Desktop

Ask something
Discussion Locked

RFID

0 helpful
100 replies

by oz_media

Closed to new repliesThis discussion is closed. It stays readable, but it takes no new replies.

Radio Frequency Identification: Just like a smart bar code, RFID implementation is growng in immense proportions. From computer manufacturers, repair facilities, the pharmaceutical industry, WalMart's inventory control and asset management (right down to the manufactuing level) to forestry and even construction, RFID implementation is growing.

At what point does RFID become intrusive though? When I first started studying the industry, I had visions of products in my home being tracked and monitored as to when I use them, when they are moved and when they are disposed of(don't laugh, it's very easy to do). Now as I have learned a great deal more about RFID and it's immense number of applications, I see things in a different light altogether.

If a compeny with $5M in inventory can complete an ACCURATE inventory check in less than 15 minutes, then the possible savings in supply chain management are smply overwhelming.

But again I revert to when is it too intrisuve? After the big issue with Firestone tires on Ford Explorers they initiated an Act, T.R.E.A.D Act, to tag all new manufactured OEM tires so that they can easily be monitored and recalled as needed.

Scenario: you are a 16 year old schoolboy, while sitting on a public bus, a manufacturer has an RFID system installed in it's advertising posters on board the bus. Your Nike school bag, NFL jacket, Apple i-Pod etc. are all tagged with RFID so you can essentially be 'tracked' in real time as to where you go (where you live), how many other people at your school use these products also, demographic data collection at it's best.

Intrusive yet?

BUT, as far as RFID manufacturers are concerned there needs to be some form of TRUST that you have in manufacturer's.

One manufacturer comments;
[i]"The privacy issues under so much discussion really have less to do with RFID than with basic trust. Today, individuals hand over data about themselves to other entities?whether it?s a bank or retail outfit?in return for some benefit. And they trust that those organizations will use the information ethically. There is also a great deal of legislation on the books that enforces that practice. The question associated with RFID is more related to an ?unauthorized? use of data that has been transmitted from an RFID tag. The question then becomes, ?How can unauthorized users use the data to find out about the individual who is carrying the tag?? And basically the answer is that they can?t. Whether the tag carries the EPC or any other bit of data, it is meaningless unless one has access to the database that gives the data context or meaning. There is no personal identification information on the tag."[/i]

So will RFID become WIDELY misused and abused? The US DoD and HomeLand security implements RFID technology for tracking cargo already, they are also looking at ways to track inbound container shipments, for quick customs scans.

So it seems that it all boils down to trust, but at what point do we stop trusting the sources as they becoem so widely used we don't know who we are offering this information to?

As you can see, I still have mixed feelings and the more I investigate, implement RFID solutions, the more I see both sides, a benefit and an intrusion.

What's your take?

100 replies

by dr dij

should get RFID tags in their wrist, to be used when purchasing items. That way we can charge sidewalk user fees based on usage. We can also know where everyone is at all times. Hey, if you're afraid of that you have something to hide.

We'll have to start a new govt agency: Intrusive Bureau of Monitoring (IBM). All free time will be spent on 'volunteer' construction projects to protect the motherland from the current enemy of the day.

Remember, War is Peace. Hate is Love. You are doing your neighbor a favor by turning them in.

Possibly also a barcode on their forhead. Tho it's a little incovenient to drag those things over a scanner if they don't read. How wonderful tho to hear the Sprawl-Mart greeter saying: 'Greetings, customer # 1B0423FE946A'

:)

by dmambo

That's my Sprawl-Mart number, and now you've posted it for everyone to see.

Oh well, Chinese-made crap's on me. Just go to your local store, grab what you want and have them put it on my account.

by oz_media

The writer is referring to part-time tags, being that they are passive until they sense a signal then they respond. WHERE these RFID scanners are mounted would be the key issue though.

They are not about to mount an RFID scanner in your home, the ACTIVE tags (poes with the ability to send out a signal) are extremely limited as far as range and interference are concerned.

The manufacturer does not have the ability to scan items or track items in your home. I think the writer is just a wee bit paranoid/uninformed and jumping to a decision, as I did when I first explored the reality of RFID.

As far as other types of tags go, the pasive tag must be scanned (used for warehouse bay doors where product is scanned as it enters the truck), or active tags which emit a signal but not very well, cannot penetrate liquid, reactive to metals and easily interferred with.

by Former member

How much of that can be overcome by signal boosting though? (I have heard a claim of a successful capture of a passive tag at 30 feet with a 'modified' reader, but can't verify. Anyone else know more?)

by armandocanales

If the people who sign your checks can make
money using RFID...see Rule#1....

Rule #1:
It is in any entity's best interests to do
Exactly what is in that entity's best interests.

Rule #2:
Guess what...there are no other rules...

I'm surprised it needs to be explained to you.

The word entity is used here on purpose to apply
to a person, family unit, village, corporation,
nation...etc.

As long as there is money to be
made/gotten/persued, the history of Corporate
America has proven people like the ones who sign
yer check will make/get/persue it.

There will be no discussion/legislation until a
CEO's mistress (not his wife) whines (on the
company's 48' triple-decker yacht...anchored
somewhere in the Keys for reasons only the
Comptroller knows...) "Honeeeeeee, this thingy
itches...it makes me not want to f#$% you as
hard cause it's distracting"

Then & only then will it become an "issue".

Follow the money. follow the money, follow the
money...

Once again...
I'm surprised this needs to be explained to you.

Just trying to help'
Armando Canales
Engineer at Large...EL

by tripwire3

You say they are not going to mount an RFID scanner in your home. Does that mean TVIO stock holders should be questioning why TVIO is wasting stockholders money registering a patent for just such a purpose. Ref. patent application No. 20050246738
Or is it that TVIO stock holders are all for it. They see the potential, they see to whom this information can be sold.
Granted it creates circumstantial evidence to whom it is sold. So ask yourself in this highly moral, integrity ridden, ethical, responsible, principled, conscientious society we live in, who would be the purchasers of this circumstantial evidence.

by tink!

It's actually scary if you really think about the possiblities of misuse and abuse. When these new technologies are first implemented, we automatically assume that our rights will remain intact and untouched by the wrong hands. But how can you really truly protect everyone from the unethical types? Just as hackers are constantly finding loopholes, there WILL be weaknesses found in these new technologies. It is inevitable. So we really should think about ways to prevent ourselves from being victimized, not just by the organizations that are utilizing the technologies for true purposes, but also by the unethical entities on the outside.
(it's kinda like a sci-fi story turned real life. and just think about what happens in most of those sci-fi stories!)

by oz_media

That's the big issue, what data is available?
In present times, nothing of any use would be the correct answer.

Everythin gyou buy has a bar code, you can scan bar codes and track them by following someone around and scanning it everywhere they go. But what data have you collected?

Answer: 0 839093 7

Helpful? Not really.

Unless you hack into Nestea's host computer, you would never know that the barcode colected above was for a 351 ml can of Nestea Iced Tea.

So data collected does not reflect any personal information on th eusers, AT THIS TIME, and that's where trust would come into play.

I know that a retail product with an RFID tag would only contain product information, not personal information. Any data collected would be useless to th ecollector unless you wre able to decode the corresponding number, as shown above, this number has no relevance and even when decoded offers the collector nothing.

