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Underpaid by age

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by trek05 1 view

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I've worked as the systems administrator, or "IT Guy", at the current company for about three years (company has two locations, supporting between 80-90 PCs).I started out there on the younger side of the spectrum, and I feel underpaid for my abilities. In other words, if I started off in this career later in my life, I believe I would be paid higher. Any other feelings out there about being underpaid?

86 replies

by bfilmfan

Compare your skill set and experience in the field to some of the IT salary calculators and surveys running about the Internet.

And like the AD on TechRepublic said:

If Salary Sucks
Then Dice.com

by fernbowers

By obtaining a top secret security clearance,
completing a Masters Degree online from
strayer university, and currently going after
a second masters in network security (along with
Oracle & MCSE training), I was able to get a 40%
increase in Salary. This does not include the perks. I've been around since the 80s. The same game you use to get where you are, it the same
game you have to play to increase your opportunities or to just stay in the game.
Just my personal opinion.

by navy moose

I have a security clearance only because I am in the Air Force Reserve and it was required for my AFSC(MOS to Army folks). I could never have afforded to do it on my own and there are very few companies who are willing to foot the bill for it, at least not at the SysAdmin level.

I'm not completely positive a graduate degree is the answer either. I completed my MBA at the end of 2004 and it is occupying a place next to my BS as wall paper. I have not seen many positions in the Boston area in a technical capacity where they are looking for a graduate degree.

Getting certs is good way to increase marketability.

I prefer experience and formal education as a way to move up.

Just my $0.02.

Thank you for listening.

by placidair

That to increase your salary by much, you generally have to jump ship and go elsewhere. And while dice.com is certainly a viable way to go -- I've had better luck with Monster.com myself. I get about 2 hits off of my shielded resume there a week minimum. Some days I get several -- and I'm not even looking at the moment.

In IT you generally need to think about leaping every 2-3 years in order to move up much. Looking for at least a 20% salary increase with each leap. I've more than doubled my salary in 6 years doing that. But you also need to be thinking in those terms during the 2-3 years in your current position... what projects can you get involved in where you are that will incfease your value when you leave? Has someone offered you training in anything? Take it. Never turn down free training. Has someone asked you to get involved in a project totally outside of your usual scope? Do it, you'll learn new skills and enhance your resume. Have they asked you to take on more responsibilities? Ask for more money, but even if they won't pay more, take on the tasks -- your NEXT employer will compensate you for those skills.

by tonythetiger

Every young whipper-snapper thinks he's underpaid. That's as it should be ... higher pay is like the carrot dangling in front of you to keep you on the advance track.

by trek05

Isn't there a limit though of how underpaid you could be? As people in the IT field, we are required to keep systems going, in crisis situations and in day to day operations. That has to come with a cost, right?

by tonythetiger

It boils down to what you're willing to work for vs. what your employer is willing to pay, taking into account what the market will bear on both sides. Absent contractual obligations to the contrary, if either of you is unhappy with the current agreement, it can easily enough be re-negotiated or terminated.

Many employees over-estimate their worth to the company, and it seems that the amount of over-estimation is roughly inversely proportional to age. In other words, many kids think they should, immediately upon graduating, start working their dream job at their dream company at somewhere near the top of the pay scale. They have no concept of building toward a goal, of working your way up.

Some kids have the talent to pull this off, and some do. Most don't, and of those who don't, about a third of them ending up working toward their goal, gaining expertise and eventually proving their worth, while the rest whine and complain about how little they have. They're mostly spoiled brats!

Of course, in this day and age where many think that victimhood should be worn proudly, like an Olympic medal or something, we need a scapegoat for this phenomenum ... and I have it, PARENTS! That's right Mom and Dad, it's all your fault! You should be taken out and flogged!

by bschaettle

If you're doing the same job for more money, fairly soon your employer will figure out that they can fire you and hire a new kid for half the salary. Happens about the time you want to send your kids to college.

by trek05

Good employees will validate a high salary, unless the company is going under.

by sloan

I used to think that if you were good at your craft, experienced, and performed well above average, that your employer would be fine with your higher salary.

Then the company I worked for was bought out by another, and about a year later "my services were no longer needed". Because I have friends that still work there, I know "the rest of the story".

My former boss hired two college grads with salaries that totaled less that half what I made. Later, he had to hire a third, and forth person to keep up with the demands of my former position.

I'm not saying these new hires weren't any good at their jobs, I'm sure they were very good. I am saying that it was not reasonable to expect them to come in and understand a complex application under development, or to have the experience to avoid some of the pitfalls that were obvious to someone with more experience.

