Discussion Locked

Michael Moore is a [i]Sicko[/i]

0 helpful
160 replies
Closed to new repliesThis discussion is closed. It stays readable, but it takes no new replies.

Okay, I changed the title of this discussion from [i]Will the REAL idiot please stand up[/i] to what it is now. Why? Because I thought the new title would better reflect the subject matter, and it might even turn into a (somewhat) interesting discussion on the issue of health care.

I did leave the original links, however.

http://www.breitbart.tv/html/2823.html

To Michael Michael: http://tinyurl.com/6wbv

160 replies

by ontheropes

... one-thousandth of the people that Mr. Moore has influenced. Give 'er the old college try though eh? It's great "fun" to pick on those much more successful than you isn't it?

I think the real idiot has already stood up. Shoot... oh... man... guess it's me. Woohooo!

by jackofalltech

The number of people you influence is not the correct standard of right and wrong to go by. The Inquisition influenced more people (directly) than Jesus did but that doesn't make the Jesuits right.
I won't make any personal comments about Mr. Moore but I disagree with his views on just about anything and dislke his double-standard regarding other's failings vs. his own.

Ralph

by ontheropes

I like Mike. Like you, I don't agree with everything he does but then I don't like everything I do either and I'm my own boss. I'm also a frustrated film-maker and frustrated artist in general. I like to see people succeed who aren't necessarily "glamorous" and/or "politically correct" by somebody else's definition. It gives me hope and I need hope.

Oscar

by ontheropes

I used the word influence in a sentence. So?

I have seen individuals with influence here drive individuals away from TR. I also seriously doubt that many here could fill a single theater or auditorium or cause significant media stir because of some influential/artistic work of theirs.

When is the last time one of TR's members did the US talk show circuit?

by dadspad

Michael Moore aside, what is your take on the HMO/Health care industry in the US?

I belong to an HMO, and in general the have been very good. But anything outside of normal is a fight. I have no horror stories, but feel they could be real.

by maxwell edison

1. Health Care is a commodity, not a "right", and it should be purchased like any other commodity. The silly notion that health care is a "right" to which everyone is entitled is not only ludicrous, in principle, but it's the primary cause for many of the problems people run into, such as high cost, poor service, etc. A "right" is something that can be neither given or taken away -- and certainly not something that must be taken from another in order to have.

2. Health Care started getting expensive when other people were expected to pay for it, whether that be the government or insurance companies.

3. Health Insurance is abused and overused. It should be used ONLY for catastrophic cases. Using automobile insurance as an analogy, if people used it the same way as they do health insurance, they?d have to file an insurance claim and get preapproval in order to get a $200 oil change at Grease Monkey. Save the insurance claims for the big stuff, and pay as you go for the rest.

4. Doctors and hospitals should not comingle their services with the health insurance industry. The first question a ?customer? should be asked is, [i]How may we help you[/i], not, [i]Who is your insurance provider?[/i] Health insurance and health care are separate commodities, and they should be treated separately. And insurance companies should NEVER dictate what care may or may not be provided -- or the cost thereof.

5. If some fat-ass or chain smoker wants to ruin his health by his destructive life style, that?s his problem, not yours or mine. And it?s certainly not anyone else?s responsibility to pay for his health care. It?s such sentiments that then segue into dictating to other people how they live ? for their own good, of course.

6. Medical malpractice insurance (and exorbitant claims) is probably doubling, tripling, or even quadrupling the cost of delivering health care. It needs to be massively reevaluated ? and not by the trial lawyers who control both the system and the oversight.

7. Government (in the USA) exists to govern, not to deliver health care. (Michael Moore, however, believes that government should be the medical broker who gets another citizen to pay for health care for his fat-ass.)

(More as they come to mind.)

by oz_media

While I see exactly what your point is, nice and clear there, perhaps the veiwpoint of someone on teh other side of the fence can be seen the same way.

1). Healthcare is not a right, BUT, I agree that everyone that lives in my country should be entitled to health care without question, whether employed or not, rich orpoor or anything else. Nobody in my country should be descriminated against for teh sake of medical insurance. I am sure that echos the feelings of MOST who live in countries with government (SUPPORTED) helth care. No it's not really free as many think.

2) The cost health care being part of our country's budget (even if quite exorbitant) is of no importance to me. I' drather they spent it on keeping my neighbour alive for a few more years than killing someone overseas.
Saving lives without killing people.

3)Health insurance is a HUGE rip off, we agree there. ANY insurance is a rip off, insurance is not supposed to be paid out but simply collected by the insurance company. In Canada, health care costs are minimal, about $35.00 month for single person, SLIGHTLY more for families.

4)I agree, and doctors provided by the government are paid well, offer patient care and don't focus on selling the local pharmaceuticals in order to get a free trip to Hawaii. With respect to insurance companies dictating teh quality of care, it's the samewith cars, they dictate where they spend YOUR investment. Sad really.

5) "some fat-ass or chain smoker wants to ruin his health..." I agree to a point. But just as I accept the losers who abuse welfare so that those in real need can get aupport, so goes teh medical system. NO matter what system is devised, someone will abuse it. We either accept it as a way of life or forget those who need our help. Sorry can't do that,

6) Not applicable, out tax dollars pay the losers, our medical premiums stay about the same.

7) Michael Moore, yup pretty left wing, rather strong but he needs to be extreme to make his point. That's the American way, left extreme vs right extreme, no middle ground and no harmony between the self mandated divisions within your country.
But, if you ask people who live in countries where the government spend your money on health and not war, it's acceptable to them and they are more tan happy with the way it works. Canadians wouldn't vote in a government who didn't support health care, neither would most Brits.

TO look at that same analogy you offered, how about YOUR government deciding to spend YOUR money to help someone in a third world country? You accept that(even though often grudgingly if you don't feel it's in YOUR personal best interest) but not if its your neighbour?!?!?

To top it all off, how do Americans with this form of thought towards NOT helping thier fellowman, claim to be the saviours of the world? How can you claim to be so open hearted and helping when you wish for anything BUT that? Your money should be in YOUR opcket, the government shouldn't get any unless you choose to give them some. They people of your country shouldn't get any of it unless YOU choose ot give them some.

That works for some like yourself, who may be willling to donate and help others ifnancially, well done. But what about the ohter 300+ million Americans? Would they continue to hand out and help others after the novelty wore off? Would YOU give up a chunk of your cheque for the betterment of your fellowman if you didn't have to?

I'd say probably not.

In short, Americans seem to feel it's okay to spend hundrds of billions to attack others on thier own soil, but refuse to see the importance of spending hundreds of billions supporting and helping thier own, it just doesn't make much sense.

by tonythetiger

I was just thinking that, if it weren't for the malpractice insurance, regulations (that cost money to comply with), and the deadbeats, a typical office visit would probably cost about the same as a bargain ($26.95) oil change :)

by faradhi

The only government intervention I would like to see in the health care system is to require all health care companies to convert their businesses to nonprofit.

This includes, medical manufacturers, Insurance companies (if needed which I doubt), hospitals and any other companies.

I find it amazing that Medicare operates at 2% administrative costs while private companies that are supposed to run better and more efficiently than governmental agencies run at an average of 30%. Source: http://news-info.wustl.edu/news/page/normal/4981.html
Now, I do not like the idea of making Medicare available to everyone as presented in the above article. I find those two figures interesting.

In our current system, there is no incentive for producing cures. The incentive is to make illnesses manageable. Manageable illnesses are guaranteed revenue flow for doctors, manufacturers and pharmaceutical companies.

Heck the non profits can out produce the for profits. Look at St. Jude Children's Hospital. They have produced countless cures and treatments for cancers and are considered one of the best cancer treatment hospitals in the country. And do you know how much they charge their patients? $0

Non-profits often operate at lower administrative costs. Additionally, all revenue above expenses will roll into the company lowering costs or increasing/improving services.

However what non-profits do not do is eliminate competition. They will still need to compete for patients and professionals. Further, the agencies that do charge the patients will do so at the lowest costs possible because they do not have generate a profit for stockholders.

Bottom line, companies making money off of illness is IMHO sickening. There are a few industries I refuse to work in one is For Profit medical, the other is insurance, another is Pharmaceuticals. I have actually turned down jobs from all three.

