Turf Wars

This is one of those things you don't want tot tackle alone for fear of being isolated. Your boss needs to understand the issue and work up the executive ladder on this kind of thing.

As a service provider to this new project, you have a stake in how its implemented. You need to ensure you have a voice even if its to late to have a veto. Your manager should help make sure this happens.

James

Submit porposals of what chages you would suggest on the projects that the manager is trying to do. Get involved with what sounds like a situation you'll be dealing with.

Get with the manager and have an informal meeting. Found out what the project is and let him know your "consrtuctive" concerns. More importantly as a team member offer your support like you're supposed to do and this will work out.

Look for opportunities to further your career, perhaps before it's all said and done maybe there's something in this for you.

Redundant systems always cause redundant maintenance and result in 'bugs and "features"' that require nearly double the time to analyze, resolve, test, and implement.
Lay out in terms of anticipated cost what ongoing reconciliation and audits for consistancy will be - and how they are of no value at all when redundant systems are trying to do the same job...
Then as an alternatve, propose what changes might be done to existing (ERP ?) system to have it serve this manager's requirements... The benefit of an integrated solution (and of keeping the IT aspiring manager's fingers out of your systems) is twofold: 1) Whatever benefit that the manager can describe and 2) Savings from avoiding need to reconcile and do double maintenance.
If you do not have an established Change Control procedure in your area yet, define one [heck, put yourself in charge if you can] and make sure that any changes go thru some kind of acceptance process before implementaton - and in the case where the 'problem' manager is implementing stuff himself, make sure that he is accountable for all maintenance and support for whatever he turns over.
Remember to ALWAYS be documenting process issues and avoid identifying the problem manager specifically - let your management 'discover' who is disrupting the structure, this keeps you out of the related politics [don't even try to challenge him directly, because that presents a chance that you could lose]. Clear documentation of Change Control, Support, Auditability, and minimiation of redundant effort should serve to increase visibility to your management and provide them with tools for escalation if needed.
You have two problems:
1) Threat to system stability and maintainability (and risk of need for increased resources to support).
2) Political issue that this "IT Aspiring Manager" may 'outrank' you - so you could lose if a dispute arises [so do not deal with him directly, use your manager].

With no camera's around of course. Where is your boss? Spinlessly sitting and watching?

Being a CIO means giving your managers underneath you autonomy to perform their job function, and backing their decisions, that's what a boss is all about. And it sounds like your is missing a few vertebrae !!

In the meantime, I would do nothing to repair, fix, consult on, assist, or share responsibility for this "climber".... Let 'em do that big shoe dance at the end of a rope, all by themselves...

As long as no one can say you PURPOSELY went out of your way to NOT HELP.... your covered. Also perhaps it's time to purchase one of those tiny little recorders, and go in closed doors with a "career decision meeting" with your boss. That'll tell you right there, if he/she is part of some "get you to quit" campaign.

Don't laugh... it happens all the time. Except this time, you'll have a secret recording of the meeting, on which you'll hopefully be able to get them to incriminate themselves...... Lawyers created this mess.... welcome to business in the 21st century.

I am assuming from past history that you have some examples where things have gone wrong in the past and know from a technical perspective what type of informaiton you need... such as requested response time or Service Level, number of users, technology planned and why, security level, implementation plan (high level ... will it be a single shot weekend implementation or a phased roll out will it include a pilot... etc.)

Once you have a standard list of 20-30 generic questions/information you need create a check list with room for answers and try to make as many of them from existing selection of choices. Then I would suggest to your boss that you introduce this into the other persons "New Process" in an effort to support their endeavors :)

This way you appear to be supportive have limited their technical impacts by creating multiple choice from the technology you support and if you update this on a go forward basis ... every month ... every quarter with new technology you support then this will not be out dated (protected excel spreadsheet would be good)

Also create an loop in point on your form/check list that if they are using new technology and it impacts the following that someone on your managers team needs to be invovled in the project initiation process to ensure you are involved when needed.

Good luck...