Trying to save a buck by using more of a less expensive resource has been a part of business for a very long time, and will be as long as there are in-experienced managers...

by fernbowers

I totally agree. The kids are spoiled and do not want to pay their dues. I talk to kids here
at my job and they are starting in the 80 -90s
due to the degree. Do you know how many years and
prayers it took me get there????
Also, kids try to tell Senior peers what to do.
Most of it is just theory. They can talk the talk, but cant walk the walk. It is very frustrating when you try to mentor them.
They all have the case of the "i knows".
if it was not for the internet, where they pull
down information real-time, they would be lost.
I'm old school. We had to drag the documentation
home and read to understand. Not to get a quick fix to problems that arise.

by tonythetiger

"Working smarter, not harder" :)

Unfortunately, working smarter often means avoiding major screw-ups (or at least avoiding the blame) until they can hop to the next job.

by trek05

I understand that their are those fresh out that are making 80's and 90's. But for a second lets talk about smaller companies that don't have the ability of paying that high for IT personnel. I feel there should be a line drawn with how low pay can be for a certain job title. My feeling is, if you are a network administrator, you should be in the ballpark of what other small business net admins are making. Not drastically less. You have to factor in the after hours calls, etc. That should somehow be factored into a salary. Which leads to another point. Should IT techs be salaried or hourly paid?

by tonythetiger

The market will determine how low pay can be. Your skills compared to others', the size of the company (number of users, number of servers, etc.) will all have an effect. Additionally, the exact duties of a "Network Administrator" may differ widely from company to company, so comparisons may not be entirely accurate.

Bottom line: What someone else is making should be irrelavent. If you don't like what you're offerred, negotiate. If the negotiations aren't to your satisfaction, look somewhere else.

by spareher

Your supposition doesn't take into account how people work. Someone will pay you as little as they can and no more than what they think your job is worth. Obviously you took the position that your have at whatever the starting salary was and that was acceptable to both the employer and you (you took the job, right?). The employer is under no obligation to raise your salary or reward you for the good job you do. They are currently paying you what the job is worth to them, and if they've given you any raises, it's to avoid the cost training someone to take your place.
Unfortunately, the only way to show them that your compensation is inadequate or inappropriate for the job you do is to ask for a raise and not getting it, move on. If enough people do this serially, then the company will raise the minimum that they're willing pay for your job to a more "appropriate" level.
Here's the kicker: if you move on will you get the "right" amount compensation at the new job? Or will you have to start all over again? Weigh what you're currently paid versus what you might have to settle for if you move on. Which is more? You may find you need to stick where you are until you have some experience and or certs to put on a resume. Also, avoid relying on the salary survey sites that show what you should be paid for your position. They tend to reflect what large corporations will pay and not what your local market will bear in the small to medium size businesses. Obviously small to medium businesses will be less.
As far as the salary vs. hourly discussion goes, you'll probably get more money in your paycheck if you go salary, but you'll find you have to work more. Many times more than it's worth. A company will pay you salary if they know the overtime costs with hourly compensation. If you're hourly and go overtime, they'll start kicking you out the door at 40 hours, no matter what still has to be done. Remember they want to pay you as little as they can for the work that you do.

by phoenix1999

The problem is not that younger IT professionals are spoild and don't wan't to pay their dues, it's you old timers don't give credit where credit is due. Yes there are some people that expect to make a lot of money right out of college, but the fact of the matter is that younger IT professionals are introduced to technology a lot earlier then you old timers. I was six years old when I first learned how to use a computer, and that was on an Apple IIc, when did you first learn to use a computer? Younger IT professionals know just as much as you old timers the problem is that they don't have the experience. When I graduated from college it took me three years to get into an IT profession primarely because I didn't have business experience, not because of my knowledge. Now I work for a company where the upper management knows less than I do about technology and what it takes to run a network and they make four times more money than I do. Explain that one to me! It's frustrating when the company pions have to mentor the upper management!

by nemesis"t"warlock

You were an IT newbie when they hired you. I'm guessing that for a company with 80-90PCs then the internal IT job really isn't that huge an issue to them.

This isn't true for all 80-90PC companies but lets be honest, the job you do for them no matter how hard you work isn't going to be the same as doing that same job for a company with 3-4000PCs is it?

Look long and hard at the company you joined. You are still there because it's what you know and you know you can do that job. You were hired because they had a small budget, IT wasn't important and they kept you because you did at least a half-decent job so they didn't have to fire you.

Unless the work you've done has helped them grow to a world-beater, transformed their operations so that the cost structure is now so low and the production rates have increased to levels that make money grow on trees, then all you are is an IT administrator. Your knowledge has grow because they've paid you to grow it in order to do your job.

Now you are in the age old conundrum. You either possess more skill (or believe you do) than the company either needs or can justify the value of. You are in that position because they gave you a chance where most others wouldn't. They are relying on your gratitude for this (and your fear of change) to stay loyal to them. You are relying on them recognising what an up and coming star you are. If you can justify it in any other way than saying,"look what other guys earn" then you should try. If it is simply saying I've been here a long time and I don't screw up anymore when I create the 6-monthly new employee's account then your only option is to sell your skills elsewhere and find out what it's like to be a small fish in a big ocean.

I've been there and it's not an easy choice. Loyalty versus self advancement. Ultimately changes in my family life forced me to change for monetary reasons. It hasn't all been uphill but it was worth it. I know others that took the plunge and they struggled to stay afloat.