Other than the addition of that above rant, I don't disagree with Max. Which is unusual.

by dadspad

First, I won't discuss M. Moore. His whole movie was to get discussions on US Health care. That is what we are doing.

What is the best health care. I don't know. There are simply too many [health] circumstances that people are in that are so different. I was listening to public radio one year and they discussed what the Federal gov. was doing. They had hundreds of medical plans compete for their employees. Since the selection of a well developed health plan would gain a huge amount of new customers, there were eager companies competing.

Should anyone be able to opt out of any plans, absolutely. My current employer offers that option and will add to your pay what they would have spent on you health plan. But many cannot not afford this option. A sick family member, disabled child, a desase like cancer is very costly, they need financial help. Maybe some of you are independently wealthy, but most are not.

Much has been said of people taking personal responsibility and only getting medical help when something is wrong. Nothing wrong with personal responsibility, in fact more people should do it. But even with you best efforts, things go wrong. You may be the healthest person alive, but could have a child that is not. Or a family member has a debilitating accident/desease. Any of these can wipe out all savings and put you heavily in debt. I know people working for companies just for the health benifits they provide.

Who should be covered. How can anyone have compassion and say that some can be eliminated and others can be covered. Sure, any one should be able to voluntarily not be insured, but to deny another....

I have a friend for many years that smoked heavily. Just found out my friend was diagnosed with cancer. Do I want to say it was their fault for smoking. H@ll no!!! This person does not deserve to die, their other qualities are too great!

I short, we can all determine what is the best health care for us. But we need to think carefully before saying what others need.

by maxwell edison

You said, [i]"Who should be covered. How can anyone have compassion and say that some can be eliminated and others can be covered. Sure, any one should be able to voluntarily not be insured, but to deny another...."[/i]

The problem with compassion is when people presume to be compassionate, but with other people's money.

by tonythetiger

between having compassion for someone, and allowing yourself to be taken advantage of by someone.

There are ways to live your life to minimize the risk of major medical expenses. Should someone who intentionally chooses a risky lifestyle be allowed to force others to bear the consequences?

We could extend that concept to other areas. Suppose someone takes their life savings and buys lottery tickets. All of them are losers and now he's completely broke. Should he then be allowed to go on the public dole, thereby forcing others to bear the consequences of his decision?

by tig2

How responsible was I for the cancer I got? Well, i suppose it could be said that I failed to have them removed at an earlier age, and therefore "chose" the risk... that I paid for dearly. And still pay for. The costs of treatment were only temporarily bourne by the state. I am paying that back. Four years later, I have the ability to. But even before that, while I was still struggling, I was still paying.

I have said it before and I will continue to say it- Tort reform is the best possible path out of the problem.

No one seems to realise that our God given right to sue the ass off of anyone who we MAY have a legitimate issue with costs money. Who pays it? Doctors, nurses, hospitals, providers... just to name a few. Does the guy who fell down on his way to the john, after lowering his own bed rails, pay? No- he gets paid. How about the guy who tries to commit suicide, saved by an alert ER staff? No, he got paid too.

The issue is not and has not, for quite some time, BEEN health care. It is Tort Reform. Period.

by jdclyde

It isn't the FACT that he is "left wing" that is the problem. It is that he will intentionally distort and misrepresent REAL facts with his crockumentaries.

With our current society, people believe something if they see it on TV or in a movie. I am sure you remember Neils reaction to people that thought Mel Gibsons "The Patriot" was accurate with the burning of the church full of people.

Another example of "artistic license" U-571
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-571_%28film%29

[i]"The film attracted criticism for its portrayal of an Enigma capture by an American, as opposed to a British crew, early in the war.

The film caused irritation and anger in Britain. The film was raised at Prime Minister's Question Time where Tony Blair agreed with questioner Brian Jenkins MP that the film was "an affront" to British sailors. [1] In response to a letter from Paul Truswell, MP for the Pudsey constituency (which includes Horsforth, a town proud of its connection with the ship that captured U-110), US president Bill Clinton wrote assuring that the film's plot was only a work of fiction.[2]"[/i]

by oz_media

He admits that his 'mockumentaries' are extreme and take one small issue and blow it as big as possible while focusing on only the negative.

YOU said: [i]It isn't the FACT that he is "left wing" that is the problem. It is that he will intentionally distort and misrepresent REAL facts with his crockumentaries[/i]

But there's absoutely NO difference in even the smallest way to how the Republican party constantly pretends all is fine and is always working to squelch the truth from hitting the people of America. YOu can even to tell me that the left is any better or worse than the right, they are both a laughing stock.

Here's the problem though, the right wing is doing this while sending your sons and daughters, brothers and sisters to war. All of a sudden it's not such a fun game, and it's people's they are using like slaves to the machine.

Michael Moore makes people think, he doesn't claim to be dead on and I don't think people take him as being spot on either. What he does do is raise questions and that pushes people to learn more of the facts and stop listening to whatever the politicians are spewing at them.

by jdclyde

and that makes him more than an annoyance.

As for your counter points, I do not accept the argument that "someone is just as bad as me, so it is alright".

Everyones actions should stand based upon their own merits. If the political zombies here in the states would START to do that, it would turn this country around.

While I loath the Democratic party based on what they say and do, I am disgusted with the way Republicans have sold out and no longer represent the conservative core.

Democrats of today are the Socialists party of the 50's.

Republicans of today are the Democrats of the 60's.

Both sides do not represent the people. Dems throw welfare programs to buy votes and Repubs, well, they are now doing the same thing. Both cater to special interests and big business, and only a complete moron could believe otherwise. How many know that the Clintons own oil stock, making THEM "big oil"?

Anyways, enough of the political Dem/Rep crap. About Moore.
[b]
I believe he is just pushing his own agendas and is seeking to distort the truth because he knows so many are too stupid and lazy to question and it will become the new truth. He is not interested in getting people to think for themselves, but to think what he wants them to think.

by pser

"There's nothing in the middle of the road except yellow lines and dead armadillos" - Jim Hightower

by mr stumper

"It is that he will intentionally distort and misrepresent REAL facts with his crockumentaries"

Never seen any one of Moore's films, but with such a statement, you should prove it...with reliable sources.

Also, have you seen any of his films? Just curious.

by jdclyde

Yes, I have seen a few. I do listen to people I disagree with to see what they have to say.

Of course, the best way to understand what I have said, find some of the sites that are anti-moore (plenty of them out there) and read what it has to say about the parts of his crockumentaries. Then you HAVE to watch to see for yourself, because seeing is believing.

A few quick examples from bowling for columbine. First, the sheriffs reports show that Harris and Clebold didn't even GO to their bowling class that morning, and NEVER like the class, contrary to statements by moore. But it never made sense anyways even if they did.

The 5 year old girl that was shot and killed in Flint Mi years ago ( my backyard, just about ), he goes into that (what does this have to do with Columbine?) he blames Dick Clark personally because HE employed the boys mother, and (horror of horrors, she had to WORK for a living like the rest of us). That she KNEW her brother was running a drug house and she moved in anyways and left her boy there seems to not matter.

He then jumps to a Charles Heston NRA speech, that is SUPPOSE to be right after the shooting, but if you pay attention to the clothes Heston is wearing, you can see it is a few different speeches, from different times, spliced together, to make it look like he was all hell and brimstone "FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS!" right after the shooting. Not the case.

He STARTS the show at a bank, by Traverse City, I believe. A big hunting area. They have a special if you opened an account, you got a rifle. Mind you, to get this, you had to submit to a background check and other hoops to jump through, and all the paperwork was done the week before. He makes it look like he walks in, shows no ID and they hand him a rifle and then gives the cheap shot of asking "how smart it is for a bank to hand out a gun"? They are licensed distributors, you have completed a complete background check, and they know exactly who you are. Are you going to use that gun to then rob the bank? Michele Mooron expects you to think so.

Sorry, not time for mooore, but it gives you an idea. If you REALLY care, the information is easy to find.

Oh yeah, for his "everyday joe" look that he still tries to give, he lives in a million dollar apartment in Manhattan.

by tonythetiger

between wanting to help your fellow man, and being forced to pay for programs that waste well over half of what they take.

by oz_media

Not even remotely close to the point being made, in fact you ave failed to see it at all.

As clearly demonstrated by your reply.

