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Should a Network Admin know how to script??

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by larryd4 1 view

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Ok, so my boss says he hired a network admin to off load some work from my plate.

He says he was a network admin in his previous job.
He says he never had to do scripting because someone from the programming team did it for him.

Can a Network Admin survive without knowing how to script???

I'm just baffled...

55 replies

by larryd4

I'm not totally crazy, We hired a level 2 Analyst who apparently was an Admin before this. He is sitting in the office on his second day reading the Server 2003 book and the scripting essentials book, my boss gave him.

This is the frustrating part about working here. We are in a downturn economy, we have tons of applicants available to us, a state job is desirable for the pension alone, and we hire a guy who has never scripted.

I'm having a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad day.

I want to move to Australia..

by cg it

what to script for... especially for Active Directory based networks.

by selltekk

My title is not Network administrator. It is "Infotech specialist," however I do alot of network admin duties because our network admin really sucks. I'm quite proficient with Cisco IOS for both routing and switching, general AD and other related tasks, but haven't had a real need to script much of anything.

Other than mass user adds in AD and SQL stuff (which our sysdev takes care of) what kinds of things should I look into scripting if I wanted to get some experience? Or login script is already written, and rarely needs to be changed.

by kvanbuskirk

You?re the senior administrator. Use your leverage to improve the company?s network. Administration is not a pissing contest between two personalities. You have the very soul of the company in your hands. Focus your efforts on what?s best for the company. In short, automate everything that can conceivably run from a script. You don?t have to micro manage the project, just have the new admin start creating relevant, useful scripts. To have another member that can script all the mundane jobs of setting up backup jobs, formatting/labeling backup tapes, mapping drives, running logon/logoff scripts, download and install corporate software on new purchase laptops, adding/removing users from AD, new user setup, email accounts, etc. would be great!This is your chance to show that you are able to manage the affairs of the network and that you are self reliant, always focused on what it will take to make sure that the network continues.
Remember: The network is your primary mission in life. It is a living, breathing, and hopefully, growing entity. You are charged with it?s care. Don?t become distracted by personalities, and non-productive busy work. If you want to keep you job, demonstrate your professionalism by always keeping the network FIRST!

by nospam.online

I 2nd this?..The idea of someone not being good enough or qualified for the job "..cause you think so" is all to often a failing in the world today, not just in this workforce. Best to put them to use as kvanbuskirk say's and make things better than to add issues to the work place that don?t help. Plus, down the road the effort makes you and the project better. This idea has made the industry overall worse by the Newbie concept. So he learns scripting (as I am doing right now along with Server 2008 R2), and in the process takes some workload off you and others and more can get done.
What?s best for the project?

by jdclyde

That is what happens when they allow just anyone to get any title they want.

Question, why is he no longer the admin at his last place of employment? because he only knew part of the job and could pass off the difficult parts to others?

by jmgarvin

I'm tired of idiot admins who think being about to hit means they are a sys admin....arrgggg...

by bizzo

That's like asking: Should a fish know how to swim?

A fish that can't swim can still call itself a fish, but it won't last long.

by jaqui

They don't have to be a scripting genius, but they do have to know the scripting language for the systems they will be working with.

by forum surfer

After being exposed to command line cisco stuff, aduc and log on/off/add printer scripts, sql or oracle, sharepoint, back up software and the like; how can any type of admin not know at least a little about basic scripting?

If he's admined ANYTHING he should know some basic scripting. I'm no programmer, but I can do alot through scripting.

Reminds me of an admin that handles one of our offsite locales. He feels "overwhelmed." He has one building consisting of 3 floors and less tha 253 total nodes. I know this because I have his building on one subnet and handle all etwork tasks. All he handles is pc/laptop and server side support. They have very, very few specialized apps. Just a basic run of the mill windows enviroment. The most complex task he has are backups and exchange. He also is part of a 3 man team. Ridiculous. I don't feel sorry for him in the least.

by charliespencer

Hell, I've got at least that many systems plus partial responsibility for sites in Kingston, Ontario and Jacksonville, Florida. How can I get my other two team members?

by forum surfer

I just want to slap the guy. He called the other day and demanded 45 new subnets, which caused me to spew starbucks. WTF? I inquired as to why. He stated that he wanted each room in the building on it's own subnet, so when he looks at an ip addy he knows exactly where it is. I said I would have to get back to him on that. :)

by jck

the OS?

websites?

routers?

databases?

plus it depends on the shop.

i'd say at a min, you need to know how to script your routers, etc. plus, knowing how to batch script the server OSes a bit is nice too.

by larryd4

We mostly deal with VBS for most of our server scripting needs. I haven't even asked him about Linux shell and bash scripting.