If you truly believe in yourself it's time to move on because you'll never become the CEO or even get promoted since you are simultaneously at the top and the bottom of your ladder. If you love your job, like the people you work with, and do not feel all that ambitious then enjoy life within the budget available to you.

by trek05

The business here has the drive to become huge. Over the course of time I've directly helped support that cause. So there should be some incentive in the form of dollar signs to keep up with the new developments. No, I don't work for charity. I work for a profitable business. Without IT, one way or another, they would collapse. I think they fail to recognize that. PCs, servers, network hardware was all built by imperfects, therefore needs support. They need to grip onto that fact.

by dr dij

or without electricity, or sewer connections or phone systems they would also collapse.

those are commodity systems.
what are you doing to make IT not a commodity but a strategic asset?

by somebozo

well either make them realize that u have helped them simplify operations and cut down cost

or find a job which pays more..

by micsyssoft

One thing it took me several years to figure out was that it is every manager's job to get as much work out of their employees as they can for as little pay as they have to give them. It's an open market, and it's a tough business, but it's just business. Don't take it personally when you feel underpaid (unless there are compelling reasons why you should).

I've found that a person who is motivated by wages is always an unhappy person. Money is a short time motivator, and every employer knows that. Learn to focus on your job duties and responsibilities, and do the best you can. Then, if you know that you are worth more than you are being paid, quit and get a job where you make more.

I once left a company where I was sure I was being underpaid. Within two years, I had doubled my salary. Then I went back to the original company with another increase in salary, and stayed there several more happy years. It can be done, but it is risky.

If you are happy with your job, count your blessings. If you are not happy, quit it regardless of how much you make and get a job you can enjoy. Then you will have found the happiness everyone else is looking for.

by ornerdoug

I started out in this field at 37 1/2 which to me was late to start a new career path, or maybe it was because I have already work in a factory setting for 15 years prior.
I have been at my current job for over 2 1/2 years and I am only making slightly higher than what I made working in the factory prior to returning to college at 33 years old.
So at this point in my life I am wondering if going in debt for college was even worth the time and effort.
I am now salaried so a 50 - 60 hour week is the norm, whereas that would of been 10 to 20 hours overtime in my prior life.

by ruthie56

Have you looked at salary surveys and presented them at the time of review?... If not, try it. If you are unhappy with your salary.... and they refuse to up it... are you willing to leave?

by trek05

I have looked at the salary survey, and am clearly underpaid. So while I'm working during the day, I have that on my mind. Underpaid, under appreciated. At this point, not ready to risk bringing up the money factor and loosing a job.

by sparker

I have never met anyone who didn't think they were underpaid. My current salary is way under the IT industry norm, but some industries use their own scales. Law firms in particular have a salary scale they go by that does not conform to industry norms. Talk to local headhunters about salary norms in your area.

by kunstj

I am content at my current salary. It allows me to support my family of 5 and pay my mortage and got what i need with a few treats here and there. I would like to make more of course to give myself a better retirement, move into a larger home, save for and pay cash for a new car, save more for my children's retirement, take more vacations, etc... but i don't feel i am underpaid..

by mwatch

The only connection to age is experience level. When you started you must have felt that it was a reasonable rate of reimbursement. You've gained more experience since starting and your opinion has changed.

Your original premise was a bit off the mark and makes me think that you would benefit from some exposure to business economics. Try getting some training in business areas outside of IT. It will make you a more valuable employee and give you the ability to make a more comprehensive contribution to your employer. THAT MAKES YOU MORE VALUABLE!

Smaller companies are often a good spring board for people that are starting out. That is still true and can be used to grow in the same building.

I've been where you are now, now I'm the business owner. A more rounded employee ALWAYS has more opportunity than a HYPER focused super tech. The techie will top out sooner purely for economic reasons. The only option then is to move to a larger company that has more levels in the IT department.

The idea of being "underpaid" is over used. You are still there working and collecting the check. Build your case for a career path, NOT A SALARY INCREASE. It had better not be about how quickly the business will crumble without your support. IT WON'T and it shouldn't if you are doing the job correctly.

by trek05

To begin with I was the IT guy, then was taught other parts of the business. I learned how to be a phone tech, and many other things. 9 chances out of 10 when anybody has any problem even remotely related to IT, they'll come to me. They expect me, based on my knowledge, to at least give a suggestion or point them in the right direction. For that reason of my versatility, I feel monetary reimbusement is appropriate.

by too old for it

Back in the dot-com era, I was early 40-something.

The young hot-shots with a full head of hair and an all-black wardrobe got the big sign-on bonus checks, and the keys to the company Porsche. Us older guys were needed, but since they paid so much for the hot-shot, his support had to be paid some deplorable rate.

STILL waiting for some of these companys, who now realize their error, to come back and offer some re$pect to the old guys.

Now that business drives IT (rather than IT driving business, which was more fun) I don't see it getting any better.

by trek05

What if all IT support ceased to exist? Where would the company be when you can no longer have all the company branches linked together under one big virtual "roof"?

I'm not saying that things are getting better, but as a younger indivual, seeing where IT has gone, gone to a place of not the same importance, is hard to take. Its hard to try to achieve the ultimate, when the forefathers of IT are neglected in a great deal.

by jamesrl

It is true that IT is no longer the big change agent that it used to be, and that has impacted salaries. This is standard business cycle stuff. The first car manufacturers made a fortune, then as the market consolidated and cars became a commodity not a rarity, many manufacturers went bust or sold out to a larger competitor.

Gartner Group talks about Type A, B, and C companies.

Type A companies use technology to their strategic advantage. Great IT makes them great and profitable. They do stuff on the leading edge and take risks.

