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Fedora Updates vs Windows Updates

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I've got Fedora 7 running in a virtual machine. I started it up today and got a popup saying 41 updates were ready. I clicked for the updates to install and let them run. I then got a window saying I should reboot due to the updates, and did I want to do it now or later?

I've read plenty of comments berating Microsoft for "Patch Tuesday", and plenty more saying "I never have to reboot my Linux system." I personally am pleased by the getting updates to all my apps, not just the OS. I don't mind the occasional reboot, but maybe that's just my Windows background. What I don't understand is why some belittle MS for pushing updates and suggesting reboots when at least one Linux distribution does the same thing.

Is Fedora the only distribution that does this? If not, why take Redmond to task when Windows isn't the only OS that does it?

Please, no flames or unnecessary criticism of either OS or its users. Please stay on the topic of updates. Thanks well in advance.

47 replies

by neon samurai

I don't expect Fedora is that different from any other Distro but maybe it's updater is written to include reboots. What where the updates? Did Fedora update the kernel or some other major component?

I ask because kernel updates are about the only thing I've been required to reboot Mandriva for. In that case, it's simply because you have to halt the old kernel and restart everything off the new kernel (then uninstall the old kernel if it all works of course). Anything I've updated besides the kernel took without rebooting.

On the server side, I've rebooted manually after major deamon installs just to make sure everything starts of the init scripts. There still, it's never been a forced reboot or something I couldn't have also done by running the deamon's rc.d script but the reboot is temporarily easier.

Just to include the outlandishly possible; a version upgrade would force a reboot. Mind you, you'd notice if you where upgrading to a newer version of Fedora rather than simple package updates.

by charliespencer

The pop-up did present a list of package that it was going to update. Unfortunately, I don't know the names of many packages yet. Actually, about all I recognize are yum, pup, and pirut. I didn't recognize the first six or seven names in the window, and since I didn't expect to recognize any of the rest I didn't bother to scroll down. I can't tell if it's going to update the kernel, other major components, or the self-destruct mechanism; I don't know what any of them are called.

Say, what's that ticking? Funny, it seems to be getting faster...

<< smoke pours from system; computer room extinguishers go off; Palmetto ceases to care about worldly operating systems >>

by neon samurai

I don't remember if you've previously mentioned trying Mandriva or Suse. Mandriva may be worth cutting a VM for. They tend to write good graphic utils and the rpm manager (urpmi) is far better than the RH RMP.

"urpmi --auto-update" then selecting "y" is about as complicated as an update should get.

"Drakrpm" is the GUI package manager for Mandriva and will also list packages to be updated and give you a more detailed description.

I generally update manually from a terminal prompt getting a long list of barely recognizable packages. I think you'd have noticed a package called "kernel-#####" and that's realy the most major component I can think of.

Even with the kernel, it's ownly the kernel (vmlinuz binary) that needs the reboot to load the new version. I've completely rebuilt my driver modules without rebooting.

Outside of liveCD, my experience with different distros is a little lacking.
I've honestly not heard of a Linux update forcing a reboot before this. Anyone else out there familiar enough with Fedora to comment? Does Fedora like to reboot for some reason?

by charliespencer

I tried Suse but I don't think I had it on long enough to update. I don't remember why I didn't keep it. Since I don't anticipate loading Linux at home, I'm trying to stick with distros suited to a corporate IT environment. My understanding is those are RH / Fedora and Suse because of the available paid support system.

Note that this didn't force a reboot, at least not as I consider it. I had the option to not reboot if I didn't want to.

But you're missing my original question. Why do some people gripe about MS "Patch Tuesday" when Linux appears to do the same thing? Is there some difference I'm missing between Windows' patch system and the one in Fedora 7? They look similar enough to me to wonder why this is considered a failing in Windows. Click a pop-up, download updates, they install, reboot, lather, rinse, repeat.

NS, maybe you don't regard it as an issue. I certainly don't, but lots of other get a lot of mileage out of the "Patch Tuesday" topic.

by angel of death

Well, yes, both RedHat and Suse offer support, as does Mandriva actually. However, RedHat does not offer paid support for Fedora, only for the RedHat branded distro variants.

by charliespencer

I suspect we'll eventually go with RH for some infrastructure services we'll need supported. F7 is close enough to that for my self-learning experiments. If / when we actually start using it then we'll pay for professional training.

by neon samurai

First, the problem is comparing two incomparable situations.

