an integrated directory such as eDirectory (novell) or Active Directory from microsoft.. Linux offer an LDAP server but it is not as powerful as the others... So you don't have the choice for that ?

Let's talk about networks services and databases... Oracle for example is currently developping on Unix and then porting the code to windows... The management of Oracle in Linux is much powerful and the DB is a lot more scalable and stable (I experienced both) So Linux is the solution for that kind of service.

If I want to do a DNS, DHCP, FTP, WEB, Firewall (stateful), and many others, I'll go with linux which is much more flexible and configurable. And there is a chance that I use a totally free Linux version instead of a certified one for those services...

So, to resume, You'll agree with me that both OS have their place and It is not which one si the better but which one is the better to do some specific things? And Better means fast and easy to configure and operate, flexible, stable etc...

by tosser

Actually, if you have active directory you are better off using a DC for DNS and DHCP as well.

In the end it really matters what the admins skillset is. What is easy under linux for me could be a massive headache for someone else.

Since I do administer a lot of servers (nearly balanced 50% Windows 200X and linux), I find the task is as hard as the limitations of my skillset. If I have a lot to learn (say WebDAV), then the task will be difficult. If it is something I have done before then the task then the task will be easier.

by apotheon

"[i]Actually, if you have active directory you are better off using a DC for DNS and DHCP as well.[/i]"

I find this statement interesting. Please enumerate for me the reasons that it would be better to use a domain controller for DNS and DHCP in an AD network.

by pipe guy

Much of the Linux/Windows debate has to do with which one is better. Some analysts claim that IT should streamline their systems to only run on one OS..ie have only a linux shop or a windows shop. This sort of short sighted methodology does not take into account the real benefits of using the "best of breed" for the application at hand. To answer your exact question I would argue that the Novell Suse with Groupwise for email does everything you have requested and it does it better with a higher degree of security and uptime than other Linux distros or windows equivelants. The edirectory by novell is still the market leader.( they have one even for NT and windows servers) Groupwise for email with over 60 million users is now compatible with palm, blackberry and other mobile phone solutions.
The printing solutions are all now typically IP printing so its not dependent on the OS at all.
The dhcp and dns issues are all dealt with on the server platforms or firewall appliance that organizations have so whether its Suse, RedHat or Cisco or another hardware solution, it doesn't really matter. I wouldn't trust a microsoft server to keep out intruders yet.. they just can't. period. And because of their current archetecture with autoupdates and constant patching... it is foolhardy to use a windows server as a firewall. The admin costs to do so are prohibitive where other products are much simpler and better.
In my opinion, you have to pick the best product you can afford to perform the task you need to get done. This means that if the application that saves your staff hundreds of hours a month has to run on a windows server or a linux server or Unix server, its not that difficult to justify it. Windows still controlls most of the applications most people use. So we will typically always have some form of windows servers or workstations to perform some of our business functions. However, moving completely to a windows environment may not be the safest move for your firewall, dhcp and domain hosting or web hosting solutions.
Most web servers are still apache or linux based in their archetecture. Unless you absolutely require a dot.net solution for integration with your existing software, most companies don't deploy microsoft web servers. Outlook may be the default client email software but you can still use a linux pop3 or a groupwise email server and use the outlook client.
Some analysts argue that this is needlessly complicated and we should just stick with one OS and stick with the applications that only run on that OS. But often software vendors have one good program to offer customers and a host of other substandard software. In the past it was much more obvious. Lotus had the spreadsheet but a crappy word processor. Multimate had a better word processor but everyone used wordperfect. (in the dos days) Now everyone seems to use Office and some people struggle with the poor security and needlessly huge processing power required to run the software. Macros have become such a security risk that microsoft says to turn them off. I didn't want this to turn into a diatribe against microsoft. We will all require microsoft applications for many years to come. But I hope that some of you keep an open mind when you select software/hardware solutions so that you actually choose the ones that are best suited for your specific applications. Microsoft doesn't have a good email server or a best of breed firewall or antivirus. You will have to buy these from other vendors if you want the best one. Best means fastest, most secure, with less administration and more user friendly features. Best is best. Best sometimes isn't the cheapest to buy or install, but it is usually cheaper in the longer run. Just like a Nortel or Cisco switch is more expensive to buy it usually is worth it over the next 10 years. In two years it may be hard to justify but over a longer term, it may be a fraction of the cost.
I don't believe that a single source or a single OS is how we as professionals need to be thinking.
We need to broaden our exposure to new trends and ideas and get the best software on the best hardware for our employees to be the most efficient and most productive that they can be.

by pchow98

A mentor once told me a long time ago that "it isn't the technology or featuers or 'coolness' that counts, it is the marketshare that makes the business decision". I am currently a consultant and what I need to focus on is my market-ability of my skills and how much is it commanding.

In all reasonableness, Linux (which I have been using, tracking since .99 days) has grown tremendously and I am spending my own time, in addition to billable time, to be more skillful at it. MySQL and QMail/SendMail, etc have grown as well. For specific applications and appliance, Linux is a perfect fit (dedicated firewall application, border mail gateway, honeypot, tripwire and other types of IDS). The knowledge require to accomplish these is *NOT* for the faint of heart. To get a good *AND* maintain-able IDS solution going *IS* for the 'guru' class professionals that's commanding much higher billing rates then me. On the other hand, these opportunities are only for the very large enterprises and specific state and federal agencies, which there aren't that many opportunities available to me.