Sorry been there before, I know how single minded you can be. Enjoy, your thought.

by maxwell edison

Maxwell: I will not dictate to others how they should live, what they should do, or how they should think; I will not tell them what they should believe, and anything I espouse will fall entirely upon myself. What I believe is right will only affect me, and no others.

Oz: I want to force others to either believe or behave in a way that's consistent with my desired outcome. What I believe is right will prevail regardless of what others believe.

Maxwell: MY health care is MY responsibility, no one else's

Oz: MY health care is everyone's responsibility.

Maxwell: We're individuals.

Oz: We're a collective.

Admit it, Oz. Admit who you really are and what you really espouse. YOU desire to FORCE OTHERS to conform to YOUR way of thinking. I don't. That's a HUGE difference. Admit who and what you are.

by tonythetiger

that you want to hide your shortcomings in the masses whereas I want to bear responsibility for my own.

by ontheropes

Years ago I paid several thousands out of my own pocket to see if there was a cure or treatment for what ails me. (What ?ails me? is not germane to anything here.) If I'd been able to take responsibility for my diagnosis/treatment instead of having to go thru the steps my insurance company required I would've gone straight to a full body MRI scan which was the early, off the record, recommendation of the team of Doctors who were on my case.

I couldn't afford that after doing all of the insurance company required steps because I was already 1000's of dollar into my diagnosis. I would've had to foot the entire MRI bill myself because the insurance company wouldn't allow it.

A University team of Doctors at one of the finest teaching hospitals in the nation said it was the single best option. They said that for the entire six month period that I was seeing them and having tests, sometimes three times per week. All of the previous tests, including a bone-scan didn't warrant an MRI as far as the insurance company was concerned. I wasn't sick enough for my insurance company. The team of Doctors final advice? You're 100% grade A beef until something falls off, then we'll fix it. :D

Here I am, years later, always dealing with the same condition and just a few weeks ago I had a medical emergency. One of the first things the emergency medical team did was to perform an MRI scan of my head. (No they didn't find anything. Funny.) My point is that years ago I literally wasted thousand of dollars, when it wasn't an emergency, on tests that proved nothing when my Doctors generally wanted to go straight to a full body MRI but couldn't because the case has to escalate at the rate the insurance company will pay for it. If I knew then what I know now I would've just paid for the MRI and skipped the months of failed diagnosis. That IS what the Doctors generally wanted to do because my symptoms didn't fit any of their diagnostic paths. They were working in the dark, so to speak.

The insurance companies don't have as much at stake in my healthcare as I do. Never have, never will. I should also be given a copy of the results for every test I have to pay for including copies of MRI scans, X-rays, CT scan and even blood tests. Maybe I could diagnose myself via the Web. Who knows? I had one Doctor who spent considerable time on his own in the Universities medical library. I've looked for diagnosis myself for years now because I care more than I can expect any Doctor to care.

Ask me about something as simple as a busted wrist sometime.

I simply don't trust my government to get anything right. Nothing. I sure don't want them mucking around with MY health care or the health care of those I love.

by tonythetiger

the government would want you to die as soon as they determined you were no longer productive. That was the plan from the inception of Social Security (most workers died before they got to or very shortly after they retired), but our increasing longevity threw a monkey wrench into the works.

by ontheropes

I always laid it off to reading too much about WWII when I was a kid.

Colin Powell on Fox News regarding a missing Russian scientist: "Finding the Russian scientists may be a problem being that Russia does not have a Social Security system, as here in America, that allows us to monitor, track down and capture an American citizen."

Wunnerfull, wunnerful.

What's social about an SS number?

by Member 25348569

Well, you'd have got your MRI in the UK for no direct charge although you'd probably have had several month's wait depending on where you live. You'd have got it in France [i]immediatement[/i] and it would have cost you a nominal percentage of the "real" cost. These are the two healthcare systems that I know most about so I'll leave Oz or someone to comment what would have happened in Canada.

I'm interested that you say "I sure don't want them [the government] mucking around with MY health care" yet what you describe is something that strikes those of us who DO have social healthcare as everything that is wrong with your system - that is the routine intervention of non-clinicians in treatment choices. We get hospital administration bean-counters poking their noses in our system and interfering with treatment choices but at least they aren't doing it so shareholders can make a bit more profit.

Neil :D

by maxwell edison

You said, [i]"Well, you'd have got your MRI in the UK for no direct charge although you'd probably have had several month's wait depending on where you live. You'd have got it in France immediatement and it would have cost you a nominal percentage of the "real" cost. These are the two healthcare systems that I know most about so I'll leave Oz or someone to comment what would have happened in Canada."[/i]

The "cost" is the cost, regardless of what it is. If it costs some health care provider $1,000 to provide an MRI, for example, somebody, somewhere, somehow is paying that $1,000 (or more). Just because the recipient pays only a fraction of that, it doesn't mean someone else (or indirectly, that very person) isn't paying the rest.

By the way, what would happen to the cost and quality of computers if the government took over the entire computer industry, mandated that everybody gets a new one every so often, and became a single-payer for them?

(P.S. [i]immediatement[/i]? That?s a new one on me.)

by maxwell edison

You said, [i]"..... yet what you describe is something that strikes those of us who DO have social healthcare as everything that is wrong with your system - that is the routine intervention of non-clinicians in treatment choices. We get hospital administration bean-counters poking their noses in our system and interfering with treatment choices but at least they aren't doing it so shareholders can make a bit more profit."[/i]

There are more options than simply what we have now versus government controlled. That's a problem with the debate, if you ask me; people are considering ONLY two options (or various versions of those two options). Since our system IS screwed up, it's being used as justification for a government controlled, single payer system. However, our system started getting screwed up when the cost of a person's health care started being passed on to a third-party. What's the solution being thrown around most often? Let's solve the problem by doing more of the same, but only restructured? That sounds pretty insane to me.

Government controlled (or provided) health care has problems. The current U.S. health care system has problems. My preferred health care system has problems. The difference between the first two and the last is that the first two presume to pass on the problem to others and/or government.

How about if we concede that not all problems can be solved by government? Or are you suggesting they can be? And how about if we concede that individual problems just might be best solved by individuals themselves? Collectivist thinkers, however, would never make such a concession. It's obvious to me, though, that it rings very true. Helping individuals find a way to solve their own problems is a much better approach than simply passing them on to others (or government) to solve.

As a somewhat related segue, I?ve read (and even observed) that most people go through life, not striving for excellence, or not taking full and total responsibility, or not following big dreams, but rather avoiding pain. Avoiding pain is the driving force in more peoples? lives that facing life head-on. How many people get bogged down in rut of a job because it?s comfortable, even though with a little effort they could be better off elsewhere? They stay where they are because it avoids the pain of improving. Taking full and total personal responsibility takes a lot of effort ? painful effort ? even though people would be exponentially better if they did. It?s less painful to pass the problem ? any problem ? onto government. And it?s a disservice to humanity to prey on peoples? pain, something politicians do every day.

by ontheropes

I'm probably one of the last people you'd see kissing up to Max and that's not what I'm doing but when he makes sense he makes sense, regardless of how I may "feel" about it or him at the time. There are, generally speaking, more than just two solutions/options for any given problem.

I've thought that our insurance/healthcare system has been broken for a long time. I began to think that, maybe a little later than some, when we started to have to pay for it out of our own pockets for company provided insurance. I was never allowed to seek insurance on my own. Supplemental insurance sure but I couldn't just prove that I had coverage or even better opt-out of ANY insurance coverage. I was younger, in good shape, made good money... hey, I was betting that I was going to stay healthy. Insurance company actuarial tables would've shown the same thing.

To give you an idea of what it was like to work where I did I'll tell this story.

The second year that we were offered cafeteria-style benefits the company offered, in writing, to provide paid medical insurance upon retirement in lieu of a raise. If we didn't have a majority vote in favor of that the company was going to give us a raise, $0.75/hr, and have to slightly increase our "out-of-pocket" expenses for insurance even though they acted as their own fiduciary. The effective raise was less than $0.50/hr. as the vast majority of people I worked with weren't looking at retirement soon. Their idea was to get "the biggest bang for their buck". That was the chant they had. Tired of hearing that.

What I'm saying is, short version, let me take care of my own shlt. Don't take anything out of my paycheck. Let me be responsible for everything for which I'm legally liable. Let me take care of my own retirement if I choose to plan for retirement. Let me take care of my own health plan instead of giving me just six "company" options.

