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No Smokers

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I don't know how many of you have seen the news stories about companies who are not hiring and even firing people who smoke.

My sister works for Weyco who made the CBS news Friday for firing 4 employees who refused to take a breath test.
She is interested in your comments on this.

Further, a local college has decided to not hire any new employees who smoke. Also, they will not promote any existing part time employees who smoke to full time positions.

Both the company and the college claim they are doing this to control health care costs.

Both state there is no "next" lifestyle issue they plan to limit.

In a somewhat related development, the city of San Fransisco has a law pending to ban smoking in all city owned outdoor public spaces.

Now, I have never smoked.
I love the smoke free workplace.

I believe that your employer has the right to limit what personal activities you can partake while at work.

Your employer also has the right to discipline or fire you for engaging in illegal activities outside of work.

Bottom line:
Should your employer have the right to limit your participation in legal activities while you are not at work?

Chas

156 replies

by salamander

As a non-smoker, I don't have a dog in that fight, but I think it represents a slide down a slippery slope when employers start regulating non-work legal behavior.

It sets up a precedent, as you said, for other "lifestyle issues" that could be limited. There are any number of hazardous legal behaviors that people partake in outside of business hours: drinking, skydiving, motorcycling.

In my non-expert opinion, I think that it represents an unreasonable intrusion upon one's personal life. It seems to suggest that an employer's interest in one's labor exceeds the individual's interests of privacy. To me, it smacks of paternalism, and I don't care much for that.

I would hate to look forward in ten years, to find that I have to get a note from my employer saying that it's okay for me to go rock climbing on a Saturday. I haven't asked my mum for a note for field trips for school in many years, and I don't want to have to start asking my boss for one.

by hal 9000

Many years ago I used to partake in the occasional Classic Motorcycle Racing of Historic Motorcycles.

Now my Boss was not to impressed with this idea of having his State Service Manager likely not turning up to work after a collision on the race track one week end.

His solution after asking me very nicely not to partake in this sport where I told him where to get off was to think about it for a while and them approach me and say well since we can not stop you from your recreation activities we would like to sponsor the race meetings so I put him in touch with the Organizers and the company promptly paid a decent amount of money to the Officials and didn't even want their company name listed on anything. However they always sent me away somewhere when a race meeting was coming up so I was never available for the actual races as I was elsewhere in the State doing some sought of training course teaching dealers or the like.

Of course the Organizers where very happy with this but I had to constantly appear before the relevant committees and explain just why I was not at the race where I had entered. After this happened several times I worked it out as to why they where sponsoring the races just so they could have prior notice of the race meetings and arrange training courses to coincide with these for me to run.

The really funny thing however is that I was very unlikely to suffer any form of injury at an actual race meeting but it was a lot more dangerous at the private practice days that I used to go to as there where all capacity bikes on the race track at the one time.

I really thought that they had gone to a lot of trouble for 2 race meeting per year and I didn't tell them about the Interstate meetings that I started attending.

Col :D

by salamander

That's a funny story, Col.

A friend of mine who was into motorcycles (her uncle is a motorcycle cop somewhere in Britain) ran into a few raised eyebrows in her job as a prim and proper secretary for a Catholic church with a hobby like that...

Sounds like you just weren't sneaky enough with your boss! Bet you didn't get away with much stuff as a kid without mum and dad finding out, either? :D

by oz_media

Absolutely not, I am even against illegal activities outside of work having repercussions at th eoffice, within reason of course.

Example: I hired a guy once who was the best floor manager I have ever worked with. His abiltiy to motivate and train staff was second to none. His attitude was simply infectious and every one absolutely loved him.

He was battling alcoholism though. HE was an absolute piss tank when NOT at the office. When I first met him, I knew he was an alocoholic, but he was not drinking or drunk at work, impeccably dressed and groomed. My attitude is always what you do on your own time is 100% YOUR business and NOT that of the employer. Had he come to work late or hungover, had it effected his performace and the way people saw him he would hae been fired, but it didn't. Therefore it is NOT my concern nor my problem. Same with pot smoking, Vancouver offices would be BARE if they fired people who smoked pot, the Island would simply cease to be.

So NO, as long as what someone does has NO effect on their performance at work, it is absolutely NONE of the employers business. That's almost like saying you won't hire someone who is gay. It is pure descrimination without any question about it.

In your sisters case it is also absolute crap, I would LOVE ot see that company's personal research the PROVES smoking employees cost more sue to health costs, I am assuming from sickness, sore throat etc wher ethe employee would not be available for work due to smoking. IT is an absolutely ridiculous concept and an even more insane rule to put into practice. Las suit here I come.

Who cares what some smoking reports of studoes show, HAS THIS EFFECTED YOUR EMPLOYEES? If no, then it is 100% descrimination without any room for question at all.

If it is an issue of people in the office not liking the smell of smoke when th eperson returns to th eoffice, well that is sad and WEAK at best but talking to the employee about wearing a jacket zipped up to protect their clothes fromsmoke and chewing gum would wuickly rectify the issue.

This just screams lawsuit, I would be in court in less than a week, draining my former employer of his wealth so I could use it to but cigarettes.

How ridiculous! Next thing on the tabke I suppose is people complaining about people who smoke in public, I dare you!

That is pure s**t Chas, and even with you being a non smoker I can see that you would respect other people's right to kill themselves if they choose to. I would LOVE for a boss to tell me I was fired for being a smoker! It would be like stopping work and winning the lottery in the same day. That just wouldn't fly in a Canadian courtroom, the boss would be broke and headlined in the local paper as a complete fool the next day!

Sorry to hear about your sister, talk to a corporate lawer.

You know despite my complaints about the government there, despite my complaints about ANY part of what America stands for, your employment laws alone would be enough to send any Canadiamn running. What a farce it is when companies are allowed to gain such rights, cert requirements are bad enough down there, employee wages are a complete joke, but to impose on my personal life... just try it. YOu guys really need to fix your emploment system and start supporting employees instead of the corporations that abuse them.

by thechas

Oz,

I did not in any way mean to imply that my sister is having any direct problems from this.

Like me, she and her husband are non-smokers. So they are not directly affected.

Interestingly, when they administered the breath test several non smokers tested high for carbon monoxide.
In order to keep their jobs, they had to submit to urine tests and were sent home (with pay) until the test for nicotine came back.

In the employers defense, the policy was announced over a year ago.
Stop smoking programs were offered.

Chas

by oz_media

I thought your sister had lost her job due to her being a smoker,my mistake.

I still stand on my point about smoking outdoors though.

In the city thee is SO much CO, just from traffic alone, that it is very common to get headaches all the time and end up quite sick. Vancouver, when compared to larger & more congested cities such as Seattle, L.A. New York etc., is seen as a relatively clean air environment too. Smoking cannot be seen as harmful or banned outdoors. They can't even stop people smoking weed in public places nowdays.

I think I have a right to smoke in public, IF there is sufficient fresh air circulation of course.

As for the company in question, while I don't think it's any of the company's business what I do outside of thier premises (that part still baffles me).

I do think that IF I was to deem it okay to test me, they have at least offered notice and help. I would actuallly be grateful if an employer managed to help me quit smoking. They have given me a pay raise without it costing them much, what a great idea!

But the whole premise of the company being able to dictate what I do on MY time and away from thier office just seems wrong. A little leads to a lot, right?

Testing employees at a company for cigarette smoking is just outrageous to me, though I'd take the free program if I could quit (both work and smoking) afterwards. :)

by hal 9000

Why I do not work in the US the employment laws are at the very best pathetic. The last time I was over there I was taken out by the head of the tech support arm of one of the big computer companies and after a few drinks and the like the talk turned to pay rates and quite frankly I was horrified at the low pay rates and even worse entitlements offered to workers in the US. For what that person was making and all the aggravation that came with the job I wouldn't even pick up a screwdriver for that type of money unless I was about to run it through the paymaster.

Sometimes I wonder how a lot of the US people make ends meet and then we hear about the high cost of having employees and just how much better it is to outsource these jobs. Personally I would Outsource the CEO's and the like and employ real workers who produce something rather than pay under worked "FAT CATS" to do little more than punch a few keys on a keyboard and think that they where working hard.