For Windows, patches are a sign of deeper problems. Microsoft hides (and bashers point too) flaws under the marketing impression that a bigger number of found flaws means a crappier product.

Also, Windows flaws tend to be of a more serious nature. All software get's updated but we're not talking about Notepad version 2900.1.5 updating to Notepad version 2900.1.6. We're talking about flaw XYZ found to allow remote code execution or flaw WXY found to cause blue screen crashes.

Now, that's not to account for the Patch Tuesday?s distribution schedule. Some complain because patch releases are withheld for once a month but if a patch is critical enough then MS releases it and a regulated schedule serves there corporate customers; no one here is mistaking the home user for MS primary target customer.

For Linux distros (*nix OSS in general), patches are a sign of an active project community. FOSS celebrates patches as an increase in program evolution. They include new features, minor bug fixes, critical flaw and exploit patches and usually more of the earlier rather than later

Too keep in rhythm, Linux flaws tend to be a less severe issue. The design of the OS goes a long way to what vulnerability is and how much damage it can actually do. You may be able to get into a terminal but your still stuck with a user?s security level. In the majority of cases, your getting a later version of a program from it?s ongoing development process.

Here, Linux releases updates as soon as they are available. If it?s a flaw, it?s usually out as soon after discovery as possible depending on how active the respective project is. If your sticking to one distribution, there is a little lag while the Distro maintainer vett?s and includes the update into there repository. This s still working to release asap instead of working to release at next future update day.

So, a great deal of the conflict and gripe comes from two separate views of Patches trying to compare (usually denigrate) the other camp?s pet OS. In the MS/Apple world, patches are somehow a bad thing. People quickly throw around numbers of patches without the details of what the patch fixes; software update, minor bug flaw, major exploit flaw. In the FOSS world, patches are celebrated as neat new solutions to another problem some self motivated developer jumped on. The two are very different beasts and can not actually be compared directly on numbers of patches released on what time schedule.

Another great deal of conflict comes from the all mighty dollar. One pays an arm and a leg (or ?first taste? fee depending on emerging market) for the privilege of renting Windows or osX. When money is involved, suddenly things get blown out of proportion.

For Windows, one pays out money. The base OS is so much, the office suite so much more, virus scanning and other applications all add to the cost. Windows Updates only provide patches for the base OS and office suites though. That?s not to slam proprietary software; it?s simply that you?ll pay for each additional function you want to include. On the FOSS side, you may pay money for software that has proven itself worth the investment (it?s not for pay software that most OSS people dislike, its crappy quality software for pay).

The differences are not just financial, MS updates have a habit of breaking older versions of data file formats and such. I may not want to grade from Media Player 10 to the more end user restrictive Media Player 11 and if I do, will it still support all my efforts to manage media win Media Player 10? The updates are viewed as a subtle way of moving the end user forward into the next version of MS lock-in. (They created a DRM scheme then made the very next version of there media player incompatible in favor of the new flavor of DRM it included.. hm..). FOSS on the other hand, gives you updates for everything you have installed without guiding your decisions to select a forked project (if you consider WM old DRM forked too WM new DRM) and when you do get an update, you now it?s going to continue working with your existing data files and config.

In this regard, it?s still comparing to different creatures on unfair ground. With MS, you pay for each additional function set and while updates should be forthcoming, the seriousness of MS flaws tend to be much higher than such a license fee warrants. You get only the updates for MS personal products leaving you searching for all your third party software updates. FOSS updates, covering everything, install through the distribution package manager and provide the latest version of a program while rarely breaking your existing install.

Perhaps it comes down to people choosing to put far more importance on the number of patches without looking at the severity of a patch and not minding easily fetched updates for the complete system when they don?t feel like it?s corralling them into a future major version marketing campaign. Really, you?d need to look at each individual?s reasons for there opinion and judge weather it?s the same old claims based on valid reasons or the same old claims because that?s the rhetoric this week.