;)

Remember, if the new guy is bringing in work, then that is not bad for you. Besides, the more IT responsibilities he attempts to take on, the more likely you will be to be working for him than your current boss. Do not burn bridges. So... work with him. You are on the same team, really. Remember your obligation is to the company: your job is to keep the network up, moving, viable. He's a new player adding work to the your environment. That's not bad, that's just how it is. If your boss is not jumping all over him, then it's not that far out of process for him to make changes. Do your best to mitigate any negative impacts, either by jumping on them right away, or by catching them ahead of time with a change process.

In either case, don't play the turf war, you will lose. Being seen as a team player is infinitely more valuable in the long run than hanging on to your turf, and eventually sets you up as the one who keeps on top of things and keeps the network moving as it should, regardless of who is throwing changes at you. A much better reputation to have.

If you haven't already, institute a change control process. It won't look like you're picking on his implementations if you institute change control across the board, and it will make you look like a forward thinking team player.

By the way, document, document, document. Keep a problem log or something; a steno pad, I don't care, just something. If you need to be able to show that any problems were beyond your control, you will need both a change control process to show how you try and head off problems, but you will also need documentation as to what you did, and how you handled problems when they did arise. Gotta CYA. Always. I don't care how good your boss is.

as MichaelPO indicated, find out where you stand with management and if they will back you up. From personal experience, know if management (including your boss) has already made a decision about you. if that is the case, better to find a new job. i found hard to believe that this can happen...but (unfortunately) it is the reality.
good luck

Have you an employment contract? If so, check it for your responsibilities. If it is vague or your actual responsibilities don?t match those on the contract, explain the situation to your manager and ask for a new contract. Also explain that it is unreasonable to expect you to be responsible for a network over which you have no control and explain that you want that fact to be included in your contract. If you remain calm and unruffled during this discussion you will give your manager no excuse to lose his temper or fire you or generally get angry with you. If he does get angry, explain in a calm manner that you have many years worth of experience of their particular network and it would take many months for a newcomer to gain even a fraction of your knowledge. If your manager has any brains at all he may realise that this remark also applies to him!

Finally, keep a lookout for another job. I used to change jobs every 18 months or so, not quite out of choice but if things looked bad where I worked, I voted with my feet. I don?t know how much you are valued by the management but if they do value you as an employee, they won?t want to lose you and you may have more power than you realise. I don?t know how mobile you are or what the availability of employment in your field in your area is so my ?change your job? advice may not be easy to follow.

Wow! Your story sounds soooo familiar. I am an enterprise admin working in a quite large IT department for a global corporation with several disparate application and technical groups. In our case, it is a director of one of these app groups that wants to "do it his way".

I do not know what advice to give you, but what you need most is backing from your management. After almost 10 years with this company, my manager, and VP above him, trust my judgement and always back me in my decisions, even if they may clash with this other director's ideas.

Keep management on your side by doing your job to the best of your abilities and knowing which battles to fight and when to back off. Keep what is best for the business in mind and you will always come out ahead.

Definitely get your boss involved. It sounds like your strongest objection available is the duplication of efforts that this manager is attempting to create. Multiple ERP systems will create a system with lots of duplicate data entry. Find and identify as many examples of this as you can. It will also take additional personell to maintain the system. Make sure the administrative and finance management know about the extra work involved for them and I think you might begin to gain some allies. Also, if management knows new personell will be needed to run and maintain the system they probably won't be as keen on giving in to creating another IT department. Find out what feature this guy expects to get out of the new ERP and if it's already available for the current. If it is I would be extremely suprised if it wouldn't be less expensive to upgrade your current ERP. I'd use constructive criticism, via email - report your findings so that it clearly explains the disadvantages of the new ERP being proposed. (and save all the emails)
-Good Luck,

OK - first off don't get into a pissing contest so he is playing in your sand box, be a team player. Approcah it as how is him having his own IT going to benefit the corporation or business.

As the bosses if your department is delivering less than expected - approach it on business terms - what is best for the business and corporation... Will the money be better spent - there or here?

You start a pissing contest - well you lost everything - let him start the contest - then approach every issue on business / cost terms and you'll win..