Col

by suugar

Sigh.. famous last words...'they are not directly affected'. Whether one likes it or not, smoking tobacco is still legal (well maybe everywhere but Kalifornia)..lol The nonsmoking bandwagon was hitched long ago as a catch-all excuse - we needed someone to pick on - America needs a scapegoat. While it's very true that some people grow ill and may even die from what's attributed to an assault on the body by smoking, so many factors are not taken into account that I will continue to remain very suspicious of the 'statistics'. One course in statistical analysis made my hair curl enough to know not to believe anyone's statistics unless you have a clear understanding of the background data. That's not normally shared.

Just so this doesn't become a war between smokers and nonsmokers, I think smoking stinks, gives you bad breath, makes your clothes smell awful, and you just don't smell clean even after a shower (after having dressed ). It permeates everything if you smoke in your home.

I've also smoked for over 35 years...still smoke. In an attempt to beat the odds tho, my current doc has asked me to quit. I only go to the doc if I'm dying, which is the reason for 'current' doc. I haven't had one in very many years. So.. I now only smoke outside. OK, so I'm motivated by the temperature. Going outside when it's -30 or worse, just to have a puff really makes me wonder at my sanity.

Unfortunately, I'm also 'fluffy' (a term used by us that are overweight but don't consider ourselves obese - what an awful term! ). Anyway, I have a genetic heart issue which was just diagnosed, and I was relieved that it had nothing to do with my smoking. My weight, however, while NOT the cause of my issue, certainly contributes to my breathing. Serious - pulmonologist has given my lungs a clean bill of health and capacity, but my weight is starting to cause problems (not serious at this point).

Quandry...I figure my time is at hand to do something about the smoking so I continue to beat the published odds, but the less I smoke, the more I munch.

Anyway, that's my problem ;) The story was to illustrate that the evil that is called smoking doesn't affect everyone the same, and to show that our weight is as much or perhaps more instrummental in our collective inability to stay healthy as anything else. Environment is never discussed during these debates either, because if a person that gets cancer has lived in a city where they commuted by public transportation and have sat at bus stops for years on end, sucking fumes from traffic and public transportion, sprayed their hair with copious amounts of hair spray to keep it in place, and worked next door and downwind from that smelter, then someone might just have to include those factors in their determination of what damaged the lungs.. eh?

At least in the United State of Alaska, what that employer is doing is illegal. An employer has every right to discipline an employee that abuses break times whether or not to smoke, abuses lunch breaks for whatever reason, or doesn't appear for or leave work on time. However, what an employee does on his/her own time is NONE of the employer's business. Will they next do a calorie count of your food intake? After all, if your colesterol is high, it MUST be because of what you're eating...................................

btw.. you live on the wrong side of the tracks - our employees only live in 'this' city and in 'that' neighborhood.

The death of a nation happens slowly.. a little freedom goes here, a liberty goes there, and before you know it's even happened..... people are disappearing, the ones remaining wear insignia to identify them, and history repeats itself.

But HEY!!! it doesn't direclty affect me.. I'm not the group in the barrel THIS go-round..............

Suugar...

by cp7212

I have never smoked either. My dad smoked and it killed him. Both of my parents smoked when I was a kid and I spent a lot of time in and out of the hospital with asthma and pneumonia up until I moved out of the house. It is clearly a health hazard.

This is like the seatbelt law. In the state of PA, auto drivers need to wear a seatbelt and it is enforced by law. You'll do it because we tell you to and that's that.

I don't think being fired or not hired because you smoke outside of work is right. It seems like another Big Brother thing again.

This has always been a split issue for me. I don't like my insurance costs being run up by other people that don't care about their health.

I went out with a woman whose mom had emphysema. She was on a breather with medicine for when she had attacks. After she averted an attack, do you know what she would do???? Light up a cigarette. Try to figure that behavior out.

I can see this will be a weighted discussion. I hate to say it, but I have not known many smokers that have asked me if I minded if they smoked around me. I love the smoke-free workplace, also.

I think quitting smoking should be something that someone wants to do, not has to do. That's my vote.

by zlitocook

Who needs to be out of site of the others.
As smoker but I think it represents a slide down a slippery slope when employers start regulating non-work legal behavior.
It sets up a precedent, as you said, for other "lifestyle issues" that could be limited. There are any number of hazardous legal behaviors that people partake in outside of business hours: drinking, skydiving, motorcycling.

In my non-expert opinion, I think that it represents an unreasonable intrusion upon one's personal life. It seems to suggest that an employer's interest in one's labor exceeds the individual's interests of privacy. To me, it smacks of paternalism, and I don't care much for that.

I would hate to look forward in a few years, to find that I have to get a note from my employer saying that it's okay for me to go rock climbing on a Saturday. I haven't asked my mum for a note for field trips for school in many years, and I don't want to have to start asking my boss for one.
If my boss wants a person with what ever he needs all he has to do is look into the data base, that is scary.

by jardinier

on and off at various stages of my life -- smoke free for 12 months now -- I know the power of the craving.

Not all smokers kill themselves through this habit. Generally speaking it would take 50 a day for 20 years to seriously damage your health.

I have seen a documentary showing the incidence of cancer among tobacco-chewing baseball players.

I think people should be allowed to do whatever they like in their own homes and in their own time.

And I note Oz's experience with an alcoholic who was highly productive.

Some of the greatest music and no doubt other works of art have been created in a drug-induced state -- the most often quoted instance being Rachmaninov's 2nd piano concerto, although this is not proven.

Salvador Dali was also into drugs.

To the best of my knowledge every society throughout the world and throughout history has used some kind of mood-altering drug.

Alcohol consumption is very costly on the community in many ways -- time off for sickness -- domestic violence -- pub brawls -- medical costs.

Why not ban ALL alcohol use, if you are going to ban ALL tobacco use?

As for seat belts, I believe Australia was the first country in the world to introduce compulsory seat belts for both drivers and passengers. The road toll in Australia has been steadily declining, despite the vast increase in population and use of motor vehicles.

Other factors have been speed restrictions even on major freeways, and police radar speed traps.

by oz_media

The guy I referred to as an alcoholic, NEVER came to work drunk, smelling of booze, hungover or anything that woul dmake you nitice he was an alcoholic. He was very professional and presentable, it was clear form his interview that if it EVER effected his work in anyway, he was gone. He never gave us reason to let him go and he went on to bigger and better things.

I don't know if you caught that or thougt that he could be drunk and still perform.

But I do contest, there have been a lot of fantastic inventions in history with all those scientists on opium and LSD, some of the most famous philosphers and psychologists too.

I wouldn't use this as a case to condone taking acid in the workplace though. :)

by hal 9000

Sherlock Holmes addiction?

That was a very clear indication of someone who is more than capable and even brilliant having a weakness/need to get away from the daily pressures of life.

Granted it was a fictional story but it cuts very close to the bone as well. If something like that was ever to come into Law over here I would move to a different country.

Right now I have someone trying very hard to talk me into moving to another part of the world on a short term basis of only 8 years. The money is great the cost of living even better and if I was to actually go there it is doubtful I would ever return as I would be living like a King and then to come back to this just would not be very appealing. Easy work with no real pressure sought of like paradise.

But I like where I am at this point in time and do not wish to change things too much just now.

Maybe I should have myself seeing a shrink to be cured of this problem that I have.

Col :(

by jdclyde

Now if someone were to, say go out to their car on break....

I used to work in a wood shop building a very big named pool table, and there were several people that were in their cars on EVERY break burning one down.

You could never tell when they were high, because they were ALWAYS high.

I wonder about the testing though. For example will second hand smoke show up as if I am a user and cost me my job? My wife is a smoker that has quit about 10 times in the last 8 years and still goes through a pack a day.

I know, if we raise the price of smokes AGAIN people will quit. (you may laugh now...)

by jardinier

I fully understood your posting.

Now here are a couple of stories from the good old days (when you were allowed to kill yourself without government intervention).