My personal feeling is that updates are good for any OS. If I see few updates or one large lump then I start watching for other signs of ongoing developer activity. If I see regular and frequent updates then I know the software is still evolving and improving. As for the severity of updates, I think some of the wholes left open in Windows are very questionable given there operating budget. The other issue is Microsoft and Apple?s habbit of keeping quiet about updates instead of showing good faith through a more open approach to software flaws. Neither wants to look weak in the eyes customers who don?t understand patch counts rather than look proactive in the eyes of the customer by saying ?this flaw was found and we?re busting our hump to get it fixed?. (In sort, Windows time to patch measured in days and months versus FOSS time to patch measured in hours in some cases.)

by charliespencer

I think that about sums this up, at least to my satisfaction. Thanks to everyone who has contributed to date, and to those who may wander through in the future. I especially want to thank everyone for keeping this on a rational level and not letting it devolve into another "us vs. them" circus.

by boxfiddler

affects me only at the home use level, but I frankly don't see any difference between Fedora rebooting after an update and XP rebooting after an update.

Running FC 6 still, and after its having been shut down for awhile I had a s**tload of updates when I brought her back online. And yes, I was notified that a reboot was needed. Being in the habit, I rebooted immediately. No biggie. She loads quickly and behaves nicely after updates, what more do I want? lol

And no, like you I don't know what most of them were, I am still learning. I might add, that if I knew more, I might like the option to pick and choose like I have with Windows. But maybe that already exists and I just set something up funny... Wouldn't be the first time.

by neon samurai

It's just like Windows Update. If you use the automatic updater it runs from the taskbar (for ease of description only). You see a popup that says "updates available". You click and they download.

I update from the command line so I type "urpmi --auto-update". It fetches the latest package lists, shows the newer packages it will download and asks Y/N. Kernels are on the "do not update" list.

In Windows, you can go to the Windows Update website manually and choose cutsom or automatic updates. Automatic is basically the same as the update taskbar thingy but you too the initial steps to open IE yourself. Custom let's you pick from the list of updates and only download the ones you want (all critical, no optional for me personally).

In Linux, you generaly open the GUI package manager (Synaptic, Drakrpm or whatever) and have the option of only displaying updates. The updates are all displayed defaulting to select or not selected depending on distro and you again pick what you want to update.

Both can run unassisted auto updates, minimally assisted auto updates or manual updates picked package by package.

I find updating from the command line very quick with no fuss outside of doing a kernel or VMware Server update by hand from time to time. In comparison, I always do a manual update through IE on Windows but there I have trust issues with MS auto updater choosing what I update and the company's business policies in general.

by jmgarvin

Dumb, I know, but it does. While normally it doesn't need to, you need to put the exclude in the yum.conf so that you won't get a new kernel every time you update.

by charliespencer

I'll gladly grant your knowledge exceeds mine, and I'll take your word that it's dumb. But why is it dumb? I would think that if a kernel upgrade was available that it would be the last thing I'd want to exclude. Isn't that upgrading the core of the OS? Aren't kernel upgrades fairly frequent, at least compared to Windows service packs and upgrades?

by jmgarvin

Kernel updates don't always fix bugs, but usually they are there to add features and to hooks for future functionality.

by daniel.muzrall

I've been toying with Fedora 6/7, Ubuntu, and Kubuntu for a while. They all push updates for the multitude of bundled, distro/build-specific packages, as well as for the kernel. Fedora does update the kernel fairly frequently, and as it's been pointed out, there are a number of reasons to go ahead with those kernel updates. Where it gets dumb...well, more like inconvenient...is when you've compiled a package from source (not one of the bundled, distro/build-specific packages), and the kernel update breaks part of that build. Not the end of the world, but it can certainly be inconvenient to have to recompile/reinstall a package that was working without a hitch before the kernel update.

Personally, I think pushing updates for the OS (whether for security, stability, or functionality reasons) AND installed applications/packages is a good thing for end users. As an IT professional, I'm always looking at a number of different sources for information on vulnerabilities, problems, fixes, patches, updates, and enhancements. It can be quite time consuming! Having my OS (Windows or Linux) centralize those fixes/patches/updates, and then letting me choose which ones to apply is a real time-saver...though I'll still be doing my due-diligence research before opting to install anything!

My opinion...take it for what it's worth!

Dan

by neon samurai

It's the true core of the OS and while most updates in minor versions are for fixes to the kernel, major version updates include all the new features and such.

