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What gun possession implies

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With gun weapons, one can protect or kill. Not too soon after Colorado shooting, Americans are tolling themselves again with the Connecticut shootout.

The U.S. is a country respecting freedom. While the police and soldiers have guns, so do the general public. With freedom in American minds, privacy is also secured by Law, hence one can kill an intruder to one's premises. The reasons behind this practice are: Americans are above-par wealthy and they need some extra security against crime (also reflected in their possession of most nuclear missiles in the world); Americans are relatively selfish and self-protecting (people are putting security of oneself above public safety by advocating gun possession, plus developing nuclear weaponry whilst disallowing poorer countries to follow suit); Americans think they are so morally superior that most people can restrain themselves from gun abuse.

In fact, if some would like to prevent crime with guns, they should first think about how easily guns can cause crime. For the first time in history, after many gun-related crimes, people from the rest of the world should become hesitating when considering emigration or traveling to the U.S. and other gun-approving countries. As Chinese ourselves, we applaud for our own better-off personal safety without undiscriminated gun possession. When guns are publicized for eliminating their inner lack of security, Americans are haunted with even greater homicidal fears.

191 replies

by slayer_

Without trying to sound pro or anti gun. Canadians have a lot of guns at home, from pistols to rifles. My family had 8 guns including old military guns. When I was young my father showed me how to shoot guns. What is really different between us as the USA? I do know our guns have to be locked in a secure storage container, I do not know US laws on gun storage.

Can it be pure population density? Does the fact that the US has more people clustered together mean that statistically the likelihood of a school shooting is greater? But isn't China and Japan even more densely populated? So what are their school shooting statistics?

It can't be just that Americans think they have a right to guns is it? How is having the right to have guns different than being allowed to have guns?

My theory... The typical urban environments lend themselves to less gun safety talks with children. This theory could be tested by checking the gun violence rates in less urbanized states.

by Member 25348569

No point in tinkering with "urban" and "rural". The US has 3.2 firearms homicides per 100,000 population compared with 0.1 for England and Wales, according to a 2012 report by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime. Total homicides for the USA are 4.3 per 100,000 with 1.2 per 100,000 for the UK.

We just don't have guns.

Japan has 0.3 homicides per 100,000 population of which a handful were gun crime. They don't have much murder or guns.

However, with less than 5% of the world's population, the United States is home to roughly 40 per cent of the world's civilian-owned guns so it's just not possible to get any meaningful comparison.

by maxwell edison

But I will say this (ask this). You stated that in the US, [i]"..... there are 3.2 firearm homicides per 100,000...."[/i]

Those danged statistics. A smart guy can make them say just about anything.

Remove a few isolated spots from the USA, and what are the numbers? Take out of the equation New York City (with the Democrat mayor in sheep's clothing, Michael Bloomberg - Mr. Gun Control in a city where such firearms are already illegal); or Detroit, a city with another Democrat mayor, Democrats on the city council, where social programs and unemployment are norm; or Chicago, the murder capitol of the world, the home of out Democrat president, Barack Hussein Obama, and all his Democrat Chicago cronies; and, of course, let's not even mention race in the homicide statistics.

Or I wonder how many homicide perps are receiving Food Stamps? Or I wonder how many homicide perps are gang bangers battling over turf? Or I wonder how many homicide perps are ........

Your statistics are meaningless, Neil.

by maxwell edison

I have my theories on the cause(s) of not only these mass killings, but other forms of violence and social breakdown, and none of them has anything at all to do with the existence of, or the availability of guns.

But it's obvious that the anti-gun lobby and the anti-gun sentiment in the USA will actually PREVENT any effort to address the REAL root cause(s). It's easy to blame guns for jumping up and killing people; that way, people don't have to acknowledge the REAL issues.

I'd bet everything I own (which isn't a hell of a lot at this point) that in not a single one of these "mass killing" cases, or in cases of kids killing kids, the perpetrator had a father who was involved and engaged in his life; or the perpetrator came from a family that provided unconditional love and acceptance; or that the perpetrator was actually GIVEN a gun by his father and taught how to use and respect it; or .........