So where is it a "sci-fi story turned real life"? or as your opening sugests "Actually scary"?

by sterling "chip" camden

standards emerge for the format and meaning of the data, the capacity of the tag to store and send data increases, and the tag becomes a node on the world-wide network.

It will happen. The question is how will we protect sensitive information from being broadcast or hacked? And also, how will we know how much information is being shared?

by kaceyr

... to be of any value.

Let's say you buy a tagged product from "Sprawl-Mart" (I like that name), and you pay with a Debit/Credit/Store card, check, or they ask you for your phone number (as many do) when you pay cash. Now the target for the hackers is the id on the tag *AND* the corresponding purchase record in Sprawl-Marts database. This is where the privacy violations come in to play. Not the tag itself, but how it's associated to *other* information.

by choppit

Product numbers are one thing, serial numbers are another. Once serial numbers are recorded on the RFID tag alongside the product information, they can then be connected with a credit card number (and therefore an individual) at the point of purchase.

by tink!

Just because you or I cannot figure out how to access the information that would be of use, does not rule out the fact that SOMEBODY will. It may not be right away, but we must prepare for the eventual occurrence. This is not paranoia, this is simply precaution and foresight. It's like the saying, "give em an inch, and they'll take a mile". If we give in a little and allow such technologies to become natural to us, we are slowly allowing ourselves to be subjected to the eventual attack. Remember behind all those privacy policies and security measures, are human people, and people can be corrupt. All it takes is one bad seed who has access to a particular key part of the process and you suddenly have an a door wide open to the wrong hands.
Just as Identity Theft has become such a problem to be wary of these days, similar problems will arise with growing usage of these new technologies.

by adelariva

As I understand RFID, the significant improvement is that RFID tagged items are "listenened" to and RFID tags store many variables. Instead of a bar code reader having a line of sight to the item, a radio device listens for RFID transmissions.

This opens up all those improvements mentioned earlier: quicker physical inventories, quicker sales (just listen to the bag of items don't have to scan each individually), theft control (imagine a RFID receiver at doorways listening for when RFID leaves buidling, verify if it was sold or not. Other possibilities exist as well, if you store dates on RFID tag for milk, grocers could query milk about to be spoiled. The key is one can store multiple variables in the tag to suit the supply chain needs, it's a transmitting memory chip, not just a number as in bar coding.

I understand the privacy issues as such: Who can listen to RFID tags after sale?

Item number databases aren't much of a secret, recall U in UPC is universal. Every manufacturer gets a portion of the UPC numbering scheme, so the bar codes for items in wal-mart are the same at k-mart if the item is the same. Any business that bar code scans has a nice database of commonly traded items. So it's possible for somone to "inventory" your house or persons if they are in listening range if they had the right equipment. Let's listen for high dollar items says the burglar.

Others mentioned jammers. That sounds nice. Or just the ability for consumers to disable upon delivery. Or force sellers to provide customer with option: Disable RFID after sale or not?

My questions are: what are the transmission/reception distance capabilities of RFID tags? Is the entity that produces the product with RFID tag the only entity that can WRITE to the RFID tag, or can businesses further down on chain WRITE to tag. For example: Tire retailer wants to register customer with tires for warranty, etc...zap the RFID tag with customer number. This would make it easier to verify tires were sold to customer claiming warranty work but opens up other privacy issues.

Just some thoughts...Thought this needed clarification

by mjd420nova

How about the having the tags placed on every
shipment of everything brought into this country.
that way a quick scan could tell you which
shipments have been inspected and which haven't.
Kind of the reverse application but it would sure
speed up the cargo handling and simplify the
inspection procedures. It might also cause
a black market for the devices to sell to the
smugglers. And how about passports and visas??
could sure speed up the customs counters.
Jamming wouldn't be neccesary, a roll of aluminum backed duct tape to slap over the tags.
would sure block out the signals going both
ways.

by oz_media

They are already looking at ways it can be used for customs. As mentioned earlier, the DoD has been using RFID for years now.

As far as foil backed duct tape, it will fool MANY tags and MANY readers, but not all. The Gen2 tags are pretty good now, and that's just 2nd gen.

by oz_media

On how a hacker would;
1) scan a tag (don't know if you know the cost of an RFID scanner or what is involved in buying one)

2)decipher that nondescript number into being from SprawlMart

3)hack sprawl marts main frame

4)track YOUR personal information, hopefully you used a credit card, and then use it to abuse your account.

Considering Steps 3 & 4, is it RFID that's the problem or just that some people may be able to hack North America's largest retail outlet's host computer?
In which case it wouldn't make a bit of difference if you had a SprawlMart RFID tag or not, the guy is into the host system, nondescript number or not, he's gonna hack someone and someoe is gonna lose money. I hardly consider that a reason to fear RFID though.

by kaceyr

... I just want to say that I don't consider RFID to be a threat any more than I consider a gun to be a threat. The potential threat comes from the use of the item, not the item itself.

On item 1, cost and red tape must be discounted. That is, the cost must not be an issue for the person acquiring the scanner, and they're able to side-step the red tape if the scanner they're buying is legit. I haven't done my homework on it, but coming from a family of electrical engineers I tend to think that building an RFID scanner isn't all that difficult. It could be pricey depending on the parts required, but not difficult.

On item 2, the RFID presents a number. That's all (for now). However, to be of any use to sprawl mart that number must be tied to a product in their inventory system.

On item 3, yes, the person would need access to the sprawl mart network and be able to gain access to register transaction information. But this is a threat in itself not an RFID threat. The inclusion of RFID would allow the hacker to limit their targets to customers who bought certain items.

On item 4, once items 1, 2, and 3 are accomplished, the *possibility* for abuse is very real, but as I said above, number 3 is it's own threat regardless of RFID.

But what's the real target and who's the hacker?

I think that the real target here is everyone and that the hacker is none other than sprawl mart itself.

Think about it. We're talking about a purchase history list of items that can be analyzed into purchase practices and preferences of each customer. From this you can create customer groupings and then create marketing and advertising that targets these groups with better accuracy. This is an advertising firms wet dream, and the potential dollar value for sprawl mart in selling this information is staggering.

But wait, corporate executes aren't greedy, right?

Small Post Script here:
Everyone who regards the use of RFID chips in retail should be aware that everything I've outlined here can already be done using the existing bar code system instead of RFID. There are even, at this very moment, retailers who really do sell this information to advertising firms. Most of the time the information has already been consolidated into customer groups that the retailer considers of value, but not always. So if your fearful of RFID, you should certainly be fearful of bar coding. Personally, the "scan it yourself" line at my various local retailers save me a heck of a lot of time. Right now they use bar codes but I really don't care if they switch to RFID as long as it simplifies my purchasing experience.

by faradhi

" a purchase history list of items that can be analyzed into purchase practices and preferences of each customer. From this you can create customer groupings and then create marketing and advertising that targets these groups with better accuracy."

Those retailers will then purchase more items that i would be more likely to purchase. That is what I call better customer service. I like that if I buy a Star Wars, Robotech, and Star Trek the retailer is more likely to stock Sci-Fi movies.

Forgive me, but I don't see the problem here.

by oz_media

Firstly, the scanners are a little harder to make than you may imagine. Certainly you woul dhave an easier time of it than someoe without electrical engineering experience but it still takes years for even the most advanced corporations to create an RFID scanner that actually does what is needed, there are a lot of hurdles to overcome beyond scanning a clean tag on a new product.