Type B companies are more conservative and mainstream. They don't see IT as a big cost saver, but on a tactical level they do try for some cost improvements through IT. They are not early adopters, taking a more cautious approach.

Type C companies see having some IT as a necessary evil, they view IT as a cost centre, a cost of doing business, like an internal mail service. They want to constantly reduce the cost of IT.

If you want to find a place where IT matters, you may have to either transform the place you are at (not likely) or find a new employer.

I've been in your position, and if you complain too much about your salary, it can have a negative impact on your prospects.

I would look for another job.

James

by dr dij

roads or trucks ceased to exist, we'd no longer be able to ship products worldwide. what if ...
what if... what if computers ceased to exist?

you do exist and you make money off it.

all people at a biz are essential.
in a non-IT services envt you are NOT their core biz. you could even be a candidate for outsourcing in a larger company.

as IT admin you are setting up a somewhat static service for the company, i.e. the PC and networks.

I'd venture that more money tends to be paid to professions that implement new programs that expand your company's capabilities or save large amounts of money, such as lean mfg, new major computer applications, etc.

by bg6638

I've been in IT for 30 yrs, mainly working as a "one man" IT dept, who has been out of work for nearly two years due to a corporate bankruptcy. In my search for a new position, I can tell you that if you think you could have started an IT career later in life, you're VERY wrong! At least in the midwest US, to get a job in IT, you need *ALL* of the following: between 25 to 45, BS in CS/MIS, 5+ yrs exp in IT in progressively more responsible jobs, and a raftload of certs from Cisco, Citrix, Msoft, Redhat and others.

As to being underpaid, I'd rather be underpaid than NOT paid at all! Count your blessings if you still have an IT job, as many are flying overseas to Bangalore. Consider... $600/mo is a highly paid job over there! Now do you think you are underpaid??

by stargazerr

I AM underpaid ... My Boss admits that. He even raised my salary up a notch. But I dont reckon it is because I am young since the average age in my company is 27.

I am still trying to find out why I am being treated like this. Maybe my evaluation next month will bring some light to this matter

]:)

by williamrcastillo

The funny thing about income is that we all learn to live at the level we earn. So no matter how much you make as soon as you reach the point where you have used it all up and gone into debt you are underpaid. Sucks.

I suggest you learn soem financial discipline, learn to manage what you have and to live within your means.

YOu want more do the things it takes to get more. Why do peolpe make more than you 9 out of 10 times they have flat out earned it. They have done it longer, they have aquired more skills, they have brought more to the table.

Don't kid yourself you earn what you are worth and you spend what you earn. If you disagree get out and look for a new job!

Don't waste you day whinning about what you don't have. give thanks you have somethign and make a plan that will lead you up the raod to what you want.

Calvin COllidge said persistene is the key to sucess. He was a US President.

by jamesrl

When I was a member of an organization for helping professionals find jobs I learned some interesting lessons. Most of us live in countries with a "progressive" tax system. So the more you make, the more you are taxed, and the rate goes up as you go. So the difference between say, $50,000 and $60,000 is not as high as you might imagine on the bottom line - your take home pay.

I'm earning 2/3(gross not net) of what I used to make. I live in the same house(with a mortgage), pay the same bills, have the same number of kids. We go out less. We spend less on frills. We watch our money more carefully.

James

by stargazerr

Let Me Explain

First. My Boss admits that I am underpaid and is doing everything he can to get me a salary raise (He needs to do it through the CEO). So I am NOT earning what I deserve.

Second. I have more that 60% of what I earn, saved. So I have a lot more financial discipline than all the guys in my office put together (They are forever complaining that they are broke)

Third. I agree that everyone in my office has earned what they deserve. They are sales guys and get bonuses. I get a basic Salary.

Fourth. I am working 14-16 hrs a day. I wont say that I am doing any less than what I am being paid to do.

Fifth. I might Rant and Shout and Complain but I am not quitting this job because I love it way too much and I am ver thankful for that.

Sixth. I am just going with the flow. So if you happen to think that I am getting personal, Apologies. I am not. :)

]:)

by m_a_r_k

[i]"So no matter how much you make as soon as you reach the point where you have used it all up and gone into debt you are underpaid."[/i]

Totally untrue. You're spending habits have no correlation to you being paid equitably. What you are saying is that if you have exorbitant spending habits, then you deserve to get paid more? I wish it was that easy! You should say something more like "So no matter how much you make, as soon as you reach the point where you have used it all up and gone into debt, [u]you are then in debt because of your unwise spending habits but your salary is as fair as it was before you went into debt[u]".

by tony hopkinson

No gratitude whatsoever !.
There are lots of people worse off, should be grateful for the good natured philanthropists that we are, hand out our hard earned cash in a charitable enterprise, starving our own children, mimising the benefits of cherished investors , losing money hand over fist to provide undeserving ingrates with a bit of self respect.
Personally I think we should be able to employ their kids again,have first dibs on their wives and re-introduce indentures for the uppity little p***ks.

If I was you, I'd be very wary of any of your employees with a gun fetish.

by too old for it

The problem with many large companies is that instead of IT driving business, or business driving business, is that SARBOX compliance (or some other firm's SARBOX compliance) is driving business.