For the SMB, MLE, city and county agencies, Microsoft type opportunities provide one with enough billing. People (clients) are familiar with the logo and what Microsoft is all about and that makes the selling of skill much easier. Yes, I am getting myself much better at Linux (specially getting SAMBA/Winbind to work with OpenLDAP/OpenSSL, and Active Directory so that there's integration between Active Directory and OpenLDAP and other LDAP type Directories (Novell's eDirectory or iPlanet) and SAMBA/Winbind can service the Microsoft side of the world with file and print services with Kerberos certificates and ACLs) and readying for the time when the paradigm shift comes (I think it is coming).

by apotheon

In fact, that's not really Linux TCO: that's the cost of migrating systems in general. It doesn't matter which OS you're migrating things to -- Linux, MacOS X, Windows Vista -- it's always going to cost a lot up front. Some more than others. Linux is likely to be one of the cheaper options.

by rkuhn040172

There you go again.

Anytime there is a negative with Linux, you spin it. For example (referring to numerous posts of yours), instead of a Linux issue it is a migration issue or instead of a Linux issue it is a problem with manufacturers, instead of a Linux issue it is a user issue, etc etc etc.

Does Linux have any issues? Name just one...

by apotheon

Don't be a Dick.

Are you really so blindly set on finding a TCO issue with Linux that you can't open your eyes to the fact that system migrations are often expensive [b]in and of themselves[/b]?

I was being nice. The truth of the matter is that a well-managed migration to Linux is unlikely to increase costs at all, in most cases.

Yes, Linux has issues. Linux has issues like I don't like its licensing (though it's a darned sight better than Windows licensing). Many distributions of Linux take an annoyingly fast and loose approach to filesystem hierarchy standard compliance. Some distributions, in my opinion, are trying too hard to emulate Windows in a very dumbed-down manner to woo users away. There's a bar to entry, accessibility-wise, in some areas because of the fact that it's typically more difficult for someone kick-start an organic process of discovery at the command line than with a GUI (and the CLI is where real power is to be found). It has third-party vendor support issues.

It also has FUD, and people like you who think that saying a bunch of good things about it must make it bad, and the people saying good things liars. Don't be an assweasel.

by fcometa

This one seems easier than the rest. And I agree with those that say there is no one 'better' in this case. Each one has it's niche. Each one may fit a situation better than the other. There are no static, absolute rules here. The only difference is, of course, the desktops; although an average user with Linux, OpenOffice, Firefox and Evolution will in all probability do well, there is little reason to change from an already established Windows environment.

by apotheon

Are you saying there is no benefit for server use to using one OS over the other, in general, since "the only difference" is on the desktop?

Have you ever actually encountered Linux in the real world?

by fcometa

Sorry for not making myself understood.

What I was trying to say is that there is no ONE 'right' answer. In a business setting you will in all probability have both, Windows in some cases, Linux in others; you will weigh out the pros and cons and use them where they fare you best. When it comes to servers, you will be seeing a mixed environment: for example, linux on the web server, email server, file server; and windows for AD and the like.

But on the desktop side there is a different story, almost always a story of windows users too set in their ways. It's not the same to change, say, a mail server from Windows to Linux than change the users' boxes from Windows to Linux. And I mention change, because if we were starting out with a 'blank' company, I wouldn't see any big issue keeping me from putting Linux on the desktops: as I said in my post, "an average user with Linux, OpenOffice, Firefox and Evolution will in all probability do well". Hell, I've seen a user sit down in front of a Linux box, check something out on the net with Firefox, and the only thing he/she says after closing the window is how cool the wallpaper is (unfortunately, I didn't have that luck with OpenOffice... the MS Office users were REALLY caught up in a rut). The keyword here is CHANGE. In an already running business, most of the time you will find Windows in front of the end users. A project to change to Linux would need more selling than the same for one or more servers.

I hope this clears things up for you.

by deadly ernest

and you find out that it only comes with Windows Vista and you need a high end machine for the desktop and your existing software applications do not perform properly on Vista as it is Different to the Win Xp or Win 2K Pro you are switching from. Have to learn a whole new set and pay out many thousands more than for the equivalent set up for Linux.

by jdclyde

MS soldiers WANT to keep following this move deeper and deeper into the windows celler.

When something goes wrong, they already can blame it on Windows.

The get more money selling and upgrading to the latest greatest version of bloatware to come there way. Dropping $1500 or so ever other year is no big deal, or is it? Keep spending all the profits on new hardware so you can run the latest OS and software at the same speed you do the old OS and software on the old system.

Later on, wonder why there are more layoffs in your department. Hmmm, spends lots of money to bring in an "easy to use" package. Why do we need high priced techs to manage an "easy to use" package? After all, they just told us it was easy.

Not to mention, if you spend all the companies profits, it is the same as never making it in the first place.

by rkuhn040172

And out of all the things you say, none of it is FUD?

I will anytime admit some Windows flaws.

I have never heard some postings on here even come close to admitting that Linux isn't perfect.

Almost as if Linux parted the oceans, the skies cleared, and Jesus spoken words like /etc and biniares and tarballs.

by apotheon

Maybe that's because you're always trying to compare Linux with Windows. Truth be told, Linux isn't the best thing since sliced bread -- not by a long shot. It's not that Linux is great so much as that Windows is more problem than not. If you want maximum security, use OpenBSD (only one remotely exploitable vulnerability [b]ever[/b] in its history). If you want the full-on end-user friendly GUI experience, use MacOS X (or, even better, use BeOS). If you want a great developer platform, use Solaris with the full GNU toolset.

Maybe the reason you don't hear much bad about Linux is simply that you keep looking at it in comparison with Windows. Compared to Windows, there's not really a lot I can say that is bad about Linux. Sad but true.

I'm a long-time Windows certified IT guy. I've spent about half the time supporting Linux professionally that I have Windows. I'm not ignorant of Windows. I'm not making crap up. I'm not buying into marketing slogans and FUD.