As for the RFID issues, I see that you agree the issue is with a hacker not RFID itself, as always.

As far as selling custoemr info, yes it is done quite often, I have bought tens of thousands of numbers from such sources myself. BUT...most companies, WalMart included have a strict policy against such marketing avenues.

As far as a list is concerned, they also don't track PEOPLE as much as products with RFID. They are not even aware of your age or sex most of the time. RFID is used in retail for supply chain management, not end user tracking and no relevant data is stored or collected in the tags...yet.

The idea is that I can tell you how many units are on the display shelf, send a trigger to the warehouse when stock needs to be replenished, send another trigger direct to purchasing when stock in teh warehouse runs low, and even send a trigger to the manufacturer to request more product. The manufacturer can tell how many are selling in teh store (real time) how many are in the store warehouse still and plan runs and production schedules accordingly. This all results in more accurate inventory and manufacturing management, thus lower prices in the stores.

RFID bemefits the chain more than the marketing department, it affords extreme logistical advantage.

by cbalness

My local Grocery Chain has one of those "Convenience Cards" that you scan and get deals on items... does anybody not think that they are compiling data on all your purchases and doing test marketing and other experiments ??

Let's see, we reduced the price on name brand pickles to with 10 cents of the no name brand... do people buy ?? More importantly we can also see if Customer X has bought pickles before and what brand...

Many privacy advocates feel it's nobodies business what Cheesies you buy, what video card is in your PC, what shoes or T-Shirt Logo you wear. Do they have a valid point ??

by Former member

I am not sure that store product tags pose a particulary great risk, yet. I suppose in the distant dark future a scenario like this would be possible:
Girl buys pants in mall, and goes to Lunch Court, smart@#$ hacker punk who has established a back-door into the malls anti-theft system scans tage in pants, and flags as unpurchased. Girl gets grabbed by security for stealing pants, sadly she threw the receipt away with the other stuff on her lunch tray, and spends an unpleasant rest of the day proving her innocence (a bit weak perhaps but I am not a particularly malicious person. Those who are, will find ways to misuse).

The real concern I think is when the govt. starts mandating rfid in drivers licenses, etc. I think at that point you have a fairly serious Identity theft concern.

by oz_media

ou said it yourself, no matter what technology we use, including TODAY'S use of barcodes, someone will work at beating the system and using it for crime. This does not make the SYSTEM flawed thoug.

by faradhi

suggests that RFID is nothing more than a better bar code. The question is not whether these companies may use the information they collect in nefarious ways. The question as it pertains to the technology is how does RFID increase risk.

As far as I can tell, with the current implementations, there is no increased risk. It is nothing but a high tech bar code. The companies are already collecting personal information.

by oz_media

Well said, I was just explaining an RFID application to someone today who said, "I get it, it's like a bar code!" And it is, just collected numbers that pertain to NOTHING without the hosts data to retrieve the record associated with the code.

I actually wish I could describe a couple of the solutions I am working on now (I'm sure you would find it somewhat fascinating), VERY cool applications, VERY useful and a great way of saving lives. No, not for medical use but that is a big RFID user, hospitals and pharmacies, BIG time benefits there!

At an RFID show I attended in Dallas last month, I learned of a dozen new and very useful applications. A few weeks before that I learned of others, today I had two clients call with VERY interesting ideas of how it can improve their business.

It's almost like computers, sure there is information paranoia, but at the same time, we find new and exciting ways to incoporate computing into business every day.

RFID is SO much more to offer than a way to simply track store merchandise, I think RFID is going to really change the way we conduct business and it will make life easier for everyone.

Funny, but the more I read posts of security fear, the more I realize most of it is just fear of the unknown and not really a valid reason to worry about it.

by tony hopkinson

Any supermarket chain can already identify you if you use your card to buy something, and they can track what you buy. RFID doesn't increase risk at all.
Unless you've got a couple of high value items tucked under your parka when you leave!

Anybody talked about tagging trolleys as well and looking at chosen routes through the shop, for layout and advertising effectiveness ?
Perhaps they could use to make sure there were more than three people on the damn tills as well, that would be nice.

by adelariva

I think your comments are right on. But I'd also say, RFID holds more than just a number, it can store whatever the manufacturer decides to write. A barcode is just an item number. An RFID can store a UPC number, dates, MSRP, and a serial number. Each individual RFID tag carries a unique number.

Could someone sneaky make note of the unique RFID number that you acquired and then listen for your presence assuming their transreceivers were close enough? Or perhaps a burglar could just wander a neighborhood randomly looking for expensive items.

For what its worth here's a clip from wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFID
"Although RFID tags are only officially intended for short-distance use, they can be interrogated from greater distances by anyone with a high-gain antenna, potentially allowing the contents of a house to be scanned at a distance."

I'm not worried about RFID, but it sounds like consumers do need to be informed and empowered to disable RFID after sale.

by oz_media

RFID tags are very unsightly and ugly. They are like a big thick bar code label. The labels are placed on packaging, or as removable clothing tags (just as they are now, unless you are Minnie Pearl, you will remove that tag from your hat).

So the tags are discarded once the product is in use.

Thoughts on theft:

In order for someone (burgular) with a high-end (powerful enough) scanner to gain benefit, he would firstly need to hack a manufacturer's database and collect the host information, what the numbers represent.

They would then have to roam a neighbourhood with a very obvious, large and reflective type of antenna, omni-directional or direct would not work (picture walking around at night with a small satellite dish or parabolic antenna).

It would require a pretty sophisticated theif, not your local crackhead looking to get some money for a rock (he'd be selling the hardware for crack long before using it for theft).

A theif sophisticated enough to pull off such a system, would inevitably able to perform his work without the equipment or need for RFID scanning. A typical burgular would not be looking at an RFID solution, I'm sure.

by ozi eagle

There is a lot of discussion about hacking datadases of manufacturers, retailers etc. to get info on the product. DUMB. Just walk into a store with a portable scanner and scan those items you are interested in. Bingo, instant data.

by jason_whiteaker

One poster mentioned the tracking of a Kit-Kat bar. Well, granted that knowledge can be obtained outside of RFID, the RFID technology just makes it that much easier to track preferences. Pretty soon, insurance companies will be interested in that Kit-Kat bar. They'll raise your premiums because you ate a "bad" food that they feel will cost them in future payouts. RFID tags in tires combined w/GPS will soon allow additional road use taxation because of technical convenience.

As for nothing to hide, that sounds like an infosec ambulance chaser talking. Last time I looked (and at least in America), one was innocent until proven guilty. You're advocating the opposite.

Hey Oz and faradhi...if you've got nothing to hide and want to cozy up to the government because of your fear of the bad guys, why don't you provide a token example of your sentiments! I'd be interested in knowing what your current salary is. What possible harm could that cause to us here in the forum? C'mon! Give us some of that transparency you think is so great for mankind! Heck, isn't privacy an illusion? Aren't we in a brave new world where ideas of provacy are old fashioned and quaint?

I'm thinkin' those numbers won't be forthcoming...

by oz_media

Firstly the KitKat post which you happily echoed is a complete pile of crap.

RFID is used to track a pallet or carton, not an individual item, the supply chain has o benefit YET. When they do, the RFID will be on store shelves, not products. Obviously you haven't seen too many RFID tags.