IT just happens to be the convenient whipping-boy for businessmen and women who can't break out of that model.

by jamesrl

IT must support the general business objectives.

There are two "functions" within IT, one is to support the business by providing an Infrastructure at a reasonable cost (mail, data storage.network) and the other, more project oriented function is to support the larger business objectives.

Those larger business objectives usually boil down to "Increase revenue, increase profit, improve productivity".

SARBOX is a distraction from that. It is a cost of doing business. But if all you do is SARBOX while your competitors are doing SARBOX, and improving profitability, and this trend continues, you wil be out of a job because your company will go out of business.

But SARBOX aside, there are business, the Type Cs where they have already "picked" all the "Low hanging fruit". You can't always have a situation where you can justify continuing new investments in IT. Sometimes you have gotten all te big productivity gains you can, and you go into maintenance mode.

James

by too old for it

I'm still hoping that the US has some visionaries who Boldly Go Where No Man Has Gone Before (whether it be IT or the next big thing) and can lift the knowledge workers remaining in this country up with them.

Not sure what types these would be ...

I'm not convinced that IT in no more than a support role has a future. After all, when you do the same thing you've always done (cut IT budget, make do, etc.) you get the same thing you've always gotten (malaise).

No less of an authority than Peter Coffee said at http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1010762,00.asp

"That's why a halfhearted IT budget isn't a cost-cutting gambit; it's a postdated suicide note. You've already decided to let yourself die, it's just a matter of time before you flatline."

by too old for it

... for these types of parents: Helicopter Parents or "Black Hawks".

They hover around their kids all through high school and college, making sure everyone knows little Johnny deserves to be at the top of the class.

Then they carry on into the business world ... Everyone else met the goal of the year except Little Johnny, but, but, but, how dare you give little Johnny a bad review?

They even have their own organization: http://www.collegeparents.org/cpa/index.html

by johnesther

I have been in IT/IS since 1965, I took early retirement, but am now in it as a CS Mgr and ended up specializing in developing CS/HD depts and agents.
Salary has fluctuated for me, going from Sr. Mgt wages on down. I don't think at this point it is an age thing, expierience does count now, even over degrees. But what is the issue is the volitility of the job market. When I took early retirement I had worked for the company over 30yrs. Since then the companies I have worked for have been hot to use the expierence and pay the salary, but also to reorg and RIF you out, then repopulate. But, the ideas remain and are utilized to make the company better.
So, I do agree you are probably underpaid, but if the company is stable and there are no caps then the salary will go up.

by m_a_r_k

If you forget to enter a title to a post, you can't go back and edit it to add a title. Damn... sometimes I think about TR's use of 18th century technology and I just shake my head.

by jdclyde

Face it. When your first starting out in ANY field that requires skill, you are more expensive to have on the payroll than you are worth for a while.

Also, when your first starting out, you are more desparate to get that job than a seasoned pro so you will take the job at a lower pay and like it. (until later when you start looking over the fence and it starts looking greener.)

Want a good reality check on the VALUE of your abilities? Go interview for a new job and see how much they feel you are worth. I think you will find that unless you also have certs/degree, three years is a pup.

Don't ruin a place you might like otherwise just because you THINK you are underpaid.

You didn't state the range you are paid and I don't know how demanding your work load is so it is impossible for us on the outside to make a real judgement on this for you.

salary vs hourly. Depends on the hours you work. Salary people work 45 to 55 hours average, so it LOOKS like more up front. My current job I turned down originally because the pay wasn't enough for me to leave my previous employer that was 55 minutes shorter drive each way. I even figured my travel time in because it was a PART of taking that job. They called me back after a week and did a big increase.

Go out on his board and look at all the discussions from about 6 months ago about "burnout". It is MUCH more important to have a happy work environment than that you have a fat check. Many in IT HATE where they work and they make more than I do. I would not trade them my enjoying life for money.

You want the big bucks, you will have to get in a big company.

I know I am not sounding very sympathetic, but I think you need to look around a little better before you ruin your job and your attitude.

MOST people don't understand IT, and thus don't worship YOU as you think they should. Believe it or not, it is that way of every department. You will always have one department think they are more important than another and are the cause of companies failing because they forget why they have a job.

Afterall, do you appreciate the Sales guys, or do you think they get off easy and don't do much? :D Without that sales guy bringing in sales, you don't HAVE a job.

by jdclyde

some things just shouldn't be candy coated.

Another issue that affects pay in the US right now is the market. The easier it is to find a job, the higher the pay scales to draw you in.

Also, many smaller shops LOOK for the new people, because they can pay them between 25K and 35K instead of the 50K to 60K someone with years of experience.

The great myth of joining IT for "all the money" has been shattered.

by jamesrl

And yes I spend way too much time with them...

But the thing about sales, is you don't often get a second chance. Its produce or die. So if they get pushy, they might have a reason. And the more sales they make, the more money there is for your bonuses and salary increases.

I don't have any problems with sales people asking for help. What I have a problem with is sales people making promises then asking me if we can meet them.