Journalists are known to be heavy drinkers, although when I worked for a short time in the Commonwealth Public Service, drinking after work was very popular.

On the SMH, if there was no news around, it was acceptable to go to the pub to while away the time, as long as the boss knew where to find you.

One particular journalist who was actually drunk most of the time, was treated with compassion by the bosses. As long as he got his work done, nothing was said.

But here is a classic story. There was a graveyard shift on Police Rounds from about 11 pm to 7 am. The quite senior reporter who did this shift, used to curl up in the back of the car with a flagon of red wine.

He was doing a post graduate course on frogs or something, and so needed the sleep.

HOWEVER, on one occasion he was so pissed that the car driver had to phone in the story.

by hal 9000

If it was here in AU the companies involved would be before the Anti Discrimination Board so fast that they would not have time to pick up their Legal People on the way.

Now particuarly in a job that has a lot f stress related problems just how does a company or individual come up with the idea that banning smoking by all employees will make their Medical Insurance cheaper? If the people do not have an outlet for their pent up frustration they will eventually end up in Psychiatric Care or become an Alcoholic.

And then I suspose the companies and individuals involved will start stopping hiring drinkers and people likely to suffer stress related problems. I suspose it is one way to empty any IT department but is it a good idea?

Col

by awfernald

1. Direct quote of the 4th Amendment of the US Constitution:
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
2. Obesity is quickly becoming the number one cause of sickness/medical expense in the U.S. (in other words, smokers now, fat people next, tell that lady down the row to quit sucking those bon-bons).
3. I notice the policy was "smoking". Did this policy also consider "chew"? Did the company pursue people as avidly for possible drug/narcotic use?

It seems to me that this company screwed up by putting someone in charge of policy and enforcement of policy who didn't really care about individual rights.

Even in a state that has a "work at will" law, in which case, an employee can be let go at any time for no reason, the company in this situation did bad. They should have just said they were letting them go, with no explanation.

It's very difficult for a lawyer to pursue a case of discrimination, when the defendant doesn't tell them what "area" the discrimination was in. Then it becomes more of a burden for the plaintiff to prove the case. (Have to prove dismissal was for smoking outside of hours, then prove the rest of the case).

by jdclyde

If this were something that I chose to partake in (I don't) it isn't their business as long as I do not do it on work hours.

I know many companies lose a lot of productive time during the day because of the addicts need to run outside and get their fix every 20 to 30 minutes.

If people are able to get a little self control and not waste company time to get their fix, then the company shouldn't have anything they can complain about.

Can you say "law suit"?

I know smokers are the latest group people like to kick around, but I see it going too far, too fast and they will start kicking back.

by hal 9000

Where loosing more production time than the smokers when I was managing the workshop. The smokers tended to leave it till the breaks for a fag but the people addicted to coffee always seemed to be either going for a coffee drinking one or returning the dirty cup.

Yes I do smoke and maybe I do have a vested interest but I certainly never had any problems with smokers in any of the places that I managed although the gossip around the coffee machine was a different story.

That machine seemed to me at least to have its own little group of worshipers constantly around it the faces may change durring the day but there where always people around it whenever I passed the thing.

Even after a really abusive phone call I would send staff out for a smoke to calm down as I certainly didn't want them being approached by the next customer while still worked up by a previous one, but generally I would be joining them as after it became apparent that they couldn't deal with the customer I would get the person passed to me so I had to deal with them. I certainly felt walking away for a few minutes was far better than punching holes in the wall or something equally as bad.

Although I may have been wrong on the last one as someone pocked a hole in an internal wall with something and the next abusive customer who walked in and started going off eventually asked what caused the hole and I just replied the last person like you. :D After that which was a throw away line he calmed down and was very nice so much so that he still calls me today for help and that is more than 25 years ago that that happened.

But there has to be a relief valve in every business or the staff go stir crazy and you loose control or worse start loosing profits.

Col

by jardinier

When I was working in the Public Service I was told the true story of a clerk who got so sick of his job that he threw all his files out the window onto the busy city street below.

by montgomery gator

jdclyde wrote: "I know many companies lose a lot of productive time during the day because of the addicts need to run outside and get their fix every 20 to 30 minutes."
....
My company has no restrictions on hiring/promoting somokers. They even did away the $20 extra they had to pay on health insurance, so they do not even have that penalty. Regarding smoke breaks, though, my company solved the problem of smokers taking excessive breaks by making the entire property, not just the building, as non-smoking. Smokers have to wait until their lunch break to smoke, when they can leave the property and go out to smoke. This also solves the problem of cigarette butts scattered around the entrance and around the parking lot, and solves the problem of having to go through the cloud of smoke at the entrance that some buildings have that allow smoking on the property, but not in the building. Smokers just have to have enough discipline to go 4 hours without their nicotine fix, and the ones I know and work with are able to do it.

by oz_media

I worked in one office where they HAD to wait for scheduled breaks for a smoke.

In another people took their breaks when they wanted to, no fixed coffee/lunch (which is prety common nowdays). People were just responsible enough to only step out for a quick smoke if needed (5 minutes maybe)but that was in stead of a coffee break. If they took 3 quick breaks in the mornign and three in the PM, it was no big deal because it pretty much added up to coffe breaks, PLUS lunch hours were more of a break in themselves. Poeple wanted to get work done so they just had a smoke when needed, all in all they ended up working more than someone with scheduled breaks.

As for people saying 10-20 minutes for a smoke break, what are these people smoking? It takes 3-5 minutes to smoke a regular cigarette, especiall when smoking alone because ther's no conversation, just pack in a few good puffs and go back to work.

by jdclyde

I always thought that looked real poorly on ANY business where you have a group of people hanging around outside (no matter what the weather) smoking.

Am I the only one to notice while ash trays are provided, they are rarely used?

I don't have a huge issue with smokers in general (I am married to one) but it does seem like they could at least pick up their own Cig butts before someone kicks them in the butt. Real nice going down the road and see this too. Are cigarette butts bio-degradable and I just didn't know it? Or if it is small it doesn't count as litter?

Bad enough Canadians paying to have their garbage dumped in the US (thanks OZ), but that at least goes to a landfill, not the road in front of my house.

by dafe2

We did the same thing.

Leaving the office every twenty minutes isn't acceptable in this day and age..........nor is the mess left on the property.

If you can't go four hours without a smoke then stay home.

by house

Smokes are reserved for lunch breaks and 15 minute breaks. If someone is cutting out every half hour to have a smoke, that is a different issue altogether. If there are no standards in regards to the break times, it is up to the individual to manage his/her breaks accordingly.

I can understand where an employer might have a stereotype in mind when interviewing a smoker - for that reason, I will never have a smoke before showing up for a meeting with a potential employer.

As far as smokers being less productive, that is an absurd assumption, but not an uncommon point of view.

by hal 9000

I thought I got away with a lot. But after having kids of my own I'm not so sure now as I always knew when they where less than truthful with me.

But I really only got into trouble for the big things that where a no-no of the time. However think of it today if I did what was done to me all of those years ago I could go running complaining to the Social Workers and they would place me in "Protective Custody" for my own protection and I could run riot. I had a good laugh with one Social Worker who insisted that these children where really "Little Angles" and really could do no wrong apparently this was in some text book and she could reason with them to prevent their anti social activities. She went the whole Hog and got them taken away from their parents and placed into Foster care apparently one day on one of her scheduled visits she was beat to near death by these two with cricket bats apparently the reasoning didn't work. After a 6 month stay in hospital and the Government Agency not being able to place these two little brats with any carer they returned them tot he "Abusive Family" which they had to be removed from and within 3 weeks they where again well behaved little kids.

The sad thing is that it nearly killed her and had their parents listed as abusive to get it through her thick skull that not all children are little innocents. Mine where horrors and I'm the first to admit it.

But back to that job the State Sales Manager was a sneaky sod and to this day I'm still not sure of exactly how he got me to work there. It all started out with a problem machine which I was asked to have a look at because the owner was a rat bag who already had legal action against the competition for some unreasonable thing and since I had to deal with these people I thought it might be a good idea if I "Scratched their Backs" a bit at least that way if I ever had a problem I would know where to get help from. Well I fixed the thing in about 10 minutes and then gave it to one of the machine demonstrators to fully test just to make sure that there where no other problems that I didn't know about.

