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Metric System

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by thechas 1 view

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In another discussion, it was pointed out that the US is the only major country that still uses the "Imperial" system for common measurements.

The last effort to change the US over to the metric system died in the late 1970s.

So, aside from general arrogance, why are we still sticking with the "Imperial" system.

With the current rush to globalization, one would think that business would be pushing the metric system at us in a major way.

Look at all the computer parts that are in Imperial Measure:

Case screws
Drive screws
Floppy drives
Paper sizes
Monitor size

So, why are we holding on to a measurement system forced upon us by our Imperial Masters?

What can be done to start a grass-roots effort to switch to metric?

Great Brittan was able to overcome popular opinion, and make the switch, why can't we?

Chas

74 replies

by i_izhaut

it makes more sense and so some people in US will not like it.

Celsius is also more sensible. Dumb people pack snow around a thermoter and say it cold never get colder and call it zero and then say 100 is too hot, make marks and the \n call boiling 212. It has no scientific bas e or merit. 0=freezing and 100= boiling is superior and yet the cowboys still scream farenheit is better! HAHAHAHA

Obviously you hit nail precisly! It is arrogance!

by lumberjack

0=freezing, 100=boiling - mmmm
only at standard pressure (Boyle's Law?!!)
and only for pure water.

That said, the gist of what you say is right - degrees C is a lot easier! However Uk is still not completely metric - many shops still give prices in ? per Kilo and ? per lb by public demand. Distances on cars is still give as miles and petrol consumption in miles per gallon and not kilometers per litre!

At least the US always had a decent coinage system! I think it was more than coincidence that LSD was also the name for the original monetary system in the UK! Anyone remember guinees?
This was in addition to UK pounds and equaled 1 pound and 1 shilling, ie ?1.05 in todays notation!
Does horse racing still give out prize money in guinees - esp the 1000 and 2000 guinees?

by guruofdos

Yes we DO still buy our beer in pints and calibrate road distances in miles, but we have been buying fuel by the litre for over 10 years and all stores now display prices and weights in metric units. The price per pound is now only given for information purposes...after all we went metric in 1971, but there are a lot more people around from the pre-metric era!

What is also at issue with the American Imperial system is that even some of their Imperial measures are wrong! Especially fluid measures.

An 'Imperial Pint' is 20 fluid ounces, but in the US, a 'pint' is only 16 fluid ounces. I went drinking in a bar in NY state and couldn't believe that after 11 pint's of Fosters I was still standing...until I realised the beer was weaker and the pint was 20% smaller!

An Imperial gallon is 8 Imperial pints, or 4.5456 litres if you want to compare to metric (and the correct term IS litre, not LITER as I have seen it spelled often over there). A US Gallon is about 3.8 or so litres.

So considering your nation's desire to be independent from Britain back in 1776, you still hang on to the Imperial system (so-called because of the British Empire) albeit that you do give short measures in pubs!

As far as case screws etc for computers go...yes most case screws are UNC (Imperial) and drives are measured in inches...because the standard evolved from IBM....who being American are still in the dark ages as far as measurements go.

Funny how IDE CD ROMS and most other 5.25" devices use M3 (metric) screws for mounting though?!!! Ah....I get it now....the CD is a European invention (Philips hold the patents) and of course it had to fit a 5.25" bay in an IBM clone....but the Europeans couldn't find any manufacturers over here still using Imperial taps and dies so they HAD to use metric fasteners!

Just out of interest, all metric measurements have to comply with standards set by the International Standards Organisation (ISO)...and aren't they headquartered in the USA???

A classic case of 'do as we say, not as we do'...

by lumberjack

0=freezing, 100=boiling - mmmm
only at standard pressure (Boyle's Law?!!)
and only for pure water.

That said, the gist of what you say is right - degrees C is a lot easier! However Uk is still not completely metric - many shops still give prices in ? per Kilo and ? per lb by public demand. Distances on cars is still give as miles and petrol consumption in miles per gallon and not kilometers per litre!

At least the US always had a decent coinage system! I think it was more than coincidence that LSD was also the name for the original monetary system in the UK! Anyone remember guinees?
This was in addition to UK pounds and equaled 1 pound and 1 shilling, ie ?1.05 in todays notation!
Does horse racing still give out prize money in guinees - esp the 1000 and 2000 guinees?

by john_wills

The guinea as one pund plus one shilling came about by accident. Probably a lot of ancient coin ratios did. The guinea coin was struck of gold from Guinea to be worth one pound, i.e. a pound of silver. Then the trade ratio of gold and silver changed, and the coin came to be worth a twentieth more in terms of silver, which was the standard (hence the sobriquet "sterling"). Shows the silliness of using a ware as money, or at least of using two wares. After the striking of new pound coins at the new weight, the guinea was retained as a unit of account by professionals to sound a little old-fashioned and, more important, to charge 5% more than they seemed to be charging.

by mrbill-

But you still drive on the wrong side of the road.

