Desktop

Ask something
Discussion Locked

A Stroll Through Linux Wonderland . . .

0 helpful
25 replies

by number 6 2 views

Closed to new repliesThis discussion is closed. It stays readable, but it takes no new replies.

I confess.

Being so pleased with Microsoft's recent release (defecation?) of Vista upon the great unwashed masses, I finally gave in to the primal urge which has beckoned me to a good, hard look at the Linux desktop. I did this not only for myself, but for the endless stream of miserable people who call on me to pull their ailing, bloated systems out of a malware-infested sausage grinder. Security and clean functionality: There had to be a better way for everyone here.

So, armed with a sense of euphoric resolve to finally put an end to my little corner of the Microsoft treadmill, I rolled up my sleeves and dug in. After several weeks of "Distro Watching", forum scouring, and endless gigabytes of unintentional beta-testing (ahem), I found myself finally answering the question: "Why bother with Windows?" Well, my report is as follows --

First observation: Until ReactOS finally (if ever) matures, there may never be a replacement for the native functionality which has already been extended to Windows through the MILLIONS of commercial and freeware offerings available to the platform. The flexibility and diversity provided here cannot be matched by Linux or anything else, period. And yes, I have heard of WINE.

Next, my trollings revealed that a significant portion of the complications which prevent Linux from being more widely adopted as a replacement for Windows is the ongoing unavailability of drivers for hardware (printers, anyone?) and the pervasive, entrenched unwillingness on the part of the greater development community to drop its arcane and problematic approach to ad-hoc software installation. Security and usefulness can be balanced here, and indeed must be; to allow for the ready installation of unknown new software by the end user (true freedom?). Ultimately, this is the right and privilege of the computer system owner (idiot or otherwise), and must not be shunted away. Furthermore, the global technical problems which require distro-specific compilation of new software for a given installation is an abomination and must be roundly addressed: which brings me to my last point.

The final crippling blow for Linux today really comes down to ego on the part of individual members of the development community and their disjointed hodgepodge of distros du jour. For, without a central, standardized, unified SINGLE distribution effort to forcefully address those several issues which prevent its widespread adoption, Linux will never find popular support in either the freeware or commercial software sectors; and, therefore, will continue to languish in relative obscurity ad infinitum.

Get smart, get it together, or get out, Linux: Microsoft is laughing its head off at your ongoing disorganization and narcissistic behavior; and we're all suffering the consequences.

Tower of Babel, anyone???

25 replies

by jmgarvin

I swear I've seen this exact same post (and refuted this exact same post) for the past decade.

Meh, why bother AGAIN...

by charliespencer

You say you've seen the same litany for a decade. Why refute it again?

Well, this is a person who's just given Linux a try. Maybe he hasn't seen your counterpoints. On the other hand, if he's repeating complaints you've heard before, maybe it's because no one is addressing them.

I too am tired of hearing purists insist closed-source drivers are unacceptable, and that no driver at all is preferable. Talk about cutting your beak off to spite your face...

His post could have have been less judgmental, but that may be due to frustration. It certainly sounds like some of my feelings whenever I make the attempt, although I have different problems. I wish he had posted his problems here as he encountered them instead of a post-traumatic semi-rant. I've always found TR members to be helpful with Linux issues.

by jmgarvin

"The flexibility and diversity provided here [with Windows] cannot be matched by Linux or anything else, period. And yes, I have heard of WINE."

I'm not sure I'm tracking. You claim that Linux isn't flexible, but I'm able to chose to run command line only, log in on multiple consoles (truly multi-user), use different Window Mangers, have my choice of text editing/word processing/spreadsheet/etc apps.

What isn't flexible about Linux? What diversity are you looking for? You can't complain that there are too many Linux distros and then complain there isn't flexibility or diversity.

"Next, my trollings revealed that a significant portion of the complications which prevent Linux from being more widely adopted as a replacement for Windows is the ongoing unavailability of drivers for hardware (printers, anyone?)"

What print drivers weren't working? This has been pretty well sorted out about 5 years ago.

"and the pervasive, entrenched unwillingness on the part of the greater development community to drop its arcane and problematic approach to ad-hoc software installation."

What? You'd rather use a CD or have everything installed by default or what? I thought you wanted flexibility?

What's wrong with apt-get, yum, or any other flavor of package manager?

"Security and usefulness can be balanced here, and indeed must be; to allow for the ready installation of unknown new software by the end user (true freedom?)."