The open nature of *nix means you can have software installed a bunch of different ways including compiling your own build against the current kernel header files. VMware Server builds VM hardware modules specific to your kernel so updating the Kernel means reconfiging VMware. An automatic Kernel update can break all your custom work.

For a prestine and purely repository managed Distro, a kernel update is nice because it keeps the end user on the latest (hopefully stable branch) OS core. In general though, it's the one thing admins and end users should check for manually and decided to upgrade; then you go ahead and do your enterprise wide Kernel update.

Frequency of kernel updates may depend more on the distro. Mandriva doesn't show a new Kernel version number every week. If your in Deb unstable or any of the other testing distros then you can expect more turnover.

by hlhowell9

Fedora only updates the kernel if there are changes to the kernel code. That will cause you to have to reboot, and if you have proprietary drivers installed you will have to reinstall them (typically ATI and Nvidia video bits).
No other updates I have installed have required a reboot.

If SELinux (a shield configuration to protect memory and certain aspects of the OS and applications from abuse) updates kernel related code it is concievable that it might require a reboot, but so far I haven't seen that.

Also remember that Fedora is continuously evolving. Ubuntu or Devian or some of the other flavors of Linux do not keep changing their released versions so often, and can therefore reduce the requirements for updates and reboots. Like most things Linux, Fedora is one of many choices.

Regards,
Les H

by dombenson

I can't really comment on Fedora in particular, although I'd say the previous post about default behaviour is a very good explanation for the restarts, as I only ran it briefly - we didn't entirely get on!
My linux boxes mostly run ubuntu/kubuntu, and there are certainly at least as many updates as my Win Vista/XP machines, although they tend not to require reboots. The difference that I would point to, as to why people complain about the Microsoft 'Patch Tuesday', is that in Linux, the updates are new builds of packages with additional functionality/fewer bugs and apply to all of the packages in the system - that is they originate from many distinct sources, each of which has its own update schedule. By contrast, the windows updates are (mainly) patches to plug security holes, and you most certainly do not get a newer build of windows from performing the update.
It isn't especially unreasonable, but it is the way it is, and I think the opinion of those who criticise MS is that you should a) write the software properly in the first place, and b) actually improve it when you update.

by cgbullock

When fedora is performing updates it is for pretty much all software on the system not just the operating system. If you ever look at the packages you are updating, you may be updating your irc client, your web browser, email client, fonts server, etc. I used to be a die hard linux fan but with my office running all Windows apps, I tend to use windows at home. I still have a Red Hat clone box that has my 'nix tools but thats a minimal install. the only time I have ever had to reboot a Linux server is for kernel updates that from a while back used to happen very infrequently.
Chris

by abidamin

I think you have a fair point. MS gets bashed on the updates for no logical reasons. Updates in general, and security updates in particular show that a company is alive to its responsibilities.

by n4aof1

Agreed, although it would be nicer if you could feel reasonably confident that the updates would actually fix the identified problems AND not create new problems (I can't speak for other companies but MS has at best a spotty record for the quality of its updates). And, of course, it would be nicer if the "Critical" updates weren't occasionally just marketing ploys (such as Windoze Genuine Disadvantage).

As for the Required Reboot issue, I don't mind updates that require a reboot so long as they give you a real choice to reboot later. I am really &*%^&*$&*%^ annoyed with some companies updates and new installs that either reboot without warning or without giving you a choice to reboot later.

Nearly as bad are Microsoft (and a few others) whose updates SAY you can reboot later, but keep a nag reminded running and pop up every few seconds asking to reboot the system (and, of course, with a default of Reboot Now that will be triggered if the popup happens to catch you typing a carriage return or clicking with a mouse set to home the pointer to the active window).

Once I select Reboot Later the sofware ought to just go away and leave me alone - or at least not pop up again until the next time a running program ends.

by sallitt

One of the greatest scams of all time, I find it very hard to trust anything Micro$oft says after that one...

by kilroy

Fedora (like all distros) usually only require a reboot when an update effects the kernel. These are rare and always for a good reason. Keep in mind that fedora is also updating all of your applications not just the OS. I setup a new fedora 7 box (about 2 months ago) and it required two reboots and has been running 24/7 since. Compare this to Microsoft which asks me to reboot after installing desktop applications.

by catseverywhere

It generally is not a good idea to automatically update the kernel.