Yes we do some things different over here, every nation does. That is what makes each nation unique. If everyone was the same who decides what that same is?

by john_wills

Mr Bill is really asking a question about something more general. There are many things legally the same in Texas, California and New York. Who decides these samenesses? Not Texas, or California or New York but the various branches of the U.S. government. Similarly, taking the International Organization for Standardization as an entity of the world government, not any component of the world but an office of the world as a whole makes the decision as to just what constitutes Cobol 85 or ISO 9000, for example.

by jim phelps

I really hated to see it a few years ago when the British adopted the metric system, throwing out centuries of tradition and literature in the process.

Think about it: where else could you find such literary terms used in real life? things like farthing, pound, shilling, pence, and many more examples.

Even though it made economic sense, life is not all about money. We need to have some roots and traditions.

by maxwell edison

Top 10 reasons to avoid using the metric system:

10. What would we do with all those 9/16 inch wrenches?

9. A football player having a 91.4 meter rushing performance in a game? How weird is that?

8. Because "penny wise, pound foolish" would become "penny wise 0.4536 kilogram foolish".

7. The Indianapolis 805 just doesn't have the same ring to it.

6. What's this meter square thing? I wanna' keep my 10 acres.

5. I'd probably get short-changed when they switch from the 1 ounce shot glass.

4. Centimeter - Centigrade - Centipede - it's all too confusing.

3. After all these years, I finally learned how to spell Fahrenheit.

2. So what if the rest of the world uses it. Give them an inch and they'll take 1.6 kilometers.

1. Because the metric system was invented in FRANCE.

by deadly ernest

Penny wise pound foolish actually refers to
English currency a penny being the smallest whole valeu and a pound being the basic major value, changed to the USA metric currency (see they did get you a bit) ir would be cent wise and two dollars foolish.

BTW cent is derived from the French word for one hundredth becuase it is one hundredth of a dollar.

The metric system was orignially invented by the ancient druids and partially used by the Romans who then took it to France.

by dc guy

Metric system users don't measure farmland in square meters any more than you would measure it in square feet. Your ten acres equal 4 hectares.

by john_wills

A metric is a way of measuring something. That is why we talk of metrics for software efficiency and the like. There is an International metric system, invented in France but adopted there rather late; it has been the international standard since the late 19th Century; and there are other metric systems, including the English metric system with its Imperial and U.S. variants. The U.S. variant is by U.S. law defined, since some time in the 1870s I think, in terms of the International metric system, e.g. an inch is by U.S. law 25.4 mm. An Imperial inch was, until the 1960s, 25.401 mm, not by definition but by measurement of the standard Imperial inch at the Bureau of Weights and Measures. During the 1960s the Imperial inch was redefined and is now the same as the U.S. inch.

by maxwell edison

England and America are two countries separated by the same language.

?George Bernard Shaw

I read somewhere (a long time ago) that it was Noah Webster's intentional decision to change many of the words' spelling and pronunciation just to be different from the British (color instead of colour, for example), as well as to improve the overall English language, of course.

by cass.harley

I am an aussie, so really can't help out. We already use the metric system, and I only know that 4 miles is roughly 6km because we used to live at a place known as the '4 mile' a set of petrol stations 4 miles out of town. Except the signs all said 6km.....

However, I do applaud any grass roots effort to make a change for the better.

Next we will all be switching to DVORAK keyboards....

by jardinier

The metric system was introduced in 1966, the year I got married (not a good omen). However we have adapted well enough, but a couple of Imperial measurements have remained. When the police stated that a 180 cm suspect was seen behaving in a suspicious manner, well of course the general public didn't know whether to look for a pigmy or a giant. So the Imperial measurement has stuck for the height of humans, and even the younger generation use it. In this one instance it is a convenient measurement: a person under 5 feet is rather small, and a person over 6 feet is rather tall.
Because I studied physics at achool (all metric measurements) I guess it was easier for me to adjust than those who had never encountered the system at all.
I don't know why they called centigrade celsius, but at least it has a logical basis. Fahrenheit is a sloppy system, as it is based on variable standards. Zero degrees Fahrenheit was the coldest temperature that could be created at the time (salt mixed with ice) and 100 degrees F was supposed to be the temperature of the human body, which was wrong anyway.

There are still a few anomolies lingering in Australia. TV screens are measured in centimetres, while computer monitors are measured in inches. And I would say that people who grew up in the Imperial era, still haven't a clue as to the interpretation of many basic units of measurement. I have to use a slide rule to work out the fuel economy of my car, because X litres per 100 km tells me nothing. But by the time my generation dies out, apart from people's heights, I think everyone will be thinking metric across the board.

