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Buy a new system, for yourself

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by jaqui

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As we all know, just try to hit a local brick and mortar to get a system [ other than a Mac ] that doesn't come with NT* preloaded. [ on top of a massive amount of really bad software, the demo ware / trial ware ]

Seems to me it's actually a violation of Federal Regulations for that to be the case. There are regulations guaranteeing that WE, the consumers, have competitive products available. So I filed formal complaint against the entire Computer industry because they do not have ALL operating systems that will power the hardware available in the stores.

seems the Competition Office of the Canadian Government wants to talk with me about it now. :D

* NT, calling the OS for it's kernel, just as dipsticks do for GNU/Linux.

43 replies

by jaqui

what about the big chain stores to buy electronics / software in?
they are worse than the small mom and pop operations in many ways.
the mom and pop shop doesn't have a "contract" to install windows on every system, so they at least sell bare metal.

the big chains sell the brand name systems, and you have no choice as to what os you get.
that is as anti-competitive as you can get.
you can even call it a monopoly creating setup.

by ansugisalas

it really hit me... why would I want one that has win7?
Why not a blank? Or anything else than Win7?

Because I really don't want to start learning Win7 when I can start learning something useful instead, something that can run on a not-early-adopter machine and leave resources over for actual use...

So I'm with you.
Hey, anybody know if there are online shops selling notebook parts like there used to be with desktops... you know... for self-building?
I'd love to do that, if it's at all viable that is.

by charliespencer

but at least they'll still be there when I need a replacement under warranty.

You may have local independent retailers that will sell you a bare box. Good luck finding one around here.

Is it a monopoly when my car comes with an engine? Sure, there may be better ones available, but try to tell the car salesman you're going to install your own engine, you'd like to buy a car without one, and you expect to pay less because it isn't in there.

by jaqui

you can go to a different car dealer and get a "better engine"

you can't get a different os from computer retailers.

when there are only automotive dealers telling you that you can only have a 3 cylinder diesel instead of letting you pick the 8 cylinder high performance engine, then you can start to compare the two.

by nexs

No cursewords in my classroom, thank you very much.

Ha! Joking!

Or am I?

by boxfiddler Hot topic

when it comes to desktop boxes, I build my own. Buy the parts and put it together myself. Load what I want to load on it. Fiddle it into netherland, and start again. :^0

by jaqui

that's kind of what I do also.
but I decided to rock the boat about the situation.

now lets see if I can rock it enough. :D

by oh smeg

You could also buy a Bare Bones NB and then your preferred CPU, RAM, Optical Drive and HDD fit them as you like and then load your preferred OS.

Nothing stopping you from doing that you know. ;)

Gigabyte, Clevo, Benq and Micro Star International all have their own Bare Bone NB Chassis available.

Col

by thechas

I actually have 2 new and 2 used computer local retailers where I can walk in and buy a computer with no OS installed.

That said, we are down from 5 or 6 retailers and it has been several years since we had a computer parts road show stop in town. On-line sales have made it unprofitable for most of the physical presence parts sellers to stay in business.

As to the big box stores, and the retail computer industry in general, just what percentage of purchasers would buy a computer without Windows installed?

There just is not large enough of a retail market for systems without Windows installed for the big-box stores to even consider selling, let alone stocking systems without an OS. Further, all of the major manufactures that supply systems to the big-box stores have agreements with Microsoft that require them to sell all systems with the current version of Windows installed. As to all of the installed software you find, that is another revenue stream for the manufacture that helps keep the retail cost down.

Bottom line, if there is a large enough retail market to be worth the effort, someone will fill it.

Chas

by jaqui

the current setup promotes a monopoly, in direct violation of the laws against such.

so I'm going to push for the laws to get chagned, requiring the hardware companies to sell systems bare metal only and the retailers to carry ALL options for the systems.

and to require software companies to provider versions of their products NATIVE to all operating systems.

by thechas

Good luck with your quest.

I think Don Quixote had less of a challenge than you have ahead of you.

Of course, we could go back to multiple versions of DOS and Basic interpreters that were not fully compatible.

Chas

by nexs

Complaining that they don't sell Linux in stores?

Because I'm sure that I remember correctly that it's 100% free-er by downloading it.

by seanferd

You buy or order your machine, and it comes with Windows pre-installed due to OEM deals.

But what kind of discount do you get when you say, "I don't want an OS, or your OEM software, or the craptastic trialware?"

Well, without the trialware, which only runs on Windows, there goes the cost paid by advertisers that covers the cost of the OS (partially, wholly, or beyond). Because they need that OS in order to serve up advertising.

I think that is at least part of the idea. Perhaps hiding driver specs or APIs is part of the problem, as described, as well.

by michael jay

and load the OS of your choice then sell the Windows license to someone who actually wants it?

That could work, but it probably breaks some law somewhere.

by nexs

But consider this:
You go to a store to buy a PC, and it's built specifically for the OS that's to be bundled with it.

Surely, buying the parts and building it yourself would cost less, give you more entertainment, and you could, then, put what ever craptastic advetware you like on it!

If you don't like building the PC yourself, you can always go to a computer store (where they build custom PCs) and have them do it, still saving money.

by jaqui

I'm complaining that they don't even offer an option for anything but microsoft nt.

by nexs

Could retail stores find by supplying freeware? There is none to get.

After all, the main objective for a company is to make money, and in paying someone to bundle/install freeware is simply not going to make money.

by charliespencer

May I remind you of Wal-mart's unsuccessful attempt to sell Linux boxes? How about Linux netbooks? Your monopoly case will go nowhere when the retailers point to those. "Hey, we've tried that recently and nobody wants them."

by nexs

I'm sure the black market will take it!

