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The devil

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by boxfiddler 1 view

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is in the details. I don't think I've ever seen so many questions posted in discussions. And zombies. They're gaining the upper hand.

The way the freakin' page jumps when 'Your discussion may be similar to' pops up is annoying as hell. Hadn't intended to go there, but the page freakin' jumped.

It's patently obvious that TPTB have no clue how we daily users use this place.

For those of us with 'really' bad eyes, this is a glaring monstrosity.

Gods. The world has gone to hell in a handbasket.

Sad. So freaking sad.

(I note the disappearance of the 'Feedback' tag. Goes to show what TPTB think of us.)

[i]There's more, way more. But who the hell cares.[/i]
[i]add something[/i]

39 replies

by nicknielsen

We do. Did we not, we wouldn't complain.

The silence from the PTB is deafening. I get the feeling nobody is listening...or maybe they're too busy scrambling to do something about it, with the site interactivity stats apparently down significantly over the last month.

by seanferd

Never would have bothered saying anything I did, nor editing Tigger's spreadsheet, if I didn't. We can be part of a solution, or we can just complain - but unfortunately, what defines what we are doing isn't up to us. If we are ignored, we are just complaining, as nothing constructive will come of it. It isn't about cheese being moved, and it isn't about me. It's about fundamental usability issues.

Another word: Oracle.

by ansugisalas

I'm not giving up yet, mind you, but I think we've cooperated enormously, guided and prodded and spoken our minds, but at the same time it hits me: All I hear is silence, an occasional "that's a bug" and other than that, some kind of chugging-the-kool-aid "it's better and more social" mantra droning.

We need to know that we are being taken seriously, that there are definite, not possible-to-learn-to-live-with problems with large parts of the new layout.

A little feedback goes a long way.
Silence does not. Silence makes the inmates jumpy.

by tigger_two

Since the conference call. They need to communicate and even OVER communicate. Not doing so leaves people with the sense that they don't matter.

There is a difference between doing a thing TO a group of people- as has been done here- and doing a thing FOR them- as they wanted us to believe. One way to shape the perception is through communication.

I thought that CBS had learned this lesson from the years they spent on the bottom of the big three back in the day. Or perhaps they have decided that, given the wide array of content avenues, it isn't necessary to hold the heart OR the mind of the end user.

I'm with Seanferd. This isn't about how I personally feel. This is about providing the tools appropriate to what they want to accomplish. They want a more "social" feel- like FaceBook, they have to provide the tools to be more social.

Still, if they think that TR and FB are analogous, they are dead wrong. People want the interactivity of a discussion. That isn't necessarily true in FB world. Increasing the social sense here would have meant implementing the ability to chat in real time outside of the discussions. Instead what they have accomplished is making site navigation as much fun as swimming through thick molasses. Navigation is nearly impossible, no way to find things that you have been involved in, I could go on but you all know the list.

I think that all of us understand that nothing is perfect on launch day. But to refuse to communicate back to us- we who use the site outside of our usual day-to-day (UNLIKE the staff) just tells us that they don't much care. In time we will all stay or go, we will certainly stop with the repeated requests to make the site more functional, and they will get on with their lives. In the process, they will lose the thing that made this site different from Ars Technica or even their own other brands. They will lose the people who have been around for 10+ years. People who cared about the site and each other. It is all really sad, to be honest.

by tink!

The only thing I do like...is the expandable thread format. Everything else was better the way it was before.

by cmiller5400

I've been around for 10+ years as well. I used "My Stuff" extensively to track what I said and where I said it. Now with water cooler stuff not showing up (last I looked) it's hard to mentally keep track of which discussions I have posted in.

I know I haven't been around as much lately, because I'm hoping they work out some of the "bugs" before I call it quits.

by jfuller05

but TR felt like a home away from just in the last year or so that I've been on. I haven't always been the most vocal poster, but I feel like I've gotten to know people and now TR just doesn't seem the same. That feeling comes from the navigation issues. It's so hard to follow any discussion now that I don't even want to participate. I still visit just to see if the TR developer team is listening to us; the regulars that actually use TR 5 to 7 days a week.

by av .

When you click the view more on the main discussions page, it goes to expanded mode and looks totally different. I find that confusing. It has no continuity in design.

On my screen, 1280 x 1024 resolution, the related tags has a menu overlayed on top of it so you can't read either one. I'm not sure if other people have that issue, but I do.