By the way -- and please correct me if I am wrong -- I understand that the decimal system originated in India and was brought to Europe by Islamic scholars in the middle ages.

Anyway for you Fahrenheitists, if the temperature is less than 15 degrees celsius you'll be feeling somewhat chilly, and if it rises above 35 degrees celsius, then a swim in the ocean is much more appealing than strenuous work.

And that bulge in your trousers when a spunky chick walks by could be 15 to 18 cms. Now wouldn't that be something in inches!

by stuart_at_oz

Hmmm, I was born in Aust. in '66 (and I feel old some days...) so I was a metric baby, but I still think in feet for height (me at 6'2").

I also have an engineering background, so I tend to think in millimetres - that's 1/1000 of a metre for you imperial stick in the muds :-). Even the New Aussie parliament house finished in 1988 was measured in millimetres, even the height above sea level!

Monitors are still measures in inches, because most (all?) of our monitors are imported, so we get the same Dell monitors as USA (allowing for voltage changes)

TV's are in centimetres, as we use the PAL standard from Europe, who use centimetres. (Would we use millimetres if left to our own devices?)

Such are the joys of being penal colony!

Stu
(who has at least one ancestor who wasn't a convict...)

by cass.harley

I brought this argument up in highschool. We had just learnt about half-rates (for errors) in Physics, and our chemistry teacher had been discussing why we still use inches instead of centimeters when we refered to a persons height.

I mentioned the half rate.
For those that do not know (and as far as my rusty high school physics will remember).The half rate refers to the margin for error with regard to the unit of measurement.
e.g if I say that a person is 180cm, then with regard to the half rate margin for error, I am admitting that the person could be anywhere between 179.5cm and 180.5cm. If I were to say that a person was 2metres, then I am really admitting that the person could be anywhere between 1.5m and 2.5m.
With this in mind, it can be seen why feet and inches are preferable. Ie if I say I am 6?4?, I have an entire half an inch error either side?

Possible not the only explanation, however it made my chemistry teacher smile (and ended the debate).

by deadly ernest

Ther switch to decimal currency occurred in 1966 we went from pounds/shillings pence to dollars and cents. We had been learning both metric and imperial equivalents in schools since 1964. But the official switch to metric measurements did not occur until the early 1970's, 1972 I think.

I don't know why they did not switch over earlier but that is how it happened. Some said it was to allow people to get use to the decimal currency before chnaging everything else.

Many people still use feet and inches in height simply because the most common places that they are used are in the military and the police (two of the most conservative professions that every existed). But the official records and statements have been metric since then.

Monitors are still measured in inches for two reasons:

The USA influence on computing matters and to make the differentiation between a TV and a monitor a bit easier on the uninitiated.

by deadly ernest

Sorry Chas old boy, but they already do have you on metrics, you just don't know it.

Many of the computer components etc are actually done in metric sizes but they tell you guys in the USA the imperial equivalent size. Every metric item has an imperial equivalent and they just allow you guys to think it ain't changed.

Some computer gear is still based on the physical construction restrictions of the early technology but that is fast changing now.

There is a slight difference between the sizes of A4 and Quarto paper, but I have seen documents from USA companies attached to imports that were actually in A4. When I next spoke to the shipper I asked how long they had been using A4 he told me that it was the new 'extra wide' quarto and went through the printers easier than the standard quarto.

Ah a rose by any other name?

Why does the USA not swict, simple to many bloody stupid and dumb hicks who could not handle any change. How else do you explain the continued existence of the KKKK and similar groups on all sides of the racial divide.

by guruofdos

Sorry....your logic does not follow! If you were exactly six feet tall, your half-rate would be 3ft to 9 ft!

You are quoting a unit AND a division of that unit (feet and inches) and are quoting a sub rate based on the sub-unit. Metres have a sub-unit centimteres therefore to be logically consistent the half rate would be +/- 0.5cm! So a 2m tall person would be between 1.995m and 2.005m, not 1.5 and 2.5m!

by cass.harley

Although I agree that overall my reasoning for why we may still be using feet and inches for height is faulty, my maths is not.

The half rate is defined by the smallest unit of measurment.

therefore if I said 6ft, then 5.5-6.5ft is the room for error.

If I said 4ft2inches then 4ft 1.5inches - 4ft 2.5inches is the room for error.

Likewise if I said 100cm then 99.5-100.5 is the room for error.

However if I said 100.5 then 100.45-100.55 is the room for error.

by mediator

If you were exactly six feet tall, your half-rate would be 5'6" to 6'6" !!!!

A 2m tall person (no sub-units quoted) would be between 1.5m and 2.5m!