Now if they DID (which they don't have RFID tags ON the KitKat bar, what POSSIBLE information can be extracted that would POSSBILY (even some remote guess will do), effect the purchaser?

I see all these ridiculous analogies and what if's about a technology most people don't have the foggiest clue about, and the examples given are so absurd it's not funny. Tracking a 75cent chocolate bar with a 50 cent tag and a 4,000.00 reader? How do they track you when you leave the store and throw away the wrapper? Is it embedded into the chocolate now, like some kind of alien chip inserted into the brain to help the government read people's minds?

Are the watching you now???? Uh oh, better put your pants back on.

As for salary and stuff, what possible relevance does that have with an emerging technology that has already reduced America's largest retail store's out of stock issues by 16% in one year?

Don't forget to put on your tinfoil hat to scramble teh government's mind reading signals before you repost.

by dmambo

When everything is bought with a smart card, and all products have a unique identifier, then it's not such a leap to expect that scanners will be in place to pick up where and when a product is used. Imagine your car scanned as you cross a state or provincial border. There are some very creative people with no consciences out there who will think up ways to keep track of everyone. Some will do it to make a buck, others will do it for "security".

by oz_media

We were talking RFID, right? How does this equate to tracking ou car or purchases by smart card?

The ONE instance where this will get scary (for som eI am sure) smart chekouts.

RFID has already been tested in a German supermarket, smart shelves can constantly track inventory in the shelf, smart CARTS automatically track all items in the shipping cart and SMART CHECKOUTS will allow you to push your cart straight out the door and have all items automatically come off of your predesignated account (bank card, credit card etc.) no more lineups.

People are too concerned abotu PERSONAL security, as if everyone has a secret to hide about how many boxes of Corn Puffs they buy, but nobody has commented on what a breakthrough this is for the way we manufacture, ship and market goods. It is a MASSIVE cost savings, meaning lower prices in the long run.

As far as SPIES, the cost at this time is FAR too high to make it a feasible idea.

by dmambo

And you're also right that I'm paranoid. I just think that down the road, individual products can be tracked by some agencies for whatever reasons that they have, and the genesis of technology for that is today's RFID.

Diet Coke phone home!

"Hey this Gatorade bottle on the side of the road was littered by that sociopath Oz Media. Let's run him in"

by faradhi

We are tying ourselves up in knots because we think somebody, somewhere, will want to know if we purchase Tidy Cat litter or Preparation H for some nafarious plan.

The profit is obtaining the credit card number. RFID does not increase any risk in this area.

by tink!

It's not what you're purchasing. It's the idea that somewhere down the line, there will be a link from your purchases to some "useful" information about you. Sure, right now the companies may be using it to track products only. But what happens if within their systems they decide to attach that information to a profile of sorts that may include certain types of personal information. Credit card numbers are NOT THE ONLY useful info an unethical person can use. Take a phone number and you can get all sorts of information about someone. And that can lead to Identity Theft or other things.
I'm not saying that we should panic and throw a bunch of safety measures up right away. I just think we must keep one foot on the ground at all times, and realize, despite the best of intentions in the beginning, eventually someone will figure out how to use the system for unethical means.

by oz_media

How is it different than a standard bar code? We have used them for decades now, has teh security risk of bar coding increased? Are you reluctant to buy ANY product because they all utilize bar coding?

by dr dij

that you were AT the Kit Kat Bar :0

when you were supposed to be somewhere else :(

by tink!

[Scenario: you are a 16 year old schoolboy, while sitting on a public bus, a manufacturer has an RFID system installed in it's advertising posters on board the bus. Your Nike school bag, NFL jacket, Apple i-Pod etc. are all tagged with RFID so you can essentially be 'tracked' in real time as to where you go (where you live), how many other people at your school use these products also, demographic data collection at it's best.]

If there is ever a link between the product being tracked and the person who purchased it, than the person (provided they're using the product they bought) can be tracked. Oh sure, it may NOT be possible now, but it is a POSSIBILITY in the future.
In sci-fi films where everyone walks around with a barcode or other type of tagging device, these are usually attached to ALL their information. Granted we are nowhere near doing that right now, but if we continue to give in bit by bit, it COULD someday end up that way.
Again I say, I'm not calling for a panic or stop using the technology, but just to keep our heads out of the clouds. No system is infallible or perfectly secure because there is always the human factor. Humans create the systems, program the systems and run the systems. Therefore there is always the possibility that a human will divert the system or hack the system and turn it to unethical uses.

by faradhi

There are already mechnisims to target advertising. Where is the increase in risk? What does the RFID provide that simply looking at the nike swish doesn't?

by oz_media

the serial number will NEVER be on th etag itself. The CODE th etag repeats will then relate to a database entry for that specific item, which does have th eserial number, shpping address and tracking number if applicable. But these stores have that information now, secured of course. All you get from an RFID tag is a CODE, without the host to match that code to a database, it is useless. The tracking systems used for RFID tags, are being used for more important things than marketing demographics, this is supply chain management right to the manufacturer.

by oz_media

Your comments is to speculative. What can a 'bad' employee at the manufacturer do with RFID information even if it was hacked?

What could/would a store employee do wit hthat same information?

What could/would a rogue hacker do with it?

How would it differ from the security risk behind any other technology we use today, ie. Bar coding.?

by oz_media

Yes there will be more tracking in th efuture, just as there is AND NEEDS to be now due to our ever increasing population makin git easy for the bad guy to simply disappear. The idea is that if you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about.

Can you be socially engineered? Yes, and that's been a possibility since the dawn of time.

As far as tracking a kid on a school bus. The manufacturer may, in time, be able to find out what area it's customers are from, what age group they represent, what other related items they buy etc.
News flash, they can do that now and have been able to for many years.

Giving an inch for the betterment of mankind is not the problem,the people who take a mile are. They have always been there taking that mile though, and always will do.

Being in Canada, our personal security is held with much higher importance than most other countries it seems, take P2P sharing for example, we cannot be fined because it would require breaking our guaranteed privacy. In the US (for example) privacy seems secondary when a large corporation needs information though, money talks I guess.

by sterling "chip" camden

I have to agree with tinkerick on this one. It's the gradual acceptance and expansion of a technology that can be insidious. Who would have thought back in 1995 that the world-wide web would someday become the greatest tool for frauds ever created? Back then it was only a bunch of publicly available information. But bit by bit we have added personal information (securing it each step of the way) until the sheer size of the attack surface makes fraud and identity theft shockingly easy. The same thing could happen with RFID, if we aren't watching who's watching, and how much data they can get.

by oz_media

First of all your questions:
What is the transmission/reception distance of an RFID tag?
MOST, and I mean in the 90% + range of RFID tags do not TRANSMIT information, they are passive and are read by an RFID capable scanner just as any barcode is. Semi-active tags only respond to an inbound signal and do not actively emit a signal until queried. Active tags are few and far between, they are bulky, VERY expensive and not very good anyway.
So emissions range, a few feet, yup...three or rour feet, that's it. Nobody is going to be installng a giant RFID receiver in the basement and picking up random signals form all over town, not that it would be of any use anyway.