Well he came in and said "What are you Doing? I'm not paying you to sit around smoking!" I just told him that it was now fixed and I was waiting for the girl to confirm that it worked perfectly and incidentally I'm doing you a favor who ever said anything about payment. Well it went downhill from there and he told me that his Tech was snowed under so could I help him out a bit?

Nothing easier as I hated sitting around twiddling my thumbs so he pointed me in the direction of a rack of incoming repairs and let me loose. An hour latter he came back & again I was sitting down smoking and he again hit the roof so I just pointed out that all the work he had offered me was not only finished but was done to the satisfaction of his Tech. Naturally he didn't want me touching the new stuff only the trade ins which where a mishmash of various brands and models. Again he said something about not paying me to sit around smoking and I said Well I really want to make sure that the unit that I came in here to fix is perfect and I'm not leaving until I'm sure it is.

Apparently he was unwilling to believe that I had fixed it in under 10 minutes as his tech had spent days on it before it was sent to Head Office who had it for 6 weeks and even when it came back it still didn't work properly so out of desperation he asked me a dealers tech to help him out.

Well within 6 weeks I was State Service Manager and I'm really not sure how that came about as I once had held that position and had sworn that I would never again take on another job like it. I never filled in a form to work there or anything just one day he walked up to me handed me a set of keys and told me that I was now on Full Time and the car came with the job. I seem to remember his tech quitting and walking out straight away something about a separation or something which he didn't handle too well so I was asked to help out a few days a week till they could find a replacement. more of "You scratch My Back & I'll Scratch your's." Durring those few weeks I only answered the phone once when everyone else was busy and naturally with my luck it was the CEO ringing for the State Sales Manager. Just my luck but I did have a lot of phone calls directed to me by the receptionists for help from the dealers.

Actually I'm still at a loss about just why I was working there as I never actually agreed to do the job only help them out a bit and he already knew about the Classic Racing as it was well known just how I mistreated myself in the industry. I had a reputation for doing excellent work while at work and being one of the best Techs that was ever around "But that was all according to the dealers so they didn't know much better anyway." But unfortunately everyone knew about the motorcycle racing it was a left over from designing and building race cars and a nice break from my every day work. So even if I didn't want to mention it. It wouldn't have mattered as it was a well known fact particuarly as my wife was known to turn up in the Kombi with the race bike in tow along with all the spares and so forth for a weekends play. I never hid the fact as to me it was just none of their business after all they only paid me for when I was there not 24/7 and owned my soul into the bargain.

The really funny thing was once the company was brought out by the makers so they owned the AU rights to sell the machines things went to hell in a hand basket and out of sheer desperation I walked in one morning and handed my resignation to the guy who Had somehow conned me into working there only to find out that he had just faxed off his resignation and he pleaded with me to stay on as I was the only one holding the place together {While good for my ego it was really a crock of s##t.} But they got in a salesman who was so insecure that he really thought that I wanted his job so he was forever defending his position and constantly trying to put me down. Eventually after a very bad day where I had completely ignored his every instruction he came out with it and claimed that I was after his job which I just laughed at and said that the company didn't have enough money to make me do that work and while I might be a passable tech I was certainly no salesman and sure as hell no desk jockey I was more than happy where I was and the reason that I had refused to do as he instructed me to was that what he wanted done simply was not possible and I certainly was not going to attack a brand new machine in front of the customer by ripping its guts out and replacing 1 lousy bit then reassembling it all again. It just didn't inspire confidence in the product to see things like that happen by a new owner.

The one thing that did get me about him however was when the new CEO came up and I got into a blazing argument with him over some service that I had done for a dealer we where totally on different sides of the fence with no common ground and here was the State Sales Manager agreeing with both sides, I just burst out laughing and we all retired to the nearest pub for a few drinks. That was nearly 20 years ago now and it is still like yesterday as while I didn't like the job all that much the stuff that I was working on was just nice to play with if only there where no end users and no Office Politics it would have been the perfect job. The really Idiot thing was that the new Sales Manager thought for some reason that he had control over me and that I answered to him when actually I answered directly to the AU Tech Manager and only had to be nice to the State people as I had to work with them but I was in no way responsible to them I didn't even submit my monthly expenses to them but to head office through my immediate superior again at head office. I don't think he even looked at them actually he just passed them on to the accounts section as there was never a single question asked or maybe my Boss beat the accounts down before they could approach me about anything. But I never really claimed for anything much and if in doubt I just paid for it but it was for things like taking dealers out for meals and the like when I was out of the Office or when I had a group down for training I would take them all out for a meal and a few drinks whatever they wanted to do. Actually I just hated filling out the paper work so I tended top forget it most times and I was constantly being chased for these forms. :D

Col

by salamander

Hah, hah... My Parental Unit's theory was to give me enough leash to see if I'd hang myself with it. I think that, since I was the oldest child, this was some sort of experiment. I never did manage to hang myself, so all's well that ends well. I think that they realized that I had enough sense not to get in out of my level. My younger brother, however, is another story. He still thinks he has something to prove to the world, even as an adult. I keep thinking that he'll grow out of that, but it hasn't happened yet.

Not all of the little anklebiters are innocents; I'm with you there. Some grow up into even less-innocent adults that wind up spending time in orange jumpsuits with pretty metal bracelets. :)

by jessie

I quit smoking 6 years ago, and most days I'd still happily light up. Quitting smoking is HARD! It takes constant vigilance and extreme willpower. As far as I'm concerned... smoking is a handicap... and should be treated as such. Some people just cannot quit... no matter how hard they try and how much they know they should.

My mother, who has smoked for 30 years now, and is diabetic, arthritic, has LUPUS, high blood pressure, and a heart condition, has TRIED to quit smoking many many times. She KNOWS how harmful it is to her health. She's a NURSE for crying out loud, but she just can't make herself quit. The biggest problem there is the fact that she's already pretty overweight... her dr nags her to quit smoking, so she does, and gains 30 lbs... and her dr nags her to lose weight, so she starts smoking again and the lbs immediately drop off.

A company has the right to say what you may or may not do on their property, but as soon as you leave work, your life is your own. They can't fire you for being fat, and there are JUST AS MANY health issues, if not more, related to obesity. Which is also something you "should" be able to control... but how many of us find it easy to lose that excess weight?

You cannot be discriminated against on the basis of your health. I smell a HUGE lawsuit here!!!

by salamander

Good point, Jessie. I had forgotten about obesity...I can really see this being the next thing for employers to "regulate."

I now have a mental image of the archetypical school lunchlady being rehired in corporate America with the sole function of snatching candy bars from the fists of repeat offenders during work hours. :)

by jdclyde

Do you maybe see this as leading up to other "risky behaviour"?

Many of the laws against the homosexual act aren't out of hatered, they are because they are more prone to pass disease.

I don't think they could ever get away with that one, but on the other hand just try to get a job or health insurance if you have AIDS or the like.

Never known anyone with it, but from what you "hear" about it, it is impossible. Even cases of people who tested positive because of a mistake at a lab that DON'T have anything are cooked.

by tony hopkinson

Those laws were passed well before AIDS came on the scene. Any exchange of bodily fluids has the potential to pass desease.
Hmmm there is far a greater instance of time off work due to pregnancy .....
One of our local new MEPs was stupid enough to say that he would never employ a young woman because she was likely to get pregnant at some point. In public to a journalist !
Do we see a court case or two on his horizon.

by hal 9000

If you knew just how many surgical staff had actually contracted this virus from their work and continue to work.

Of course they are very unlikely to infect anyone but the real problem is with the patient as there are as yet no real tests for HIV the best that can be said is that we can find no trace of this Virus not that you do not have it just that there are at this point in time no indications that you do have it.

But with all surgical staff they do not have a complete history of all their patients all the time so they just run the risk and are far more likely to become infected by the patient than they are to infect a different patient.

Col

by tomsal

Just last week a local radio show brought this up, how some guy who owns a 200 employee company will not hire smokers and will fire anyone who wasn't a smoker but starts smoking after they are hired.