A 2.0m tall person (sub-units quoted) would be between 1.95m and 2.05m! Thats a variation of about 4 inches, not too much and not too little for general purposes. (Aaah, the little used decimetre)

by mrbill-

Fahrenheit should be more accurate, there are 180 degrees between freezing and boiling points of H2O, and Centigrade/Celsius only has 100. But then 1 metre has 100 centemetres where 1 yard (closes equivalent in distance) has 36 inches. Going 100Kph sounds fast but going 70Mph is faster. I?m so confused!

I?m also an old dog and it is hard to learn new tricks.

by thechas

Your comment struck a memory chord.

Back when the US was working toward switching to the metric system, we had the 55 MPH national speed limit.

The plan for a metric speed being pushed by the safety lobby was for 80 KPH or slower in order to SAVE more lives.

The impending reduction in what was by then a very unpopular speed limit may have been the proverbial straw that broke the camels back.

Chas

by oz_media

Normally 80kmph is a suburban street driving speed. Highways are 100-120kmph (sounds pretty fast)which I think equates to around 60 MPH?

Probably why Canadians get so many tickets when driving in the USA. We're used to flying down the highway and slowing SLIGHTLY in the city. Posted city speeds are around 50-80Kmph but drivers average 80-100kmph. the highways, you just pedal the floor and pretend you're on the autobahn. On the highway to my house I average 110-140kmph. They've just rebuilt the North Island highway so I should up those figures soon.

On my bike, there's no speed limit to be seen. Or maybe, I'm just going too fast to see the signs.

by jimhm

I don't know why we stay and will not change to the Metric system - but like others say ...

But you're talking re-educating a load of stick in the mud's - old timers - You have to start in grade school teaching the metric system. Then move to the speed-limit signs - change mile posts to meter posts - slowly introduce it into the culture - and into everyday life...

Otherwise - why change... Just for change sake. Even most cars still use the SAE system 9/16's ...

To move a mountain - start by moving one pebble at a time .. or something like that... it would be a long process - Has the EURO been completely integrated? Or do you still have Pounds / Frans

by cactus pete

I think that's why the US hasn't changed... Why spend the money? We'd have an immediate [at least] short term hit on the pocket book. No one [of significant enough significance] would benefit financially in the short run.

It's all about the money, not the measurement.

by jimhm

Excellent point - it would cost billions to retool things - Hum didn't think of it that way - great point

by deadly ernest

The problems the UK had with metrification were mostly due to the way it was done. All at once over a short period.

In Aust the govt decision was made in the early 1960's, then the schools started teaching the metric systems along with the imperial systems. Then in 1966 the Currency was changed from pounds shillings and pence to dollars and cents. One of the leading factors in this change at that time was the need for the Mint to replace a lot of expensive machinery to make notes and coins and they wanted the currencies to be clearly different, thus the 'early' move in the currency change.

Then in the early 1970's (about 1972 / 1974) the official switch to metric weights measures etc occured. For about 10 years students had been trained in both systems and fluent in both, thus the convertion was relatively easy for business as the juniors who did most of the scut work were fully trained. The oldtimers had problems, but that was going to happen whenever it was done. Now it is second nature to everyone but use dinosaurs.

by lumberjack

In answer to your question.
Not all countries in the EEc agreed to adopt the Euro,
France, germany spain (to name 3) did - and as such the Franc, Mark and Peseta have all gone - being replaced by Euros.
The UK and denmark opted out of the Euro and have retained pounds and krone respectively.

The interessting thing is - these two countries have not seen any increase in costs as a result. While I did notice a hefty increase in spain's touristy spots prices - as cafe owners ave finally realised how much cheaper thier prices were in contrast to those in France and Germany etc.

The booze cruises are not as profitable as they were! (still profitable though!)

by oz_media

I think the Euro not catching on in England is the same as expecting American's to adopt the Canadian dollar, WHY ?

At least a pound is worth something.

by oz_media

I've actually lived across both systems all my life. In England, I was taught metric, in Canada, I learned their version of metric and as for America, I just wish they used more Robertson screws instead of thos useless Phillips things.

When I say Canada has their own version, this is probaly because of my trade experience. I have Imperial micrometers and Vernier Calipers. MOST of the rebuild and repair manuals are graded in 1000th's of an inch with CONVENIENT conversion charts in the cover. If I was fixing someone's car and cross referenced the measurements, it wouldn't be too fair on the owner's pocket book.

When working on my house or motorhome, I always build in imperial. I can see an 1 3/4" and know it well, however if I saw that same span It would take me longer to decide if it was 5 CM or whatever. I have about $8000.00 invested in metric tools and I'll tell you, they're still very shiny!

As for temperature, I never understood the Imperial system but celcius makes sense. 100 degrees boils water, 0 freezes it, if water is gonna boil, it's damn hot! If water freezes, it's damn cold, couldn't get any simpler.