But yeah, let's blame the guns. It's too painful to look at the REAL reasons.

by purpleskys

guns are just the tool...guns don`t kill people, people kill people. Whether it be with a gun, a knife, whatever the tool may be, that is the fact. Unfortunately, guns are a tool for a faster mass violence. And it doesn`t seem to matter what the demographic is either. I hear too many stories where someone took their parents` gun out of an unlocked closet and either accidentally or intentionally shot someone or mulitple people. As Slayer_ said, we`re under pretty tough laws to keep our guns locked up here in Canada. I was raised to understand that a gun was for nothing more than hunting or in drastic measures to protect ones home and family.

Is it any wonder today`s society doesn`t know right from wrong...we`ve been told we`re not allowed to disipline our children anymore in fear we may hurt their self esteem. I tell ya, my uncle didn`t hurt my self esteem, but he wacked my butt when I didn`t do what I was told; my self esteem is fine and I sure as heck appreciate, love, and respect that man with all my heart. If I didn`t get my own way or a toy that I wanted, I darned well learned to live with (and love) what I did have. So today`s kids need to suck it up, we all don`t get what we want but if you don`t like what you have, I`m sure it can be given to some poor kid somewhere that will adore it. And if you don`t do what you`re told, there`s an app for that, it`s called grounded...no TV, no cell phone, no computer, no gaming system....read a book, better yet (and I`m not a religious girl at all but I do believe in morals) read the Bible; it`s full of lessons and morals that we all should re-learn to live by.

And that`s my two cents for now.

by chdchan

Are you saying those 20 kids should anyways be murdered otherwise by weapons other than guns or even simply traffic accidents? Your "guns are just the tool" concept means doctors can equally heal so many people without medicine.

by dogknees

Max, tell us what you do think the real causes are.

It's easy to say it's not A and it's not B and ..... How about some positive contribution.

by delbertpgh

Apart from the fact that your hunch that a father-led family of "unconditional love and acceptance" never produces mass killers sounds like pure wishful thinking, what would that lead you to do? Institute nationwide fatherhood classes, and make divorce harder to get? Can you justify that degree of government intrusion? Think it would work?

There are, by the way, countries (Scandinavia) where fathers are even less of a household feature than in America, and they don't have our murder rate, and feature fewer mass killings. America has always been a more violent place, it seems. There's something in our makeup that leads us to own more guns, to resort to killing as a way of ending an argument, and in the last 50 years, to mass killings to resolve difficult personality problems. Murder is as American as gun ownership, and if you got rid of all the guns, we'd keep on killing each other. Call it cowboy culture. Countries with few guns and few killings can't credit their low murder rate to gun restriction. They just don't breed as many killers. I think their people are just more passive, more indifferent, about governmental gun restrictions. I don't see cause and effect; I just see two effects.

Even if you were to try to clamp down, in a country where 300 million guns are present, where so many people want to own guns, and where personal identity is for many people tied inseparably to having a gun collection, there is zero chance you'd ever be able to abolish or even control them. It's politically and logistically impossible.

by chdchan

Out of the vast population of North America, the gun-protected population is still far greater than gun-killed population, this makes the very sense....that a minor part of people should die for the majority.

by purpleskys

because i would not like to believe you mean it the way that i read it....no one should die for the ``majority``

by chdchan

Don't you mean you still want millions of guns around if your wife, kids or parents get guns pointed at their heads? What mandates your thought that they are expendable.

by Member 25348569

You have this habit of posting questions - "I wonder how many homicide perps are receiving Food Stamps". You answer it, you asked it.

I posted a single flat statistic which suggests that there is, per capita, thirty times more homicide by guns in the US when compared to the UK where the posession of a handgun is illegal.. If you want to post "therefore what?", feel free but to do it in the way that you do here is just lazy. Remove a few isolated spots from the UK statistics and we can all get different numbers.

by j-mart

and have enshrined the right to be better armed than is sensible or necessary in your Constitution.

I live in a peaceful society, in a backwater of a country, I can have access to hunting rifles and shot guns only, which as hunting and fishing are readily accessible and not very expensive pastimes, is as it should be. Handguns assault rifles machine guns and other automatic weapons are only useful for murdering, maiming and killing the innocent. I know that at the Wharehouse ( similar to your Walmart ) boxing day sale, an irate bargain hunter is not going to whip out a pistol and start shooting to grab a bargain that another customer is also trying to grab. The Police, who are not normally armed are not likely to get involved in a shootout as the bad guys can't easily get firearms. If I desire a firearm for hunting as well as being vetted by the Police, I am required to attend a firearm safe use course, pass this course and also provide proof that I have strong safe lockable cabinet to store these firearms in.