I too was caught up in one of these. When the s*** hit the fan I had all the e-mails I had sent to the manager about the potential issues and my recommendations. Needless to say I survived the bloodletting and was given a fair amount of sway (and most importantly was included from the start) when other projects came up, even if they weren't directly related to IT.

All I can say is to make sure you know what you're talking about, make your recommendations as you would as part of any team (don't even think about trying to withhold any information!) and document everything (including their replies to you). If you have any concerns that they don't acknowledge then send those to your boss, in the first instance, or another manager who has involvement. As I was the head of IT (we had only just been formed) I had to send it to another manager.

You said two things in your original post that struck me as the heart of the situation:

1) I have been managing my network and user base for many years.

2)An technically inept Manager plans to create their very own ERP system that will be completely independent of the ERP already in place.

Is it possible that this Manager is involved heavily in the ERP system - not from a technical standpoint, but from a user standpoint? Does his dept somehow depend on the ERP system to be productive? Has he expressed dissatisfaction with the current ERP system?

This sounds to me like a situation where a new ERP system is coming and this Manager is pushing the project - probably because he believes the new system is better than the old one.

Sometimes IT gets stuck in thinking that they should have the final say in every decision made that involves hardware and software. However, salespeople selling systems often go to the department head that can cost justify an upgrade or will see the benefit from a new system.

I work in an industry where our salesmen work with Dept. Managers about a software/hardware solution. It's not until the sale is made that the IT people are involved in the process - unless I am consulted and promptly draw them into the process. In my opinion, it's easier to get some input from IT upfront and get their enthusiastic cooperation than to try to work around them when the time comes to implement the new system....but you'd be surprised how often it goes the other way.

I say..hang in there. You will find that you are involved with the new ERP sysem when the time comes to roll it out. This Manager doesn't want to run the IT dept - he's just trying to do a better job running his dept.

Hi,

I have the same problem to some extent. I am CIO of an academic hospital and dealing with clinicians can be difficult in the same way you expressed. I found that making every project clear at the beginning has been the best and most consistant approach. For every project submitted by a clinician, we now have a standard project definition template that defines the project objectives (both business and technical), the project risks (this is where you put your concerns), the project assumptions (very important for you), the project deliverables, every parties responsibilities (very very important) and if you can a kind of SLA where you specify a level of service if certain technical and/or business conditions are met. For every project, I must sign the document as well as the sponsor. Even though this document does not prevent all the problems, it does give a clear message to the other party that you're serious in this and that you are willing to guarantee quality but only to the point you can predict the environment. Believe me, this changes quite a few things in any kind of relationship!

Hope this helps.

First I would discuss your concerns with this Manager, but be prepared to backup your concerns with what can potentially happen if the project is not thoroughly thought out. Where can money be lost if this fails or is not thought out logically? What benefits is it going to bring your company and how?

Next I would send an email, (the words you use are very important in the way you express yourself) to him/her and copy the appropriate decision makers expressing your insight into the possible problems that can and probably will occure, (try to be as positive as possible, highlighting the benifits about this project if there are any) Be as diplomatic as possible shifting the accoutability to this ambitious non technical Manager. Make it absolutly clear that if the proper people are not consulted and they jump into this big IT project without getting insight from the IT folks, then they're the ones who will have to clean it up.

Next I would save both a digital and hard copy of your email just in case you need it in the future.

*note* this is just my opinion and it may not work out to your benifit if you take my advise. Just an outside opinion that has no knowledge of your place of work or the people there. In the end it's you that has to face this challange.

Kind regards,
J.S.

Hmmm, have dealt with this in numerous situations.

But the one thing has never failed me, once I have confirmed my perception that the other individual attempting to complete their agenda is a non-technical person trying to cite to management and peers that they have the ability to implement something that does require a significant amount of technical skill that they may or may not have, I stand back and let the individual try to fulfill their objectives. If I say something or complain, then people take the perception that I am jealous, or I am not a team player.