Maybe I'll see if he can do a simple batch script..

by jaqui

tell him he needs to write a bash script and set it up as a cron job.

watch him go into cardiac arrest. ]:)

by Member 25348569

Starting with Exchange 2007 and following on with every product that they are producing, PowerShell is the preferred administration tool. For Exchange, the GUI sits on top of PowerShell on top of .Net and that's your management tool and is the way it's going to be for everything MS. There are things that you CANNOT do in the GUI.

Operations Manager, SQL2008, IIS7 all have a PowerShell snapin. We also use it to manage our VM environment, GPO and AD (which it's crap at without 3rd-party tools).

You can just use the command pipeline but, eventually, you'll get drawn into scripting.

Neil :)

by larryd4

About 3 months ago I put in for a transfer to a location four blocks from home. Last month the location posted the opening I was waiting for.

I was left out of the interview process and any training for the new employee. So I am hoping this a sign that all things will happen.

Crazy part...
The new employee said openly to the office during a water cooler session, that he has been doing Net Admin stuff since Win NT 3.51 days. But he doesn't know any client stuff..

My jaw dropped and I just stood their thinking..

My transfer is never going to come through..

by charliespencer

You mean like desktop OS and applications? You are, of course, making a joke at our expense.

Does he know anything besides Windows Server OS point-and-click? AD? Unix? Web? Databases? E-mail servers? Virtualization? Routers? Telecom?

I'd do his job at half price and make it up on the outside, but I don't want to move to NJ; too far north...

by apotheon

Are you telling us this isn't some kind of wet behind the ears kid? Is this actually a long-time supposed IT professional?

. . . and he doesn't know any scripting?

Okay, I take back what I said nearer the top of this thread -- there's no helping someone who has been working as an admin for fifteen years (since NT 3.51 days) and never bothered to learn how to script anything.

Good luck on the transfer.

by jck

Jaqui...there is a tool MS certified professionals use to write Linux scripts.

It's called...Google Search. lol

by slayer_

I took linux course and never even read the text book or did any of the practice work, I just jumped from assignment to test over and over, pissed my instructer off cause I kept acing everything, my trick, google. I learned how to do it all through google before the test on the assignment. There is something about finding the exact solution on google that somehow makes it stick in your mind better than reading abstract solutions in a text book.

I have since forgoten all my linux programming cause ive never had to use it, but I am certain I could relearn it very easily the same way I did before.
The joys of being an A.D.D. wizkid :p.

by forum surfer

Every switch is layer 3 and gig to the desktop everywhere with voip. Lol, I'll not grant his silly little wish on principle. I'm in charge of the network and if anything mission critical breaks at his whim, it's on my head. He's upset about having no network control. Is he justified? Maybe. I don't care, it's still my a$$ and my job on the line.

by slayer_

I read comments about "powershell" which is not something I am familure with, is this some new language or something?

And what would you need to script, is active directory not all done through a GUI, same with IIS, SQL. Honestly I didn't even know IIS had a scripting side....

by slayer_

Heck I taught myself enough SQL in 2 weeks to convert a banking systems database to ours. SQL is easy, Quirky, but easy.

by bizzo

Have you ever added 500 users to an AD?

Did you script it or use the GUI?

by slayer_

Once again I didn't know you could script it, what do you script it in, some new language or something, or is it like VBScript?

by apotheon

A sysadmin knows how to manage individual computers ("systems"). A netadmin knows how to manage the network itself.

by selltekk

Perhaps put more clearly, a network administrator manages the mechanisms that are responsible of the movement of data from host to host across a LAN or WAN and the transport devices that move the data.

A sysadmin manages the systems and applications that create the data that the network moves.

by jck

As a Windows programmer for 15 years, I am glad I got out of their arena.

I mean, what if you had to go back and re-learn all the command-line parameters for ls or du or od for *nix?

MS just knows how to keep their MS Cert program alive with all the changes they can make to "improve" products.