Chances of any of that happening? Zero. If the American voters don't bother to study the issues and get out and vote things are going to get worse for all of us here and our allies too. Aren't you kind of sorry that you're our friend already. Speak up so I can record it on the "monitor". We're watching you. :|

by Member 25348569

easily - as is ours. The reason that I posted the French as a third example is that they seem to have a reasonably efficient health service that delivers what is required without spending as much per capita as the US. The NHS, by US standards of healthcare costs, is grossly underfunded.

The thing that is wrong with both of our systems is that no-one being treated knows the real cost of their treatment. In our case, that is because it is "free" and in your case because it is either "free" or paid for by insurance.

More later.

by Member 25348569

to compare healthcare to, say, pension provision. I'm quite happy to deal with my own pension as I can have a pretty good idea - barring major economic meltdown which would screw us all up anyway - how much I need to at least an order of magnitude. A simple savings plan will probably take care of a pension.

Healthcare is one of those things where you can be hit by enormous costs beyond your ability to pay and this means that insurance of some form is the only answer.

Currently, private insurance is the answer adopted by the majority of US citizens and, for whatever reasons (and I invite you to comment) the US spends 15% of your very high GDP on healthcare and your system is ranked 35th in the world. Something is wrong.

by Member 25348569

but I think that I'll survive it.

Peut-?tre j'ai le cervau d'un sandwich au colle de poisson mais vraiment je ne donne pas de merde.

:D

Translated directly from the English by NITS(tm) - "Maybe I have the brains of a fishpaste sandwich but I really don't give a sh:t"

by cactus pete

The collective should be able to get a lower rate for services based on volume pricing. In this respect, there is a natural tendency to look for government to help lower the cost to its citizens.

There are obvious flaws - politics. We government not run by politicians, the government health care system would likely be run more efficiently, and cost reductions would then be realized with no reduction in quality of services.

Individual pain, voluntarily given, can definitely help almost any issue. But society can also benefit as a whole if the rising tide does, indeed, lift all ships. In this respect, if politicians could face up to a little pain, too, the nation could be better.

Blame does not rest on any particular body or group, IMHO.

by ontheropes

so it wasn't totally about pension. :) Regarding the reasons that "Something is wrong". I don't care to comment. I don't feel up to "fixing" or commenting upon everything/anything that's wrong anymore today. Maybe later. I'm a tired and lazy ol' dood right now.

I can't believe were not number one. :0 I don't remember hearing it on the news show err... news broadcast I meant to say. Go figure.

I'm actually waiting to hear from one of my hospital administration-type relatives so that I can confirm a few things. Maybe I'll comment back here today. If they'll talk to me. :D

by pser

Have you really watched any of his documentaries or are you just repeating what these "anti-Moore" sites are saying? I ask because I have seen every one of them ... as a matter of fact, I own all of them. He readily admits to making HIS documentaries with HIS biases, they are after all HIS docs. The problem with that issss ... what? It's his right to speak his mind as is every other Americans ... right? If not, why is he not afforded the same rights as you or I? It's funny how rabid Republicans get about him and his work ... that speaks volumes in and of itself!

Your first "quick example" about them going to their bowling class, the school records and video from the alley shows that they WERE there but even if they were not, what difference does THAT make?!?!?

The rest of your examples are what make me question whether or not you have actually watched it. For example, you did not mention anything about Moore admitting to being a card carrying, life long member of the NRA, he displays his card in BFC for the whole world to see. Try watching it "again", it is a powerful documentary, NOT "left wing propaganda" as the "right" would want everyone to think it is. Seriously JD, watch it for what it is NOT what you want it to be.

We've crossed paths before in threads concerning gun control, hunting, etc. before. If you do not recall ... I am of Native American ancestry. My father left the Res. at age 13, My grandfather ministered on the Res. until his death. I am right there with you and Heston as far as "FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS!" but you have to know there is more to BFC than this message. If you don't, then you must not have watched it.

Your last line "Oh yeah, for his "everyday joe" look that he still tries to give, he lives in a million dollar apartment in Manhattan.", a local boy from Flint made it ... the problem with that issss???? Sounds like ... "The American Dream" to me! Why 'Hate' on anyone for 'Making it"?

Living in Mich. you can't tell me "Roger and Me" did not strike a chord. If you have not seen that one ... I highly recommend it, along with the rest of his work. You don't HAVE to like the guy but if you have not actually WATCHED his work ... you should NOT be slamming it. IMHO.

by maxwell edison

1. People are (or should be) responsible for their own lives. It?s not someone else?s responsibility to provide for them.

2. Health Care is not a ?right?, but rather a commodity that should be purchased like any other goods or services.

3. One person (either individually or collectively) should not be forced to provide goods or services for another.

There are people who would honestly answer [i]False[/i] to all three of those questions ? the true Socialists among us. If you are one of them, please stand and be recognized.

I, on the other hand, would answer [i]True[/i] to all three, and I suspect that most people, on principle and ?generally speaking?, would agree. Where those people and I might differ, however, is my willingness to rest on those principles, design any system upon them, and just let the chips fall where they may. Others, however, would start citing exceptions and examples of subsequent problems, and therefore seek ?solutions? that violate the underlying principle.

Regardless of how ?broken? our health care system might be, the best solution is one that will not violate those underlying principles. Unfortunately, even the most conservative people in government, including the current President, have, for the sake of political expediency, compromised those principles and capitulated to the socialist, collectivists, and non thinkers.

People have no idea what they?re giving away when they relinquish the right to self determination and the right to take self responsibility. This is what I believe was meant when Benjamin Franklin, or whomever it?s credited to these days, said that people who would give up essential liberty for a little security will get or deserve neither.

by Member 25348569

whilst I might agree with, generally, and answer "True" to your three statements, life is seldom so black and white.

Specifically with respect to healthcare, I would disagree with you and suggest that any workable solution will have to 'violate the principles'. This is purely a personal opinion and I don't have a problem with violating YOUR principles (only my own) so feel free to differ.

Personal health is one of those things that we do better collectively and with a general idea that the profit motive should be limited or completely absent. Most things during the average person's lifetime - education, housing, children and their education, retirement provision can be budgeted. A family's requirement for healthcare is simply a lottery and, therefore, cannot be simply "purchased like any other goods or service" and requires some form of insurance. You can either do that with private insurance companies or the State can provide the insurance in the form of social medicine.

by maxwell edison

What?s the population of the UK? 50 or 60 million? What?s the population of Canada? 30 to 40 million? Compared the population of the USA, which is at about 300 million, one might deduce that any such ?collectivist? system will work better the smaller it is. Is there a point in size in which a system that might seem workable for a smaller number becomes unmanageable for a larger one?

Or might you suggest that a larger collective would be better? If so, hell, let?s just get the World Health Organization to become the global health care providers for all 6.5 billion of us! It should really be both high quality and cheap then!

by delbertpgh

The country is rich. People ought not to suffer untreated illness and shortened lives because they live in an economic segment that can't afford treatment.

In fact, prosperous as I am, I couldn't have afforded the treatment for my wife's breast cancer (approaching $300,000) without health insurance. Health insurance is a case of me paying for other people's treatment, until I get something I can't afford, which is when I push the costs off on them. I guess you could call this liberal-minded parasitism.

by maxwell edison

A right (in this context) can be neither given or taken. (You could give them away, however.) A ?right? is something a person inherently possesses, granted by no one.

In the United States, a person?s ?rights? are protected by government, not provided by government.

To assume health care is ?a right? is to presume others must provide it for you. You may have a right to provide your own health care, but you have no such right to have others provide it for you.

I?d love to see your reasoning that health care is a ?right?.

by tig2

First- my deepest sympathies to both you and your wife. I know how hard the course of breast cancer treatment is and how very difficult that time has been for you both. Please peer me with her name so that I can add her to my ribbons of survivors- those who have seen the dragon, and won.

Fortunately, for those who are in the lion's share of that segment, there is treatment and health care available. The quality of that care strongly depends on where you live. There are, sadly, no National standards.

Max is going on about health care. The issue is Tort Reform. Doctors charge higher fees, hospitals charge higher fees, nurses strike- because so much of their income goes to defend themselves from every patient they treat.