I know what you mean about how the page jumps in "Your discussion may be similar". It makes me jump too. Its startling because its so fast. Weird. I tried to post a couple of new discussions yesterday and they went out into the oort cloud never to be seen again. I thought I did it right. I chose off-topic as a tag. I dunno. Never had this problem before.

Esthetically speaking, I'd say it looks pretty at first glance, but I don't care for the bunch of boxes on a page look. They blend in together when you look at it and it makes it hard on the eyes. They have too much whitespace on the sides and nothing between the actual discussion and the other column with Hot Discussions, Hot Questions and Hot users (whoops, I mean Power Users).

I always thought that TR was pretty responsive to the minions here in the past, but I'm surprised now at their silence. How could it be that CBS Interactive isn't interacting? OK, I'm being sarcastic, but I can't help it.

Yes, we're going to hell in a handbasket, but maybe we can change that if we all yell loud enough.

AV

by ansugisalas

After that, I'd say a general strike is in order. For that we'll need some stuff:
*a temporary forum
*a mess of latex rubber gloves
*a very large aquarium
*... ah, never mind, a temporary forum will do.
And then we hold off on posting here until we get some perestroika and glasnost already.

by charliespencer

Well, ain't that just freakin' wonderful? Now what in the name of Sonja Thompson am I supposed to do with this aquarium full of gloves???

My only concern is if we strike for a week, some of us might easily forget this place exists. If this keeps up, one of us is going to be writing the entry for Jump The Shark.

by tigger_two

I hate to say it but I truly fear that is exactly what would happen.

What kills me is that all they need to do is COMMUNICATE with us. Tell us what the plan is. Let us know what is on the roadmap and when we can expect it. That information, even at a high level, would go far in getting folks to stick with it.

Not one of us is trying to be an obstructionist. We want this to succeed. That's why we are being so vocal. It frustrates me that no one sees that.

I have begged for communication. I don't understand why no one is getting it.

by santeewelding

May be too hard to tell: they intend to martyr themselves. The last man; the last woman; the last bullet.

by av .

Its better than not knowing. The fact that we haven't heard from anyone at TR isn't encouraging. We are in limbo.

AV

by ansugisalas

Perhaps the dark truth is that they're desperately in love with this flimsy, in-concrete, in-discrete, incongruous, inconsistent quick-sand morass...

by cg it

what everyone is talking about.... but I don't spend a lot of time here anymore.... but as far as following my posts, I found, today, that all my posts either to discussions or Q&A are under "My Stuff" in my account ... yep it's a pain to have to go there first, then find the posts, but it's there....

As far as questions in Discussions.... have to realize that those looking for attention [or from their perspective where they can jerk chains] will go where the most people are... that is in discussions ...and they will post spam, dumb questions, dig up old posts, for their laughs or chain jerking.... I myself just ignor that stuff.... I don't even bother to post zombie alerts anymore...waste of my time....

Questions and Answers? It's turned into a "help desk" for computer users to get free help and is not where IT Pros go.....want to go where the real IT pros go? then you have to go to a pay web site.... they go there because they won't get all the junk and people looking for laughs because those types of people won't pay a web site to be a member....

Something for TR to consider if they want IT Pros to actually visit and use their site...

by tigger_two

CG, I tend to agree. We get our share of "do my homework" questions and discussions as well. Short of a gatekeeper, I don't know that we will ever be rid of them- but I think that is reflective of how IT in general has changed.

I know Jason mentioned once that they had played with the idea of carving out a "Members Only" space. I don't know that it ever advanced beyond the concept, but I could see something like that working. From my perspective, they could reasonably consider doing something like that and making it work, but it isn't something that they could reasonably do right now while everyone is still getting used to the changes.

I think that there is a viability to the idea of a pay site- depending on the price, of course- that has room for both the serious tech and the water cooler in the corner. Back when this site was significantly more a serious technical site, I launched the first Pink Ribbon Brigade and no one minded that- they participated.

One of the things that I miss is that we used to be self policing. As I recall, you were granted a certain number of Tech Points when you signed up. You could answer questions to potentially earn more tech points. To ask a question, you "spent" tech points. That significantly reduced the number of "homework" questions. I think that model could reasonably work again.

by seanferd

I've even seen it mentioned here and there, far outside this site, as a reason for not coming to TR any more.