I've seen the light and I'm on the other side. lol

by slayer_

"I've seen the light and I'm on the other side."
The other side of the light is the dark

Light|Dark
Side|Other side

VBScript is easy enough, its same as VB5/6 and VBA, .net VB throws that all into confusion but I'm guessing this new VBScript replacement is just VB.net simplified? Always fun to code with no variable types and having to ctype everything you do cause you never know when the data type will change.

-Edit
In reading some of the page posted by uh... whoever that was, powershell seems to resemble java or c. Substring replaces Left for example, In java I always had my own class that I recreated some of those commands like left and right just because they were easier to use :).
Len, Length, strings are objects now instead of variables (does that ruin case statements, where you can only do case statements on primitave data types and not objects, cause VB was powerful for that, that you could case statement on pretty much anything)
Inline casting looks like it could be tricky, removing the "function" feel of casting that VBScript had.

Hmm randomize objects, never much cared for those.

Case statements, are identical to java/C and I'm guessing the same weakness.

It kind of looks like a failed attempt to reinvent the wheel, falling on the lines of "Why Bother". Asside from API calls, VBScript could do it all anyways. If you really needed API calls, make a DLL that contained them.

by apotheon

Instead of treating the new guy like a red-headed stepchild, try helping him build the skills he lacks. If he has real potential, he might become a real asset to the company and become an excellent, highly skilled network administrator, once he's given the chance to learn.

edit: Never mind. After seeing the later post about how the guy claims to have been an admin since "the days of NT 3.51", it seems to me he's dead weight. Fifteen years without learning how to do some simple scripting is a really, really bad sign.

by Member 25348569

It is, however, the only game in town. "Industry Standard". If you can think of an example where that is not typically MS then I will applaud.

Neil :)

ps. I think it's really rather good.

by xnavydk

Group policy does most everything I need for my network(small) to run smoothly. why should I use scripting? I need to map I drive I walk over to the pc in question and I map the drive or install the network printer, or I log in remote and do it. However can understand if I wanted to do 500 people that would be helpful, but doesn't gpo do the same thing? If I end up going elsewhere I should probably know a little basic scripting. Ive never been much good at code. I enjoy learning things but code isn't one of them.

Does that make me less of a network admin? I sure don't think so, I use the term loosely because I do everything. I am also the desktop support and anything else that has anything to do with the word electronics, IT, computers, cell phones, printers, databases, email, and on and on. Do I pretend to know everything, Nope, do I do try and learn it when needed though, sure. if I need to learn scripting to help my company I will, if I need to learn it to help myself do things easier I will eventually I guess. I am proud that I'm the IT guy here. I started out as the safety guy, now I am working as the "IT guy". But I digress. I mean overall through this statement is to say everyone has their strong points, and weak points. My weakpoint(s) is code of any kind and starbucks mocha frappachino and red heads. But my strong point is my ability to fix things, multi-tasking and I am a quick learner if someone takes the time to explain why a duck is a duck and not a quacker.

IMO
Find out what the strong points of that fella is and maybe you can help him with his weak side. Maybe you can help each-other run things better in the long run.

by forum surfer

You'll need some scripting. Sooner or later it will come up. You'll have that oracle database you need to convert to sql. You just never know. Maybe one day you'll have a linux box forced on you by management because it's tied to a vendor's project. Backups, offsite backups (an absolute neccisity these days) and the like occasionally require scripting for tweaking. Not to mention that to be successful in IT IMO, you should never ask why you should learn something new. If you know it is your weak point, you know what to learn!

by xnavydk

I'm having great fun learning gpo, atm as well as a multitude of a million other things. Scripting will have to wait. Rookie admin at the helm is not as fun as I make it out to be. But I am thoroughly enjoying myself. I think in a couple years ill be able to settle down and get some of my IT knowledge gaps filled.

by apotheon

"[i]If you know it is your weak point, you know what to learn![/i]"

There's a quote that should be repeated far and wide.

There's a caveat to your comment about how sooner or later a need to script something will come up: A lot of the time, MS Windows admins who don't have any scripting skills at all will find some way to "work around" it, often by coming up with an excuse to not do it at all. This is the [b]wrong[/b] approach: scripting eases the load on a lot of things that need to be done, but people go to great lengths to work around them or avoid taking care of the problem at all, ultimately putting far more work into [b]not[/b] scripting than the effort required to learn just enough basic scripting skills to get by.