Uh, you can. You can bork up your user space ALL you want...you just can't bork up the system like you can in Windows.

"Ultimately, this is the right and privilege of the computer system owner (idiot or otherwise), and must not be shunted away."

sudo is your friend.

"Furthermore, the global technical problems which require distro-specific compilation of new software for a given installation is an abomination and must be roundly addressed: which brings me to my last point."

Why not use the package manager and NOT compile from source? You aren't FORCED into a box like you are with MS. Your only choice is ONE Window Manager, ONE user at a time, NO package manager that compares what many Linux distros have to offer.

"The final crippling blow for Linux today really comes down to ego on the part of individual members of the development community and their disjointed hodgepodge of distros du jour."

It's called choice. What works for me, may not work for you. I may prefer Gentoo, you may prefer Ubuntu. That's just fine.

"For, without a central, standardized, unified SINGLE distribution effort to forcefully address those several issues which prevent its widespread adoption, Linux will never find popular support in either the freeware or commercial software sectors; and, therefore, will continue to languish in relative obscurity ad infinitum."

Uh, Linux is QUITE popular in the commercial software sector and becoming more popular in the home computing sector. Hence, Dell offering Ubuntu PCs.

"Tower of Babel, anyone???"

The Tower of Babel is MS. Nothing quite works right in Vista. Many .Net 3.0 apps still need EXTRA code to make them behave properly in Vista. The biggest blow is Windows, Office, and .Net are drifting further apart and the APIs are turning into a huge frustration for devs.

by jaqui

they use the exact same RH Linux 7 for their tests instead of being SMART enough to get a recent version.

after all, a 10 year old verion will not have changed, so they can lie to everyone and say it's no good. ;)

by deity_chooch

I think the main issue is that you are coming into the GNU/Linux world with a Windows mindset. You cannot run EXE binaries on GNU/Linux (again, yes we all know of wine). Trust the GNU/Linux distribution's package manager and use programs made for GNU/Linux. The goal isn't to get people to use Windows programs on GNU/Linux, it's to get them to use similar, free programs on a new Operating System.

And sure, your printer with the Windows sticker on it works well in Windows, but that's because Microsoft pays people to write drivers. GNU/Linux drivers are written by intelligent, helpful people who wish to share with others. Security, of course, is very dependent upon the end user, but compare the Windows OS to the GNU/Linux OS "out of the box" and you will see the lack of viruses/spyware for GNU/Linux as a wonderful gift to the end users who don't know how to secure their system, or who simply don't want to spend the money to do so.

You last "crippling blow" is a misunderstanding of GNU/Linux. A distribution is a set of tools for people to use with the Linux kernel and there are quite a few good ones out there: Ubuntu, SUSE, Dream, etc. If you don't like the package manager included in a distro, guess what? You can change it! It may not be the OS you are looking for, but your preference doesn't equate to a GNU/Linux fault. Also, GNU/Linux not only will find, but has found, popular support in freeware software. Ever heard of Open Source? It's a massive movement and mostly based on *nix systems. I say let Microsoft laugh, it's not a popularity contest.

by deity_chooch

I had not read that article before. It was a very good read, even for someone who has been using GNU/Linux for a while. I'll have to bookmark it. Thanks!

by dhohls

Agreed. There should be a link to this from the front-page of the website of every distro out there. "Before you download, read this!".

If the OP had read even the last 8 paragraphs of the "NOT Windows" article, it may have saved him some pain.

by rknrlkid

There are two things that I think all people need to realize:

1. Linux is NOT Windows.

2. Windows is NOT computing.

They are different. Different is okay. I have a computer running Ubuntu, and I have a brand new laptop running Vista. I use them for different things.

Talk about drivers being a problem: The curious thing to me is that I had to buy a printer specifically for the Vista machine! And the wireless doesn't work well! (Gee, where have I heard that before??) ;)

Computers existed long before Windows, and did quite well. And before Windows, there was real choice: Commodore, Amiga, Atari, Kaypro, Radio Shack. Each ran a different type of operating system. Each had it own sets of drivers for different hardware. Each had its own quirks. The only thing I don't recall happening is everyone complaining because they didn't talk to each other!