As long as you're in the black market, there are no laws. You're safe.
:p

by seanferd

And some of those licenses are locked to the specific machine, rendering them rather useless.

I think it would be sensible to be able to do that. And if OEM versions of Windows were just essentially retail copies with OEM-specific drivers and no others, that would be nice as well.

But content producers and distributors don't want you to do that, which is why every year or two someone tries to make selling your old video game or DVD illegal. They'd ban libraries, too, if they could.

by seanferd

I don't know for sure about building your own PC cheaper than an OEM box (I've heard arguments pro and coin on this since PCs came out), but you would certainly get exactly what you want.

I'm fairly aware of the options, I'm just guessing at what the bones of contention are for Jaqui in this particular case.

How about this one:
Hey, sell me a PC without Windows, and I won't ask you for support. And I swear, God as my witness, that I will run all your trialware under Wine at least once. :p (Not entirely sure what to expect when running a trial version of an AV under Wine here.) Or maybe, I'll run them in a Windows VM with a real copy of Windows. But I'm just getting sillier, if that is possible. :^0

by nexs

Isn't the whole point that there is an extra cost for software?

I can't possibly begin to believe that a software-less PC could cost more than a fat-ware loaded hunk.

If you were going to buy the OEM licensed PC, it wouldn't matter if you installed your own software. :p

by jaqui

it will be a fun one. :D
getting the politicos to contemplate the changes is the easy part
beating the industry lobbyists is the hard part.

by jaqui

heard of Red Hat Enterprise Linux [ $135 US per copy ] or Mandriva Power Pack or Suse Linux Enterpprise Desktop?
3 mainstream distros with boxed set install disks and corporate support.

openBSSD, install disks are $50.00 US per copy

there is a product for the retailers.

by seanferd

in a smallish office store, back before XP was out, I believe. So did CompUSA, IIRC, before they went downhill and I stopped looking in their shop.

This was before I realized one could get a decent distro free on the internet that didn't involve a fistful of floppy images for just a basic kernel install. I was totally looking in the wrong places, dude. :p

by nexs

But I've not had much to do with Linux.

What kind of inflation can be put on these software packages, though?

by seanferd

What kind of inflation can be put on these software packages, though?

I'm not sure what you are asking here, but I'll have a stab at it in advance.

If you mean, "What kind of markup can the retailer put on the software?", it may depend on what the market will bear, or there may be an agreement between the retailer and vendor. Is there a price differential between retail copies of Windows sold by different retailers? I don't even know.

If you mean, "How do you set the price of open source software", well, with RedHat at least, what you are paying for is support, not so much the software. You may also be paying for licensing of components not included in the free distribution, and you may also be getting Redhat-developed components which are not yet part of the free distribution. (Right now, I think RedHat only sells Enterprise-class stuff, whereas your average desktop is the free Fedora project stuff.)

edit: Just watch - NexS' meaning probably isn't covered by either guess. :p

by charliespencer

Despite what their ads may say, Apple makes personal computers. If you're going to limit this to EISA or "WIntel" systems, you should have said so up front.

Regardless, there's no one in this area that will sell you a 'bare metal' box with no OS. I'm sure the situation is different in larger cities or where the customer base is more computer literate.

Regarding your point about competitive products not being available - they are. You may have to take to the on-line shops to get a bare metal system, but they're certainly available. As some one else noted, Linux is both free and readily available. If consumers want to buy something else, that's their choice. It's not a retailer's job to educate them on the available alternatives.

by charliespencer

They were around for decades. I haven't seen a Mom and Pop in this area last more than three or four years.

As a public company, everyone knew CC was in trouble; there was plenty of warning. Mom and Pop's balance sheet isn't on the web, and they may close shop with no notice.

by jaqui

the competition bureau is set up to help failed business, not the consumer.

by jaqui

a computer manufacturer would need to formally complain to them about some anti-competitive business practise that is hurting their business in order for anything to be done.

by nexs

"If I were the distributor of Linux software for client computers, how many different ways could I make it more expensive?"

After all, people want things that are more expensive because, otherwise, they don't think they are getting value or a worthy product.

With the way Microsoft, and especially Apple, have been charging, (the general)people will think that anything less expensive products to be inferior.
It's just the nature of the beast.

P.S. Nah, Sean, you did pretty good-like.

by thechas

One option to consider when buying a new system is to immediately replace the hard drive and install the OS and software you want.

Store the OEM drive and stick it back in the system when you upgrade to make the system have a greater resale value.

That way, you have the savings of scale when you buy a retail system, but keep it customized for your needs.

Chas

by ansugisalas

Replace more than just the HDD... to make sure it's going to be any good.

Still need to figure out who makes killer casing-powersupply-ventilation comboes for notebooks though.

by mjwx

Do they exist in Canada.

I know it isn't exactly like buying a Dell but still, you can get a pre-built computer from the local supplier without any OS at all. If you want a high end machine it gets cheaper then Dell to get a custom built i7 or Phenom II with a high end graphics card.

They dont install Linux (OK, GNU/Linux for the pendants) but I'm sure if you paid them to they would.

Besides this, at least in Australia with Dell you have the choice on their high end workstations for Windows (XP/7/Server) or Red Hat (paid for, with a bit added on for Dell of course) and all their servers come with no OS.

I do hear you about big box retailers though, but over here, you have to be certifiably retarded (or desperate) to buy a PC from Bing Lee or Harvey Norman because of price alone.

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