This makes it harder for nutters and criminals to get their hands on weapons, and extremely hard if not near on impossible for them to get full automatic weapons and assault rifles.

At the time your 2nd Amendment was added, your country was a wilder and less civilized place, as was the rest of the world. Are you sure that the reasons for the 2nd Amendment still apply ? Which is a more important freedom, Bearing any arms by any sane or insane, law abiding, or not law abiding person may so desire or restricting weapons in your society to types of firearms are made only for hunting not urban warfare eg. pistols assault rifles, and automatic weapons, or the freedom for your children to go to school a much lessened risk that some nut case with a chip on their shoulder will go on a mass killing spree. How many dead children is wide open gun controls worth ?

As I said its your country, your choice, but I feel much safer and as a result much freer in my backwater of a country with the right sort of guns available and none of the type only useful for evil things

by robo_dev

When it was enacted, there was a real power struggle going on between Federal and State government, and the guns (kept in an Armory) were something that the States believed to be critical in case their was some arbitrary Federal action, or some other event, like a war breaking out.

Therefore the 'right to maintain a well armed Militia' was something that was very important, especially to those who had just fought a war for independence from England. Those people had first hand knowledge of what government tyranny looked like, so the state militias were their counter to that.

Keep in mind that firearms in 1791 were as far from modern weaponry as they could get, and these were stored in the armory; pistols were very uncommon, and realistically with one bag of lead shot and another bag of black powder, exactly how many rounds-per-second could a muzzle-loading flintlock rifle fire?

The purpose of the second ammendment has nothing to do with private gun ownership, never has, never will.

by john.a.wills

I do not know the reasons for the 2nd amendment. I do know the reasons Maxwell and the NRA give nowadays, of course, but I doubt that those are the ones the framers of the Bill of Rights had in mind. Can someone come up with a relevant quotation from the Congressional debates which led to the Bill of Rights being proposed to the states for ratification?

by maxwell edison

And he knows my reason for the 2nd Amendment.

Please enlighten me. I don't recall specifically discussing it, but that doesn't mean I haven't.

by chdchan

When gun-possessing society is more aware of weapon danger, people tend to buy more guns to protect themselves. Despite this undeterrable cause and result, if firearm is banned and gun purchasing power all goes to charity or other positive spending, would it be much better? Some people just do not have enough to eat.

by purpleskys

and no i don't...no one is expendible...but for some reason, you think they are. I believe we have a language barrier between us as you don't get my meaning whatsoever. It's pretty simple, guns are for hunting and in extreme cases, protecting your home and family, but you will not find guns in my home, end of discussion on that topic, my husband lost that arguement. I live in a society where the chance of your scenario happening to me is slim to none, not impossible, just impropable.

by darryl~

removing the guns from our home....the main reason they are gone is because I believed (like you) that they were not safe around our children.

by maxwell edison

I've been making [i]positive contributions[/i] in these threads for more than ten years. Either you haven't been paying attention, or you consider alternative opinions to your own something other than positive.

I've hinted (more than hinted) when I said, [i]"I'd bet everything I own (which isn't a hell of a lot at this point) that in not a single one of these "mass killing" cases, or in cases of kids killing kids, the perpetrator had a father who was involved and engaged in his life; or the perpetrator came from a family that provided unconditional love and acceptance; or that the perpetrator was actually GIVEN a gun by his father and taught how to use and respect it; or ......... But yeah, let's blame the guns. It's too painful to look at the REAL reasons. [/i]

(See, you weren't paying attention.)

by dogknees

So tell us how we deal with what we have now. The kid has already grown up with problems. What do we do now?

by ansugisalas

Right?
I don't see another way to handle the dearth of fathering. Can't force bums not to be bums.

by highlander718

it is true that in China one is safer than in the US when it comes to gun violence. But funny you don't mention workplace safety for example ? Or extreme poverty which brings health risks ?

by slayer_

A quote from that article
[b][i]He said there were no deaths among the nine students admitted, although two badly injured children had been transferred to better-equipped hospitals outside the county. [/i][/b]

by chdchan

If there is portable life-terminating laser invented some day, should it be carried all around the streets like knives by our citizens? c.f. ancient people never thought of guns as weapons like we think of life-terminating laser today.

by charliespencer

But I was struck by the incongruity that in the US, we're allowed to freely discuss our Constitution and leaders on the Internet without fear of imprisonment (or worse). I at least know that if I get shot, it will most likely not be by my own government.

by chdchan

or strong social powers, you've got to be miserable, any countries being the same. Is it too difficult to quote an example of political jeopardy or murder in the U.S.?

by ansugisalas

they can, after all, detain you indefinitely :^0
Nice job of that committee to drop the Senate bill to stop it, huh?

by highlander718

they represent quite a chunk of American population and are part of America. I myself am not decided pro or anti-gun but this type of argument does not help the debate.

by robo_dev

Obviously guns need a crazy person to pull the trigger to do their damage....so either we need fewer crazy people, fewer guns, or better ways to prevent the two elements from reacting.