When it comes to bouyancy, I again revert to Imperial measurements though.

So, I'm really torn between the two, as most mechanics and carpenters are. Maybe we could start a TRADE system, that combines the Metric and Imperial systems, BUT WE DEFINATELY NEED YOU TO DUMP THE USELESS PHILLIPS SCREWS!!!!!
They SUCK!! Not very torque friendly, weak heads and a couple of sizes that generally get stripped because nobody has the patience to keep swapping screwdrivers. (Note: I know that Robertson screws come in various sizes but you can't get one to fit another. A Robertson that is one size too small will simply turn in the hole instead of stripping the screw head.

by lordinfidel

What sounds better?

I have a 7 inch penis.

Or I have a 128 mm penis(have no idea what the conversion is, and I don't really care, i'm ignorant when it comes to that).

While the 128mm sounds big and all.
The mm just sounds weird and just does not work for Porn. Besides, the mm is a small unit of measurement.

Basically, americans like myself just need everything big and overbearing Europeans like things small and pretty.

And I like being and Imperialist bastard.

by cactus pete

128mm would be about 5 inches. [Not that there's anything wrong with that...]

For anyone who, perhaps from time to time feels they could benefit from it, there is a handy little website for conversions: convert-me.com.

by oz_media

"Your living in a dictatorship!
A self effatuating autocracy thet perpetuates the social and economic classes in your socciety..."

Sorry, I just can't get it out of my head. I watched MP's Holy Grail over the weekend and realized I still know the script better than my Netware texts.

BUM, oooops sorry, you can edit that out can't you?!

by guruofdos

In a recent sex survey conducted in 49 countries worldwide, Americans were found to have an average penis length (when erect) of approximately 5 inches, or 128mm. Smaller than the majority of Africans by 2 to 3 inches....lucky there were several thousand Afro- Americans in the survey to get the averages up.

I live in a metric world and have done since I was four, but I grew up understanding Imperial measures because my parent's generation still use them. Britain changed in 1971, so that means we've been metric for 32 years, but I still understand measurement concepts from pre-71. I know how tall I am in both measurements, I can judge the weather in C and F, and know my weight in both kilos and stone.

My American teenage stepchildren however have no basic understanding of the Imperial to metric ratios. My 14 year old stepdaughter had a homework assignment over the holidays....count the blades of grass in a 100 square centimetre patch of lawn...and she had to phone me from New York to get me to explain metric to her and how to read it on a ruler!

What really concerns me though is when she gets old enough to find out what 'slipping a length' really means! But seriously....'penis jokes' only sound funny in Imperial....which is why the Brits still use inches when we use cm, mm or m for all other measurements.

Like....why do elephants have 4 feet? Because they'd look stupid with only 6 inches. 150mm doesn't really work, does it!

by lordinfidel

I'm above average....

I knew my wife has been messing with my head all of these years. (no pun intended)

by generalist

Instead of using millimeters, consider using centimeters. Millimeters are much too small a unit of measure for such things.

Of course, you could always use angstroms.

by thechas

With many thanks to the Nixon administration and the Arab oil cartel, the US had a federally mandated speed limit of 55 MPH for ALL expressways and rural roads. If memory serves me correctly, this was made law in 1974.

It stayed the law for around 20 years as the safety lobby held up the reduced death toll from traffic accidents as proof that the slower speed saved lives.
Never mind, that after the 2 years of the oil crisis, the 55MPH speed limit was the most violated law ever!

A very negative benefit of the 55 MPH speed limit over-staying it's usefulness is that the American driver learned that traffic law enforcement was not anywhere near as possible as we had been duped into believing.

I blame the safety lobby, the Nixon Administration, and the "Law of Unintended Consequences" for the lawless nature of the US roadways.
But, I digress.

Now, speed limits are as follows: (at least in Michigan)
Unmarked city streets:
25 MPH 40 KPH
Unmarked Rural roads:
55 MPH 88 KPH
Rural Expressways, as marked:
70 MPH 112 KPH
Urban (city) Expressways:
55 MPH

Then, there is the "Basic Speed Law"
that states you must not drive at speeds to fast for conditions.
You can be driving at 10 MPH under the posted limit, and still get a speeding ticket if a law officer determines that you were traveling at speeds to fast for conditions.
Like most tickets for poor driving skills, this citation is usually handed out after an accident.

Contrary to popular belief, speeding tickets do not produce revenue for most police agencies in Michigan.
A large portion of the fine goes to the public library system.

Chas

by oz_media

"A large portion of the fine goes to the public library system."

Wow, something productive from the government, ya gotta like that!