Mandriva does not push kernel updates along with normal package updates. For e.g. throughout the life of Mandriva 2006, none of the kernel updates were of any effect to the base operation of the system. I recall they all related to what another post mentioned: new hooks for future functionality.

I can't recall the last time a kernel update was strictly a security issue.

Conversely, changing the kernel mid stream can cause unexpected problems with some packages. Been there, done that!

I used to think you needed the latest-greatest kernel underneath everything. Now I don't bother.

by catseverywhere

I was in the midst of a Mandriva install when I posted the last.

I just hit the updates, and lo, a new kernel IS being pushed. It says it's a USB subsystem bug fix.

Live, learn, eat crow...

by jwise

In my experience, selective installation of fixes caused quite a few problems. Down the road, some fix that you needed would prereq a fix you previously left out. So I favor wholesale application of fixes.

A very significant problem in this "24x7" world is the boot time (or IPL time from my mainframe world). It seems most OS's aren't very concerned about the length of time it takes from power-on to user processing. I did work in the TPF arena for a while, and that system is designed to come up very quickly. This attribute can change your philosophy for fixing many problems.

When the boot time is 30 seconds or less, outages become "slowdowns", and the maintenance problem is changed.

by Former member

Once we accept something as a best practice, we often have a hard time recognizing when it has outlived its practical usefulness.

Back in the Win9X days, it seemed like every update required a reboot. There was a valid reason at that point for mocking Windows vs. Linux when it came to updates.

Windows has improved that a great deal, but the new breed of 'haterz' cling tenaciously to the old complaints. They need a clear reason for their choice based on the obvious inferiority of the alternative. Patch and security arguments provide that, whereas the whole sharing with the community angle makes you sound like a hippie or a commie. ;)

by techie mom

We have Red Hat Enterprise Linux, and sometimes it seems there are frequent security updates to the kernel (named kernel-...) which require reboots.

The main reason Red Hat has so many updates is that they include updates for many non-OS and non-Red Hat packages. Whenever Mozilla comes out with a security update, I know that Red Hat will come out with patches to install, which I will push from Red Hat Network. No reboot required. Microsoft is patching only their own products, and they have patches each month which require reboots.

by neon samurai

I habitually run at update at the first login of each day and haven't seen anything new in the kernel packages since 7.14 upgraded from the 2007.1 default 7.13 kernel. I'll have to watch tonight and see if something pops up.

What Mandriva verison by the way? I've found a huge list of differences between Free DVD and Free LiveCD installs. This could by why my update config is different from yours.

A side note;

- Mandriva 2007.1 DVD if fantastic.

- Mandriva 2007.1 LiveCD (OneCD) is great as a liveCD but messy to base an install off.

- Mandriva 2007.1 MiniCD is good as an old ahrdware install but lacks complete Wifi support as a minimal base for growing an install off. (Wifi wast detected but required utilities files not installed)

I'd love to see them return to providing a complete CD install companion to the complete DVD install version for my non-DVD machines. I'm not complaining though; I always come back to Mandriva when I try something new.

by catseverywhere

I disagree completely with Neon Samurai's take on installing Mandriva.

It has always been a bug-ridden clunky and drawn out affair. But with the live CD you can "inoculate" the machine in 10-20 minutes, then download EVERYTHING you could ever ant afterward from the Mandriva mirrors.

Much faster, more fun and far less prone to bugs and other disaster.

by neon samurai

I use it at home on a work notebook I turn into a X dumb terminal outside of work hours. I can boot a Live into an X desktop then run everything from my workstation through ssh shells all without touching the notebook's hard drive (don't even mount it). I have to mention that out of five liveCD I threw at the notebook, Mandriva was the only one that recognize the wifi.

As an installer disk though, I can't abide by the "isntall everything under the sun" aproach. That disk installs complete package sets for Gnome and Enlightenment along with KDE and I just don't need all that installed. I install by putting a minimal OS on the hard drive then ad in packages as I need them to organically grow each distrobution based on day to day needs. Now, as a basic isntall disk for average end users Mandriva Live is a great build; it simply needs the addition of a custom install process (maybe an "install from CD" on that first blue Grub screen).