Until you know Linux, your arguments will continue to ring hollow. You're coming across as pretty bitter: I hope that changes. In the meantime, I'm not interested in holding your hand if you're just going to keep trying to bite me.

by jdclyde

with the directions MicroSoft is taking you?

Even my buds that have always been gung-ho on MicroSoft through think and thin are finally starting to have their doubts.

How many times are systems "broken" because MS is more concerned with the security of keeping you from pirating the software than the security of you using their software?

What do you think about having the different levels of XP, and if needed, the XP cd MUST match the version that was installed?

Even if a linux distribution isn't in your best interests at this time, do you not think having a healthy linux alternative is good for YOU because it MAKES MS put out a better product at a better price to try to compete if there is real competition?

I run a mixed envirionment. windows pc's (but looking at linux desktops), one Win2kpro server (to run the AV) one SCO Unix for legacy software (cobol, in house), and five linux servers for mail, intranet, webserver, testing and backups.

I even run "Windows only" software on the linux servers with Samba.

And now that I have everyone off of IE and using FF, I don't have to spend 80% of my time cleaning pc's anymore.

Don't limit your options based on OS religion.

by rkuhn040172

Finally a statement I can agree with:

Even if a linux distribution isn't in your best interests at this time, do you not think having a healthy linux alternative is good for YOU because it MAKES MS put out a better product at a better price to try to compete if there is real competition?"

by rkuhn040172

Do you really think my manager really cares or differentiates the meaning of migration vs OS TCO?

My company is still small and old school...the accounting dept oversees IT. The bottom line is the bottom line.

Time is short, margins are tight. We don't look down the road years and years. We need impact now. Typical risk/benefit analysis.

Windows is expensive but it works. Low risk, decent benefits.

With Linux, high "migration" costs, taking a risk that it is right for our company, time to train, probably have to hire another IT staff (there's only two of us so that's a 50% increase), etc.

Not to mention Linux won't run our ERP software and we'd have to retrain 100+ employees and install it on no fewer than probably 75 PC's many of which are remote.

by apotheon

Perhaps you forgot about your previous post when you decided to start commenting on maturity.

You've passed the point of getting any sympathy from me at this point.

From the sound of it, you aren't in a position for a network-wide migration. I'd bet you will find yourself in circumstances where the addition of a single Linux server might be a good idea, but that doesn't mean you need to do a network-wide migration right now. Fine. Don't do it.

That being the case, stop complaining about the responses people give you, in a generic sense, to questions about the comparative benefits of Linux and Windows. If you have a specific application you need to run and it only runs on one OS, use that OS. Don't throw it in my face as if it refutes statements about security and cost concerns: it doesn't.

by rkuhn040172

We have a 3-5 year replacement cycle on PC's not "every other year".

In addition, our PC's cost about $500 each, including Win XP Pro pre-installed. OK, so Office 2003 isn't on there plus a few others, but we're still less than $750 per PC...half your estimate.

With a 4 year replacement cycle, that's about 50 cents per day per employee. Small price to pay for their productivity.

by deadly ernest

Down here in Australia a reasonable basic vanilla system starts at around A$1,200 or more for a real Pentium, A$800 for a Celeron - want something that will meet the requirements of Vista and you are talking around A$2,500 - then you add the cost of the operating system and software on top of that. Even the cheap Dell deals that we get at times start around A$1,000 - and a rough approximation of A$ to US$ is A$1 = US$1.75

A new basic Windows system with Office will be PC + XP + Office being $1,200 + $459 + $439 = A$2,098 for a real Pnetium 4 with retail software -- go the cheapest option with a Celeron and OEM upgrade software and you still shell out A$1,300.

Then if you have a fancy application whose W2K version does not run on XP (common problem) you now have to buy an upgrade for that, and any peripherals that are more than 3 years old will probably not have XP drivers available for them and also may need to be replaced.

by jdclyde

What make and model of business computer you are picking up for about $500 each? Must surely not be an IBM solution. Low end Compaqs? How well do these low end systems hold up, hardware wise?

What is ballpark of quantity you purchase at a time?

Is the cost of configuring, transfering user data and settings, as well as physical deployment included in this cost?

I can see this with new prices, but how much was paid for what model the LAST rotation?

What will your ballpark figures be to deploy Vista, and do you intend to?

What are the system requirements for Vista?

Personal note, I am sitting on a Celeron 600 whitebox and it does every business function I need it to, as well as my PII400 at home. Neither will run Vista, nor would be worth the expense to make a conversion for what I would "gain".

by rkuhn040172

dx200MT by HP $425 without extra RAM we put in. Purchased 40. Doesn't matter, $425 for one or 1,000...oh, actually probably less than $425 for that quantity don't know.

They hold up just fine. Probably a lot better than your P 600 Celeron and definitely better than a PII 400. Don't you ever wonder on what day your PII 400 will just give up and stop working altogether? It's time for that thing to cash in the 401k and retire.

Other costs not included but does that matter? We were running mostly 550mhz-800mhz and they weren't getting the job done with ALL of our software not just Windows plus increasing hardware failures...we are construction and environmental conditions are not as good as could be onsite.

The cost of last rotation is immaterial. The past is the past and we are budgeting for the future. I don't budget for past purchases. Besides, we ran those for about 4-5 years.

I don't care about Vista yet. We won't roll it out for at least 1-3 years. By then, that hardware will be cheap too.

by apotheon

I fear for your hardware and support quality with $500 computers, XP included. Where are you getting MS Office for less than $250? Last I checked, it costs more like $600 for a single license. Maybe you're using the "student" version, or buying from eBay.

by rkuhn040172

Stress Junkie apparently did his homework.