Part of this debate is around how we treat (or do not treat) mental illness, perhaps even a discussion about violent video games, but most importantly, how to have a grown up discussion about how lethal weapons are bought, sold, used, and abused.

by purpleskys

neither do I...i prefer no guns. I've stated before, there are no guns in my home, nor will there ever be. I was trying to say that if a person feels the need to have to protect their home and family, they don't need multiple guns or semi automatic weapons...one should suffice in necessity.

by highlander718

I got that, just to make sure of the nuances :-). And on top, I don't live in the U.S. so easy for me to say I guess....

by purpleskys

I'm Canadian and pretty close to the border...but i still don't get it... :| I often try to guess too...but it eludes me

by darryl~

is always putting words in your mouth, you sure like to put words in other's mouths....maybe you should re-read what she said....or is that just what you "think" she said?

by purpleskys

in Colchester....and as much as there's gun violence in the city, here in Truro it's rare....so yes, you're so right

by darryl~

even though Halifax is a very small city, it still had 75 shooting incidents last year. If more people in Halifax carried concealed weapons I suspect that number would be higher.

by chdchan

Why? Because they fear one day those countries will become BANDIT attackers. Every country is saying nuclear weapons are for self-protection; however, Americans want to eliminate that possibility of getting out of control. So why guns are not banned similarly to nullify the possibility of abuse? Is this Americans' "egotistic-privilege-ism"?

by maxwell edison

..... (or think you know about the USA), you learned where and how?

Have you ever lived or visited the USA?

Tell us, how have you become so enlightened and knowledgeable about a people a half a world away from you?

by jp85257

You don't "need" a car that goes faster than 55.
You don't "need" a house in a certain neighborhood.
You don't "need" expensive jewelry.
You don't "need" a computer.
etc., etc.

Just because YOU don't "need" something doesn't mean it should be banned for others.

by Member 25348569

particularly given the woefully low limits on your roads, seem to smack your argument down rather hard. You are already controlled within an inch of your life in "The Land of the Free". You limit driving for everyone. Even Sebastian Vettel would have to crawl along your roads.

by jp85257

You're saying that you "need" a car that goes faster than 55? Or are you saying that you prefer to drive faster and want a car that can perform to your expectations? My argument about "needs" and "wants" still holds but nice try.

by chdchan

That gun possession is adovcated at the expense of gun crimes. And the TOLLs are justified by the majority of Americans. If you compare gun-killed statistics with knife-killed ones, you can visualize that over-worrying of gun crimes is unnecessary. So let's look forward to next bloodshed(s).

by ansugisalas

and suggest that there are two major causes.
One is crime. The US has a lot of it, and lots of crime means lots of criminal enforcing their own kind of justice on each other.
The other is unhealthy attitudes.
The Swiss have a lot of (army) weapons in their homes, but they don't really have a desire to own weapons.
To many in the US, firearms seem to be a symbol of "fuckyeahfreedom". That's not something that engenders a sober attitude towards them.
So, there, "expert" statement, sure to make Maxwell apoplectic.

by j-mart

with feeling the need for owning a large number of weapons of mass mayhem, military style, high rate of fire people slaughtering totally unnecessary hardware, could be down to having no real Balls, small di*ks and foolishly thinking a big powerful gun is a way of compensating for this.

by Member 25348569

Your collective "need" for a gun has contributed to the deaths of one million Americans since the assassination - by gun - of Martin Luther King.

Because of legislation , the safety of cars is improving all the time, seat belts, tighter restrictions on drunk driving, even stupidly low speed limits.

Yet guns remain unchecked by proper legislation. Guns proliferate, mental health issues go unchecked, fear escalates.

By 2015, more people will die by guns than on your roads. I wish you joy of the future of your country.

by Member 25348569

The rise in gun purchases following the recent school massacre have been attributed to two causes.