Linux is not Windows. It requires a new skill set, and some flexibility while learning it. Heck, Windows was the same way when it came out - it required learning new skills. Expecting Linux to bend to be Windows is like expecting a cat to be a dog. They might be about the same size, but they aren't the same thing.

by charliespencer

I keep reading comments from people saying they couldn't get Vista drivers for their printer. I'm not debating that, but every version of Windows since 3.11 has included a "Generic / Text Only" driver. Has this been left out of Vista? I realize such a driver will not allow you to use the full capabilities of a printer. I'm just wondering if it is still present, and if people bother to try it before they buy a replacement printer.

by charliespencer

I agree the posts below about his possibly bringing the wrong mindset to this trial.

From the standpoint of one who has tried three distros (each current when I tried them), I have only one disagreement with your positions above.

"What? You'd rather use a CD or have everything installed by default or what? I thought you wanted flexibility?"

Yes, I'd rather have the option to use optical media. I once spent money ordering Fedora on 4 DVDs. I didn't install everything during the initial installation, figure I could pull anything else I wanted off the DVD later. it was beyond my feeble abilities to configure Fedora to use the DVDs as a repository, despite massive assistance from many TR members.

Why would I want to do this? Because not everyone has a broadband connection, and downloading apps over a dial-up line is painfully slow. That's why I ordered the DVDs in the first place. If Linux discriminates against the home user in any way, it's the assumption that everyone has a broadband connection. It's great that it's free, but that isn't much of a selling point if I have to hook up a $59 per month umbilical cord.

I realize this isn't a technology issue. Other than that, you were dead on.

by jmgarvin

You can point to the local repository as of 6 with yum, yes?

Wasn't that FC5 that you were using? (I remember the thread, but honestly, it was a while ago).

I totally agree though. With Debian, Ubuntu, Gentoo, and other, you can point to a local repository (eg a DVD) and pull from that rather than connect to the internet.

by rknrlkid

That is the problem with the Linux driver complaints too. No one wants to just print *words* they want to print photos and pretty pictures off the internet. So, the correct driver is very important.

If all we wanted to do was print words, then we could still be using our IBM dot matrix printers :)

by jmgarvin

I had trouble printing to a HP 5100 (I think that was the model) with the generic print driver...It would only print a # and @ on the page then kill the print job....

For other printers I had good luck with it though.

by jaqui

that I see companies looking for people to admin rh 7 to rh 9 regularly.

backporting patches to keep it secure?
no thanks, way to much work for the pay.
[ not to mention admin for win2k network is included in job description ]

by jmgarvin

I've never understood why companies are so afraid to migrate when it is PAINFULLY obvious that the product is deprecated.

by charliespencer

but we have several DOS and W95 machines in storage as backups for operational systems. The applications are home-grown ones that run diagnostic tests on some of our products. The apps are optimized for the processors (!) and if we move them to faster hardware the programs run too fast. The programmers have long since left, and the department doesn't have the developer-hours to rewrite them. We're looking at desktop virtualization as a potential solution: create the virtual machine and starve it for resources.

In this case we have no reason to upgrade these standalone systems. Our biggest problem is keeping an operational supply of spares. We lose at least one whenever we test them annually. I'm not offering this as an excuse for not staying current, and it certainly doesn't excuse not keeping servers within a version or two of current releases.

by j-mart

Posting to get the old linux - windows flame going to fill in the day ?. As most who work in technology,know linux has moved a long way from being the technical toy it was back in the 90's. Today's linux is a mature, stable easy to use modern OS that is a usefull tool that has many uses within the IT industry, it is not windows, it does not work the same, it is different.

That said, any competent IT profesional, from a windows background, if they have the need or the inclination, should be equiped with the knowlege an skills needed to come up to speed with linux retatively easily. If, as an IT profesional this is too difficult, with linux in its present state of developement, maybe technology is not you best career option. that said, computers, linux, windows, etc is not something we need to become obsessed about, these are just another tool to get certain jobs accomplished.

Personally my OS of choice is linux, it is all I need on my own personal computers to do the tasks I require, at work my employer provides me with a winXP machine to do my work, but I could probably do the same work on a linux machine. I still find the odd task that can be performed most efficiently using DOS as the OS. We can all get on our soap box and rant on about which is the best OS, but we are supposed to be living in a free world ( free as in speach not as in beer) so you use whatever OS that does it for you and I will choose the one that suits me.

by jaqui

are the mission critical servers, where having them completely current is a very good investment. It would give a more reliable server, with more interconnectivity features for the multi platform environment.

This discussion is closed to new replies.