As with any other major implementation, there is always risk to the company and its business, and more importantly your job, so you should always be careful to take note of the activities that are going on, and make sure that where it interacts with your job, handle that to the best of your ability. When any particular risk has the potential to be catastrophic, then yes, like others have said, go to your manager and he/she should be ready to stand up for you, if they do realize your true value to the company.

So, keep doing what you do, and excel at it, and sooner or later Management will discover this either by this individual's own ineptness, or the opportunity for you to 'shine' will be present itself, and management (if they have even one ounce of perception skills) will see that they should have consulted you in the first place.

Just my $.02 worth..

Many excellent suggestions on tactics and strategies; I am writing to give you a different perspective: personal growth.

Many of us, myself included, grew up to believe that the road to professional success was to learn all the technical how-tos and memorize all the information.

But there are other components for successfully getting ahead that we have neglected -- for example, how to promote our accomplishments [for myself, I just assumed that everyone else out there would know enough to be dazzled by my technical acumen but they actually don't know enough either to be dazzled by me or to understand the inadequacy of the non-technical to lead a technical development.]

We need to develop some of the 'softer' skills -- like Leadership, Relationship building, communciation, etc. Our goal is to be more effective within our organizations and be heard and understood at higher levels so we will be less prone to have to clean up someone elses mess. These skills can be built via training, self-paced instruction, courses, etc. I can make specific suggestions if you are interested.

What I interrupt from your Post is that this manager is not an IT manager or even in the IT department. If that is correct and as you say this manager wants to set up a separate IT department for management, or a separate department altogether or both. Then I would as do what ever I could to make that happen ASAP. Help build it and move it off of your plate ASAP. The sooner it is removed from your plate the better off you will be. Let it succeed of fail on it?s own. If they are to shallow or pompous to take the wisdom and advice of an experienced IT professional then do a major C.Y.A. as you document what you are told to do and just do as they want regardless of consequence. Make certain that everything is documented and do as the documentation states. If you have documented proof that you did as you were told regardless of how feeble the plan it is then you are giving the manager a shovel to dig a hole which will bury the manager or to build a throne that the manger will rule from. Either way it?s off your plate ASAP and you go on with your business.

Just make certain that you document your requests for clarification and the responses you get and let fly. The manager will either sink or swim you just need to stay away from the pond so to speak. If the other management is in bed with this manager then all making waves will do is drown you. Get it off your plate and let the inevitable happen. If you C.Y.A. then you are being a smart team player. You will come up roses if fails or succeeds. If it fails then you just whip out the documentation when the bad news comes your way. Management tends to stick together especially when things go bad except when they don?t have someone like you to blame. Then they start pointing fingers and scatter. That is why you must play along and document everything. You wont get the blame if it fails because it will be documented and you will get credit which will be documented if it succeeds. Just play the game by the rules that they make as it goes along and you will be fine. If you are told to make a hundred foot bridge and in the middle you are told to make a ninety degree turn half way across. Ask for clarification and just do it. The egg will be on the face of those who instructed you to do just that. After all management is management and management calls the shots.

.
It's to no one's advantage to continue in such an atmosphere of uncertainty and frustration.

Request a meeting with these "decision makers", as you called them, and the manager in question, and simply ask to discuss "your" job responsibilities. Let them all know that you're becoming more confused about where your responsibilities lie, and you want to review them so everyone can be working towards the same ends.

Your situation is something that happens on many IT Shops today. Due to the increasing complexity of IT technology, non technical managers find many difficulties communicating with their technical staff and indeed reaching their IT objectives. It will be very difficult for the non-technical managers to understand technology at the levels a technician does. What most managing officers are doing is to hire quasi-technical managers to run their IT shops. This managers do not have and in deep knowledge on IT Technology, but they know how to talk into business language.

What can good technicians do to overcome this tendency? Non-Technical managers will not be able to become knowledgeable technicians.

The opportunity is on your side. You can learn to talk into business language. Express your opinions in terms of return on investment, business security, technical workload, cost of ownership, resources, etc. That's the language managers understand. When you talk into bits and bytes they get confused and blame you for that.
Learn their communication protocol, that's the success key.