WRITING: Tags can be wrtitten to quite easily, but that data cannot be appended. If a manufacturer sets out a 12 digit code and that is relational to a stored record, rewriting the tag would simply erase previous data and add a new code, which again the host has to be configured to associate with a database record. It's not quite as technologically advanced as most think and it's very heavily regulated at this time.

How far can RFID readers read? Not far, a few feet accurately. Tags are not that good yet, they have issues with liquids, metallics, are VERY susceptable to radio interference etc.

So really yor comment : [i]The key is one can store multiple variables in the tag to suit the supply chain needs, it's a transmitting memory chip, not just a number as in bar coding.[/i] is SOMEWHAT accurate btu not very common. Manufactured goods, retail items, food etc. do not utilize an ACTIVE tag. It's passive, as teh skid rolls through the warehouse doors it is scanned before entering the truck. When the truck unloads at the destination, it is scanned again, by close proximity towers. These things aren't designed to send out transimissions that can be intercepted or used in any meaningful way other than for the supply chain.

by adelariva

I stand corrected on the communication sequence. But isn't it kinda similar to active: The RFID tag readily responds to anyone bearing a querying device? RFID tag doesn't initiate communication but the RFID scanner does and gets a response if within proximity.

Thanks for the clarification on the writing question. It's now more clear, the RFID tag doesn't store some sophisticated appendable database.

If the range is as small as you describe, it doesn't seem so intrusive. But couldn't technology improve such that the RFID scanner user wouldn't have to be so close? Take inventory from center of a huge warehouse instead of wandering the premise. I take note of your comments on current limitations with metals, liquids and radio interference. But couldn't those engineers overcome these obstacles?

Don't get me wrong Oz, I'm not some paranoid nut. I kinda look forward to the capabilities it brings to a business. ( I work for a wholesaler and retailer)

I also realize RFID tags would most likely be located on packaging not the item itself. Example: once you remove your stereo from box, the box along with tag is discarded. The stereo remains without RFID tag. So for RFID on packaging this couldn't be a concern.

Like anything else, if an tool is powerful, why limit it to manuf, wholesalers and retailers. Could consumers benefit? What if they had RFID tags that consumers could assign and affix according to their needs... Listen for your lost keys, listen for children leaving house (if you could set a scanner to CONSTANTLY query and get kids to wear their tags), listen for pets leaving yard, listen for high dollar items leaving your house, listen for cars leaving garage...hmmm.

Any thoughts on how RFIDs benefits could be expanded beyond business supply chains?

by oz_media

TO give you a slight hint of a recent project, a company is seeking to track the manufacture date of its products. Due to safety requirements, the product has a limited life span. They will incorporate tags into their product that will remain on th eproduct during use. A field 'inspector' will visit the site and scan it's product tags to determine if they require replacing or not. The mobile scanner will send RF frwuency to their service vans, which will in turn use a cellular network to communicate and retrieve product details from a host, before relaying back to the van and then the mobile in the inspector's hand, in real time and onsite. (PRETTY COOL!)

Hospitals are experimenting with tracking wheel chairs and other medical equipment in and around the hospital. This would offer an example of how teft prevention could also be employed in a home, IF you could afford the tags, IF you were willing to invest $1300.00+ in an industrial printer (No they don't drop in price, they've been that expensive for decades now) IF you wanted to invest $10K + in an RFID radio system to be installed in the door jambs of the home etc. Sure some costs will drop very slightly but as this is a very protected market (no manufacturer>direct or retail>manufacturer ability) the price is pretty secured and is not a competitive industry for the resellers.

by oz_media

Bar codes have been used since the dawn of tme, really.

the Irish were using a form of bar code system for identification since the first century. In 1932 they started using punch cards for consumers to order products from catalogues. In 1948 the modern day barcode was utilized.

Nearly 60 years later, the barcode is simply a means of product identification. Nobody is running around with a Metrologic scanner and stealing identities from people with a can of pop or bag of chips that has been bar coded.

RFID does not really store any more info than a standard bar code, RFID does not inadvertently send out signals into the airwaves that can be intercepted or read.

So if BAR CODES didn't turn into some kind of terrible system of identity theft, who is to say that RFID tags will? The information is the same, it's just the ease of scanning it that changes. Instead of a guy manually scanning a pallet leaving a warehouse and then dumping batch collected data into a host, the warehouse is equipped with towers at the loading bay that scans the entire palet as it leaves and comunicates that in realtime to the host. A Manual scan would require bar codes to be placed on an easily readable area of the product. Haven't you ever seen a shipper break down a skid to scan bar codes that can't be seen? How about quanities? 17 of these and 36 of those on a skid is time consuming to manually scan, an automatic tally and inventory update is far more efficient, and saves a bundle of money with inaccurate counts.

RFID doesnt increase the possiility of anything, any more than bar coding does/has/did.

by oz_media

But as I learned more abut RFID I realized how far fetched that is. It's like saying that because yuo have WIFI at home, that in 10 years they will be pickng up your wifi signal in Europe. You'd need a pretty damn good transmitter! Now those would actually sell for those tricky hotspots.

An ACTIVE RFID tag, VERY uncommon, I mean VERY uncommon, is able to transmit a few feet. Can you imagine a world where tags were aimlessly transimitting random codes into the airwaves, EVERY product we buy? Not bloody likely, I'd say. Remember, some company has to pay for that tag, which at present costs several dollars for a weak, active tag; just for the sake of finding our who bought it and how they used it?

It's not logical and at the present time not feasible at all. In future, there will be some new way of instilling fear into people, RFID will be old hat long before the .02 cent tag that transmits around the globe is available.

by oz_media

Actually stores use instore security camera replays to determine store layouts and trolley routes. No need for an expensive RFID route.

The security tags you are referring to woul dbe different once again, RFID tags are, in most cases, as thin as a label. RFID tags can b printed from industrial label printers just like a bar code printers from TSC, SATO, DATAMAX, ZEBRA etc.

Checkouts, they are looking to improve well beyond requiring checkout personelle at all. Tests in germany have had smart shelves track product as it leaves the shelf, smart carts read each item in th ecart and smart terminals on th eway out the door will automatically scan the entire cart's contents and debit the total from your preauthorized chequing account or credit card. No price check, no waiting for more change to be delivered to your cashier, no more waiting for cheque or credit card authorization. Just wheel it between the RFID poles, have a nice day.

by sterling "chip" camden

The difference is, if I'm carrying a bar code in my wallet, nobody can see it. I may not even know how many things I'm carrying are RFID'd. So I don't know how much information about what I have on my person is being shared. I know that given the current state of things, this does not represent a breach of my privacy, because there isn't that much data. All I'm saying is that it is a matter of degree, not type, that distinguishes a perfectly safe scenario from one that is downright Orwellian.

by oz_media

I understand your concern is how RFID may be hidden in products, which may at some time in the future be undetectable I suppose.

At this time, the average RFID tag is a 4X4 piece of paper (though slightly smaller tags down to about 1" are available), that is a millimeter think since it has a coil and antenna sandwiched between the paper layers. They need to be placedin obvious areas. The scenario of a kid on th ebus was speculative and would be a little more realistic if the kid had just purchased the products, had them in a bag and hadn't removed the tags. (perhaps a good way to get kids to stop leaving the damn tags on their ball caps :)) An active tag would also have a battery in there too. Not exactly inconspicuous.