The bigger issue really is the small differences in configuration. If I build a system off the DVD install versus the same selection of packages (as best can be done) from the liveCD I still get two different configurations. With the DVD, OpenSSH-Server installs from one package and takes connections once the firewall port 22 is open. With the liveCD, OpenSSH-Server is installed and the firewall port is open but is it taking ssh client connections; nope. I'm sure I could have spent a week figuring out exactly what each change is and why but I just don't see how two like installs from the same Distro source disks should come out so differently.

I found a few other deal breaker differences when buildign a server recently and have since had to rebuild the server off the DVD. That's looking at the LiveCD as an install disk though; as a liveCD harddrive-less workstation it's fantastic.

I'm not looking to move away from Mandriva but I'd sure like to see three or four CD install of 2007.1 Free in the same spirit as the DVD install or at least a "Custom Install from CD" in the liveCD grub boot menu. It would let me spread the joy to a few of my older non-DVD systems.

by neon samurai

I'd guess Red Hat's rpm package manager if I had too. I know I made a mess of a system managing packages with rpm. It didn't (or still doesn't) manage package dependencies properly so you'd eventually start getting "requires [blah] backage" errors then errors for the newer [blah] package stating that the older version is required elswhere.

I'm not sure how yum works though dep and urpmi have given me no issues. In my urpmi world I can uninstall, selectively install or update whatever and all I've gotten so far is "libBlah packages required, install now also?"

As for OS boot times, that was me in the Dos days tweaking the config for fast boot and maximum memory program space. There is still a rabbid subculture of geeks who've moved to Linux but continue the challenge of a low boot time. I've read some fun stuff about parillel booting but haven't had the ambition to tune my rig to such a degree.

by charliespencer

I'm not in danger of losing any configuration work. I take a new "snapshot" before I take any action like updates.

If / when the next updates notification pops up, how can I tell if one of them is a kernel update. I don't know what any of the program file names are, and they often don't match the names on GUI shortcuts. (Somewhat irrelevant, I guess, since the kernel isn't going to have a shortcut anyway.)

I know how to read XP automatic update notices, and how to pick and choose the ones I want (usually all of them, but I look anyway). What should I be looking for the next time the nag pops up?

by neon samurai

This has really been very distrobution specific which is also a nice change.

Kernel updates should be packages starting "kernel-*". Check your graphic package manager. If it lets you search package names then search for "kernel" and see what comes up. I don't know exactly how Yum's GUI companion works thuogh.

With Mandriva kernel updates are on the no-auto-update list so they are ignored by "urpmi --auto-update". In drakrpm I can display only update packages or search "kernel" then read through what's available. If a newer kernel shows up then I read why and decided if it needs to be updated on my machines.

by sallitt

With linux, (I'm a *ubuntu person, so I speak from that background) not all updates are security patches. Many of the updates that you recieve are feature enhancements and product upgrades. The number of updates will increase dramatically if you subscribe to backports and dev repositories. Subscription to these reposistories will mean that you recieve packages and versions that are in development and test. The nature of open source is that it is dynamic and fast changing as there are so many contributors, this leads to a lot of updates. The main thing to keep in mind is that recieving 41 updates doesn't equate to 41 security holes, there may only be one or 2 security patches in there. The rest will be upgrades and feature enhancements..

by rkuhn040172

There's only one thing more powerful on this planet than the MS marketing machine and that's the Linux marketing machine.

According to the dark side :), Windows is bloated and Vista offers no new real features just more questionable security band-aids.

But Linux, on the other hand, isn't bloated even though most of its updates are feature enhancements and minor bug fixes.

Not to start a flame war (again), but I just find it comical and funny how while I thought your observations were correct, both camps come running in to support their cause and bash the other.

In reality, Windows and Linux have come very close to the number of patches (call them whatever you want: patches, updates, upgrades, feature enhancements, bug fixes) and neither is all that convenient but neither is the end of the world either.

Let's all face it, both are human creations and hence not perfect and therefore in constant need of "repair".

I, too, was floored a while back after mailing away for CD's for Ubuntu 6.06 LTS (I think that was it) and after installing it I needed over 100 "patches".

I found your initial observation to hit the nail on the head.

At the end of the day does any of this matter? Linux competition makes Windows better and Windows competition makes Linux better...sounds like a win-win to me for the consumer.

by charliespencer

"I just find it comical and funny how ... both camps come running in to support their cause and bash the other."