The radio show host agreed that employers have the right to do this, the rational was "Its a free will state" (if you aren't familiar...many US states are fee will states...it means you can quit for no reason, but you can also be fired for no reason given also..I disagree with this btw)...Anyway since its free will you can choose to work at another job if you disagree with the rules at the current job (in this case no smoking allowed), therefore the employer is doing no wrong.

Me personally, I think legal activities should have no bearing on my employment, unless they influence (negatively) my duties on the job.

Illegal activities, I think is different, if I was a boss -- I would fire any one using drugs, or who is an alcoholic, for example.

-tom

by jdclyde

If someone has "a problem" and goes into counciling you can't fire them in many cases. After the whole movement to label alcholism as a disease, they are now "sick".

This was another part of the lowering of standards and personal accountability for the most part.

by house

...but I maintained and excelled in the workforce while under the influence of various substances. I don't condone that sort of behavior, as I am typically clean nowadays, but I think that it is more of a mind-set when it comes to missing shifts and poor performance.

There are many businesses where a certain type of questionable patronage and management will actually promote the business at the client level. Strange as that may sound, just know that this is a fact. However, I don't see much room for it in the corporate IT environment.

by oz_media

Yeah I said I would quite the day they hit $2.00 pack. AT that time it was about $1.45 a pack, which I thought was atrocious!

When my existing smoke finishes burning aeay in the ashtray, I am left with one. I will then smoke that last cigarette while walking to the store and coffee bar. I will then get my free mocha, which si THink is great because it saves e a precious $4.00 a day and then proceed downstairs to the smoke shop to spend $9.00 on cigarettes.

My defense, they NEVER hit $2.00, they jumped from just under 2 to about $2.50 and then within one year hit $5.00. You tell me how a teenager is supposed to afford smokes without leaving school and getting a job! :)

Oh well, one of these days......

by tony hopkinson

Raising the price doesn't solve anything. In the UK a lot of the tobacco bought is smuggled into the country and you can save ?2 a pack. All raising the price did was cut down profit from legal sales and make some very rich people. Also now everyone who smokes bootleg cigs sees it as a cost cutting measure.

Apart from restaurants and bars 99% of work places are smoke free. Legislation is soon to make that illegal as well.

I have to go outside for one at work, I don't have a problem with this as by law I must have a ten minute break every hour from staring at the screen anyway. Suitable time to light up and try and figure out the annoying bug in the previous fifty minutes work.

Some employers have banned smoking anywhere on their premises, one guy got sacked for having one in his car in their car park at lunch time.

Can't see this situation flying in the UK at the moment though we are not far off. Even if it does it will be wrong.

Fun thought will the tobacco companies be pursuing this in their workplaces ?

by oz_media

All the decent peeler bars (or the few that are left ) have these little smoking rooms in them now.
Most pubs have a group of people hanging outside like teenagers in a high school smoke pit.

Apparently waitresses had thier health protected by the workers compensation board, if not it is considereddescrimination as these non smoking employees cannot take a job at a strip bar. :p

Most of the girls are strippers,Hells Angels wives and girlfriends (they own(ed) many of the Vancouver clubs) or heavy smokers themselves anyway. You go outside for a smoke and there's the waitress, that you are protecting, having one herself!

Most bars and restaurants still let people smoke (especially regulars) and will take the fine if isssued. Instead of ashtrays they just leave saucers laying around so you can use it and they can play dumb by saying they didn't notice,but they haven't provided you with an ashtray.

Soon we'll be asked to wear a gold star like the Jewish segregation of Nazi Germany.

Don't laugh, it could happen!

by admin

Are the health insurance companies promoting this?

It would make the pool a little more affordable.

by jdclyde

Increase profits maybe, but lower what we are paying in? I find that unlikely. But I am just that way.

by jdclyde

Unless you are only counting from the time they walk out the front door till the time they walk back in.

If you talk from when they leave their office/cubical, meet up with smoking buddies, walk out front, maybe even take an elevator it takes at least the 5 minutes in just walking time (which is good for you?)

Most smokers I have seen rarely smoke alone.

There have been articles over the last few years talking about just this. Where people were actually STARTING to smoke just because they saw the coworkers getting more breaks.

by oz_media

In any office I've been in,people LIKE to smoke in groups and will during scheduled breaks. Someone slipping out for a quick smoke is not welcome to start taking friends.

I've generally worked in large offices where people are running thier own day and take breaks as needed, even if for a game of pool or horsehoes on the balcony.

In smaller offices or my own offices I have never seenti as an issue. You need a smoke? Let me know you're going and I MAY join you and 'take 5'.

Then it's back to work. I have no problem with teh 2 hour liquid lunch at the pub though, people have jobs adif those jobs get done then I have no interest in anything else they aer doing. Musch like when I used to hear, "so and so is playing Hearts all day", I don't care, if 'so and so's' quota isn't met and his customers are complaining, then I will address time management issues myself.

I hate that "gee look what JOhnny's doing" stuff as I am way too laid back. I work with professionals and I expect preofessionals to work with. It is up to them to manae thier time, not me. I pay them, or are paid myself, to do a job, if it is done, if people don't complain I am happy and the world keeps turning, without me babysitting.

by montgomery gator

Oz Wrote: " I have no problem with teh 2 hour liquid lunch at the pub though, people have jobs adif those jobs get done then I have no interest in anything else they aer doing."
...
Oz, I normally, I do not flame people for their spelling, but it looks like you just got back from drinking your lunch at the pub when you typed this :-)

Anyway, my employer is not that enlightened. They have a policy that if you consume any amount of alcohol during lunch, they do not want you to come back to work that day (and have to take leave time to make up the difference).

by jamesrl

Its not Oz's garbage, its mine....

Actually not my home garbage from the suburbs, but my workplace is in the City of Toronto, which ships garbage to Michigan.

Its been somewhat controversial. Kerry threatened to stop it immediately. Its also controversial because it was a backstop - the first proposal was to bury it in a mine in Northern Ontario, but that was killed on environmental grounds. No other community wanted it at the time. My own home community burns garbage and generates electricity, but smoggy Toronto wanted to avoid any additional air pollution.

Michigan wanted it, and won the contract. So trucks driver the 400 or so kilometres to the dump site. Ten years from now we will have to have found another site for Toronto's garbage.

And as for being neighbourly, we actually take in hazardous waste from the US and process it. So if you'd rather stop the garbage coming in and keep the hazardous waste, that would be ok by me.

James

by jdclyde

I know it isn't OZ way over on the other coast, he was just the only one I KNEW was a Canadian so was just a little rub.

The trash and garbage I don't mind as much. I do mind the sewage sludge that gets shipped into the US because they don't want to polute their own land. And it is just a handful of people that actually are in favor of this, the people that own the landfills.

That was one of the backdrops locally in Michigan for the Democrats (Stabenow) that they would stop this. Of course after she got in she did nothing nothing and more nothing. Did us all proud.

by jamesrl

There is a government sponsored program to spread the sludge on Ontario farmers' fields - they do treat it, and claim its safe for food crops.

I've seen the facility which does the treatment - a series of geodesic glass domes(anyone remember the "Starlost"). My cousins who farm won't allow it on their farms.

Of course, closer to Oz, the city of Victoria BC still dumps raw sewage into the ocean....

James

by montgomery gator

Since Canada is approximately the same size as the United States, but has only 1/10 the population, it would make more sense for Americans to pay to have garbage shipped to Canada, than the other way around. There is a lot more empty space in Canada, and most of it is empty wilderness, anyway (just yanking the chains of the environmentalists) :-)

by jamesrl

If you divided the square miles by the number of residents, you'd be right, and many Americans picture us this way.

But the reality is that Canada is more urban than the US, and most residents live within 150 miles of the US. Southern Ontario is particularly densely populated - and that is the area which is struggling with finding places to put their garbage. Michigan is closer than "northern" Ontario wilderness. The proposal that was shot down was in Northern Ontario - it was to bury it in a very deep pit mine.