They are clearly labelled and placed to be easily readable, just like a bar code but even more obvious and susceptible to poor placement design.

by adelariva

I'd agree if the equipment is THAT expensive, it wouldn't be feasible for thieves in a residential area.

One last thing I'd like to point out is that item numbers for products wouldn't be that difficult to obtain. You don't necessarily have to hack a manufacturer's database.

Products have numbers that everyone in the supply chain needs to have in their own database. Because of this this the number can't be unique to the supplier/purchaser relationship, i.e. Coca-Cola UPC numbers are the same for all supplier/retailers given the same products. It's not a huge secret.

Anyone with access to a retailers database (or any other DB along the supply chain) could output: UPC number, RFID number (whatever number uniquely identifies product for supply chain members), description. The challenge is just to develop a huge collection of valuable items.

So long as the data provider doesn't output sensitive info like costs, inventory levels, no harm is done to their firm. It's the equivalent of walking into a large retail shop, and notating all the 1000's of items numbers and descriptions; except in a much more efficient way.

So maybe theft isn't a big deal. But I don't like the idea of others (businesses, govt., or other private citizens) being able to know what's on me. I wouldn't like the idea of many scanners being placed throughout (malls, grocery stores, employers, movie theaters, car dealerships) knowing what's on me as I walk in.

I see RFID as a potential X-ray vision type technology execpt it's redio not sight, and produced retail goods not any physical object.

by oz_media

Item codes are always the same as they are printed by the manufacturer, the data those numbers represent will vary throughout the supply chain.

809362 on a can of Coke, may mean Mfr.Date;mfr.plant;product description etc., in the retail store, that data may represent, product description;volume;deposit amt; etc.

It can still be traced by any part of the supply chain by it's number, I think that sharing the relational data is really not that imperative; as long as it relates to the same item and necessary data for that portion of the chain, it can be identified.

So really you would need SOMEONE'S data in order to track a specific product, even hacking a retail outlest; but I think this is really getting a bit ridiculous now, this is a pretty far fetched and certainly not an easily executed scenario. Clever criminals will always exist, we only hear about the stupid ones that keep getting caught. We can't hinder our growth and progress for the betterment of mankind simply due to such speculative fears.

This is a phenominal technology,being put to some of the most economically supportive use one could imagine. The pros at this time far outweigh the cons (bad pun, sorry). We will always find flaws with such major changes but we are a specias with an ability to adapt and improve ourselves too.

by oz_media

Make sure you don't throw on your underwear in the dark, always check it for a large, cumbersome RFID tag. ;)

by rush2112

You are now criminal 666-123-86 who has escaped from a Russian Siberian prison and was last seen in Florida on a street cam when the face recognition system identified you.

But but but...my passport has my picture on it?

Come with us sir.

by oz_media

That has me worried too. Better throw away the computers too, and the bar codes on all of our products and then I must cut my hair off, shave my chest and privates, get rid of my eyebrows and sit in a white rubber room, waiting for the worms to come.

by itreader2003

Intentional or not, I think you're just not getting it. You obviously have an affection for the RFID technology. So do I. Great idea. The technology uses existing bandwidth (usually in the free-space Land-Mobile or Amateur bands). ECP Class-1 squiggle and emerging next gen (Gen2), have open huge cost saving for those businesses that have adopted RFID technology with a plan (and those that did not have an in-depth plan are frustrated and suffering).

I sat in on the FCC hearings and heard the concerns that covered the tech issues relative to frequency and interference but rarely touched on the privacy concerns. But those concerns are real whether YOU think they are or not. Maybe these concerns are not really in the form of a sarcastic deep-chocolate candy bar, but it has the capacity to be very Orwellian none the less. Look at the goings on in India where using and exploiting technology for technology sake runs rampant. (yes, it's the implant thing).

As long as RFID stays within the bounds of its concept it is a wonderful thing. But what new technology ever does stay within its original intended bounds? Especially, if there's a dollar to be made. Using technology for technology sake is not necessarily a good thing.

OZ, don't limit your perspective on this. The RFID product is emerging and developing into something beyond it's so called original concept and purpose. And therein lays the problems.

p.s. don't wait for the worms to come. they're already here. now whatcha gonna to do...just get paid for it or do something about it?

by faradhi

man, I knew I liked you. Anyone who can slip in a pink floyd reference on a tech conversation is alright in my book. B)

by jason_whiteaker

Well, at my local Wal-Mart, RFID tags are found on a number of products - particularly video games and DVD's.

And no, the information contained in the chip in and of itself isn't the issue. My point is the ability to track minute detail conveniently. Think of the information goldmine that can be sold because of the same benefits enjoyed (pallet tracking, supply chain, whatever) from RFID implementation. Info's more valuable than widgets.

Technology is amoral, however, people have proven time and again the for the right price any option is up for grabs. Good old greed and control is the heart of the issue, and RFID is yet another tool to make that stuff more efficient for those in power.

As for the salary, I was speaking in hyperbole. The point is, deep down inside, you are saying to yourself that it's none of anyone's business what you earn. But using your logic, one should not feel that way because 1.) there's nothing to hide, and 2.) the information means little to those who hear it. Yet, none of us broadcast this info blindly. I'm merely pointing out the hypocritical nature of the comments from those who think that people who don't follow the lemmings to total transparency are fools and conspiracy theorists.

Two questions:

1.) Since when in history has the government taken liberties or control from its people, then given it back when the "danger" was over?

2.)Again, what is your salary?

:-)

by oz_media

I have made quite a bundle off of WalMart's RFID implementation. They JUST had their first manufacturer to tag with the Gen2 tags the other day, others will follow suit. Yay, WalFart! I would spend a cent in their store but thanks for the paycheque anyway.

Secondly, I earn in excess of $148K/yr(now) as I have several projects, get royalties from artist sales, comissions, side projects, perks etc.

It doesn't make an ounce of difference to me if you know, or anyone else for that matter, maybe you have no idea how easy it is to gather that information on people anyway through completely legal sources.

I have nothing to hide and I couldn't care less if you know it.

Answers:
1) makes no sense, you are not having yoru liberties taken away from you, this is supply chain management, not people management, don't flatter yourself so, nobody is interested in what you bought or when you bought it, RFID is not used for that purpose. That information IS available simply by analyzing supply chain data.

2) I already said, in excess of 148K/yr approx (mixed USD, CDA and UKP mainly) . sometimes a bit higher sometimes a bit lower, it has changed every year (if not every quarter or month) for the last 20 years.

Questions:

1)What would you object to, specifically, regarding RFID. A real example! ie: The company could find out where I lived, A rougue scanner would hack my life and use data for social engineering.

2) What data is provided via RFID that can be sold or used to benefit one copmpany that it cannot access now?

by oz_media

I market products that can read at 40'. With a specific size tag, from a specific angle, with a VERY expensive RFID scanner etc.

They NEED beter range, but who the hell cares, WHAT do you really think will be tagged at the retail level that would be an issue?

