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Car Modding?

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by rexrich2k

I of course know that car Engine Modding in its self is another thing. But I used it as an example only in that its one of something (still left) we can Mod in our garages/homes. And so that industry has been around long and has, Gone its path.

The visionaries of that time imagined massive engines with endless horsepower. But as we've seen, other forces find their way in and alter/refine the path of the home Modder.

Industry always starts out headlong into the Biggest and the Everything, but in the end finds its way back to the *simple*.

Sad but true, in the long run the Simpleton always wins.

by slayer_

Though it's largely electronic now.

A key difference is that the smaller engines are producing more power at a broader RPM range than those big V8's used to.

Heck I see those big old muscle cars drag race all the time. They get between 15 and 18 seconds.
The civics and lancers, etc, get 16 to 18 seconds with their 4 cylinder engines.
Grand caravan got 22 seconds
Class C econoline motor home got 28 seconds. Though that might have been the max it could count to.

Or how about this. How come my 1000 CC snowmobile produces 165 horsepower @ 10500 RPM's but cars struggle to get 150 out of 2000 CC's.
People have turbo charged the engine in my sled to over 300 horsepower.

If we tried to draw parallels with the computer world, that would be cell phones and laptops out powering desktops, and for less money, less electricity.
We know that doesn't happen and may never happen. So you can't compare cars to computers.

by nicknielsen

How does the torque compare between the two engines? Because that is what actually does the work.

by rexrich2k

I you're missing my point though. Im simply using cars as a metaphor, because they are broadly excepted, complex and have had time to solidify. But I didn't mean to get off topic.

Anyway car modding does still happen but the course its taken is very different than what the modders of the early days imagined. That was my point and you see that.

Back on point.. Let me say, There are many different parallels you can look back on to see where personal tech is going...

There are a few rules that invention uses to please the most people for broad usefulness, e.g. Sales. It has always worked this way;
1. make it easier. (Anyone can use it)
2. make it cost less. (Everyone can have one)
3. make it smaller. (Fits anywhere)
4. make it most efficient. (Does everything)

This will happen regardless of what We as modders want it to be.
In the long run every successful product ends up being (Fitted to the most people possible). The majority of people are ignorant and simple, so with that will go the *Personal Computer. In a word, Clinical.

So I see Cell phones being the way, toward the next 20 years. The thing I hate about that is I wont be able to get my fingers dirty and Hot Rod it up like I can now. But maybe like You and I are really are saying 'There will be a different way'.

You are visionary, where do you see the personal computer going in say 10~15~20 years?

Thanks for your good points and being in on the debate, btw.

by robo_dev

1) Powerful processors take a lot of power and generate a bunch of heat.
2) Cheap mass storage is not completely miniaturized just yet.

Today I can connect my iPhone to my HD TV via AppleTV and surf the web, watch movies, and even do some email.

But my phone only has 16 gigs of storage, while the 1T drive in my desktop is faster and cheaper. Also the processor on my desktop is a whole lot more powerful than my iphone.

My desktop is not the same size as my iPhone because:

- The Intel i7 processor won't fit in an iphone, (think of the power and heat issues)

- A cheap 1 Terabyte SSD small enough to solder to the iPhone motherboard does not exist.

In theory, if my phone had the same processing power and storage....with maybe a wireless keyboard or mouse attached, why would I need the big shiny metal box that is my desktop PC?

A laptop or tablet are kind of in-between,

Tomorrow's 'PC' may just be a docking station for your phone, tablet, or mini-laptop essentially.

YES, we can compare cars to computers.....look at the original high performance PC, the IBM PC cost about $1500, and my phone can run circles around it...heck the processor built into my TV, my car, or my portable GPS unit could smoke it in a drag race.

Today for $1500 you can buy a desktop PC with a nice monitor and printer and have $1000 left over, if you shop carefully.

The best Ford Mustang you could buy in 1982 was the 5.0 HO which put out a whopping 160 horsepower and did zero to sixty in 6.9 seconds.....today the BOSS 302 puts out 444 horsepower from the same 5.0 Liters, delivering something like four seconds 0-60.....but I digress.

by rexrich2k

Its funny too, sorta..

Back in the early 60s and before, a car was so 'Machine' like that a lot of society couldn't even drive one. They had no power steering, no auto or power anything and they broke down on the road a lot so you had to be a tough do it yourselfer to make good use of them. It wasn't policy that kept woman at home, it was transportation... But now I get all political, I digress too ;)

But wait, I have more craziness..