But as I said, we do take American toxic waste as some of our facilities have advanced treatment methods and capacity to take it on.

James

by jessie

As a tech-type, I found that once I quit smoking, I stopped learning all the coolest new fixes. All the best techs are smokers... I still believe this! And I'm not a smoker anymore... but sometimes, I go just to hang out with the smokers and get the latest trends.

As a smoker, you're relegated to one area of most businesses... all the smokers gather for their fix... discuss the newest software/hardware bug and voila... instant brain-storm session! Smokers ARE more productive... cuz they know better and do it right the first time!

by willcomp

Taking such logic a step further. Recent research has shown that obesity is about as costly from a health care standpoint as is smoking. Can anyone imagine the fallout from discharging overweight employees?

Smokers are easy targets and get little sympathy from the PC (politically correct) crowd. Now overweight people would be another matter.

No. Employers do not have a right to control legal activities away from work. They can require that you show up sober, but cannot prohibit alcohol consumption. Taking my analogy above to the extreme, employers could control eating habits.

Someone needs to sue their butts off. Probably will and should win if they have a decent lawyer.

Dalton

by tomsal

Actually the law protects ONLY against discrimination...

You can't discriminate based on race, sex, age, religion, etc.

Aside from that you really can say if you smoke here you can't work here.

Its amazing, and I disagree with it, but its the truth.

by jamesrl

I heard an interview on CBC radio with the President of Weyco, the company involved. They did do some legal homework.

Not that I care to defend them, they are a healthcare company and they promote a healthy lifestyle with the customers that they interact with. And its been a multi year multi stage process. First they stopped hiring people who smoked. Then they offered help to those who wanted to quit. Then they made the whole facility a non smoking site. Then they gave many months of warning and offered again to help people quit. Those who are trying to quit, by receiving counselling and being in a program, are exempt. Its only those who refuse to quit, or are lying about whether they smoke that will be asked to resign.

Personally, I think its gone to far - and I am a non-smoker. But then I was against drug tests for most people (heavy equipment and nuclear operators excepted). I think that people should be judged on their performance.

James

by dafe2

To be clear...........I quit smoking after 25 years.....been off them since Dec 26, 2003 at 10:30am (But who's counting).

I now think of smoking as a pathetic, gross, smelly habit.

Incidentally, ex smokers are the most vehement oposers of smoking. We're a very un-sympathetic bunch.

Companies & Government have no business basing employment offers or termination decisions based on 'smoking'. It's tantamount to not hiring a social drinker or as others mention, over weight individuals.

Although I 'dislike' smoking.....there's still a person behind that cigarette who has something to offer.

by jdclyde

It was written by a Doctor and blew me away.

His idea was that smokers die earlier, so they don't end up on the long term care for the elderly.

This shorter life, though from Cancer or what have you, still costs less than the elderly long term care.

No BS. I will have to see if I can find that and post the link.

And they are doing a great service to our country as there must be about $10 tax per back by now. As politicians say, "that is a lot of revenue".

So all non-smokers should say "thanks" to every smoker they see for everything they are doing for us.

by oz_media

That actually cropped up when they were banning smoking in bars and restaurants without segregated and conditioned smoking rooms.

It does make sense, especially at OLD age.

I don't see how this will efefct working people though. They can generally go to the bathroom unattended and don't need Handy Dart to pick them up to go to the mall. They don't require walkers and motorized scooters etc. T

So elderly people do cost a lot to keep healthy and happy as thier needs increase, just as when we are babies we need all that extra stuff and it costs money.

In the case of the 45 year old banker, I don't think it's the same. If he kicks off from a massive heart attack while on the job that's one thing, but anyone can be a health risk.

Now that I think about it, when will they start banning obese people and doing body fat tests to ensure your health. Or controlling your diet and carb intake?

Ever seen that movie, the name slips me now, about a kid who was born with human genes in a world where most have the DNA perfected and he takes on a crippled mans identity in order to enter the space program and become an astronaut?

They used DNA profiling to accept only the best 'manufactured' and healthiest employees to reduce risks.

I'll think of the name in a minute I'm sure.

One thing leads to another, would this be the first step of only hiring healthy employees?

What a way to cut yourself off from possibly hiring a better producer due to a stupid company policy!

by tony hopkinson

always feels good to do a community service.
I've been smoking for 28 years with probably a total of three years off in varied attempts to stop.
But my sickness record is almost perfect, aside from breaking my foot playing football and I've barely had a day off in 22 years. Visits to the doctor can be counted on the fingers of one hand. However I walk 40 miles a week to work and back , used to be a keen footballer until I broke my foot and still remain quite active. Now if you're an overweight couch potato who likes a smoke, a drink, and two or three big macs a day they may have a point.

by house

I read that the wrong way. I thought you were conscious of the pun in the title of your post. I guess not. I'll shut up now.

Firing fatties!

by jdclyde

You have to cry to the right people I guess.

There was a guy at GM that got fired for sleeping in the bathroom, he got his job back thanks to the union.

As for a private citizen, you have to go for counciling and all that crap.

I have personally seen people that were about to be fired take off on "stress leave" so they couldn't fire him. Lasted for over a year. Just got to know how to play the system better than the people you are playing with, I guess. OR (I know this is crazy) don't do anything to get fired over. Hmmm.

by oz_media

As I read your quote, I laughed right away just knowing where you were going with it! Well done! :D

You're right though, but I am generally mixed in with upper management and C level employees somewhere and they always drink at lunch, then they don't feel like working afterwards and we usually go to the golf course to drink some more and try work again in the morning.

I wouldn't let someone work drunk either.
I have no problem with someone having a drink at lunch though, even if a long lunch, and neither have many of my past employers as long as work isn't effected.

It's accepted if you don't smell like booze, puke in the elevator and wear the secretary's skirt as a hat...they should have written that policy before I went for lunch. :)

In England, for example, a pub lunch is almost a given for many companies. They make the best food anyway.

by mrafrohead

What I do at home is my business and my employer can STF OUT of it!. If they have a problem with it, it wont' be them that is severing ties.

When I'm on the clock, it's a different story though.

If I were an employer, I wouldn't hire smokers unless they agreed to NO SMOKING at all during their shift, including breaks as I don't like the smell.

They're the ones that are always taking all of those "extra" breaks during the day. Screw that. Not to mention, they stink the place up.

And before y'all get on me for my opinion, I used to smoke. I smoked for 6 years.

I honestly believe though, what you do on your time is your business. I wanna shoot up and then make gay porn off the clock that's my business. My employer can piss off if they think they are going to discipline me for that. As long as what I do on my time doesn't affect my work performance, they have no right what so ever to complain. And if they do, I can go work somewhere else.

mrafrohead

by oz_media

I feel much the same though. My time is my time, if you want to pay me 24/7 I'll think about it.

I will disagree on ONE issue but in your case it is a prersonal and hypothetical point. "If I were an employer, I wouldn't hire smokers unless they agreed to NO SMOKING at all during their shift, including breaks as I don't like the smell."

Okay fair enough, but as a smoker I see two types of people who have quit. The "reformed" smoker that says how terrible and gross it is and encourages those around him to quit because it stinks and is gross.
Then there's the smoker who quit but accepts that just as it was damn hard to quit and understand why people smoke and why people want to smoke, thus accepting it.

Years back when I finally tackled a coke problem, I was still working on he road and surrounded by mounds of it and people doing lines EVERYWHERE yu looked and I mean EVERYWHERE. Roadies, artisists, business managers, visiting businessmen you name it, no industry or line of work is too good for a coke user. In fact the more successful people are, the easier it is to support of course.

But I never expected people to stop around me (and yes it stinks too, even if just through the pores).

I understand that MOST people in the industry did it (not as bad nowdays) and just lived with it as part of thier life, at least it wasn't part of mine.

Nowdays I see more cocaine use in business than in rock bands. Bands don't have th eluxury of getting all f-ed up anymore, the schedule and expectations are far too demanding and you will quickly be passed over if you don't have it together.

SO yes, what i do on my time is MY business, full stop.

If it effects my work, it is my employers business.

But I wouldn't hold it against those who don't smoke and have patience when it comes to being around the undesireable people I've worked with.