With one possible exception (not your post), this discussion has been bash-free. I'm hoping it stays that way.

by catseverywhere

As far as an update mechanism, urpmi is the 'industry standard' in my book.

My main beef with windows is you can't see the source! You really have no idea what's going on behind the scenes and what the "fixes" are really doing.

Vista is magnitudes worse in this dept. I shut off IPV6 on any Vista machine I can lay hands on.

Add to this MS recently admitted that they push "updates" that they DON'T TELL YOU ABOUT! What in God's name is up with that? These the "NSA updates" or what!? What are they hiding, other than the fact there may have been a vuln and they aren't going to let on?

Getting back to the liveCD install of Mandriva, I have never had any problems with samba, ssh, nfs (usually) or any other servers on an install that started with the live CD. Are you going to the mirrors and adding media? The packages you get off the mirrors are the top-shelf, one and the same everybody gets. They should work out of the box, and do for me...

cat

by neon samurai

I used it as an initial proof of concept for a web server. We couldn't get an SSH into the box though it connected out easily. Had the server deamon installed and ports open. A test VM did the same. It could also simply be my own perceptions from not starting with that select individual packages list at install though. Either way, I rebuild off the DVD and the config comes out clean with my root adjustments.

The LiveCD is still the best off duty OS for work notebooks though. It doesn't touch the internal drive, has a good basic program selection and gives me a complete X/ssh terminal. I add network repositories after the initial reboot then add on the programs I need to build up a final system.

by charliespencer

I understand some people want to modify their OS source code. Speaking strictly as a user, I think this is overrated as a Linux "selling point". I think it's a good thing, but how many OS users (Linux, Windows, OS X, whatever) have the skills to effectively change it, or even understand the code?

It's like getting the Chilton manual for your car included free. It's possible to learn how to do the work yourself, but how many drivers actually do?

by danlm

Then users. Truthfully, I can't think of a single reason. But if you have a specialized business(routers use Linux) that you would be running the OS on, you may very well want to modify the source to suit your requirements.

Dan

by sallitt

Yeah agree, I can't see that I would trust my own code over the work of others in the community who are far smarter than I. But if I was an OEM who was using the code for my NAS product for eg. then I could see it as a big selling point.

I think though the whole source code things does a couple of things that are positive:

1) The whole comfort thing, knowing you have access to the code is a security blanket for nerds out there.

2) The ability to compile that code to suit whichever distro you favour without the creator having to supply uptine number of binaries for each distro.

3) Having the source public allows for geeks to tinker with the code, learn how it works, and contribute.

The negative:

1) Compiling from source can be a real black art for the uninitiated. This is why I recon Ubuntu has taken off. Users can just tick what they want from the repositories without having to do the whole ./configure, make install, figure out what prerequisites I missed.

by freebird54

why anyone would 'bash' updates, or even the pushing of them. However, some do. Perhaps it is the dearth of trustable information that comes with the updates in the MS world?

I'm running Ubuntu, and have frequent updates appear (for me to choose when to install). Each of them comes with a desciption of what the update contains (what it will do for the thing being patched/updated/enhanced as the case may be) and also a capsule description of what the item being updated *IS*. For instance, it might inform you that the library being updated is the core support for font rendering, and that the fix will improve hinting algorithms on rotatable LCD screens....

It is nice to know what is being offered -although one could probably just say 'GO' without issues. Far different from getting WGA as an 'update' without any explanation as to its purposes (or advantages - which DO exist :) It just depends how much you want IE7!)

Beyond that difference (and the irritation that the (nearly always required) reboots can cause with Win systems) I can't think of a valid reason to vent about auto updates!

by deritchie

It is inherently going to have lots of patches, as it is the basis for later versions of RHEL. The difference between this and Windows is that Windows should be stable code, not development. So this is not exactly comparing apples to apples, is it?

by charliespencer

"So this is not exactly comparing apples to apples, is it?"

No, it isn't. That's why my original post included, "Is Fedora the only distribution that does this?"

Based on the responses I've received above, Fedora isn't the only distribution that does it. Since I don't think Ubuntu is a sandbox distro, we're back to "apples to apples", are we not?

My original question was why some Linux users use the phrase "Patch Tuesday" in a derogatory way, when some Linux distributions do something similar without being criticized.

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