Yes, we bought 40 of those. DX2000MT (not sure what the "MT" stands for).

Anysways, Apotheon, wrong again. Besides, if you are paying $600 for Office, can I be your salesperson?

Depending on your needs (basic version say versus including Access or Publisher), Office 2003 is somewhere in the ballpark of $200-$300.

How can you argue against something so much Apotheon when you don't have your facts straight either? Maybe you are as big a victim of FUD as you say I am?

Lastly, yes our quality is pretty darn good. As prices fall, so do replacement cycles.

by deadly ernest

Often it is not that simple due to the marketting ploys. Mind you if you could do that you need not buy such a high end machine either.

Not sure what things are like in the USA but about 6 months after MS release their new version the old one is no longer available for purchase. Only way to get a copy of Win 2K Pro today is to buy some one's pre loved/hated copy, same with NT 4, etc.

If you are just upgrading the hardware you can remove the XP from the old one and load it on the new, whilst praying that the new system does not have built in components that XP does not have drivers for. However. in the business environment what is often happening is that you are buying machines for new staff and need a new copy of the OS - bad luck if you can not find a copy.

Then there is the fact that most businesses buy computers from the major dealerships and they come with the latest MS Windows preloaded with the cost of the OS already built into the price. So you now need to pay extra for XP have the drive wiped and XP installed, another added cost.

Oh and that does not cover the reduced support by MS for anything but the latest OS - see what they have to say about support for Win NT and Win 9x.

None of these are problems in Linux or many other OSs.

by deadly ernest

I know of many situations such as this one:

Company had 120 employees on a Win NT4 network established when NT4 first came out. They spent A$50,000 on special server based software essential to the core business operations - since then it has grown to being 180 people using Win NT4. They have tried the special apps on Win 2K Pro and server, and Win XP Pro - it does not run on them at all. Cost to buy latest version of the special apps in Win XP compatible version A$200,000. Everything still runs perfectly well in the Win NT4. Problems are in getting extra copies of Win NT4 for new staff and getting Win NT4 running properly on the latest hardware - seems Win NT4 drivers are not made for most of the latest hardware.

They are currently trialling the operation of their special apps using Crossover on Mandriva Linux - all seems OK so far - they are doing a 6 month trial, 3 to go.

On my home front I have 6 favorite computer games bought for Windows back in the late 1990s and 2001, they do not run in XP but run beautifully in Cedega on a Linux installation of Mandrake and Fedora Core 4.

by charliespencer

Some applications will only run under the older operating systems, especially home-grown apps. Compatibility mode doesn't always work.

Accusing people of double-speak before you see their reply isn't the best way to get an unbiased response.

by charliespencer

"...about 6 months after MS release their new version the old one is no longer available for purchase..."

That's how it is here, but you can legally install the older OS if you have a licensed new one. If you know you're going to need the CD, buy one copy before it's discontinued.

"...businesses buy computers ... with the latest MS Windows preloaded with the cost of the OS already built into the price. So you now need to pay extra for XP have the drive wiped and XP installed, another cost added."

The cost of a Windows OS is built in regardless of the version. Installing the an OS other than the pre-installed one doesn't add any cost for me. Even if I wanted the version of the OS that's pre-installed, I never let the default install run, or boot the machine without first installing my Ghost image for that model.

You have a valid point on the dropped support. I guess it doesn't impact me since I never call for OS support after the first couple of years of it's release.

by jaqui

Microsoft Office 2003 Professional Full, English
$649.99 Each

and the only other way is to spend 149 per application out of the suite you want. 149 for a stand alone version of word
149 for a stand alone version of excel.

cheaper by far to buy the more capable corel office at 96 for the full thing.

by jaqui

with customs Canada adding duties it comes to the same price

buying online from us based sites does not make it any cheaper for non us purchasers, customs and excise adds costs, exchange rates add cost.

This was from local reseller of software, licensed by MS to sell the products, not from ebay.

which just shows how little you actually know about how anything really works outside of your little box.

by jdclyde

Saying the extra costs don't matter though or they are not important? It is clear your not the one signing the check. No insult because I am not either. I just put in what I am told to put in.

Construction, ditto. Trailers out in the middle of construction, makes for a very dusty work place.

When do I retire a computer? When the dust kills it. :)

My 600? when it doesn't do the job. My 400 at home? same. Anyone who knows anything about computers knows the ONLY thing that makes a computer "obsolete" is when it won't do the job required of it well.

I expect a year on each system provided nothing burns up on them.

Past rollouts ARE relevent because you can look for hidden expenses that came up the last time around.

But if TOTAL costs is not important, it makes the $425 a disingenuous number to use as what your upgrade will cost. Can't hide half the costs under the rug as if they didn't happen just to make this update LOOK inexpensive.

by rkuhn040172

My little box is plenty big enough. Just like I shouldn't see things thru my rose colored glasses, neither should you.

Just because prices are better here isn't my fault. Nor is it yours.

But prices here are better and hence I see things different from you. I see that, you don't.

Prices on hardware and software are substantially different here in the US than other places...so yes, we do approach this discussion differently.

A Windows "system" here is substantially less $ to implement here.

by jaqui

and if you read my original post, I stated that here, I cannot get office for the price you mentioned and you said that my price was fud,

it boils down to you are spewing more fud than anyone else and accusing people of doing it.

READ entire posts.
then pull your head out of your ass and quit insulting someone when they clearly state that the price is local to begin with.

by bschmidt

I've done a lot of looking recently on Office 2K3 pricing (this was weeks ago so I don't know how accurate any of this is now). Here's how it broke out. Office Pro 2K3 is $600 retail, $320 upgrade and ~$300 OEM. Both are correct.