Finally got a break from the grind and made it to TR again?

by mrafrohead

I've been really busy making some custom installers. They've been a bear.

@Oz:
"Okay fair enough, but as a smoker I see two types of people who have quit. The "reformed" smoker that says how terrible and gross it is and encourages those around him to quit because it stinks and is gross.
Then there's the smoker who quit but accepts that just as it was damn hard to quit and understand why people smoke and why people want to smoke, thus accepting it."

I wouldn't call myself a reformed smoker. I look at it like this. Since I have quit, I absolutely can not stand the smell. It makes me sick to my stomach, as does the taste. I don't know why, it just does, which is ironic because I used to love the smell and taste. This even applies when I'm putting away a fifth.

I could give a shit less what you do with your life, or anyone else in regards to smoking. We are all adults, we all know the consequences of it. I don't need to preach, as it is a breath I can better spend on something else where someone really wants to hear it.

But my outlook for MY business would be, no smokers out and out. And if you DO want to smoke, do it after work not before as I don't want to smell it, nor do I want my customers to smell it. Not during breaks.

Smokers in my experience, take many more breaks than non smokers. They do it because they "deserve" their smoke breaks. They are their "right". Well it's my right to have an establishment that only smells like bongsmoke and inscence, and it's my right to not have it tainted by filthy cigarettes.

And it's my right to have a hard working employee that doesn't need to go outside every thirty minutes to light up for ten.

Screw that.

I dont' care that people smoke, but if it's my dollar that's paying you, you won't be doing it on my time.

Again though, I believe what you do when you aren't at work, is YOUR business..

I wouldn't care if you were out robbing banks and shit like that, that's your choice. Just don't do it on my dollar. And when you're on your own dollar, you do whatever the hell you want, because it's your dollar, not mine.

Although maybe secretly **shhhh** I wouldn't want smokers smoking on my shift because it makes me sad when they die. We just had a lady die last weekend from lung cancer. She was a true chimney. Nice woman, what a pathetic and sad reason to leave. At least if I didn't allow it during their 8 hours, then I couldn't be held responsible in any way (in my own head, not legally) for them hurting themselves. But this last paragraph is probabably for another thread.

mrafrohead

by hal 9000

Now days with all the outsourcing the company owns you body and soul 24/7.

Well that is how some of the Bosses thing anyway. Personally I think it is time for a reality check!

Col

by thechas

I agree that the potential for this practice is very scary.

As stated, my extended family is not affected by this specific policy.

They are very concerned about what might be coming in the next few years. As am I.

That is part of why I started this thread. People need to keep a watchful eye on both their employer and government.

Chas

by tony hopkinson

If you go to a doctor in the UK
I feel a bit ill
Do you smoke ?
No
Do you drink alcohol ?
Hardly ever
So it's coffee then, Try decaff. ?
LOL
Where would we be without our drugs.

Herbal tea very good for you, but glass of camomile and spiced honey and you need a full pack to take the taste out of your mouth.

by jdclyde

legal drugs = good

If there isn't a law against it that will make me someone's beotch, then it HAS to be good.

TV wouldn't lie to us.

by tony hopkinson

and I didn't, who knows may be I'd be yo beetch.
LOL
It's far more addictive than many of it's illegal cousins, far more dangerous too, just has less impact on your ability to work, well as long as you can have a regular break.
Got to watch them TV types, they believe escalation is down to the drugs themselves as opposed to the pushers.

by tony hopkinson

In my industry I'm not allowed to come into work, or to respond to an out of hours phone call if I've had more than 10% of the drink drive limit. No drinking during work hours at all.
Four pints the night beore will put me over that limit if they care to test. Also all new starters have to go for a mandatory drugs test, they got that in on Health & Safety regs for heavy industry.
They do warn you though, so I managed without my usual malt nightcap the night before mine.

by tony hopkinson

Great when do I start ?
LOL
The time nazis I work for insist I turn in everyday, you'd think they didn't trust me or something.

by oz_media

So YOUR ideal company wouldn't hrie a smoker, that would be your choice, but you'd probably have to create some other reasons for not hiring people, I think th ediscrimination suits would flow in pretty fast.

You know what I mean by the 'reformed smoker' though. The one that still hangs out in the company smoke pit and tells everyone how they quit after 2000 years smoking 8 packs a day and how everyone is stupid and should just quit yada yada.

As for your dream shop, cross the border (north) man! Open a Hemp store and sell t-shirts, growing books, skateboard stickers and bongs to the mellowest people all day !

"NO YOU CAN'T HAVE YOUR DAMN MONEY BACK!!"

"Oh, okay dude, that's cool, uuuuh...can I buy another one then?" :D

Sorry to hear about your coworker, if I had half a brain and wasn't expected to think up 'super ideas' all day I'd proobably quit too. My father's side of the family has a history of throat cancer, so it's just a matter of time really.

One day I'll get my act together, unfortunately probably when I have to and it's too late to really help.

Oh well, at least I know I'm a dummy, that's step one I suppose. I quit once for a year and a half when I was about 18, then I started again...DOH!

by oz_media

I had a job as a sales manager for a high end audio store when I was 18. I used to spend ALL my time at the strip joint between the two malls where the stores I worked at were located.

Yes I was underage, but I spent many paychecks and dragged a lot of people in with me, so they turned a blind eye on it.

I had customers drop by the store and the owner would tell them to find me at Kelseys down the road. I would buy them a drink and sell a steroe while at the bar, then walk to the appropriate store with him.her and write it up, before inviting them back to the bar for another drink.

It was in credible, my first REAL job where I made really good coin and I was allowed to wllow my days away with friends in the bar.

Maybe it's the Brit in me or something, but every job I take seems to find me in the bar most of the time. Even in my last F/T IT gig I was a block from the bar where I would spend hours a day with various clients and coworkers. Like I say, it can be pretty lax in BC.

Actually since moving here and leaving the grind I spend less and less time at the bar, I get too involved in doing my thing to stop for a drink a lot of the time.

by oz_media

I have never worked IT in England and most of my mates there are tradesmen or musicians, so drink is part of life.

So what field must I avoid there then?

by oz_media

Stan Ogden, Hilda Ogden's obese husband that worked as a window cleaner with Eddie Yates.
Egg and chips with a pint of bitter, day and night, until one day checking out.

Don't know if you'll follow that one but you probably remember it. ;)

by tony hopkinson

Eddie did all the climbing. I've got a bit of a belly myself, sort of an aggregate of all the times I've attempted to stop smoking. Rarely eat chips, and bitter is nearly as good for you as a stout, so it can't be that.
Got to put some physical effort in each day other wise the only exercise I'd get would be once a month. Not sure Stan got that much.

by salamander

"One of our local new MEPs was stupid enough to say that he would never employ a young woman because she was likely to get pregnant at some point."

Totally unbelievable. Unfortunately, too many people think that way. While I hope that it doesn't affect you personally, Tony, I hope that this guy gets some severe humiliation for that kind of commentary.

Perhaps he should do some calculations on work time lost to golf? I bet that accumulates. :D

by tony hopkinson

I do Manufacturing Process Control. Not a good idea to remotely change a program that runs an 800HP motor driving steel at 70m/s and 1100 degC next to someones nose, if your not paying attention. Coming into work, way more dangerous there are trucks that squash a normal family car and the driver would not notice. They can't even see you when your within 20 feet. Wheels on the things are about 10 feet in diameter.

Which is how regs got in. Come in to work drunk and it's 99% certain you'll lose your job. After any accident you'll be tested for drugs and alchohol, either one and it's jail or the sack, unless of course you are dead.

by hal 9000

That was what started me smoking all those years ago and when I worked in a class 1 clean room I even had a half full ash tray and packet of smokes sealed up in a clear plastic epoxy on my work bench. It did raise a few eyebrows but no one ever said anything to me.

In that job there was not all that much stress and you couldn't just walk out the door so we had to make do but in every other job I've ever had it has never been an issue.