Firstly there have been a number of people who have bought into the environment of fear that seems to pervade much more of the US population than I, for one, had appreciated. Fear - I/my wife needs a gun to protect my children/property/belongings, etc. There is a lot of that attitude, Even on the threads here despite the fact that burglaries are of about the same per capita rate as the UK although, (you'll be happy to know) more than Finland.

Secondly, there are a significant number of gun nuts who have gone out and purchased a whole load of automatic weapons just in case the government does have the nuts to do something.

Lots of people own guns or don't own guns but would restrict legislation simply because of the Second Amendment, which I truly do not understand. But I'm also lacking real understanding in the whole US Constitution with its rhetoric of liberty thing anyway and I just tend to lump it in with the other ancient Holy Books that I can't understand people's facination with.

But, when it's all added up, more Americans DON'T own guns than own them. It's just got to the situation that those who do own guns now own more guns and more sophisticated and powerful guns.

Interestingly, all ten of the states with the highest gun ownership rates, 50% or more, are considered staunchly Republican states. I'd rather not speculate on the racial profiling of gun owners lest I hit a nerve. Or speculate whether it's a Christian thing...

p.s. The Swiss are WEIRD! Any country that has laws that forbids the flushing of a toilet after 10pm (and legislates that men pee sitting down after 10pm) and forbids the washing of a car on Sunday cannot be used to prove ANYTHING. Invoking "the Swiss do/have" is beyond Godwin's Law.

by jp85257

you should do more research regarding the laws already in place regarding gun control. I think you'll find sufficient laws are in place.

But you don't see any criticism about lack of enforcement. Do you really think that those who already break the law are going to be affected by a bunch of new laws if they decide they "want" another item added to their collection?

by Member 25348569

You quite obviously did not have sufficient curbs on the ownership of guns else you would not be in the position of having a murder rate by firearms and a suicide rate by firearms that are both multiples of any other western country. I really don't see the point in researching the minutiae of differences in gun laws between the states when the elephant in the room - one million killed by guns in the last twenty-five years - is ingored.

And, anyway, I don't reckon there is any point in anyone trying to pass any legislation now. You have more legal guns in circulation in your country than anywhere else in world. As a consequence of this, because guns are easier to steal than flat-screen TVs, you have more illegal guns. You, as a country, are painted into the most appalling corner imaginable. You live in fear of armed criminals, so you arm yourselves. You live in fear that your government will disarm you, so you arm yourself more.

Personally, I'd put severe curbs on posession of ammunition. Then you can still blow away the odd crim, but you won't have enough to toast a school of year two kids.It even gets around that silly Second Amendment. You can bear your arms, but just not fire them.

by chdchan

That might be case does happen for people living near or in a forest, when a gun couldn't be more useful. Taking into account existing and near future legislation will fail to prevent massacre shooting cases in history, but I have a futuristic idea: digital locks should be installed in all guns by which the triggers can be disabled by schools' radio frequency broadcast. Or simply a RFID tag should make gun detectable in those sensitive areas.

by darryl~

guns would not have them & there would be no way to install them on them nor could you force people to modify/destroy their older weapons (nor should they be forced to do so)....and people would find a way to disable such a device.

by Member 25348569

Why does that upset you so? Are the Chinese implicitly wrong and the straight-shootin' Merkin implicitly right? Get over yourself. Who the hell do you think you are?

Sttrange as it may seem to you, I live in a society that I consider no less free than yours -possibly more so. I get to make my own mind up.

Muppet. go and buy another gun - or maybe a monster truck.

by j-mart

Granville Sawyer is much more intelligent than all those small dic*ed gun toting fools than think freedom is determined by how much firepower one has lying about the place. Real freedom is not weapons but living in a place where people slaughtering guns are not are a requirement. Granville makes much more sense than the NRA and the 2nd amendment.

by deadly ernest

years, yet we have lots of shooting. pre gun control they were civilian grade rifles, now they're military grade weapons as they all cost the same and have the same penalty now. Also, the crimes can be sure that 99.99% of the city population have nothing to shoot back with.

by Member 25348569

I'd be interested in an Ozzie take.

Given a situation that only criminals own guns - and they surely do in my country, too - Is the fact that Joe Public doesn't have a gun more or less likely to get him or her shot? That's shot. Not robbed or anything else.