People are offering 'what if' speculation without any examples that make sense. So what, lets say they can read RFID tags at 40' (just like many bar code scanners can today and have for years). Where's the risk? What products woul dplace you at risk? What criminal would actually take the tme to use such a method? A pretty pathetic one if you ask me, a good criminal doesn't work that hard, otherwise they'd have a job instead.

by svs95

I don't see this quandary or dilemma as any more complex than the spyware issue. Spyware, too, was initially an innocent convenience for the companies who employed that technology. As the technology became more widespread and unethical abuses became commonplace, the public became fed up with it, and has begun to fight back. I see no reason why the same thing won't happen with this stuff, unless it is heavily regulated from the start, which I don't believe it is.

by oz_media

For WalMart to gain the necessary government clearances to introduce RFID throughout it's supply chain.

by oz_media

Your insane ramblings are just completely absent of any form of reality or fact to support them, just paranoid rantings.

by armandocanales

If You let it start, It will never stop!!!

Once Again...

The only people who benefit are the ones w/auhll
contracts...

& becuz 'Mericans WANT to be lazy &
ignernt...we'll pay for it...willingly...till
our boys stop coming home....

Look me in the eye & Teeeehhhlll me I'm wrong.

Follow the money, Follow the money, Follow the
money....

AC-EL

by oz_media

You've made several completely ridiculous posts with no substance at all. Please try and illustrate your points with some relevant detail.

by armandocanales

Here's the deal dude...

You still don't get it...

The people who sign yer checks don't give a
f$%^&*( rat's ass 'boot yer opinion 'boot
anything.

What they care aboot is money, & how much you
bring in & how fast you do it compared to the
rest of the "employees" they have on the ropes.

Ridiculous Analogies Huh? Yeah right! Ridiculous
Analogies are the reason I can watch a
documentary on the history channel from the 40's
aboot schoolchidrens wearing uniforms. I
couldn't understand it...
CUZ IT WAS IN GERMAN!!!!!!!

One of the reasons bad things happen to good
people is because people like us who know better
don't speak up...or stay silent simply because
it doesn't affect us/or our fambly personally at
this time...Guess what...this is how Genocide is
committed...No one says "NO!"

The word "NO" is a wonderful freedom...

How do you think evil triumphs sir...Cause
"Good" men do nothing....

That's how it starts...& the guys who sign yer
checks won't stop...ever....

When the time comes & "The Team" has to make
"Individual Sacrifices"..... Guess who's name
bubbles up to the top of the list?

Riiiiiiiggght...."Yours"

& Just what did you think would be the phrase at
the top of your pink slip?
"Plays well w/others"? LOL

You will see yer boss on TV...telling
you how much they "care" aboot their employees,

As the CIO (Yer Boss) accepts a $4M
check for taking the company's stock down 50% in
the past year along w/Yer best idears...watch
him leave w/o saying goodbye...

Old joke...
How does a Republican start a small business?

He buys a large business...& waits....

Keep Waiting...Good Luck & Good Night ...
Jackass....
AC- EL

by armandocanales

Ridiculous Analogies are how a guy named "Adolf"
enabled a nation to kill 6M+ people & made the
rest of the world into a 6 year killing field if
memory serves me correctly

The same speeches he gave sounded just like
yours..telling us how this is for our
betterment...Yeah Right...Heard it..not buying
it...Dude....

AC - EL

by oz_media

YOu have a lot to say, in several interesting dialects, you live in Eastern canada or something? What's that aboot?

Try actually makinga case to support your pessimism, it may actually help you look sane.

As for the CIO and stock increases, not an issue in my case, of course. I don't work in corporate cubicle America, thank god.

by oz_media

Firstly TIVO is not installed by default in all homes, it is a subscriber service.

As with ANY service we CHOOSE to lease, we must also accept the outlines behind leasing that service. When you buy TIVO, you don't own it, much like you con't own Windows,you simply pay for the use of the service.

In this case, it is cited to be used for content tracking and delivery convenience of relevant content. Many people opting to rent the service will in turn see great benefit in such a program.

Those who are paranoid and feel they are being tracked like aliens, will choose NOT to lease such a service.

Nobody is burying a microchip in your brain during an abduction, it's a choice you make to have it or not.

You do know that your TV viewing habits have been tracked for decades, finally it will be used to deliver relevant content instead of just gathering viewer information, it's about time we got something out of the media ii return for our data,

by tripwire3

I failed to read the fine print of the patent, enough to understand that it only wants to track the individual/remote/equipment involved.
The articles I have read on the subject had lead me to understand the device being patented would read every RFID within range. Such as the narcotic Medication bottle RFID that is in the same general direction +- 20ft. and a wall, from the RFID on your 2mo. old daughters jumper suit.
Yea, who would pay for that sort of information?
My apologies.

by oz_media

Will I whine about it or will I profit from it. Well I am surprised to hear that coming from an American, of COURSE I will profit from it instead of whining about it.

I live in Canada, a country that still protects it's citizens rights to privacy, before the interests of a corporation. You may find some companies wil push to become very invasive, in Canada it's a LOT harder to do than in the US.

by robbomaz

Shouting down people who are having a discussion because you don't agree with what they are discussing does. You have made your position clear, leave it at that

by rush2112

Well the RFID chip might be set as a ROM-type device but the database which all the RFID's are stored can be manipulated and identities of chips can be changed.

All security measures are fallable. Some are less than others, but with enough effort and time and resources, all security can be overcome.

This is the sad truth.

by Member 32650361

Let's face it-- if manuacturers can track their product, and if they can tell what you were doing when (as in the case of the Congressman who got nabbed for speeding and hitting another vehicle through the data on his car's "black box"), then anything stolen that was RFID'd can be tracked-- and the holder will have little recourse if found with stolen items in his possession. Yes, it could clog the courts, possibly incarcerate a few innocents who picked up a lost item in attempting to identify the owner-- but think of the benefits of catching criminals "red-handed"!

On the other hand, the last 3 times I tried to report thefts of my property it was like pulling teeth to get the police to even take a report.

by oz_media

Well perhaps when we start driving those flying cars that were coming out in Y2K.

But whilst that is a fair observation. perhaps we are starting to forget again just what an RFID tag is. It is NOT something permanently placed on a product, it is a removable tag, just like the price tag and the bar code tag. Even then, it is placed on the pallet or case and not the item itself.

But they have MANY similar identification systems that stores and consumers can use to mark their valuable items already.

It's a good thought, but one that's been implemented through so many different systems now already. RFID tags are far to susceptible to the elements and too EASILY damaged or destroyed. They would have to be encased in a hard shell of some sort, just like the security tags you see in stores today.

by itreader2003

Come-on, Abington, Md.?? What crimes are you going to find in Hartford County other than what the local drunk did after a game over at Cal Ripkin Stadium? Why does potentially intrusive, unchecked technology have to be accepted, then implemented and infringe the civil rights of your local law abiding population? To put and end to "crime"?
I don't think so.
I'll admit, I am not one that advocates the general widespread use of a certain technology "just because" it exists. That is due to the fact that abuses (usually motivated by the almighty dollar or by the power to influence or entrap) happen everyday in this country with less than intrusive technologies. Why whould I advocate risking the remaining few civil liberties that I have "just because" some one decided that I must submit to the new technology (what ever that might be).
We need to get it ethically straight first; then implement. In this country, toooooo often it happens just the other way around.

by dwrandolph

While the current tags may be fragile, comparitively bulky, and only contain a single UPC'ish value, the problem is the potential for silent read-at-a-distance.

The analogies to bar codes are not very good. Bar codes are very limited capacity and have to be out in the open to be read. RFID can be read WITHOUT your knowledge and consent. As for the limited capacity, does anyone really think that will never grow?