This is not a war or to say who is the person to blame of. the manager must have some reasons to convince the decision makers, so 1st thing to do is find out what is the reasons!! then start tackling from the reasons.
from the reason, try to explain to decision makers and the involved manager about the cost and time factors involved in having a redundant system in the company, explain to the decision maker as well what will be the outcome if using everyone creating his own set of system, how many extra cost and confusion involved, this will be very interesting for the decision maker.
finally, after all of this, TRY to COORPORATE with the managers, to help create a better solution (IT) for the compony, with this no one will be "hurt" and everyone gets what he wants.

I know this forum is supposed to be about helping Becker, but you took it upon yourself to flame me, so I think some self defense is appropriate.

My sarcasm was to try and get Becker to face the realities of his situation. And if you have tolerated whiny-butt people coming to you asking you to show them how to use a spreadsheet and you complied, then you have been wasting your time too.

Unless it's a really small company, couldn't you refer them to the training department? If you don't have one, then organize one (if you have time-if you don't, let management know about the problem and hire someone to organize one, or do it on a part time/outsourced consutlation/basis as needed).

Maybe I've been lucky, but the companies I have worked for (admittedly most of them pretty big with many departments) have clearly defined job performance descriptions, and I have never faced being held accountable for "holding someone by the hand" when it was not part of my job to do so. If it was in my job description, then of course I would have to see to it, otherwise, no way. But don't just leave them hanging, it's obvious they need help from somewhere.

When you manage an IT department for 500 to a thousand engineers and executives, you can't be expected to know everyone's job and show them the best way to do it. That's THEIR job.

If your users can't tell you what information they need to have (not specific data formats, just the type of info) and what they intend to do with it (so you know what format is best for them), then they don't have any idea what they are doing in their jobs either.

If that's the case, then make up a questionnaire, solicit information on a regular basis and analyze it to help you provide the best service for your users.

My suggestion would be as follows:

1)Documentation
2)Documentation
3)Documentation

What I mean is, make sure that you get the manager to document for you what these decisions are and what he specifically means by them. Get this in writing (electronic or not) as completely as possible. You can do this by querying him for addtional details as you go. SAVE everything he sends you on the subject and make sure you outline (subtly) your objections when you have them, and detail your concerns or solutions.

The objective is to document that he is directing you with bad decisions (if they are) and covering your own behind by showing that you raised issues with solutions that were ignored.

This doesn't really solve your problem in that it won't remove the guy immediately, but it will certainly help keep you from looking incompetent and, hopefully, put the spotlight back on him. It also has the potential to backfire in that if he follows your advice it will make him look good and he'll stay ahead of you, but he's already there now (you might have been napping).

Hope it helps.

Randy

I have been through this same thing three times! I tried to join in, accept what is going on and doing a presintation on how we improve and help the network. But the new boss, who has never worked with IT but has years with improving other departments. Documation, save all emails, memos and anything else. Most new CIO,s CTO's or what ever have no idea what has been done and do not care how much work has been done!
You need to have on hand what you have done and how much it has helped. The new company heads are looking to reduce cost and the more cost is reduced the more they make. It's so republicon I need to go to the server room and relax!

actually mhartley@gol.com - here is the real issue in my opinion.

more tech saavy positons are being created. everything from DBA's to CSO's to Business Analysts. All these people are skilled tech folk. Management is taking the stand that these tech folk understand what the "business" is all about a lot better than IT staff. Therefore it makes more sense for them to take on more IT related duties. because they are already "technical" there should is a very small learning curve involved.

what comes into question is managements ability to make those decisons based on the what information? project management states try to keep people who are on the same side involved in the project. in order to keep your project moving along, try to keep everyone involved happy or make sure you only have people that see eye to eye involved in the project. if a project manager is given the choice of playing politics or just excluding the "bad apple" - what will they do? chose the shortest path available to the sucess of their project.