The perception in the US is that they need to be armed because the criminals have guns. They may be right because there are just so many, many guns and there is, now, an environment where arming ones self is habitual. The people whose comments that I've been reading on the Net seem so fearful.

In the UK, gun crime seems to be between rival gangs, turf wars, etc. It causes national outrage if, as had happened, an innnocent bystander gets shot. I don't believe there is much robbery using guns. Bruglars don't appear to working armed. The majority target empty houses, I would guess because the penalties for any form of aggressive burglary are so much greater and the chances of being caught are greater if you have beeen seen.

What's the situation in Oz? We've never really had many guns, just a few hobbyists. Oz has had guns and then got rid of them.

by deadly ernest

It used to be legal for a civilian to own a civilian grade longarm - in most states that came out as: a rifle or shotgun with an action of single shot, bolt action, lever action, semi-automatic (one trigger pull one round fired), was not over .50 calibre if rifled, had a total length of 600 mm (2 feet) or more, a barrel of 450 mm (18 inches) or more, and had a butt stock (pistol grip only not allowed). All military grade weapon and full auto weapons were not lawful, except in very specialised cases. Hand guns required a special license and a real need - such as armed security guard or bank teller.

At that time the great majority of guns used by criminals were stolen civilian grade weapons sold on the black market. Most were cut down rifles and shotguns, a few were stolen pistols. Some were used in armed robberies, but most were used in gang wars. The laws were such that having an unlawful civilian weapon was only a fraction of the penalty for having a full military weapon; often it only resulted in a fine and confiscation unless it could be proven it was used in a more serious crime. Military grade weapons were more than ten times the cost of civilian grade weapons on the black market.

Following a major effort to disarm the civilian population after the Port Arthur shooting, the civilian grade weapons became unlawful to won except under a few very specialised situations, and even then the semi-automatics were unlawful no matter what. Rifles and shotguns were handed in to police stations, or confiscated, and destroyed. The civilian grade weapons became harder to get and the penalty for a military weapon and civilian grade weapon became the same. This has resulted in more of the military grade weapons being sold on the black market and more of them being owned and used by the criminals. Many of the older criminals have stayed with the civilian style guns they've had all along and are sued to, but the younger ones tend to go for the 'more bang for your buck' style full-auto weapons.

Luckily, the majority unlawful gun use has always been, and still is, for inter-gang warfare. The sad part is the rate of accidental shooting of bystanders has gone up a lot due to over spray of the bullets.

The police still turn up people who find rifles and the like amongst the effects of deceased older people who never handed them in. And the total number handed in is way short of the total number known to have been out amongst the public when the laws changed, but no one has any idea where they are.

One interesting factor that was recently told to me by an Army sergeant from a nearby recruit training camp is that the anecdotal evidence from the older instructors is that nearly none of the new recruits have any idea on how to safely or properly handle a gun or use one as they've not been near one before.

It would be fair to say that until the 1980s the majority of the Australian adult population knew how to safely handle and use a firearm, but now you would have to limit that to a very low percentage and then nearly all would be ex military or ex cops. In short, it's now a damn sight easier for someone to safely invade Australia without having to worry about the population taking up arms against them they have no idea how to do so. Yet, prior to the 1980s the civilian population could have put up a realistic defence by themselves.

...............

The most common weapon used by non gang associated criminals is a knife, even some of the younger or smaller gangs use knives only. Very few of the petty criminals (especially the career ones) go armed with any weapon at all as it makes a heck of a difference to the sentence if caught.

..................

personally, I believe in the right of the population to undertake proper training to obtain a licence to carry a civilian grade handgun or to keep a civilian grade longarm on their property. But the training would have to be a lot more than what you see the US citz getting. If the population had been armed as a matter of course I doubt any of the serious shooting we had would have gone so bad due to people being able to fight back. However, the real issue is not the guns but the people using them. The nutcases shooting people in a spree, and those standing behind the guns to stop the nutcases.

It all comes back to the citizens being prepared to stand up and defend themselves if they can, and far too many won't do that now because they've been too well indoctrinated by the government to be overgrown sheep. Thus arming them won't have any benefit, but arming the sheepdogs out there will.

Oh, almost forget. One down issue with the wholesale removal of rifles and shotguns from the civilian population in Australia - it's now almost impossible for the locals to keep the roos and rabbits under control as next to no-one goes out hunting them any more due to the lack of weapons and weapons skills.

by maxwell edison

Obviously, PurpleSkys has assumed the role of deciding who needs what, so if he/she says you "need" something, end of story.