James

by dr dij

saw interesting survey of people in 100k range, 150k range, 200k range for their family. In ALL cases, the majority of people them said they would be happy and have solved their money problems if they 'just had 50k more'. This was several years ago.

particularly in the US and currently where hyper-stimulation of the economy with low interest rates has caused people to borrow to the hilt, considering their home equity an ATM machine. And with ads for new plasma TVs, hot new cars, vacation homes, etc. the savings rate in this country has actually gone negative

by m_a_r_k

Ever read the book "The Millionaire Next Door"? It's pretty interesting. A lot of high-salary people (doctors, lawyers, company executives, etc) are living month-to-month. They have high expenses and pretty much spend all they make. They buy big houses, expensive cars, vacation homes, etc just to keep up with others in their social class. Then there are others. Family-owned business owners (mom-and-pop shops) who spend money only on what they need and an occasional luxury items. These are the savers. They have few debts. They pay in cash. Even buy new autos in cash if they can. They are often richer than the high-salary people when you subtract debts from asssets. They're like the Clampetts from "The Beverly Hillbillies". They have tons of cash, live a simple life and you'd never realize they are millionaires. The book also said that most people who fall into this category are first-generation immigrants. They come to the U.S. with the desire to work hard and be successful. Most other Americans are the ones who send the savings rate toward negative territory. The discouraging part about the book was that it made it apparent that it's hard to become a "millionaire" if you work for someone else and your only income is a monthly salary. Your means to increase wealth over time is limited by your salary. Owning your own business puts almost no limit on your income.

by jdclyde

is live at a higher level of debt.

That is why all the Delphi guys are going to be so screwed if they do the pay cuts they want to do.

Right now, you have guys making $27 an hour for UNSKILLED LABOR. (ask yourself why American Autos are outsold and outpriced by imports?)

They want to knock the wages down to $13 to $15 WHERE IT SHOULD BE FOR UNSKILLED LABOR in the first place.

The problem it, these guys are doing the same as the doc/laywers you were talking about and the banks have been more than happy to bankroll everyrhing because they know these people will pay everything the have to try to APPEAR high society like the Dow engineers and other SKILLED, EDUCATED PROFESSIONAL in the area.

They will be making $30K to $40K a year, and will lose everything they have because they are maxed out.

Who will feel sorry for them? The other union guys.

by jdclyde

I don't have problems with our sales guys, but I am in manufacturing so I dont' deal with them much.

I have a problem with sales guys from other tech firms that do as you said James. Tell me what they THINK I want to hear to get a sale, while having no understanding of the technology. I won't even talk to a sales rep that doesn't bring THE tech that will actually be doing the service that they are offering.

I hear people complain all the time because sales guys are on business trips all the time, going out with clients and playing golf. Bottom line, if they aren't getting the job done, we would all be out of a job, so sit down and shut up![b] (right OZ?) :\[/b]

Besides, when it the last time YOU were going through a book to figure out how to do something complex and people walk by saying "gee, wish I could sit around and read all day!"

by stargazerr

But we are the ones creating the stuff they sell ....

All we ask for is a bit of consideration and consultation before making unachievable promises to customers.

]:)

by jdclyde

that your not going to be holding your breath while you wait?

My gazer, what a pretty shade of blue.. (or was that blew?) :O

by m_a_r_k

Happens all the time. They sell something before even asking the development staff if it can be produced. Or promise a delivery date for a new product before asking development how long it will take to build it. It's made worse when development managers get yanked along. Executive management sees dollar signs from the big promises made by sales. Exec mgmt then puts the pressure on development mgmt to produce. The developers get the shaft. Sales guys and exec mgmt and development mgmt get the big bonuses after development works their butt off to meet the impossible schedule to get the thing designed, developed, tested and shipped. The old saying that $hit flows downhill is true.

by dr dij

cartoons about this topic, sales guys making promises but in the end things tend to get done if there is pressure to get them done.

by m_a_r_k

Post edited. Double posted. (And now strangely enough, if I try to edit this post, it always brings up my original double-post. Strange...)

I hit the submit button twice within the 9 nanosecond timeframe that it took my HTML command to make the 2000 mile round trip between me and the west coast. With my quick reaction time, I should have been a gun fighter in the old West.

by m_a_r_k

A lot of the stuff I do at my job would actually be fun if I could take the time to enjoy it instead of rushing through it. Amazingly, the stuff I've developed has usually has ended up working to spec when all is said and done. Though quite often schedules get bumped out when reality sets in and the higher ups realize that the impossible is not always possible.

by fernbowers

You can move the to washington dc area/Maryland
and make mega bucks. You could get six figure
income. My company is hiring ATT Government Solutions. I could refer you if you are willing to relocate. You are in the wrong area.

By the way, there are some companies that will sponsor you. CSC, Lockheed Martin etc...

There is always hope if you have the tickets.
contact me at fernbowers@comcast.net.
Send me your resume. I can send you leads....

by navy moose

I apologize for not replying sooner. My laptop died and I had to get this new one configured.

If my current contract does not get renewed I might consider going to DC. I have family down there, and I hear horror stories about traffic and cost of living.

by tony hopkinson

Good employees will be worth their salary, but do they need a good employee, perhaps a cheaper one will do.

They might get lucky and get a good cheap one. The cost of delaying a project is easily offset by saving of a cheaper manning requirement. Just business, don't take it personal just cos you worked your ass off for years and your kids are going hungry and wearing hand me downs. Shareholder value has increased. Success in anybody's language that.