There are more reasons the Cell phone is the path to the power PC of choice.. PC tech has to get 1000x smaller and 10,000x smarter so they can put it on *The Chip* and inject it in us for the *Brave New World* scenario. :o

Nano Tech will force this scenario anyhow. Hacker types will be able to make mechanical viruses on the invisible level. They will program these viruses to invade the bodies of humans and such. They will attempt to take them over (Yes just like the Movies). You will need to have Super Computers in you programed to fight these invaders! What other choice do you have? Then there will be a real difference then between dying of natural causes and not. :D

Luckily I'll be dead by then anyway. Digression, not such a bad thing!
Now back to the topic... lol

by dogknees

There were people "modding" cars a long way before this. It started almost as soon as they were reasonably easy to afford. Back at the Model T stage or earlier.

by robo_dev

Several sheets of aluminum foil fashioned into a hat will block the gov-ment signals from getting to the brain. I never go anywhere without my wallet and skull wrapped in two layers of foil with a grounding strap, in case of lightning.. :) :)

by dogknees

You can get a PC for $1,500, but if you spend more, you get more and it lasts longer. Up until my last PC, I would spend $5,000 on one and in one case, it was still fast and useful after 6-7 years.

I started before they were common and you had to spend a lot to get the features you wanted. I don't see them going away, but we might be going back to the way things were. I'd be happy to spend this amount again if the products still exist.

by rexrich2k

When I was young I went to electronic surplus stores a lot and I remember seeing guys getting parts and IC's. I would ask them whatch ya buildin?? ..Oh a computer. ...Whats a Computer? this was like the later 70s lol

I think you're right though, it would go back to that kind of thing. shrug

by slayer_

I listed several.

If you are talking my snowmobile it's hard to say, the engine is stronger than all the drive components. It is very common to see clutches and belts explode under the pressure, so you can't really measure it.
But my sled will do 0 to 60 in an around 2-3 seconds, 10 seconds to reach the top speed of 200kph. Snow conditions affect traction and top speed.
Our drag race sled does the quarter mile (in summer) in 9.83 seconds. a 900 CC motor. Gas milage on the drag sled is about 4 gallons per mile, so not great lol.

by nicknielsen

The sled and the 2000cc car engine. I was just wondering about the stock torque ratings for the two of those.

by rexrich2k

When talking engine power output we need to remember that Torque and Horsepower are two different things. And they matter most when using an engine at its peak performance.

In short Torque is the low RPM power and HP is the high RPM power an engine produces in its power output curve.

Basically you trade one for the other.

The Crank;
A long Crank stroke produces more Torque, but a lower RPM.
A short stoke Crank allows more RPM and more HP, but produces less Torque.

Connecting Rods;
The length of the connecting rods are also important. The longer the rod the more RPM they will allow.

The Camshaft;
The more valve Lift a camshaft has the more air and fuel will be let in/out in by the engine.
The more valve lift Duration a camshaft has the more time, air and fuel is let in/out of the engine,
The trade off though is that using a big cam causes the combustion to have less time to develop at lower RPMs, so while allowing more HP they develops less Torque.

Turbo's & Superchargers;
Turbo's and Superchargers can be used to reclaim or enhance these parameters.
Turbo's typically work better in a High RPM environment, because they can Spin Up more of their own RPM's and produce higher cylinder pressures. While Superchargers take more power to operate they deliver positive cylinder pressure through the entire RPM power curve.

These are the very basics anyway.
-----------------------------------------
I suspect that a Snowmobile engine makes more power than a auto engine because its not hampered by Smog Regulation's. So they can run more fuel down in them.

No smog reg's, take a gander at your Top Fuel Dragster these days.. They are producing up to 10,000 HP out of just 500ci. That's like 1,200 HP per cylinder! lol ;)

by hal 9000

Which allows the incoming charge to help push the burnt charge out of the cylinder and allows better filling of the cylinder at high RPM as the gas has a higher velocity and hence more Kinetic Energy.

But here the snowmobile is likely to produce more HP per Liter of swept volume but at the same time have a smaller engine which allows much higher HP at the expense of a shorter engine life. For example I have a 9.15 cc motor here that is claimed to produce 1.5 HP which considerably exceeds the magic 100 HP per liter but that engine isn't going to last very long. I may get several hours running out of it which will be quite a lot considering that a 5 minute run will be an exceptionally long run.