The greatest gift is that your wife is (hopefully) on the other side. Raise a sneaker to us who walk in the hope that we can raise awareness against a killer that can be avoided.

by drowningnotwaving

1. Demonstrably false. Most societies have built a series of rules, criminal and/or civil and/or procedural, and have many various means of enforcing, policing or protecting people against violations of those rules.

It is your own style to not put definitions or examples around where you perceive those "rules" start and stop.

To quote:

[i]Others, however, would start citing exceptions and examples of subsequent problems, and therefore seek ?solutions? that violate the underlying principle.
[/i]

In the absence of [b]your[/b] perception of where those exceptions and examples are / aren't okay, you seem to be using an argumentative tool to avoid reality and take what you consider to be the 'high ground'.

You do it very well, by the way.

2. It's your opinion only. It's not an inviolate principle of life.

Many cultures and societies have deemed health care a right and responsibility of the greater to provide for the few.

Personally, I believe there are basic services and levels that are the responsibility of society to provide. Optional or elective services are clearly the choice of the patient.

Where the boundary is on elective/non-elective, will no doubt be an argument for another 200 years as well.

In itself, the provision of health care by us/our government/public service (whatever) does not deplete my ability to acheive whatever I wish for me and my family.

In my opinion anyway.

3. Demonstrably incorrect - see point 1.

On this basis, to extrapolate the point, would you say providing emergency and compassionate assistance, for example with the tidal wave of a couple of years ago, is a flagrant misuse of your taxation dollar?

{As an aside, someone mentioned in a recent post that the US had never received assistance when it had its own natural disasters. That is not quite true. The US has been offered multiple forms of assistance but has usually declined on the basis that it generally has its own resources that are extremely well planned, rehearsed and managed. But such support has been offered.

Australia has provided significant fire-fighting expertise and man-power in recent years, to the US in bad fire seasons.}

I think you are right on Benjamin Franklin on your comments and that is enlightening to me. It's a non-obvious application of his thoughts that has made me think.

I'd suggest that the obvious thoughts are sometimes as valid as well. I personally would have thought that things like the Real ID and its propensity to be abused by future public services, as well as the dismantling of freedoms under the Patriot Act and similar provisions in most 'western' governments around the world, would have had the same gentleman and his peers rolling in their graves.

I'm not commenting on US politics so much as the principles which many international governments are trying to establish the same style of 'guardianship'.

by maxwell edison

For reference:

1. People are (or should be) responsible for their own lives. It?s not someone else?s responsibility to provide for them.

2. Health Care is not a ?right?, but rather a commodity that should be purchased like any other goods or services.

3. One person (either individually or collectively) should not be forced to provide goods or services for another.

You said, [i]"1. Demonstrably false. Most societies have built a series of rules, criminal and/or civil and/or procedural, and have many various means of enforcing, policing or protecting people against violations of those rules..... It is your own style to not put definitions or examples around where you perceive those "rules" start and stop."[/i]

Please explain how your rebuttal and my principle are in conflict. If anything, they are in agreement: that is, a person not living responsibly (by infringing on the rights of others) will be held to account.

Please reply to what I did say, not to what I did not say.

You said, [i]"2. It's your opinion only. It's not an inviolate principle of life..... Many cultures and societies have deemed health care a right and responsibility of the greater to provide for the few..... Personally, I believe there are basic services and levels that are the responsibility of society to provide. Optional or elective services are clearly the choice of the patient..... Where the boundary is on elective/non-elective, will no doubt be an argument for another 200 years as well..... In itself, the provision of health care by us/our government/public service (whatever) does not deplete my ability to achieve whatever I wish for me and my family..... In my opinion anyway."[/i]

Well, you gave your opinion, I gave mine. Moreover, you are not a citizen of my country. You can certainly attempt to structure your society however you'd like. In the very least, give me the same courtesy. Why is it you "foreigners" always challenge Americans on how Americans should live in America? Nonetheless, please define "a right". He's my attempt:

https://www.techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=102&threadID=229249&messageID=2277022

Those are my comments on only the first half of your message. Perhaps I'll comment further on the rest.

by maxwell edison

For reference:

1. People are (or should be) responsible for their own lives. It?s not someone else?s responsibility to provide for them.

2. Health Care is not a ?right?, but rather a commodity that should be purchased like any other goods or services.

3. One person (either individually or collectively) should not be forced to provide goods or services for another.

You said, [i]"3. Demonstrably incorrect - see point 1..... On this basis, to extrapolate the point, would you say providing emergency and compassionate assistance, for example with the tidal wave of a couple of years ago, is a flagrant misuse of your taxation dollar?"[/i]

Well, your "point one" was flawed, and so is this. See my rebuttal.

Moreover, you're comparing providing socialized health care for an entire population on a day-to-day basis to providing emergency assistance to victims of a disaster. In my opinion, that's comparing apples and sidewalks. The two are not related.

You went on to say, [i]"{As an aside, someone mentioned in a recent post that the US had never received assistance when it had its own natural disasters. That is not quite true. The US has been offered multiple forms of assistance but has usually declined on the basis that it generally has its own resources that are extremely well planned, rehearsed and managed. But such support has been offered..... Australia has provided significant fire-fighting expertise and man-power in recent years, to the US in bad fire seasons.}"[/i]

Well, I never said such things, so perhaps you should have challenged (and proved) your point with that other chap. However, I will say this. I live in the Western United States, and forest fires are something we deal with annually. Moreover, two of my very best friends are forest fire fighters. I won't say that you guys have never helped out, but I've never heard that you have. If you want to substantiate your claim, please do so -- and if it's true, I thank you. But please take it to the next step and compare it to the help the USA provides to other nations in time of natural disaster -- you're welcome.

by maxwell edison

I do find it amusing that the people who repeat that Franklin quote when arguing against the Patriot Act, conveniently forget it when debating any other social program. Was Franklin referring to national security or personal security? I suggest the latter. What do they suggest?

by maxwell edison

.....that I read no further in your message. The 2 percent administrative costs sounded so outlandish to me that I stopped all reading and immediately posted my question. Thanks for indulging me and not blasting away for not reading your whole message.

However, before I would concede such a figure, I'd have to dig into it more. Heck, I would think that the administrative costs for running ANY business would be well over 2 percent.

But you did post your source, and for that I thank you. Now I'm off to prove the figure bogus. (Want to make a wager that I'll be able to prove it bogus?)

by maxwell edison

More like 6 to 8 percent (plus plus - see below)

http://www.cahi.org/cahi_contents/resources/pdf/CAHI_Medicare_Admin_Final_Publication.pdf

http://healthcare-economist.com/2006/07/27/medicares-true-administrative-costs/

[i]?Finally, we need to realize that administrative costs are like people: some are good, and some are bad. What if a private insurance company raised its administrative costs by 1% , but was able to reduce fraudulent claims by 10% and reduce the premium charged to customers by 8%.?[/i]

[b]Medicare waste, fraud and abuse:[/b]

[i]?Your GAO (Government Accounting Office) reported on August 11, 1995 that health care experts estimate as much as 10 percent of national health care spending is due to waste, fraud, and abuse.?[/i] (And that was 12 years ago. Has it gotten better or worse, do you think?)

http://seniors-site.com/forum/medicare.html

[i]?The United States General Accounting Office estimates that $1 out of every $7 spent on Medicare is paid inappropriately due to error, fraud and abuse.?[/i]

http://www.futureofaging.org/PublicationFiles/V5N6.pdf

And I found something else interesting about Medicare ?administrative costs?. The providers also have them, and those can be passed onto Medicare for reimbursement. I wonder what the that would bring the total percentage up to?

And, did you also know that Medicare (the US government) contracts out to private companies some functions relating to claims and processing? For example, Blue Cross and Blue Shield of Rhode Island is a ?contractor? for the processing of Medicare claims, and the administrative fees are charged back to the government? I don?t know for sure, but I?d bet a dollar to dirt that those administrative costs are over and above any other claimed cost of the government administering Medicare.

It?s actually too mind-boggling to get an accurate handle on what?s really going on and/or what it costs. Another reason to scrap the whole system.

by tig2

In the state I live in, there is a state insurance that ostensibly covers health care for any resident in need. If you are judged to be able to pay back a prorated amount for heath care services received, you will be billed, then liened against, and finally garnished. Prorated value is based on the income you have the minute you are earning and increases with your earning potential.