You don't give a stuff about their sucess now they've downsized you? Well that's hardly the attitude is it. No wonder you lost your job, no loyalty !

Hold on, tongue was wedged in my cheek, upper left I hasten to add.

Speaking of handme downs, I do have this tee-shirt in a medium if anybody needs one. I paid for it in installments over a 19 year period.

by stargazerr

But come 5 o' clock each day, I do get Red ...X-(

;\

~Mental Note: Think over the possiblity of taking up painting, what with all these colors~

by nemesis"t"warlock

Dr Dij hits the nail on the head. The attitude to IT is that its a commodity. You are therefore in some way percieved as supporting the plumbing of the company. It's important and the company would struggle if everything went down, but in the same was as if there was a power cut.

If the company is growing then that's great but other than doing your job supporting IT and putting in new PCs and the occasional server what have you done to help drive that growth?

Unless something you do shows tangible returns on the bottom line either in actual revenue or decreased overheads then you are proving the commodity service. In my past life I built the entire company IT from scratch with virtually no budget. I created electronic systems for procurement, facilities, warehousing and plenty more. This helped the company automate processes but minimised spending. However it was intangible and therefore never got seen as strategic. The role was never going to change so I moved on.

Sounds like you are in a similar situation. However valuable you think you are it doesn't matter unless you can prove it tho them. Important does not mean that if you leave the lights will go out. They can get another support person. Important comes in different forms and so far you haven't shown that to anyone here.

Move on - learn new things and experience different environments. If you really were that important then perhaps they'll try to tempt you back. Don't bet on it though.

by it cowgirl

I started in IT late in life and get paid less than most whippersnappers who have less experience and knowledge. Probably because I am female...

by jodym1

I can agree with you as I am female and have found some discrimination in the IT field because of it.

However I also think my location has a lot to do with the pay scale too. Salary surveys do not reflect the area I am in and show that I am very much underpaid. However if you look at the average wages for this town I am not underpaid at all.

I believe its a matter of perception. What it comes down to is if you want more money either ask for it or look for a new job.

by jodym1

The company I used to work for was bought out by another company who moved everything to terminal services. They kept me around to switch out hardware and deliver mail for a while after that.

Horrible experience.

by rizwandean

I know how you feel. Welcome to the club. No matter how hard you try to negotiate your salary and even if you're someone who has an MCSE but are aged around 20-25, forget you'll even be able to come close to what your senior (who probably only has a workshop attendance certificate of participation) is making. Its the age factor that pushes you back. Old Managers don't really think that younger people have needs and wants.

by grimshiire

Bottom line: We are all under paid. Make due with what you have, continue growing your experience & move on. Don't waste time or energy with What IF's! The people that do the hiring are the ones that don't know smeg.

ALL OF YOUR BASES BELONG TO HR!

by jamesrl

I am convinced that IT can and does make a difference in many businesses. Those businesses need innovators and require significant investors.

But there are businesses that don't require the latest and greatest. If you keep pushing for big IT investments when the business doesn't need it, don't be suprised if you find yourself outsourced. In most companies IT is not the main focus of the business.

James

by miltuckydave

You are worth simply what your employer thinks you are worth. If it isn't what you think you are worth, then look elsewhere. 3 years in IT doesn't mean a thing if you aren't the best at what you do, or if you work for a company that doesn't believe you are the best at what you do. Its simple capitalism.

While I am a strict capitalist at heart, I do feel most IT people are underpaid b/c people just accept a low salary and some contractors bid at bottom of the barrel prices just to get the contract. I am never amazed more than when I am approached by a recruiter to take a 3-6 month contract at "30-35/hour!" What? My lawnmower repair man charges 70/hour, my plumber charges 90/hour, hell the garbage truck driver makes $60k per year. As a whole IT people need to get a little head for business when they are looking for work and not just accept that low pay for long. I've been in the field for 10 years and am in a senior level position so to me its insulting.

Low pay is for very entry level posititions, which if you don't read continually and work your ass off, you will stay.

by fernbowers

Right now you should be focused on education
and experiances. As you move from job to job,
you can negotiate your salary. However, you
need to have all the tickets.

by rkendsley

They want to pay you as little as possible for the job you do. If you are a loyal and responsible person you probably put in as many hours and work as hard as possible, but for no reward. If they will not reward you for a job well done, then maybe you/we need to change our attitude to be like the company, with a twist. Do as little work as possible for the money they will pay. This is against my nature, but I'm close to that point.

NOTE: STOP HERE UNLESS YOU WANT TO READ MY RANT

I have been working for the same place, a school district, for the last 17 years and have not received ONE merit pay increase (retirement benifits are great though). Oh, they call it a pay increase when in reality it is COLA (Cost Of Living Adjustment). So I'm not really gaining anything.

I'm putting in 9 - 10 hours days 5 days a week regularly and also 50-60 hour weeks, working weekends, when needed (Which has become more the norm than not since they refuse to hire more staff! {One tech person / 600 computers!}).

I get paid less than my peers in the private sector, a LOT less (10K to 20K less).