After that it gets confusing. Basic (OEM) is $160, which comes with Excel, Word and Outlook ONLY. Standard (retail upgrade) is the same as Small Business Edition (OEM) for about $230.

However you look at it, Office 2K3 is WAAAY overpriced when you can get OpenOffice for....FREE. (and this coming from one that suckles the MS teet himself)

Is there an open source equivalent to Access out there anywhere? If so I might drop Office and never look back...

by apotheon

OpenOffice.org 2.0 actually includes a database application analogous to Access that is called BASE. As for me, I prefer to work with either a basic text-file hierarchical directory structure database or something on the order of MySQL, depending on my needs. Office suite database applications aren't worth the trouble to me.

by jaqui

hmm I never saw that in the last version of open office I had installed, but then I never looked for it. I agree that if I need a database a stand alone server is better suited than one integrated into an office suite.

by apotheon

Thanks for the clarification. That makes a heck of a lot more sense to me now.

I hope I didn't come off too harshly. That troll, rickk, has gotten me suspicious of others, I guess.

by too old for it

... is where a small business can get really killed however.

I'm involved with one (501c3) at present. A simple web server, which is not their principle business. And a simple DNS server.

And we can't find a CentOS/BlueQuartz pro to come in for a couple of hours to set things right to save ourselves. Not for ANY kind of money. Just none available in Central Ohio.

ABout ready to go to Windows Server 2003 just so we can get back to the charitable work we are supposed to be doing.

by charliespencer

See the Trivia Geek's Wacky Linux Adventure series of blog postings. Specifically, see https://www.techrepublic.com.com/5254-6257-0.html?forumID=99&threadID=173893&messageID=1927360&id=1383826
for his comments on, and link to, the Linux Distro Chooser.

If you aren't familiar with TG's WLA series, he's documenting his attempts to load Linux on an older laptop. He's starting from scratch and is a total Linux novice. Great reading. Seach TR for the tag wackylinux.

Yeah, I know, I used a long URL you'll probably have to cut and paste, instead of creating a short one like appy does; and I referenced other pages without including links. I don't know how. Smack me 'til I cry and call me an ignorant Nancy-boy.

by apotheon

To create a short URL, go to tinyurl.com and do what seems obvious.

I don't always use tinyurl when I should. I get lazy sometimes.

by stress junkie

He decided to use a live CD distro on the old Armada. Result, long boot time and a dead battery stopping the boot process. It's definitely worth a read for anyone curious about Linux.

by jaqui

CentOS openly admits that they are a clone of RHEL

the only way to tell which distro is based on what, look at the package manger, if it's using .deb then it's debian based, if rpm then it's red hat based.
if it's tgz, tar tar.gz .bz2 then it's either slakware or from scratch

by apotheon

As Jaqui pointed out, you can go by the package format rule of thumb to determine what the major distribution "family" of a given distro is. To determine what's related, generally you just have to read a bit about the distribution itself. Typically the website for a distro will tell you about its origins and what sort of similarities it has to major distributions (as well as some differences).

When in doubt, you could always check Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Linux_distributions

by apotheon

You claim you're not a troll, you're not just instigating flame wars, you're open minded, et cetera, et alii, ad infinitum, ad nauseam. Then you post a declaration that Linux security is a myth, with specious "arguments" to back it up, in response to a subthread that has exactly zero to do with security.

Thanks for playing. Your true colors are showing. You might want to add another coat of paint.

by rkuhn040172

So, I'm a troll for posting a real study by a real source.

Rather than discussion the points of the article, you call me a troll and what not.

Debate it! They are real facts. Denial is one thing, which you seem to do well. Debating the facts, helping people form an opinion is something you are not so good at.

If someone posts stats, studies, etc all you ever do is deny, smear, or discredit the source.

The only good sources seem to be your sources. If that's not FUD, what is?

by jdclyde

provide independate information from people that don't have a vested interest in people using Windows instead of lunix.

SAN's is a good place to start.

I have not been following your conversation with Apotheon so I am not discrediting your previous sources, just making a suggestion.

If you walk in with a SAN's report saying that the average pc running windows right now is just as secure as the average pc running linux, I would read it.

Now if you start to put qualifiers on it, like specifying XPproSP2, then you had better be making the same qualifier for only the current patched version of linuxes out there.

oh, and will you be adding in software to this windows system to protect it, like firewall, AV, adware, malware checkers? If you have to spend 50 to 100 dollars to the bill to PROTECT the windows system, then what is THAT saying for windows right off the bat?

I will check back to see what you have to say.

by apotheon

Since you indicated you weren't following the discussion in question, I'll illuminate the situation for you:

He jumped into the middle of a discussion of something entirely unrelated to security with a random link to a discussion on another website discussing some vulnerability reporting rates and making wild claims about Linux lacking security. I called him on trolling for flames in a discussion unrelated to the subject he brought up, so he decided to post this out of context where he could make me look like anything he wanted and people too lazy to hunt up the other discussion might take his words at face value.

by apotheon

1. Why would I want to justify your mid-thread non sequitur interruption with a reply that treats your trolling as reasonable discourse?

2. In case you hadn't noticed, there's plenty of refutation already at the URL you provided.

3. Again, why would I want to justify trolling by responding as though it were legitimately reasonable discourse? Ever since your initial postings, you've said nothing that wasn't severely loaded with anti-Linux rhetoric, and most of it insulting.

by rkuhn040172

And your opinions are anything but anti-Windows?

Like I have said, I am installing, learning and trying to use Linux right now.

And I accidently posted that in the wrong sub thread. I'm sorry for you're being so insensitive to my error.