Even health care in this country has a secondary price tag. Generally there is a co-pay amount that you must pay with each visit and prescription.

The biggest problem in health care is the failure to implement tort reform. Doctors are afraid to treat the very people he is paid to treat. The quality of care is rubbish. Nurses ask permission to touch you in an effort to avoid law suits.

There was a successful law suit brought against an ER crew because they saved the life of a suicide attempt. The minute the person was able, they called a lawyer.

There are reasons that I am no longer a nurse. The fact that I paid high premiums for liability insurance was on the top of the list. Oddly enough, I need the paycheck in order to live and when a large share pays for me to be emplyed, it is time to re-think.

I work in the health care industry today. I know that we are pushed to find new and creative ways to reduce costs and still provide the highest level of care to our members. It just isn't easy.

by tonythetiger

The feds already have buildings, office and computer equipment with support staff, collection agents, etc. that aren't counted in the cost. Also, the elderly typically use more medical resources, which makes the administrative cost a smaller fraction of the total.

You really have to watch out for government efficiency figures. Basically they grade themselves and tell you the result. I know. I have to fix 3 problems every day as part of my "grade". If nothing breaks, I either have to go and break something, or make something up. My grade card shows I fixed an average of exactly 3 problems a day. One of those is checking the backups....

by tonythetiger

[i]If so, hell, let?s just get the World Health Organization to become the global health care providers for all 6.5 billion of us! It should really be both high quality and cheap then![/i]

You and I know EXACTLY who will be paying for it too, don't we?!?!?

by Member 25348569

do perfectly well with their healthcare system so I'm not sure what your throwaway one-liner post was trying to say! They pay a smaller percentage of a lower GDP that does the US and they are considerably higher than the US's 35th place in healthcare provision for their citizens.

by drowningnotwaving

Your principle is (in my reading) in conflict in that there are clearly many instances where the is an absolute mandate upon an individual to contribute (let's say in the form of tax) for the provision of services to another.

Your definition of 'right' is consistent as always. IMHO it lacks a societal impetus, which I'll try to define: [i]"at any given point in my society, I share a right and responsibility that that society has deemed necessary. By choosing to participate in that society I have the responsbility to contribute and the right to receive"[/i]. I'm not sure if I have put that very well.

If a person doesn't agree with such rights and responsibilities then they can argue a case for change, get a bigger gun and make it change, or change societies.

I think it is a semantic and somewhat irrelevant argument whether or not these are true rights (to your definition) or otherwise.

If you don't see that as a conflict with your original statement/s then good. I actually wasn't (in this case) trying to be personally obtuse or conflicting as such.

by drowningnotwaving

... but there is always that choice. Such choice is exercised daily worldwide by tens of thousands who decide to change their society because of oppression, opportunity or combinations thereof.

Whether the brave / painful decision is to 'stay and fight' or to pick your entire family or life up and move, is a decision that each person makes on their own.

I'd say that the 'decision', perhaps 99.99 percent of the time, is to read the paper, kick the cat, do nothing, vote for the same party at every election and blame the other guy. Perhaps it's not necessarily an evil society that gives people that opportunity in itself.

by drowningnotwaving

[i]Moreover, you're comparing providing socialized health care for an entire population on a day-to-day basis to providing emergency assistance to victims of a disaster. In my opinion, that's comparing apples and sidewalks. The two are not related.[/i]

Where I believe the two may be related is in the consistency of your inference of the problems you see regarding expenditure of your dollars for compassionate reasons.

It isn't too much of a stretch (I think) to see that the justification of health care may include (but is not limited to) a compassionate element.

I used the example to try to determine where you see the limit of either your responsibility or (in this case) what should be the limit of compassionate actions by a government (i.e. spending your money).

If, in it's extremity, the example missed the point, then hopefully this clarifies the reason for using it.

Little comment: re international support to US - I did say it was an aside and thus minor. I didn't mean to make it 'large'.

http://www.forest.nsw.gov.au/currentaffairs/releases/260803.asp

I doubt you'd be interested but if you are, key in the words and you'll find many printed reports not just the PR.

Such things make big news in Australia. I doubt it makes the small print in the USA.

by maxwell edison

My responsibility is to assume, and live with, the outcome of my choices. It's not to assume, and live with, the outcome of YOUR (or anyone's) choices and/or breaks in life.

Are you suggesting that I am "my brother's keeper"? Because if you are suggesting that I'm responsible for "my brother's outcome", then I sould be able to assume control over his decisions. I make no such assumption. Moreover, that's a frightening thought, in my opinion.

by drowningnotwaving

..make the debate fun.

I would interpret a similar/vice versa convenience in the debate of those who support such incursions into our individual freedom.

by maxwell edison

If there was an olympic medal for being vague and elusive, you'd win the gold?

Care to be clear and specific as it relates to my message?

by drowningnotwaving

You said:

[i]I do find it amusing that the people who repeat that Franklin quote when arguing against the Patriot Act, conveniently forget it when debating any other social program.[/i]

My point, vague as it is, is that I have exactly the same feeling but in the opposite direction: many conveniently forget it (and other profound contributions) when supporting such as the Patriot Act or its local variants.

by maxwell edison

There is no such choice to escape the claws of those who wish to dictate how you live. Name one place on the face of the earth where a person could go and live a life, opting out of any semblance of a "collectivist" society.

Answer: It used to be the USA. That's why people FLOCKED to her shores.

Moreover, I shouldn't have to "move somewhere" to find it. It should be an inherent right to have it.

by drowningnotwaving

.. and I can recall in threads of yore other people saying as much.

Indeed that it probably had never existed, ever.

So, does that make your impassioned plea for such a place persistent and admirable or simply fanciful?

Oh come on, lighten up before you throw that javelin. :)

by maxwell edison

The first being the freedom and liberty to make one's own choices. The other is the realization of the affects of a devastating illness. I don't presume to have the answer to such a conflict. I leave such things to a higher power than me.

by maxwell edison

I would make a compromise with all who disagree with the Patriot Act, that I would support its demise IF they ALSO support the demise of all other social programs. And let me keep my guns, and I'll defend my own life against anyone who wishes to take it. (disclaimer: that's figuratively speaking, of course, as I don't now, nor ever have I ever owned a gun.)

by mr stumper

Sorry, but sarcasm deserves sarcasm. Or is it really sarcasm?

"Of course, the best way to understand what I have said, find some of the sites that are anti-moore (plenty of them out there) and read what it has to say about the parts of his crockumentaries. Then you HAVE to watch to see for yourself, because seeing is believing"

Why do that? Why start with a pre-concieved notion? Why not watch the movie and then use that, what did you call it again? Google? (That google guy must have some goo-goo-googly eyes) To find out more.

He then jumps to a Charles Heston NRA speech, that is SUPPOSE to be right after the shooting, but if you pay attention to the clothes Heston is wearing, you can see it is a few different speeches, from different times, spliced together, to make it look like he was all hell and brimstone "FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS!" right after the shooting."

Guess what, splicing happens on political radio and TV shows all the time (both sides...BTW). It's always a political ploy in order to get a point across (as slimy as it is) and borders on all out propaganda. However, anyone with a brain can figure that out and incorporate it into their own conclusions.

But I am curious because the Left thinks he's the next best thing to sliced bread and the Right hates him so much that they will spend countless hours nit picking every little detail.

I might have to watch it when it is released on DVD.

All I know is that HMOs truly suck. I have a few stories on that, but I will spare TR the details.

by maxwell edison

I'm tired and I'm going to bed. It's late at night here, while you have the whole day ahead of you. In the very least, perhaps our dialogue will provide some interesting reading for the night-owls.

Go ahead, you can have the last word. (But I'll not read it for at least the next 10 hours.)

Later...

by delbertpgh

It's been years, so you could say my wife is cured, but it could still kill her some day. We don't get sentimental about it. Other people get lousy health care right now, not because it's unavailable, but because it is unaffordable. I brought up my wife and her expensive, but routine, treatments because I wanted to show that I was not working without concrete examples. A lumpectomy, chemo, radiation, and physical therapy are standard treatments. The standard treatment costs around a quarter million. If she didn't get it, she would have died. Unless somebody paid for it, she wouldn't have gotten it. In my case, other people paid for it: my insurance group. The fact is that almost all Americans can't afford major care unless they form a social organization to share the burden. Although there's an important political difference between a network of private insurance societies and a universal system, the moral difference is already gone. We are used to laying our medical bills off on other people, and other people put up with it because they like the security.