Thanks for the info Chas, have a good one.
OM

by stuart_at_oz

Hmm, we may be a little better of than we thought...

Typical highway/country limit - 100Km/h (~66mph)

Also a national limit of 100km/h on the open road unless signposted otherwise.....

Expressway/Tollway (good quality, multi lane, dual carrageway) - 110 km/h (~72mph?)

Inter-urban or main roads in cities - 80km/h (~50mph)

suburban streets - 60km/h and many places 50km/h when you leave the main arterial streets in the suburb (~42mph & ~34mph?)

school zones between 8am and 4pm - 40km/h (~ 26mph?)

BUT... in the Northern Territory, (which is mostly dry open plains - not QUITE a desert) they don't have a upper limit on the open road (Or didn't anyway...). They tried to organise a "cannonball run" in NT several years ago due to the lack of upper limit, ended with a journalist getting wiped out by an entrant who misjudged the corner (first one in 100km). I even have a stubby holder at home from Toshiba who where sponsoring the event! (Stubby = small beer bottle for our international audience)

Stu

by rick_from_bc

Living in Vancouver, BC, Canada on the west coast, and
travelling down to Bellingham, Washington, USA is a 1 hour
drive and anywhere from a 2-minute to 72-minute wait at
the border. In Canada, our portion of highway is 100 kph,
or about 60 mph; If I multiply the kph by 6, I come pretty
close to the mph figure. On the speedometer, each 5 kph
division comes close to a 3 mph increase/decrease in
speed.
Conversely, if I divide the mph by 6, I come reasonably
close to the kph speed: 70 mph approximates 115 - 120
kph, and since that is a 3 mph difference, it approximates
69-72 mph. close enough to keep me up with traffic, not
so fast I risk a ticket.

In Canada, we screwed up during the conversion process.
We allowed the display of both systems in grocery shops --
and we still do! Way wrong. If I were in charge (If I ruled the
world ...) we would have had about a 12-month overlap,
then off with the Imperial. It would have been a much faster
conversion, with fewer problems.

As an aside, on a really practical level: as I get to the point
where I have to watch what I eat, and how much, the metric
system is SO much easier. This factor alone would be
enough to make us older (hence, less mentally agile)
citizens activley welcome metric measure.

by cactus pete

Ooo, maybe your latest edition to this world shares Chas' birthday :)

For any who might not have noticed, check out the high points questions in Q&A.

by guruofdos

what a pun!

Nice one! Having an American wife gives me a lot of insight! I'm hubby number 4 (don't ask!) and her previous three husbands were Americans and I won't repeat her comments!

by schwit

The US uses a 'stupid'(see illogical) date format.
month/day/year? Puhleaze! Try counting your money or anything else by putting the largest quantity to the right with the smallest in the middle.

year/month/day is the logical format. 2003.09.08

Next we can discusss am and pm.

by guruofdos

Is the International Date Format, day-month-year. This is the system that the rest of the world uses. The biggest world headline in the last few years became known as 9/11. Only in America! We all referred to it as 11th of September, or 11/9.

by thechas

We use the month day year format for the date because we were all required to use that format in school.

It is entrenched in US business writing classes.

It's also the way it is in our BIOS date section.

Keep in mind that the US does not make decisions based on logic.

Aside from Maxwell, and a few others, most US citizens have NO (perceived) use for logic and cannot debate in any logical fashion.

Form is placed in a much higher regard than substance.

Chas

by dc guy

The most logical format is year-month-day. Highest-order digit first. I find myself using that format in file names so they sort in the correct sequence. Otherwise Statusreport 01012003 sorts BEFORE Statusreport 12312002. My friends in eastern Europe all write it that way. Perhaps it was a Soviet thing. They often write addresses the same way: Country, city, zone/zip, street, house number. That's the way I would look their house up in a map index!

by oz_media

I think Drug dealers have combined both the Imperial and metric systems.

Small amounts of coke are sold in Grams, yet 3.5 Grams sells as an 1/8 ounce. Then you go to a quarter pound, half pund and finally a Kilo?

Gram to Kilo and everything Imperial in between.

Is this considered your Metric on Drugs?

by ralphberger

Any system of measurement, like any system of counting, is completely arbitrary.

As someone famously once said: "There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand the binary system and those who don't."

by oz_media

I think that's the third time I've seen the binary quote here in the past few months.

Ok, I get it,10(in binary)= 2 for those who don't get it.

Saying that measurement is arbitrary is like saying language is arbitrary. Without it, we couldn't communicate or relate ideas. I'd like to see the first skysraper without consistent measurements used in the blueprints.

by cpayson

"Saying that measurement is arbitrary is like saying language is arbitrary. Without it, we couldn't communicate or relate ideas. I'd like to see the first skysraper without consistent measurements used in the blueprints."