Just because I respond to your posts means I'm a troll? You respond to many of mine...are you a troll as well? You seem to bring up nothing but insults time and time again.

I have actually started a blog here about my Linux experience thus far with Mandriva. Some of it comments on the good and some of it the bad.

Regardless of your opinion of my opinion on the technical merits of Linux, being a newbie to Linux, you can't discount my experience as it would be the same or similar to someone else trying to do the same.

Perhaps if the Linux world listened to people's comments like mine, they could make Linux better in so far as making it more easily usable for the rest of us.

by jmgarvin

Your logic makes no sense. Even if that were an issue, as soon as I log out, the state is lost and I'd have to run the same crap all over again.

Plus, worse case scenario, only the specific user is effect, not the whole machine.

You've not the slightest, please stop trying to act like you do.

by sleepin'dawg

Do you even know what WMF stands for??? Well duh!!! How does [b]W[/b]indows [b]M[/b]eta [b]F[/b]ile grab you??? Feeling a tad nauseous right about now??? The vast majority of virus attacks are written for Windows. Why you may ask??? Because Windows has the largest installed user base.

Now that, that is out of the way, lets look at security. So your shop is full of Windoze Weenies and they are too stupid/lazy to learn something new. Maybe you are running some Windows specific apps you/they refuse to shed. Run Windows up front put Linux on the back end and you will go a long way to securing your server. Take a look at Novell for a no brainer, that anyone who can walk and chew gum at the same time, should be able to handle.

[b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

by rkuhn040172

I accidentally posted it in that sub thread. I meant to post it in a new thread.

Either way, it is a real study from Secunia that was originally defending Linux as more secure.

by rkuhn040172

First of all, thanks for the unneeded and unnecessary personal attacks. Is the best way to debate this to insult the other side?

Second, I am fully aware of what WMF stands for. That's for your enlightenment though.

My point was, perhaps in Linux's quest to have some interoperability with Windows programs, they have inadvertently opened up a security hole themselves.

Sure, that's a Windows flaw. But Linux is potentially vulnerable to it now because of the desire of those to run those programs to have their Windows capabilities.

by sleepin'dawg

It will come to you in time. In the meantime consider what I said about keeping Windows on your front end and using Linux on the back end. BTW Linux does not quest for interoperability per se so much as it provides a convenience for those in transition towards a properly logical environment free of the onslaughts found in the windows environment, which endeavours to be all things to all people. Windows is like a dog walking on its hind legs; we do not marvel at how well it does it but that it does it at all and far to often windows lies down, rolls over and plays dead. Sometimes it is not playing.

Oh for what it is worth; will IE 7 have tabs finally??? Not that I care; I left it behind a long time ago as I assume you did too. MS isn't the only solution in the world nor is it the best.

Isn't it remarkable that MS is putting out security patches on an OS it isn't about to ship for another year???

[b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

by rkuhn040172

Doesn't Linux periodically patch something in development? That's the whole point of development. Programmers aren't perfect and don't get it right every time. That's why it is called Beta.

I have been using Firefox for quite some time now (I prefer IE) and find myself hardly ever using the tabs. I personally think the addition of tabs to IE7 was only to bow down to all the media attention. The major thrust of the overhaul is security, not tabs.

Many articles out lately are even making the point to almost laugh at the addition of tabs. Anti-phishing, anti-spyware, etc are all way more important.

by charliespencer

"Isn't it remarkable that MS is putting out security patches on an OS it isn't about to ship for another year???"

Not really. It's a beta. That's what beta's are for.

Unfortunately, it won't be remarkable when the send out more security patches three weeks (or less) after it's released.

by jdclyde

I laugh at people that laugh at tabs! :D

As someone that has an AVERAGE of 6 tabs open at a time (currently 12) it is much easier to navigate between them with the tabs than the window tab at the bottom, because I also have two other applications open AVERAAGE. That just doesn't fit well on the bottom.

Oh, the phishing/spyware/malware/viruses are all very important to ff too.

[i]"The major thrust of the overhaul is security"[/i]
Hmm, I haven't heard that since the last time I heard it, and it was about another MS product which was security centered. You might have heard of it, it's called Windows XP. Oh yeah, major exploits, so you better put a service pack on that, ooops, still problems? Well, THIS time we mean it with SP2!

After you hear this enough times, when will you question it?

On a professional note, I was spending about 70% of my time just cleaning viruses and malware off pc's, until I put FF on all the work systems. Now if I spend 5% of my time on that, it would be because of rounding up to the nearest major intiger. It has REALLY saved me lots of time, and continues to save me time.

by apotheon

A true tabbed browsers (as opposed to some of the third party IE add-ons that just made multiple browser instances look like tabs) are a tool for people who can walk and chew gum at the same time -- multitaskers, like me. I currently have six tabs open. Most of the time, I have no less than three or four open, and I've been known to have thirty or more open.

The six tabs I have open, by the way, are:
1. this one

2. a discussion forum

3. a response to my TR blog

4. an article related to AMD forums being brought down by a Windows exploit

5. the "Windows vs. Linux" discussion thread

6. an off-site blog

All of these ended up open after one pass through one of my email accounts. I received notice of replies to things I said in five discussions and an indication of an article (the AMD and Windows exploit article) that I wanted to read. Actually, there were two more tabs, but I already dealt with them before I got to this one, so it was actually up around eight rather than just six tabs when I started.

A true tabbed browser doesn't eat up the system resources that you get from opening multiple discrete instances of a browser, whether they're made to look like tabs by some third-party application or not. Considering I'm using a 366MHz Pentium 2 for all of this, it should be fairly obvious that reduced overhead is, in this case, not mere conceit on my part -- to say nothing of the fact that the screen is far less cluttered and the workspace easier to manage when I've got things in tabs rather than whole new application instances.

by rkuhn040172

Cmon jdclyde...70% of your time cleaning?