As far as malpractice torts go, sure it costs everybody something, and sure, we could do with some reform in that department. But, keep in mind, without lawsuits, we'd have a lot more scumbags with stethoscopes ripping us off and sounding self-righteous about it. That's human nature. You give doctors, or anybody, a license to easy money by making them immune to retribution, then you get a lot of people screwing others out of their health.

by Member 25348569

I invite you to check out how other countries deal with cases of malpractice. Trust me in this, the USA as a country is unique in the level of litigious claims and the resulting knock-on effect to the cost of your healthcare.

I don't say that we get it right but I KNOW that you don't.

by delbertpgh

I don't doubt there are better ways of handling malpractice than the way we do it in the States. I'm sure that the threat of lawsuits compels a lot of unnecessary medical practice, and confines doctors to conservative treatments whose primary virtue is that they will look better in court, if it comes to that. The United States is in fact a showcase of dumb moves in public health practice. However, the American people are infatuated with the lawsuit, and I don't think there's anything we can do to get substantial and effective reform done in this department. It's like trying to legislate away guns, or getting the money out of politics. It won't work because we don't really want it to work, stupid though that may be.

by delbertpgh

He says: "A right is something a person inerently possesses, granted by no one... a person's rights are protected by government, not provided by government." I believe this is the concept of rights springing from natural law, or what modernist libertarian people assume is their entitlement as men the equal of other men.

This idea of being the equal of other men, and that law should protect that idea, to guarantee the economically or politically weak a certain equality of social standing which is the earthly equivalent of their equal standing before God, is the central achievement of American thought. Usually, the strong make the laws, but the idea of the dignity of each man limits in America what the strong can do, using the law as an instrument of their own interests.

It has struck a lot of people, me included, that health care is a necessary piece of the dignity package. It's an individual good, which is also a social good. It's hard to be a decent man when you're sick. The rich can buy health (not in all centuries, but today they sure can), and it seems to me as natural as the right of access to a decent public education, to give everybody a fair opportunity to compete and feel well, and have some kind of chance playing against the better-born.

(Incidentally, I think the public schools are lousy, and in big cities like Pittsburgh they are super lousy, and do not give the poor an even chance to show their worth.)

In a rural society, where there is no economic activity except agriculture, a man who digs more beets is richer and justly entitled to more benefits of society than a man who digs fewer beets. Taxing away the fruits of his labor to enrich others who did not work as hard would be a social evil. However, ours is a capitalist society, and as hard as Bill Gates worked, he certainly did not dig eighty billion dollars worth of beets with his two hands. Lots of other people worked for him, and in addition to drawing a salary, they piled up wealth in his name, because he owns the products of their labor. Now, I think this is right and just, because I believe capitalism is the superior system, and is more consistent with liberty and dignity than a government-dictated economy. However, taxing away part of his wealth to benefit the lower orders of society is a whole different moral issue than taxing the superior earnings of the best beet digger. Our society is structured so that poor, working-class, and middle-class people turn their energies into ensuring the prosperity of a few. Society needs to ensure the rights and dignity of the folks near the bottom, or you will have a condition that is sometimes near slavery (except in real slavery, the master always had to feed his valuable property, and bind their wounds.)

Making sure that the people on the bottom get educated and doctored is more than social justice. It builds social capital, reduces disaffection, and holds back the tendency to make revolution.

Having mentioned slavery, it's time to turn back to the idea that rights are not granted by government, only protected by it. At one point, yes, most of our constitutional energies went into protecting the people from the depradations of government, which if not restrained might throw people in jail and seize their property for all sorts of favored political or economic parties. The original constitution did almost nothing to guarantee your freedom from the despicable acts of your fellow man. Today, we take it as our right that our neighbor not be able to pollute the water we drink, or hold people in bonded labor, or employ us in unsafe workplaces, or take advantage of us with tricky financial contracts. All of these rights, new and old, you might say, are granted by government, because without government enforcement, we would not be able to enjoy them. And, without them, there would surely be some class of people enjoying the benefits of the whole social situation, and solemnly proclaiming that this was the natural order, and not some system of "rights."

So, there you go, Max. I think health care is a universal right, because you can afford it, and because it's in your interest to do so. (However, I grant, it is really easy to screw up the delivery of health benefits.)

by oz_media

you could have done better than a senseless tirade, but most have become used to it now.

Your comprehension continues to leave you in the dark,as always, misconstruing what is said and also what you read and hear from the media.

by oz_media

I have no problem seeing that my medical premiums ar epaid. I have no problem being held accountable and seeing to myself. If I can't, I have friends and family that are ready to help, just as you or I would help them.

There are many who do not have help or are unable to help themselves, especially paying for hospitalization if denied insurance or unable to pay premiums for suitable care.

I have no complaint that my tax dollars, which I will pay regardless of government supported medical or not, are used to support those who can't support themselves.

I agree that not all those with a hand held out are really in need or unable to support themselves. I also understand that there is no other reasonable way to see that my fellowman is healthy and able to live without forfeiting medical attention due to low income.

All tax payign citizens deserve equal and cost free medical attention. In Canada that is what I want, that is what teh people want and that is exactly why the government would never really challenge it, as with many countries.

Face it, the USA is different. The USA stands alone. The USA is not understood by non Americans. The USA boasts independance and freedom (for some bizarre reason). The USA is...well it's America, isn't it?

by drowningnotwaving

[i]There is no such choice to escape the claws of those who wish to dictate how you live. Name one place on the face of the earth where a person could go and live a life, opting out of any semblance of a "collectivist" society.[/i]

Under your broad definition of the collectivist society - you are right.

Personally, I feel there are degrees of acceptibility and degrees of acceptance - that is, things I truly think are okay/right/proper and things I don't care about enough to give a sh!t about.

So I feel a little collectivism is okay. You've indicated that a little leads to a lot and therefore I (and others) am at the vanguard of the enemy.

Options?

There are certainly parts of the world where you could choose to take your family, live an incredibly opportunity-filled life, pay reasonably low levels of taxation (and legally too) and not contribute exhaustively to other people's health issues. Singapore springs to mind. Whether or not you choose to compromise every other aspect of your life by doing so is a decision completely belonging to you.

Personally I wouldn't. I assume that, based upon other information about you, that you have decided not to do it either.

[i]Answer: It used to be the USA. That's why people FLOCKED to her shores.[/i]

Well, that and greed.

We've discussed this before when you referred to the time from (if I recall correctly) early/mid-1800's to early-mid 1900's (with some latitude under particular leaders). There never was a time in the USA that completely met your ideals. They may have approached those ideals more than now, granted. But people still had collectivist responsibilities and great proportions of the population were disenfranchised from the rights and opportunities available. As a smart, driven, white, english-speaking male without disabilities you probably would have had a dream run.

[i]Moreover, I shouldn't have to "move somewhere" to find it. It should be an inherent right to have it.[/i]

Well, hoping's good. And lets hope also no tumultuous event occurs such that what you consider to be your basic rights are just taken away from you completely.

edit - bits i forgot to type

by Member 25348569

I think you summed it up nicely. The cost of healthcare in the US is grossly inflated by the litigious nature of your society. The costs of new treatments and new drugs spiral upwards and you get to the situation you have now where people can't afford the insurance premiums.

If you could remove the lawyers from the equation to a large extent, costs would drop and your state-funded-but-pay-some-of-it-back model would then work better and would approach the French model for healthcare. That's the set-up that I favour where people know what stuff costs so they don't tend to overuse the service.

I worked in the UK's NHS for many years and I know it's a great idea but getting too big to manage with over a million employees! So you see I actually agree with Max in some things. Not a lot of things, mind you...

Neil

by drowningnotwaving

... is conditional upon disagreement with every other social programme???

Wow - that's a heck of a condition!

That's a very politician-esque way to point the discussion, don't you think?

PS: I have already thought of 4 or 5 variants of the same tactic to use with my wife and house chores this evening, so thanks for that.

by Member 25348569

That's a good point as larger collectives tend to become unwieldy and inefficient - as is the case with the NHS which also needs fixing.