About the only time I can relate to what you are saying was after a prolonged stay in hospital where I couldn't have a smoke and I will admit that everything did stink but they had me tied to a bed with tubes hanging out of me everywhere and within 2 hours of escaping I was smoking again. But durring that ride home I did complain that the car stank of tobacco smoke and I couldn't even stand to have an ashtray near me for a while but I did get over it and even if I was back in the meat-works a week latter with a collapsed lung which had nothing to do with the smoking but was a complication from the surgery they measured my "lung Capacity" the only one left working and complained that I didn't really smoke as the one working lung was putting out more that most people with two good lungs. My Auntie who smoked 3 packs a day for well over 40 years had a fall and suffered severe head injuries and the medical staff simply would not believe just how much she smoked and even insisted that she had never smoked in her life because she didn't have the symptoms. It was only when one of the nursing staff who knew her told the Doctors that we where not lying that we where believed. So different things affect different people in different ways. Currently I'm telling my GP that I'm cutting down and I suck peppermints to suppress the urge for oral gratification and what did I get "Good Boy, NO BLOODY WAY," I was told I would end up being a Diabetic so I just dumped the peppermints and took up smoking again. Some people are never happy no matter what you do. :(

Col

by dafe2

Tell you the truth I have three hobbies:

1 - Boating ( I run a cigarette boat )

2 - Classic cars - I just finished rebuilding a Jaguar - a '52 XK 120

3 - I was a boxer when I was (much) younger.....I still keep a heavy bag in my office for those 'really bad days'.....I tend to kick the cr.ap out of it about once a week.

LOL

by hal 9000

Today it is smokers, tomorrow fat people and what next?

Not to mention that smokers tend to be less stressed in general terms so they do not require the therapy that a lot of the nonsmoking stressed people do.

The whole thing is crazy unless of course it is applied to the people who wish to run for Politics then it just might make some sense. Maybe they can even weed out the lier's in the process as well! :D

Col

by jdclyde

When you get people with a taste for power and a more emotion than thought they start passing all this "for our own good".

In Michigan, then passed through a measure to give the cops the ability to ticket you for not wearing your seatbelt. This passed with it specifically stated that you will not be able to be pulled over for now using the seatbelt, to lead to other charges.

Well after a few years, (you guessed it) they ammended the law where they can now not only pull you over but they now will do road blocks randomly checking for seatbelt useage.

Our governments won't outlaw smoking because they get too much money from it, but they will put in all the regulations to protect us from something they say is all legal to buy.

I mean if you can't smoke in a nudie bar, where can you? Is nothing sacred anymore?

by hal 9000

In taking breaks as they would go to the coffee machine have a gossip about what was going on in the office or the looks of so & so on TV last night or whatever. Those who walked out and smoked with me tended to talk shop most of the time and with us at least it was a break from the grind where we could throw ideas around to solve problems.

But those Damed Coffee/Tea machines tend to do just the opposite and from my experience always seem to have a crowd around them worshiping the things or just talking about nonbusiness related things.

I've yet to find a decent tech who doesn't smoke they just all seem to and it seems to just be part of the job as some form of stress relief which is a lot cheaper than the shrink bills that would other wise come along not to mention the lost time away from work while they are seeing these people.

I'm just the opposite I would be unlikely to employ any coffee drinkers rather than smokers and I really hate the smell of Percolated Coffee which my wife just loves. I try to stay away from home when she has this stuff on.

Col

by jessie

People who post on tech forums all damn day! ;) Get back to work, ya LOSERS!! :p

by jdclyde

all by it's self after a couple few months.

This is different than getting herpies or the other real nasty ones.

VD's have been around for a long time, that is why these law have been around for a long time (yes, before AIDS).

Not advocating this type of action to be taking, just pointing out the next step it could be taken to.

by jdclyde

if I ever trade my pocket protector in for a scalple.

With all the privacy laws protecting the people that are KNOWN to be positive, they forget that while you are protecting the persons feelings, you are risking other peoples lives.

When you read about people that know they have AIDS and intentionally infect dozons after that, they should get murder one, and lock them away or stick a needle in their arm.

by jessie

There are teens in the U.S. who purposely go out and contract AIDS. They think it's a cool disease to have. They see all the drugs that people can take to SLOW DOWN the progression of the disease, and they think it's curable, but they'll get sympathy from all their friends because they've got it!!! WTF!?!?!

And then... there's the women who KNOWINGLY conceive children after being infected, or knowing that their partner is infected... yeah.. watching your kids die of AIDS is loads of fun!

IMO... all of the above people should be sterilized and locked up together so they can't infect anybody else.

by jdclyde

And people think I go off the deep end.

Careful not to lump everyone with AIDS into the same camp.

I think it is a small number intentionally doing the spreading, but it makes the headlines.

THESE few yes, but I like the idea of the needle for them.

by jdclyde

You would not believe how many people think I am making that report up. As a non-smoker, why would I?

Yes saw that show. Guy is a big name too, just can't place it. He was a "gods child", and had a bad heart.

They are already talking about DNA testing for if you are PRONE to certain conditions. REAL scary stuff.

by jessie

Gattica. They tested him as a baby and he was "likely to develop" a heart condition...

And wasn't it Leonardo DiCaprio?

by jdclyde

Stars: Ethan Hawke, Uma Thurman, Jude Law

I guess I never knew the name in the first place, because that doesn't even ring a bell.

Uma, mmmmmmmmm

by jessie

:) I frequently get clients with equipment that they find thoroughly frustrating and they threaten to throw it out the window. I tell them, in order to get a really satisfying crunch, you need to throw it out of at least a 4th story window, preferably the roof of a better than 4 story building. Unless you're at least 4 stories up, you don't get a very satisfying splatter pattern.

by tony hopkinson

Uma Thurman was the female lead. Damn good film though and one of the scariest uses of genetic tech, short of designer employees.

by pokerjohn

I didn't read all of the responses, just too many. But I
understand both sides.

Let's say I start up a consulting firm with me and three
employees. I would not knowingly hire a smoker. And if it's my
company I should have the right to make that decision. I would
even take it a step further. If I like to play golf and would like to
go on company golf outings, I should be able to hire just middle
aged men who play golf...if I want to. It's my company, I make
the rules.

Having said that, I don't like the government telling companies
they must be non-smoking OR that they can't fire people
because they smoke. I don't like the government involved either
way.

On the health issues, two of my grand parents, my mother and
my older brother all died in their early to mid 50's ... all due to
smoking health issues. So I'm not buying any argument that
smoking is not a health issue. My mother and brother were sick
for years before they died.

The entire issue of smoking is like politics and religion. Too
much passion for people to be swayed one way or the other.

John

by dnvrtechgrrl

Regardless of what you do (or do not do) in the privacy of your own home; the company should have, within reason, the right to limit your activities regarding their out of pocket expenses toward your well being. That's just fiscal common sense.

As a smoker, I can see where my employer wouldn't want to continue on paying out of pocket for my coughs and colds every year, considering many of them could be eliminated by quitting. Don?t beat me yet?

However, obesity rates are growing at an alarming rate in this country, in part due to our outrageous dietary habits and sedentary lifestyles. Are overweight people next on the hit list? Can my father, who has dedicated 30 years to his company, be rightfully terminated because of his weight? Does that not also contribute to the high cost of health care expenses put out by an employer? How about health affects caused by a legitimate disability?

Furthermore; I've moved to an area of the country that has an abnormally high rate of cancer. There are countless chemicals seeping into the land from farming, cattle feed lots, industrial zones...

If my company is going to take away my job for smoking, even go above and beyond by monitoring my activities at home, should they then not also be responsible for moving me to an area where - smoker or not - my risks of developing a life threatening disease have quadrupled?

I say take action or don?t; but keep it consistent across the board so the lawsuits can begin and end quickly.

by house

I have a perfect bill of health, and have been smoking my whole life, then again I am still young. I had a huge variety of minor health issues a couple of years ago when I dropped out of the party scene. I've since recovered, as I guess my body chemistry is back on track... anyways, what I am trying to say is that quitting smoking may in fact cause more problems than it is worth (anywhere from stress, anxiety, chemical balance, blood pressure, attitude, social interaction, the list goes on).