I asked for a job description change, we are changing focus on one of primary applications and I would be the DBA, rather than a programmer. No dice, they don't change job descriptions for management positions (I call BS, they have done it in the past, if they want to)!

So, I am left to:

A) Find another job at a higher rate (Capitalism at it's best)

B) Suck it up and continue on as the norm (Fat chance of a change)

C) Start toward my original point, try to do as little as possible for the money I'm paid (I was even told by my former boss to do this!! One method to show we need more staff).

So I'm trying A, B is my third position (two kids in college, can't quit yet) and C is my second position.

I hope A happens (interviewing next week), especially now, since there are only two of us in this district who have the expertise to do the job I do and the other one just accepted a position in another part of the state (Will be leaving in 2 to 3 weeks).

That would be a good payback to the district for all the under appreciated years of dedication and hard work. Karma at it's best.

So much for my rant.

by ibanezoo

I work with someone who thinks like that. I can't speak about you because I don't know you, but this kid thinks he knows it all but his lack of experience is quite apparant and makes more work for the rest of us. His claim is that he is only going to do the work he is paid for (which is usually half-assed) implying that if he were paid more he would work more and his work would be of a higher quality. Of course, mommy handed him everything on a silver plate so he has no real sense of responsibility or any work ethic to speak of.

by danielpfrommer

I currently work for a large (3500 PC's) company providing desktop support with large amounts of outside scope responsibilities. I recently graduated with my BS and also hold several vendor certs (cisco, microcrap...). I was just offered a security admin posistion at a lower than national average salary. I also live in a very high cost of living area and I am only 23 years old.

It was explained to me by management that because of my expierience is why I was not offered a higher salary, I gladly accepted the offer. Now my mission is to get highly certified and decorated to the hilt so when that expierience factor catches up with me I can finally negotiate with confidence.

Face it dude, we are all uderpaid. But isnt everybody?

Keep striving and get as much formal and technical training as possible. Good luck.

by technology coordinator

In today's changing world and fluctuating economies, you have to prove your value to the employer if you plan to negotiate a higher wage. I'm 30 with MS Certs and Tech. schooling plus University schooling and feel underpaid wah wah wah (especially since I'm in the manufacturing industry where guys who don't shower for 3 days, wear the same clothes for 3 days, have persistent chew grains running down between their teeth and play cell phone games at their workstations make more than I do)- one thing I've learned is that I must keep my boss(es) informed of my responsibilities, problem resolutions, struggles, ideas, accomplishments, and performance: IE: status of and copletion of projects on a daily/weekly basis. That way they know what you are doing.

Comparing you salary to that of a salary comparison web site based on surveys carry's no weight in wage negotiations. The employer can easily shoot holes through that information based on what they require for the position you hold.

Through keeping my bosses informed, I've been promoted and my pay has increased by $4/hour in the last 18 months alone.

You have to go out and get it if you want it! (right old schoolers?!)

by btljooz

And with the economy/job scene the way it is what's the chances of finding a better job???

The best way, if one MUST find another job, is to have that job BAGGED BEFORE you leave the original greedy one.

A friend of mine used yet another tactic:

They 'bagged' a BETTER paying job and then went to his superiors and said, "Hey 'This Company' IS going to pay me $this amount. If you don't want to lose me...meet it or beat it!!!" They met it.
NOTE: This can only be used ONCE!!!!

by madasilva

Im feeling rather underpaid as well- from my own doing. Im 25 and this is my first IT job after graduating. I feel its critical to get good experience in IT so when asked for my expected salary during an interview for a network admin position- I stated a rather low number to help clinch the deal and get me in. Low enough that i believe i caused my interviewers to give each other a look. I was told I got the job later that day.
I've been in this company for a year and a half and while I've gain enourmous amounts of experience (one man army supporting ~100+ systems doing backups, network infrastructure, lan support, web/dns servers, etc..) the tiny salary is starting to hurt.

Im torn between staying for the experience or looking for a better payn position. Anyone know what I should expect for a Network Admin with 2 years experience in Canada?

Any advice?

by gpastorelli

I did exactly what you did. My first network admin position (after working in tech support for 2 years at $6.50 an hour ending at a whooping $9.00 an hour), I took a very low salary just to get the job and I am now regretting the move as I am having my first child in a month. They've never had an IT person before and now the responsibility is ever increasing. I love the job and the experience I get but like you, the salary is beginning to hurt.

by madasilva

The way i see it, if your the only IT support in a company you have
some leverage. Also as a net admin they have invested a certain
level trust so they wont be eagar to be shopping around for a
replacement if your already doing a good job. Work hard and they
should give you a fair salary when you ask- at least thats what im
hoping for.

by jseichko

It doesnt sound like the company you work for has ever had to pay an IT consulting firm to perform your job. Also you are there to attend to their every IT need. Can they ever imagine having to make a call to have someone come out if there were a problem? If they did they would realize the value of properly compensating IT talent. Thats right TALENT, most of us may not ever be on American Idol but we definatley have talent.

by ericl_w199

hey the company i was working for fired me for looking for another job.in the end they did me a favor and i was able to find a new job within a month and got a 60% pay raise.I took the previous job right out of college for the experience and not the craptacular pay.i worked their 2.5 years and now i accually do less work and get paid more.cant beat that.

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