All I was pointing out - as somewhere to start the discussion - was that the US system isn't working very well considering what you spend on it!

by maxwell edison

At what point would you think a collective becomes too large? If 50 million is not, but 6 billion is, at what range does it cross the line?

by Member 25348569

on lots of different factors. Among others, how its structured, how important is what it delivers to the recipients and on the commitment of the participants on the delivery side.

It's not a simple "how big".

This thread is about Michael Moore and his film (which I probably won't see until it arrives on TV) so I'm talking about the US system which although it has a large input of government money is obviously NOT collective.

The US is pretty unique in the West in having no central system of healthcare so what I would ask you to comment on is that despite the current spending of US on healthcare at every level - preventative and curative - is 15% of your very high GDP, you rank really quite low among industrialised nations in the WHO assessment of your healthcare provision and in the health of your citizens.

I don't see any problem - other than the "violation of principles" - why there needs to be a US-wide system with the problems of scale that we both might foresee. Your federal structure surely suggests that it's something that individual states could do.

If you wanted to, of course.

Anything you do, you'd have to winkle the lawyers out of the system first.

by jdclyde

Knock yourselves out.

I did watch BFC, twice. Once straight through, then read up on it and watched it again. It explained a lot of the DETAILS that bothered me the first time. Things that just didn't seem right.

It is DISHONEST for him to present his films as Documentaries because documentaries are factual accounts of what happened. His shows are, as you both admitted, his bias and for effect. He intentionally misrepresents and lies, and people think that makes his films powerful and thoughtful?

Yes, he is a lifetime member of the NRA, but not because he believes NOW in what they truly stand for. He is NOT an advocate for LEGAL ownership by private citizens, and he only used it in the movie as a way to get close to Heston so he could pull an ambush interview. To blame him or ANY legal gun owner for the shooting that happened when this little boy found [b]a stolen gun laying around the crackhouse [/b]that he was living in, and shot the girl at school. No one noticed the gun was gone, or that he took it to school. Who was and is to blame? The mother that put him in that home and the brother for running a crack house and having stolen weapons laying around. Not rocket science here.

Speaking of rocket science, did you know that the missile shop that he was partially blaming isn't a missile shop? They put satellites in orbit. Why would they go through in the quiet of the night? Hmmm, maybe less friggen traffic?

Sorry, but I seriously have to question peoples motives and rationality that support Moore based on the contents and representations of his films.

Side note, the REAL documentary makers dislike him and what he is doing because his works of fantasy are NOT documentaries, yet are pushed as such by dishonest people.

by tonythetiger

[i]I have no problem being held accountable and seeing to myself. If I can't...[/i]

why even say it? If you intentionally participate in risky behaviors, why should society be responsible for what it does to you?

by oz_media

First of all, JD, I want you to know that I agree completely with your views on Moore and also agree that stupid pepople will take him at face value. Unless really digging into his comments one would be easily led astry.

BUT...you must see that this is also happening just the same from the right wing too. Just look at all teh disillusioned Americans who used to post here, justifying iraq because they were saving their childrenfrom being burned by Anthrax etc.

It ws just extreme right wingpropaganda, and it worked. It worked so well in fact that at onetime, most Americans stood behind the Iraq invasion.

As time has shown otherwise, many of these people now see reality from global reports and have since turned against the occupation.

It's politics JD, just spew, covered in more spew and topped with a good helping of BS.

Sure there are some who lookinto it, and either pick for or against these issues based on thier own research. But as you suggest, there are many who just follow blindly and believe whatever they hear. Such as Iraq having access to nukes, which teh Republican administration had confirmed was false, just hours before airing the chance of impending doom from Iraqi nukes.

Of well, at least [i]we[/i] are all straight up and above board. LOL, have a good one. :)

by oz_media

"why even say it? If you intentionally participate in risky behaviors, why should society be responsible for what it does to you? "

What I mean is that if I can't pay premiums or am unemployed and can't aford health care, there is support. The government offers a low income rate and if you are unemployed it's free. That's what I mean by "if I can't (support myself)".

Smokers are denied medical attention because many insurance companies won't cover smokers. So, if a person has a habit (no different than drinking, over eating etc.) they should be able to get help. Us insurance would deny them that support, but in Canada it's not a payment made due to teh person smoking, so there's no disqualification or qualification required. Ifsomeone needs medical help they get it, no matter who thety are, and that's teh way it should be.

If you don't feel that way, why not send all your smokers and drinkers to Iraq instead of healthy soldiers? Thier death is cost free andnobody is willing to help them out, they chose a dead end and that's what it'll be, no help for them!

People have a right to choose thier life, if that life is shortened by 30 years due to habits that can't be broken, well that's thier sad demise. This still doesn 't mean that if the person is run over by a drunk driver or put in hospital for intervening in a fight or something, that they shouldn't get medical attention.

I don't care who you are or what you do, you don't deserve to die or lose medical service. We are human, I believe in looking after eachother, I don't know everyone who needs help, so Ican't help them out.

My tax dollars are MUCH better spent on health care than war. I don't think there are to many Canadians who feel otherwise. If i didn't like it, I would move, I'm not a Canadian citizen. But I don't like the US systemas it is simply a corporate money grab and is becoming more and more political each day. Nope, won't move there that's for sure.

by dadspad

Wish to save typing :)

Maxwell you said: "The problem with compasion is when people presume to be compassionate, but with other peoples money."

To me there are two issues here. One is compassion, the willingness to help someone that is unable to do it for themselves. To assume that all people can fix their own problems just is not true. Second is the "other peoples money". I will guess you are talking about tax money. Tax money should be considered common money. That is it belongs to everyone, with elected representitives deciding, with public consent, on how it is spent. (Yeh, I know this is a whole other topic, but lets go on!) If some of this money can be spent on health care to prevent problems or save lives, that is good not bad.

Tony: I see your point on people taking advantage of the wellfare system. I get ticked off over some of the abuse to the wellfare system also. But, that is a different topic. This is a disscussion on Healthcare for those that do not have the money for care or on problems that the current healthcare system has.

Not everyone is abusing the system that need help. For instance, there are rural areas that are in need of assistance and do not accept any kind of wellcare assistance. But the area is so low in economic help that people and kids are suffering from inadequate healthcare facilities and staff. I do not call these people poor, the have pride, happiness, family and friends for support. But an inadequate healthcare and education limits their choices, including some of the ways to "live in order to minimize ther risk of medical expences" others take for granted.

Your example of gambling may have been not the best one, as this is as much of a disease as alcholism, but I do get you point. But there could be innocents envolved, how about his wife and kids? Do they deserve to suffer also?

Tigg, I never forget about you. :x
But, I know you can defend yourself and need no help from me! :)

YES! Tort reform is needed, but they just keep limiting the ability to sue the medical industy, instead of getting rid of incompetent doctors. They also keep limiting the number of doctors being trained, and do not make the jobs better for registered nurses so they are leaving. I wisk I could say it will improve soon, but I really do not have much faith it will.

One of the points I am trying to make is nobody is perfect. Much as many try to limit the risk on health risk, the rules seem to change over the years and what seemed safe at onetime, causes cancer later, then even later is beneficial to your health. Seems I remember eggs, milk and chocolate being in this category. :) There are also many different life changing events that some people cannot believe will affect them until it does.

I only wish for you the best.

Note: I took a long time to write this, I am at work, so that took precedence and my wife, Chris came by with our grandson to show off. :^0

by tonythetiger

doesn't it?

[added: hit enter too soon]

[i]People have a right to choose thier life, if that life is shortened by 30 years due to habits that can't be broken, well that's thier sad demise. This still doesn 't mean that if the person is run over by a drunk driver or put in hospital for intervening in a fight or something, that they shouldn't get medical attention.[/i]

The problem is, the consequences aren't limited to high medical costs, but by shortening their lifespan, the money that person would have paid into the system will have to be made up by others. It's a double whammy.

We need accountability that will stick. It is unfortunate, but some people need an "incentive" to do right by society. It's the same problem as with other social programs. Eventually people will lose incentive, or go to where incentives are better, the result being more and more people taking and less and less paying. When that happens the government will have no choice but to ration service. And how do you think the bureaucracy is going to decide how it is rationed? They are going to decide that one person's wellbeing is more important than another's.

You know as well as I what the criteria will be for determining that!