Actually it really is arbitrary. All that really matters (as was so gracefully pointed out above) is per project consistency.

by thechas

Au' Contraire,

While most measurement systems throughout history have been truly arbitrary systems, the metric system is NOT!!!

The metric system is based on scientific principals, chemical constants, and physical constants.

All measures in the metric system are interrelated.

Chas

by ralphberger

To properly appreciate just how arbitrary the metric system is in its origins, read "The Measure of All Things: The Seven-Year Odyssey and Hidden Error That Transformed the World" by Ken Alder (Free Press, 10/1/2002) which relates the history of the expeditions of Jean-Baptiste-Joseph Delambre and scrupulous Pierre-Francois-Andre Mechain who set out from Paris to calculate the length of the metre.

by remaind

Isn't the "American" system based on the sizes of average body parts and other observations about distances? like an Inch is about the size of the second finger joint on your index finger and a foot is about the size of your foot (duh) or arm (which are roughly the same length) and a mile is short for "mille pacem" or a thousand paces which was a Latin Idiom. I'm not really sure where the volume or weight measurements came from, however but I have a feeling that it is from a simlar background.

In other words, the "american" system is probably the least arbitrary, but at the same time very complicated to make conversions and in general difficult to work with in modern society where we have more efficient tools to measure things with than our fingers and feet.

by pmpsicle

Interesting, if silly discussion, you chaps are having.

Just a couple of minor corrections ....

for GuruOfDos ...
The International Organization for Standardization (which publishes the ISO standards) has it's Central Secretariat (i.e. Headquarters) in Geneva, Switzerland. (It's a good thing it isn't in the U.S. or we'd never have had ISO 9000 or ISO 14000 - the U.S. standards system is a mess - there may be kids reading this so I'll avoid the word I usually use).

for I_IZHAUT ...
Farenheit actually does make sense ... it was an absolute zero scale when the freezing point of brine (0 deg) was felt to be the coldest possible temperature. The upper range was set to be normal human temperature (100 deg) which was believed to be a constant. Unfortunately, they couldn't measure body temp accurately so were 1.4 deg out and as we all know body temp varies slightly.

Glen Ford
Can Da Software

by oz_media

I run more of a risk of getting a ticket for driving slower. EVERYONE does 120+ on the North Island highway. I would probably get nailed for impeding traffic flow.

If the horses couls run that fast, but thyen I'd want to see them at Hastings Park for the BD Breeders.

by oz_ollie

The International Date Format is used by veryone except the US - the BIOS settings down under all comply with the International Date Format. The real idea is to make it easier to travel and communicate in this world.
There has been one recent example of why the US should update tot he metric system - does anyone remember a certain mission to Mars that had some altitude problems. The confusion between metric and US Imperial was the reason - very expensive egg on face for NASA scientists.
Get with the time - go metric.
By the way I learnt both - I was at school here in Australia when the change over took place so I understand both systems.

by simontew

Face it guys, the Americans have always gone their own way as far as international standards. The rest have PAL, the Americans have NTSC. American dates are back to front. Americans use a mains voltage of 110V, while most of the world is 220-240V. In the International System of Buoyage basically the whole world (Region A) uses one system and the US (plus one or two other countries - Region B) is back to front compared to the rest. Even the ITU has a special notation for telephone national and area codes for North America, which is different from the rest of the world.

When you're as big as the US you can develop your own standards but the problem comes when you have to interact with the rest of the world. For example, I'm sure several deaths have been caused in the Caribbean because many Americans do not know the international marine code flag for Diver Down, since they use a locally developed flag.

One of the other correspondents mentioned that the UK has been successful in its changeover because it took its time in changing. Most Antipodeans I know in the UK consider the changeover in the UK to be a total mess, precisely because the changeover has dragged on. The UK started its conversion before New Zealand yet in New Zealand it was all over in 5 to 8 years. In the UK it's still going on 30 years later.

The London Metro newspaper frequently quotes temperatures in its headlines in Fahrenheit, and all the street markets still sell produce in pounds (although they are forced to also display the prices in kg). Feet, yards and miles are still the norm when talking distance, although most people can deal with cm as well as inches. Milk as well as beer is still sold in pints.

In New Zealand the government got fully behind the conversion, unlike in the UK. They published a series of conversion pamphlets that were free for the taking in all post offices and government buildings. Everyone carried the pamphlets with them for reference and the whole conversion was over and done with in 5 years or so. It wasn't necessary, as one correspondent mentioned, to wait for generations for the old fogeys to die off and the kids who'd learnt metrics from day one at school to grow up. Even septuagenarians survived the conversion in NZ without ill effects.