I work at a company with 100+ users and I spend maybe 1 hour a month on cleaning.

A) I would suggest you hire someone who makes less money than you to do the cleaning if it is that big a problem (sounds like almost a full time job) and doesn't require higher level IT

B) I would suggest you buy the necessary products (hardware and software) to prevent such incidents

C) I would suggest you also have a management issue. Unless you are working for a firm that reviews and rates porn sites or gambling sites, where is all this spyware/adware coming from?

by jdclyde

I am not setup to be the IT Nazi here. It is a family business with about 100 users, and I do not have the authority to TELL them anything.

While yes, there are solutions out there for large environments with large budgets to keep things secure, I am not in this large environment and I do not have a large budget.

You work with what you have.

The MOST I can do is make sure the AV is kept up to date, updated systems as much as possible and run AdAware at every chance I get.

If you have some hardware and software solutions that you would like to inform the class on, I am always looking for ways to improve things. (as I did with the ff conversion).

Again, I work with what I am given. The 70% was accurate, not a rant.

Users are restricted only by what they feel they can get away with as it is not my job to monitor them. Out of my hands!

by apotheon

I've never seen a public testing development version of a Linux kernel requiring security fixes this far in advance of the next release version. For that matter, I've never seen a public testing development version of a kernel exist this far in advance of a superseding release version.

by rkuhn040172

Ok, it's not testing or in development but:

I downloaded and installed the latest and greatest version of Mandriva.

After install, I had 55 security updates, 34 bugfixes, and 3 "normal" updates to install.

All software, Windows and Linux, needs patching. We are all human and we all make mistakes.

by jaqui

the Mandriva kernel in the release is based on code from 6 months ago.
so is every other package installed.

they have a six month release schedule, and when 2006 was released they went, got the latest version of the packages and started working on the next version.

All a distro is:
a collection of separate software projects, wrapped into one install program.
The only code Mandriva owns:
Drakx - the installer
Drak Xtools - their system configuration tools
[ includes their version of rpm, urpmi ]

everything else is completely different groups or companies code.

unless the patches were to the Drakx or Drak Xtools, they can't be held accountable for the number of patches. kde will release a patch for every issue as it's ready, reguardless of if that means 30 patches in 3 days or 1 patch in 4 months.

by apotheon

It's not remarkable. It's funny, since this is something that just doesn't happen with public testing of development Linux kernels (Linux kernel development is far, far faster than Windows development), but it's understandable and "forgivable" since it's not a release version of Windows yet.

The problem, as you rightly point out, is the fact that the new Windows release versions are pretty much no better than development versions for security.

by rkuhn040172

My point was all OS'es and software are swiss cheese and require constant patching. Some more than others grant it.

This includes Windows, Linux, Mac OS, etc. It includes MS Office, OpenOffice, IE, Firefox, etc.

After reading all these posts, you'd think Microsoft's products were the only ones (beta or not) needing constant patching.

Anytime you engineer something, someone can reverse engineer it given enough time.

That's the ultimate point of a layered approach anyways. Hardware and software firewalls, AV, multiple OS flavors, proxies, anti-spyX, etc.

"Denial is the most predictable of all human emotions."

- The Architect, The Matrix Reloaded

by jaqui

common "hello world" needs debugging, how can we reasonably expect soemthing 10 billion times as complex to be bug free?

I'll knock microsoft for taking way to long to patch.
for requiring a critical security exploit as part of the os [ activex ]
for a whole bunch of bonehead things they do.

but to be making sure that beta testers machines are given patches to keep the machines secure, and the version up to date with current? no. not for normal development procedures.

by sleepin'dawg

Why not add Spybot Search and Destroy as well as Spyware Blaster to your arsenal. The latter is great on ActiveX stuff. Spybot S&D will nail the stuff that AdAware misses and vice versa. We use all three and for what it's worth we run AdAware once a week but these two get run daily. Spybot and Spyware run in a fraction of the time it takes to run AdAware. You probably already know all this but I just thought it worth mentioning in passing. Oh by the way, go into the registry and switch WMF to off and this eliminates the threat of WMF exploits. I have a line of code that allows me to switch this feature off and on from the command line but I don't have it here with me. Remind me when I get home next month and I'll send it to you. If screwing around in the registry increases your pucker factor in any way, it might be safer to wait for me to send it to you but if it doesn't bother you that much, it really doesn't take rocket science to do it. BTW all this noise about WMF exploits has been blown all out of proportion and is really only applicable to the most careless of Windoze weenies. They are out there but a little common sense, which unfortunately isn't very common, goes a long way in eliminating the worst of this.

[b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

by sleepin'dawg

Predictable and not very original. Some people are incapable of walking and chewing gum at the same time. Since we are into quotes here; here's one that predates your's by more than a century and it has now become a cliche:

[b]" 'Tis better to remain silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."[/b]

another:

[b]"It is harder to hear and learn if your mouth is always open."[/b]

Have a nice day.

[b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

by rkuhn040172

Who's the one who knows how to walk and chew gum at the same time and who's the one who hears and learns more if my network isn't choking in adware, spyware, virus, etc and I'm not spending 70% of my time cleaning systems?

My IT department is more than a fix and repair shop. My IT department offers a competitive advantage for our company over its competitors. We create things, we don't just constantly fix things.

I measure a person's value by objective, measurable results to business objectives. You seem to measure a person's worth by smart ass comments, pretending you know everything, and putting people down.