No comment on the Force Feeding any Reciprocating Engine as the use of Turbo/Super chargers is a unnecessary complex addition for very little benefit. Of course if you are using 60 PSI Boost or higher it's worth while but for the common Boost pressures that are used in Production Engines of 5 to 8 PSI it is a unnecessary complication for little benefit. That's one of the things I was taught when I was working in Germany for the God of the Car Makers anyway. ;)

Though if anyone can design a engine that has a Piston Speed of approaching 186 feet per second it's most defiantly something I would want to play with. :^0

Col

by slayer_

So looking at the life and stats of a Yamaha R1 engine should give a good idea of the engines potential.

by hal 9000

Cars made from the Drop Belly Fuel Tanks of World War 11 Aircraft.

Or the Rods which where Open Wheeled overpowered under braked modifications of the very first Mass Production Line.

Sure they where not modified from new they had to first get a few years on them and be affordable to those who wanted to play with them. I loved the idea that in the 60's cars where unreliable and broke down all of the time. Back then people used to repair them themselves because that was cheaper, there was not the fixation on consuming at the expense of everything else and people looked at what was best for them and their families.

Maybe back then people where more resourceful and could cope with lights not turning on when you flicked a switch or water not coming out of a tap when you turned it, and they certainly didn't waste stuff or contribute to Landfill like we do today for the sake of simply consuming and having the latest and greatest bit of Kit this week.

They would back then use some fencing wire and tie food wraped in foil to the exhaust manifold and cook it as they drove to a picnic so you had something to eat when you arrived at your destination rather than starting a fire and cooking your own meals. Back then there where no shops at Picnic Sites and the reason you went there was exactly that you wanted to get away from things like that not be reliant on others to enjoy yourself.

The first car my father had did break down but only when it was involved in a collision but even then you tended to drive away from collisions and didn't demand a tow truck to tow your car away because it had a broken tail light or roadside assistance because you got a flat. You just pulled out the spare and put it on the car and continued driving. People even had rags in their cars so they could wipe their hands clean after changing a flat tire.

Today most people don't know how to open the bonnet let alone how to change a tire. Just recently I had one guy trying to pay me for changing a tire on his car after the rim broke and he blocked the driveway of a service station which I was trying to use.

Today cars are so fragile that if a light bulb blows some people believe that they have to be towed away and wait for the specialist repair. I personally like to say things like [i]They have run out of Blinker Fluid or they mistakenly used Headlight Fluid in the Tail Lights and caused the car to self destruct.[/i]

Col

by robo_dev

The official procedure for changing a headlamp on my vehicle first requires the removal of the front bumper.

The factory service manual for my other vehicle is four books each the size of a Manhattan phone book...the books retail for $895 USD and require careful reading since it has HV battery pack with an Invertor which outputs 650V to power one of three motor-generators (hybrid). Neither vehicle has actual gears in the transmission (CVTs) and there are pyrotechnic-based seat belt tensioners, as well as combined 13 airbags that do some exciting things in a crash.

Yes, I can and do change the oil and filter on both, and the brake pads are swapped just like they were on my 1971 Chevrolet Nova.

However I do remember trying to avoid hitting a stray dog on a wet road and nearly sliding into the ditch in a 1978 Buick....modern cars have more sophisticated lights so you see the dog further out, ABS and stability control, so you're less likely to lose control, and loads of inflatable explosive pillows to protect you if you do, plus of course you can then call the wrecker and surf the Internet while waiting for it to arrive :) :)

by hal 9000

If a Vehicle is properly Designed none of what you listed is needed or for that matter any of the Poor Handling should happen either.

Of course Cheap Production Models fail to comply with any decent Design Principals and are geared to the Lowest Common Denominator.

But maybe I'm just too cynical and worked way too long for lesser car makers who view safety as passive Design with Air Bags, Seat Belts and so on instead of Active Design which means that you can stuff that crap in but it's never going to be needed as the car will not put you into a position of requiring any of that to begin with.

Of course as we continue to make more fool proof cars the Universe is responding and improving the fools faster than we can make design changes to accommodate them.

Col [/cynicism]

by rexrich2k

Sorry dogknees but you need to read all of the earlier posts to see what I was talking about... HAL is on the right track ;)

by rexrich2k

Keep in mind though that aluminum foil wont fool those pesky Nano Robo's ! And the Gov knows what their looking at when they see that Grounding Strap ;) :)

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