By the way, I once heard that the US Congress passed a law in, I think, 1861, allowing the Metric System to hold equal place alongside the Imperial System in the US. If so, this must stand as the least successful adoption of the Metric System in history.

by maxwell edison

The flush toilet was patented by Mr. Thomas Crapper.

and

The U.S. Navy's first aircraft carrier launches a hot air balloon.

and

The first U.S. income tax of 3% was instituted (to pay for our uncivil war) on all personal income over $800.

and

U.S. first exports oil to Europe.

-----

It was 1866 when the U.S. Congress recognizes the Metric system of measurements. (Recognizes, not adopt.) I guess it's like when our distinguished congressional leaders vote to "adopt" a day to recognize teacher's assistants spouse's day, or some such nonsense.

by deadly ernest

I think the big issue in this thread is not that measurements etc are arbitrary, but who decides which you use. When most of the community uses one set of rules and one part deos not, who decides which set is the set that should be used by all.

Historically, the decision on which is used has been decided by force or by logic (depending upon how far back you go), and lately it has often been decided by market pressure (remember VHS vs BETA).

With the current high levels of USA imports and exports it cant be much longer before a decision for the use of one system has to be made. I know of one company here in Aust has refused to export goods to some places in the USA because they are required by law to include USA imperial measurements on the packaging (which they do) and recent laws require the packaging to be within certain imperial size limits. This would require totally new packaging for those states, so they stick with the current packages and don't ship to those states.

Many companies that import USA products have to arrange for new measurement stickers to be put on each package prior to being retailled in order to meet local packaging laws. Some companies are finding this too expensive and have stopped importing certain products when the manufacture refused to include the metric weights as part of the normal package printing.

This sort of pressure is going to have an effect in the long term as they are affecting market share and profitability.

by oz_media

In Canada, EVERYTHING has a French side and an English side. The majority of Canadians, even French Canadians, speak the Canadian equivalent of English. So why relabel EVERYTHING to accomodate those few people who missed the country's national tongue and decided that they wanted to remain French (except to a Frencman who would not see a Frech Canadian as being French).

There are more asians in BC than French Canadians, does that mean we have to have Mandarin on the flip side of all our labels too?

This morning I had pain grille francais, with a glass of Aberfoyle Esu de source naturelle. Then went to the magasin de coin to buy le litre de lait so I could go and have some le mais emiette.

Now you tell me metric is worse than that!

I don't care if they choose imperial or metric I have both sets of tools. My ONLY beef with American measurements and tools is the STINKING PHILLIPS CRAP !!! Invent a useful screw or use the Robertson! Now THERE's something America could do to keep Canadians happy !! I'd go for that over war anyday.

by nuclear

Imagine the power of a market the size of the Euro Zone (hundreds of millions). Oh Wait a MO there is already such a market, the USA.

Then think how a small market of only +-50 million people on an island just outside might slowly loose out to the buying and selling power of the big market and end up with nothing but their pride.

by maxwell edison

I'm sure no economist, but there are certainly more factors than just population that drives a national economy. England's proximity to mainland Europe is quite similar to Japan's proximity to China. (Albeit the relationship is quite different.) And Japan has been an economic power for quite some time - ever since free markets took over.

My guess would be that the freer the market, and the less socialistic tendencies, the stronger the economy - even if the population difference is as much as 100 to 1. Having said that, I wouldn't want to get in an economic bed with the likes of France and Germany either.

by oz_media

You are using a format that best suits YOUR needs.
Many would find this an inconvenient format. This may also be why different coutries have adopted different formats for the date.

by dc guy

Last time I checked, every computer on this planet sorts data the same way: Highest order character first. The only way an MMDDYYYY or DDMMYYYY format can be sorted correctly is to do it manually. Or else program the sort to break the date into three data elements.

by guruofdos

how Microsoft Excel does it!

Computers don't give a shit what time it is, their clocks increment in seconds past midnight or clock ticks since the power was applied.

They also don't give a toss how dates are formatted. You are not sorting by date, you are simply sorting by arbitrary number which happens to represent date. 20031002 representing 2003 - October-02 for instance may represent that in YOUR system but to another observer not familiar with your system, could simply represent twenty million, thirty one thousand and two.

File date stamping is done at the OS level on a computer in the most 'logical format' i.e. dd-mm-yyyy. However, how this date is viewed depends on your regional date settings. In DOS, it has always been dd-mm-yy or dd-mm-yyyy.

by dc guy

A quick sortie into the dictionary reveals that many red-blooded American measurement words are in fact of Latin origin. (Sorry, you folks on the Other Side, I know ReMaind meant to say "English.") Inch, Yard, Mile, Ounce, Pound, Acre, Cup, Pint, Quart, Gallon, Peck, Dozen, Gross. So far the only ones I've found that are NOT Latin are Foot, Ton, Fifth, and Bushel--and that last one is Irish!

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