You seem to have left out some crucial information
in your request for advice. How big is your company? How long have you been there? How long has your boss been there and how old is he? How long has the other manager been with the company and his age? Does the other manager make any valid
points in his arguments? Is your boss ambitious or
is he satisfied with the status quo? Are you over satisfied with the status quo? Can you honestly say your department is on the cutting edge and properly responsive to the needs of the users? Who established your present systems? Anyone current or were they inherited? From how long ago?
Are you loyal to your boss? Is this loyalty perhaps misguided? Are you afraid of the other manager because he is an unknown element? Are you afraid you and your skills are obsolete or are about to be come so? Why are you with that company
and why do you want/need to stay there? The really
big question her is, WHAT DO YOU WANT????? Not for the company, not for your department, not for your boss but you, WHAT DO YOU WANT - FROM YOUR
LIFE, YOUR JOB, YOUR FRIENDS AND LOVED ONES????
Answer that and the next question has to be, what are you prepared to do and how far will you go to achieve your goals??? Are you prepared to take the necessary steps to achieve your goals or have you already told yourself that it's too late, too hard or your too old, too busy, to get into this now? Are these questions too tough or personal for you? They shouldn't be because nobody will ask them of you but you should be asking them of
yourself IF and this is a big IF, you want to be and can be objective about yourself. The natural tendency is to allow one's self to grow overly comfortable in a satisfactory situation. Note, I said satisfactory not satisfying. We all have different ideas on what is saisfying and only you
can say what yours is. Comfort however, can lead to complacency and dull your sense of awareness to what is happening around you. How's your situational awareness??? Has your company peaked or is it entering the entropy stage? It doesn't have to be the whole company. It could be your division or your branch of it. Hopefully it isn't your department. It seems to me your slipping into a political situation wherein the other manager is ambitious and has set about empire building. Rightly or wrongly he has identified your department as a "soft" target. If he is right he is going to win regardless of his lack of technical knowledge. Technical knowledge can always be hired and good managers can be trained.
Great managers seem to be born with a management gene in their DNA but this doesn't mean they will be a winner everytime out of the gate. Remember Apple Computer. They brought in the guy who had lifted Pepsi to the point where the boss at Coke felt threatened enough to bring out a new formula. That was a mistake and the boss paid the
price by publicly falling on his sword. In the mean time the Pepsi guy was flying high and when Apple felt it was losing market share, around 18% at the time, so they kicked out Steve Jobs and brought in some frog from France and the Pepsi guy. Before they were finished they had Apple's market share down around 4% and it looked like Apple was about to go the way of Commodore and other early entries to the world of computers. Jobs was brought back, which must have been humbling for the people who had booted him. Jobs,
so far, has saved the company. It hasn't exactly regained its former glory but it is no longer circling the drain. Jobs is a great manager of a tech company the Pepsi guy is a grat manager of a soft drink or consumables company; they should each stick to what they're good at.
You are probably thinking all of this isn't answering your question or providing much in the way of advice but it does cut to the nitty gritty. Why and what are you afraid of with the other manager? You could end up further ahead with him than your present boss. If this guy is out to carve himself an empire make sure he is carving on his empire and not on you. You seem to want the status quo which, to me at least, the surest way to career stagnation and that could ultimately turn you into a sitting duck or target. Either can be fired - on. The moving or upwardly mobile target is much harder to hit. In case you are telling yourself it's too late or you're too old to learn new things let me use this occasion to remind you of Colonel Harland Sanders. He was 67 years old when he opened his first KFC restaurant so, as you can see, you're never too old or too late unless they keep throwing dirt on you. I know how I would answer this for myself but only you know what you want and know to what limits you will go. Neither I nor anyone else should or can answer that except yourself. My only advice is try and keep yourself
clean and above the fray but keep an eye out for what is best for you and go after it. Maybe you should be looking out to establish your own empire
and while your boss and the other manager battle it out you could come up the middle with a neat cost effective solution to everything. That would be my choice but what the hell everyone knows I'm
a low down mean and nasty SOB. Whatever, goodluck on whatever you decide.

Hi Becker-2004

I would call it quit and look for a better job.
He is elemnating you by not be updated and then no need for you. It looks to me you may have said some thing or did some thing did not made him happy and you did not notice or forgatten.

sorry it is not personle but happend to me.