IT departments are no different than any other division in a company. If a problem such as adware, viruses, etc is such a big issue, the REAL issue is why the company hasn't dealt with it, managed it, and solved it...and not just with technology...again, there is a management component as well.

by apotheon

Allow me to offer another overused cliche expression. I'll only hint at it, though, as I'm sure you've heard it before. It seems to apply well to you:

pot, kettle

by sleepin'dawg

730 employees spread across three different locations and I am the majority shareholder. I didn't get here by sucking eggs; I got here by recognizing talent and ability and by minimizing and eliminating dead weight. I also developed a highly sensitive bullcrap filter which I employ in that activity. Another of my keys to success is to minimize my reliance on any of Mr. Gates' products as much as possible and that is why we are only very peripheraly a Windows shop; i.e. some of our acquisitions remain Windows oriented. If I were hiring tomorrow, which I'm not, other than janitor, what job could you fill because right now, from everything you have demonstrated here, I wouldn't let you within a mile of IT. Anyone that is as close minded and intent on being ignorant need not apply because you'd be weeded out very quickly before your butt could hit a chair. You measure by objective results??? Now that's a laugh. I'll believe you if and when you become capable of objectivity; until then you're nothing but run of the mill, subjective gofer. If you want to run with the big dogs pally, you have to at least get off the porch. You can't even follow a thread properly. Your reply to me should have been futher up where my comments were.

[b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

by rkuhn040172

Stop stroking yourself before you can't satisfy your wife anymore.

I completely respect your choices and your business decisions. The problem is, you don't trust mine. And since you don't know all the facts, who's closed minded?

You don't know me so that is as closed minded as it gets by prejudging me.

Lastly, at least once and probably more times, my replies to you were not further up the chain because a maximum number of posts can be reached. At that point, you have to start another.

Check your facts. You're wrong again.

by apotheon

You should seriously consider adding Bazooka Adware and Spyware Scanner to your arsenal. It does the fastest scans I have ever seen and returns more comprehensive scan results. I haven't had to use it in a few months, so I suppose things could have changed, but at last reckoning it was the best scanner out there.

Bazooka has two characteristics that could potentially be problems.

1. It doesn't actually remove any adware or spyware -- it just detects it and provides a mechanism for getting information on how to remove it. I actually liked this characteristic, though, since it serves as an excellent tool for learning more about how the guts of the Windows system works, whereas tools like Spybot Search and Destroy (also an excellent tool, for other reasons) just work like magic. I find it highly advantageous to know what's going on behind the scenes when possible, and Bazooka definitely makes that easy.

2. In order to get the cleanup information, Bazooka uses Internet Explorer to access an online database. This has two severe shortcomings: one is that you cannot reach the online database if the problems you're having keep you offline, and the other is that it requires IE (likely the biggest source of malware on your computer by a factor of about a hundred), which can be specifically crippled by the very things you're trying to remove.

After getting used to going through the standard Bazooka-recommended procedures for removing stuff, you can start making use of the text file output of Bazooka (you can have it produce such a file, with more technical data about what it has found than you'd otherwise get) and direct registry searches to find malware configurations and executable binaries on your own, which can provide an even more comprehensive cleanup than you'd get from the Bazooka online database of instructions for malware removal.

As a result of extensive use of Bazooka while I was consulting and doing Windows system cleanups for a living, I have a more in-depth understanding of Windows registry hacking than anyone I've ever met. It's getting kind of rusty since I got out of that line of work, and haven't had to deal with Windows much, but the knowledge gained was invaluable while I was working with Windows systems. It was in part because of this experience that I learned how to turn off the desktop process without screwing up the operation of my Windows systems when I had them, thus improving system performance and security characteristics of the system. Since I didn't like using desktop icons anyway, it was a beautiful thing to learn to do.

by apotheon

I suppose you haven't noticed the vertical stacks of replies to circumvent the maximum post depth limit and [b]keep replies within context[/b]. Nobody "has to" start over. In fact, you're one of only two or three people I've seen who habitually does so -- everyone else simply tags on another post in the string and makes it clear what post is the target of the reply, or at least what user, if it is not the post immediately preceding.

You might learn from the example of others.

by rkuhn040172

Either way, you seem to be able to read my posts just fine.

As intelligent as you are and as inefficient and clueless as I am, you should be able to workaround it.

You mention me adding irrelevent or meaningless information to this discussion...just how meaningful was your pointing out that from time to time I post incorrectly?

That little check box called "Notify me via email..." that should help you out. And you've been the only one to complain.

by rkuhn040172

Windows users have been saying this for years and it was constantly discredited by Linux users.

Yet, now you choose to use it in your arsenal of arguments. Ironic indeed!

"Even if they are "successfully" exploited more often in terms of absolute numbers, however, it's possible that this is merely a statistical artifact of the greater number of Linux servers in certain implementations than Windows servers, where a lower percentage of successful attacks might involve such a huge number of servers that the absolute number of successful attacks might be higher."

by jaqui

I remember someone making such a comment here on TR in a discussion.
I looked at the exploit they were saying was a linux server exploit.

It was not a linux server exploit.

It was a cross site scripting exploit, that affected any site running the scripts, no matter what os the webserver was running on.

it didn't damage anything but the website.
[ sql injection exploit ]

What is becoming more common is cross platform vulnerabitities based on cross site scripting errors, as a lot of website designers do not include site security other than basic authentication in a website. The most frequent reason cited for a vulnerability is a lack of sanitisation of user supplied input.

I've also seen an exploit in a php scripted website called a linux exploit. [ oddly, apache runs on windows, with mod_php, microsoft's iis can use php if you jump through the hoops to add it, making any php script exploit cross platform, not os specific. ]

There have been found recently exploits based on ruby and openssh.