Now, far be it from me to kill off the kinds of questions I can answer... :p ... but there should be separate Q&A sections for stupid user tricks and real IT questions, at the least. One of the factors, though, is the declining intelligence and diligence of your average IT person. When i can point professionals to a solution, I have to wonder what the heck is going on, and why I can't have their jobs. Given the apparent skills of some of these professionals, I could replace six of them, working from home, for less pay.

I've started voting up good IT questions which are properly asked, since I now have that option.

by ansugisalas

will people be having fun at a paid site?
After all, the OT stuff is "wasting other people's money" - if said others expect to get their moneys worth.
Then, will people have a way to discuss non-professional aspects of life on a paid site? We can learn much from our peers about other things than our profession, too. We all have certain things in common (some more than others perhaps), so why talk only about the narrow slice of us that is purely professional?

by cg it

just saying that there are some IT pay sites where many IT Pros use for their sources of information...but that was 3 years ago.....

The biggest problems with an IT site is that IT itself has changed since the days of Windows 2000. IT has become like the medical industry. Disiplines have become specialized, thus the proliferation of forums and sites for those specializations. Can't simply go to one site anymore to get information...

Since TR Q&A is one of the free sites for getting help with computers, there's the proliferation of questions from the users segment, rather than IT Pros exchaning information between themselves.

by cg it

and that's what some of the questions posted in the Q&A section are... a podium for those who seek an audience....

and I seriously doubt their IT people actually working in IT. If they are, then, again, their on the podium and jerking our chains....

The pay sites keep the spammers away and they also keep those who make up hundreds of alternate IDs so we "the dumb ones" don't catch on that the questions are simply bogus....

But their, Pay Sites, not very good for adding new members or generating hype, clicks, visits that entice advertisers to pay money to advertise....

I don't have any good solutions, and I'm sure the other IT web sites have their fair share of the spammers and podium people....

by seanferd

People who can't even configure forwarders in a Windows DNS server have no business running a network. I get this sort of thing constantly.

by charliespencer

Speaking as one who can't configure forwarding in DNS, I suspect I could probably find documentation to do so in about 15 minutes. It's those that fail to research a solution before screaming for help that have no business supporting anything.

by tigger_two

From my perspective, that is the real value of being able to vote on a per post basis.

When I read something I like or that makes good sense to me, I vote it up. When I read crap, I vote it down- and this is true of nearly every post I read. Some aren't worth a mouse click either way.

by charliespencer

I flashback to the "President of the Internet" discussion, and the quality of participation that one elicited. Imagine if we'd had voting for that one. The horde of single-issue participants that one attracted would have pushed it's idiotic program to popular heights, but popular and worthwhile aren't always the same thing. People 'vote with their wallets' regularly, but McDonald's still ain't very good.

by av .

I think the real value in it would be how many reputation points you earn. The only problem is, you don't know how many points you have at any given time and they really didn't explain how reputation points work.

I've seen the voting thing on other sites, but if you're not involved with the site it means little to vote. If you vote it down, the post is collapsed. Whoopee. If you vote it up, you're just sending kudos to the post writer.

AV

by tigger_two

Once upon a time, I made a living writing. I would like to think that I could return to it.

Seeing positive feedback to what I posts helps me to understand what others desire to read. It tells me if my tone is acceptable or unacceptable. It tells me if I am actually reaching my intended audience.

To me, there is a value in "kudos to the post writer". I use that information.

by cg it

it's not going to make the those posts and the people who post them go away....even if a poster continually gets thumbs down, we might then discount them, but they aren't going away...and they will simply make up a new user name and continue on...

If we all ignored them, that might work, or refuse to answer or discuss questions or discussions that have the appearance of bogus.... any Please Help Me or those that are so blatantly easy to answer with a simple google, I ignor but it seems there are those here who can't resist....as long as they can't resist, there's an audience and those who seek one will continue to come back...

but those who want an audience really don't like it when the audience is of none.....

by seanferd

Although, if you keep the TR defaults, you won't see the posts with -10 votes, or whatever you set it to.

The point is to provide an indicator to the post author and others that the post was either appreciated or disliked. It's a hint system. No, it isn't going to make any particular user or spammer go away. OK - it would work on me. All things being equal, I'll stop posting the sort of thing that people vote down. (Or if someone I respect tells me to stuff it - that would work.)

by ansugisalas

Seems WC discussions are *special* change the /discussions/ in the URL to /questions/ and voila, you're in the DaaQ!
Doesn't work for Regular discussions.

So, if you tilt something in the WC, it drops into Q&A - no wonder then, that nobody wants to have anything to do with that place ;)

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