Those of us in IT should always be acutely aware of the fact that computers are here to do our drudgery for us. That's the whole point of computers; they make managing data, performing simple and repetitive tasks, and communication easier by automating them all. If you can't write a few simple admin scripts now and then, you're missing out on a significant advantage for automating your own work. In short, you're [b]missing the point[/b]. Even if you can "get by" without scripting, you shouldn't, for the same reason that even if you can walk three miles to work through a snowstorm in the morning and get there by the time you have to clock in, just by getting a start on your day a few hours earlier, that doesn't mean you shouldn't drive your 4WD car with tire chains -- or even telecommute that day.

by selltekk

Great reply! More people need to realize that not everyone is a whiz at everything.

by forum surfer

We need to become whizzes at everything. IT isn't a field where you can stay in one spot your entire life. You need to add to your skillset and advance or you'll be looking at downsizing, outsourcing or worse...

Just my humble 2 cents :)

by gate keeper

I am in a similar position .. I do know how to script but since the network is small I haven't had the itch yet.

I wear the Network/system/Desktop hats .. so scripting is not a priority.

by apotheon

MS Windows doesn't make it as easy to automate a lot of tasks with a simple script as Unix systems do. As a result, it is sometimes less obvious what you can accomplish with a good script in an MS Windows environment than elsewhere.

When you don't know what you're missing, well . . . you just don't know what you're missing.

Powershell promises to change a lot of that. The design of the shell language itself seems to be pretty good, in terms of its capabilities. I haven't actually learned Powershell myself, so I can't comment too authoritatively on its power and flexibility. Something I do know, though, is that the scriptability of tools in the MS Windows environment is generally pretty dismal, and if you can't leverage the capabilities of Powershell to automate the functionality of the tools in your environment very effectively, you still may not be able to get as much out of it as you can out of traditional Unix shells.

Since I haven't actually used Powershell, I don't know how much of a problem this actually is, but I can't imagine how it wouldn't be a problem. Perhaps, with the introduction of Powershell, the increased capabilities of MS Windows based scripting will induce developers of other tools to make their functionality more accessible to admin scripts over time. Maybe, eventually, MS Windows will achieve (near?) parity with Unix for the power and flexibility of its scripting paradigm. Only time will tell.

This is one of the reasons I prefer Unix systems for most purposes. I like being able to automate tasks quickly and easily -- tasks that, in the MS Windows world, people generally never even consider the possibility of being able to automate.

by jserrago

I have done some scripting back when I was an Admin for a small network. Most of it just batch files using basic MS-Dos comand lines.

At this point for someone to learn scripting should I just jump into powershell? I mean after all Powershell is backwards comepad. with the traditional scripting isn't it?

by xnavydk

Scripting is a must have tool in your toolbox. I have been looking at powershell all day. Since I don't know the old ways, it looks like a very usable tool to get the job done. I will take the time to learn it. But not today. When i get some of these other pressing matters off my task list i will tackle it.

by dwdino

Scripting allows someone to define a specific process for a specific task with a specific method. At times, this can be either boom or bane.

I work with many that overcomplicate tasks by scripting. Many hours spent writing, testing, deploying scripts - when tools already exist.

For instance, a client wanted to manage an OU of contacts and distribution lists and remove the burden from the help desk due to the frequent changes. Sounded good to me. A peer set off with VBscript to create a solution. After many hours he had reached a rough draft that contained about 60% functionality. I then opened MMC and built a custom console and published it for the needed users. In 2 hours I had provided a solution with greater functionality, ease of use, and flexibility.

Now when maintaining redundant DHCP servers, automating VCBMounter, and allowing users to update thier contact information - VBscript was the tool.

In summary: scripting is useful and can be a solution to certain situations. If it is a constant tool implemented in your environment, then hire someone with the toolset.

by forum surfer

I, like many started out in the trenches of pc support. I knew my weak point was on the server side. I focused on that and ended up in server admin roles. Then I knew my networking skills were weak. Now I'm a network specialist. I'm quite happy financially and professionally with nary a bachelor's degree. I now realize my weakpoint is business mangement. I'll fix that shortly with online college courses and maybe a degree. Maybe by the time I'm 40 or ready to retire I'll finally get it right. :)

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