The comments about how hard it might be for criminals to collect data and equipment to accomplish anything: Very naive to say "that much effort they could get a real job". They do not want a real job. They want to take your stuff because that is easier for them then a 9-to-5.

Agreed, I can not see how to leverage RFID in common articles such as clothing or food for criminal intent. What about when it migrates into more unique items? Drivers license, passport (already being done), credit card. All under the guise of convenience, "you do not even have to pull it out of your wallet, just walk past this scanner". If it can be read, it can be cloned, and can you say Identity Theft?

Current readers may be bulky and short range. For how long? Sit in the park next to a bank during lunch with a "briefcase" and collect data. All it will take is one unique number and someones life is ruined.

Saying the "unique" number is worthless without a database does not help. The only secure database is one that denys everyone read access. It was bad enough when a cracker had to infiltrate the banks network, but lately they just pickup the secretarys notebook while she is distracted at Starbucks, or "borrow" backup tapes from the dock.

by ozi eagle

Great forethinking DW.

Go back just 15 or so years. The internet was young, a great tool for communicating, data transfer.
Security - hell there's no problem, viruses (virii?) you only pick up offa someone elses' floppies. Hacking - gee they would need to know my IP address and password. Spyware - see hacking.

Get my drift?

by oz_media

First of all we prohibit alcohol again. It can be abused and misused.

Secondly we prohibit firearms, abuse and misuse.

Now we start to close all stores because theives exist.

We then move on to cars, we mustn't allow the horse and buggy to be replaced by cars because cars can be stolen, used for crime and may be used by a criminal to kill someone also.

Food processing plants must be shut down because food can be tampered with.

We should stop using computers because, as you say, hacks, spyware etc.

So much for tR , it was fun but with all those hackers out there, how can we possibly adopt such questionable technology?

Damn, and I just realized FIRE burns people and ruins property too, gotta stop cooking and heating our caves.

Technology paranoia, good thing we haven't feared advancement until now.

by ozi eagle

Yes, most of what is being discussed can be done with a barcode, however, the bigger danger with RFID is that, unlike a barcode, it can be used unkowingly.
eg a barcode must visually scan an item, if the scanner can"t "see" the item, it can't scan it.
RFID, however doesn't need this "line of sight", being RF it can scan what you have in your pocket, bag, etc. Now assuming a unique code on the item you have, your movements could be easily tracked with strategically placed scanners.
Remember the Dick Tracey watch phone? Pure imagination, then. Now we have mobile phones (cell phones) that could do the job, except that they would be too small to have a usable keyboard (a la wrist watch calculators). Maybe even mobile phone bases could have RFID scanners built in.

by oz_media

You would end up with a scanner full of SKU's and no relational data. Unless you then downloaded all the data to your own database and built from there. Then you would have to scan every colour, size and variation of that product in order to create a complete database.

Wouldnt it be easier to hack the database? Not to mention quicker and cheaper.

by oz_media

Stores such as WalMart will eventually place RFID tags on clothing items. The system is used for better service and security, eg;

You take a blue shirt into the dressing room. An RFID scanner mounted inside the dressing room scans the garment and returns a list of accessories to a wall mounted LCD with VoIP capability. If you wanted the shirt in black as well, along with the pants shown as a matching accessory, you simply push a button and you can talk via Ip with store staff. They will then have the warehouse (in-store) call out for the RFID tag with the black short and pants, then deliver them to the dressing room. (There's a video of thi saplication but it is over 120 MB so it's hard to share with you).

If that shirt is then taken out of he store, it will trigget the alarm if the tag has not been decoded. (much like the magnetic systems used now).

BUT and this is the BIIIIIIIG but, for the last 10-15 years, they have been seeking ways to have tags work when fastened to hidden areas, no go. The tags are FAR to sensitive to metal, radio interference, liquids and other materials. They don't work in MOST tested aplications, nor have they been able to overcome many substances, with years of trying.

As t sits now, RFID is great for supply chain management, it is being used for tires to track life and wear etc. But hidden tracking just isn't something they are even remotely close to figuring out, the tags have an antennae and receiver wire embedded and those are too easily damaged or destroyed, unless encased in which case it just doesn't work at all.

I prefer to welcome technology and work out ways to protect it from abuse, instead of shying away from it out of an unnkown fear and simply not progressing.

by faradhi

I'M BEING SPIED ON!!! YOU KNOW I BOUGHT A KITKAT BAR LAST WEEK!!!!! ARGHHHHHHHHHH!!!! HELP POLICE!!!!!

OH NO THEY ARE GOING TO PUT IT IN LICENSES ONE DAY!!!! WHO IS GOING TO PROTECT US!!!!!

THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT IS COMING TO AN END!!!! BECAUSE OF RFID!!!!

Come on people. Relax. This is not some evil plot. It is not going to increase identity theft. This tech is not going increase the likely hood of a crack head robbing your house. Be careful. Keep and eye on the tech. Do not exclude tech just because it may be used inappropiately. If we did that for every product we would be banning every product.

by m_a_r_k

I just now came upon this discussion so pardon me if this has already been brought up. Mobile phone towers track the general location of your mobile phone whenever it is powered on. They cannot pinpoint location exactly but a mobile phone company can tell which cell you are currently in based on signal strength received by the cell tower. Using triangulation, they can use signal strength at other cell towers in the other area to get within a few hundred yards or so of your actual location. This has been used by law enforcement agencies for many years as evidence of suspect's or victim's whereabouts.

by ozi eagle

Maybe I haven't made myself clear, I'm not against technology, I just wish to have the potential for misuse considered and design the system to not have these holes, before madly rushing in and then trying to retrospectively clean up a mess.
If the interne twere to be designed from scratch today, it would be a totally different animal, hopefully much more secure. Lets use our experience with it to create as better RFID system.

by oz_media

I agree with not jumping on techology just because it's new or cutting edge, even if not for any reason other than price alone.

But RFID is far from being NEW technnology, it has been around for several decades, it's PRACTICAL uses are now being explored and implemented. The system has been around for ages though.

No matter ho wmany years of testing, thought and scenario building we perform, once deployed in the field, new ways of using/abusing it will appear.

I suppose what I am saying is , now is as good a time as any. We will incur security, privacy and abuse issues no mater when it is released or how carefully it is deployed. At least they STARTED the roll outs with government certifications already, instead of getting them to step in once it's flying.

by oz_media

You haven't shared anything other than absurd ranting with no direction, support or fact. Just a bunch of hissing about something.

by Former member

Printed on my Passport or other form of ID that is in my pocket without me knowing though.

by deepsand

The level of confidence that one can have that any trust will hold is [b]inversely exponentially[/b] proportionate to the number of parties held in trust.

If, for example, it is believed that there is a 90% probability that each party will not betray the trust, then the probability that [b]none[/b] will do so, T, is 0.90 ** N, where N is the number of parties being trusted.

The following shows how quickly such declines as the number of parties increases.

N T
1 0.90
2 0.81
3 0.729
4 0.6561
5 0.59049
6 0.531441
7 0.4782969
8 0.43046721
9 0.16677181699666569
10 0.025031555049932416013155719860858

The proposed uses of RFID, in my estimation, offer the opportunity for far too many to gain access to privileged information, such that any reasonable expectations of privacy would be rendered virtually non-existent.

This discussion is closed to new replies.