How can one person (PurpleSkys and others) have the audacity to suggest what another person may or may not "need"? Who in the hell made him/her the Grand Pubah of Need?

by jp85257

Who said I was upset? I was just pointing out that your view mirrors the view of the Chinese communists who aren't exactly poster children for an individual's rights.

You seem to be the one who is upset. Take a chill pill and relax, you're starting to hyperventilate.

by Member 25348569

I was just wondering why you chose to post about them at all. You posted the link for a reason and I question your motives. Were you trying to make me ashamed that I agreed with something coming from such an egregious regime so I would change my mind? What?

What does it have to do with MY post to YOU that your society is wrong with the way it deals and has dealt with firearms.

That's all.

By the way, I'd still like you to answer about the million dead in the last twenty five years and stop with the distractions. But you have no answer so you're trying a bit of a diversion. Relax? It's not my society that has so many dead.

by Member 25348569

although I disagree with you more than I can put over in print, but I was after a simple answer as to whether there are fewer gun deaths.

As to whether there have been concomitant negative spinoffs such as you describe, I obviously can't say so I'll take what you say as given.

by deadly ernest

requires finding the relevant sections of the various state police departments' annual reports and then they don't break them up into relevant sections. In the last decade we've had a rash of suicide by police deaths where people will continue to attack the cops with a knife or the like until shot. We've also had a rise in inter-gang killings with guns. In the past where they may get a couple with civilian grade weapons, they now spray a few dozen rounds about the area and get a few more than the one or two they were after.

I'm against indiscriminate gun ownership in that I believe the owners need to be trained and licensed first. I'm also for tighter controls on handguns, and a total ban on the military grade weapons, but honest citizens should be allowed to prove they can responsibly handle firearms and own them.

by Member 25348569

You would hope that someone would put in the effort and get the numbers. It would be nice to know if the gun ban worked or was a waste of time.

by jp85257

I posted the link to show some of the types of people that agreed with your views. That's all. Trying to make you feel ashamed? Trying to make you change your mind? Not hardly.

I doubt if any Internet forum post could change your mind just as I know that your posts won't change mine.

But you post that "your society is wrong with the way it deals and has dealt with firearms" is only your opinion. Personally I think you're wrong, and since you don't even live here, should leave US politics to Americans that are ultimately affected by any decisions made.

The million that have died in the last 25 years? I give it as much thought as all of those who have died by disease, drug abuse, wars, and accidents. No more and no less.

by Member 25348569

which was why I asked - to see if you had some others.

The total body count for all of the attacks is less than the single shooting in Sandy Hook which does give some credence to the argument that the weapon that the attacker can obtain is key in the number of dead.

by deadly ernest

a different type of weapons if I want, and that's before I get onto kitchen chemistry and home made poison gases. I ask one question, how many kids would have been shot if the teacher had been armed or allowed to carry on school grounds?

I very strongly suspect that one of the reasons some people go to the schools to do their shooting is they know there will NOT be any armed opposition as no one is allowed to carry on a school property.

by Member 25348569

The point is that the number of deaths in the China episode - caused, it seems, by similar sort of mental health issues as in the US - simply didn't result in a similar number of deaths.

I have a degree in chemistry and biochemistry. Like you, I could make all sorts of stuff with or without further research. Much as the Tube Bombers did in London in 2005. But I don't do this.

The issue we are debating, here, is the crazy, the psychotic who requires immediate action. In the Sandy Hook killers case, he has no need to research, he could just take his mother's guns to commit what was, in effect, extravagant suicide. That's what ALL of these types of massacres are. Spectacular suiclde.

The Sandy Hook killer was wearing kevlar body armour. That suggests that the teacher or the putative "school guard" would have to have been alert and lucky. Again, I ask, is there nothing that can be done to reduce the chances that this won't happen again without this continual escalation.

For what it's worth, an English Primary School Headmistress was asked by an American reporter about her school's plans in the event of this sort of episode. It was like watching a conversation between a Frenchman and a German when neither understood the others language.

by Member 25348569

But the problem can be seen throughout this site and the Internet as a whole where the idea that ones defensive gun should be unloaded and stored separate from the ammunition is not even remotely acceptable to any gun-owners that I've seen posting.

by deadly ernest

and they were very soon suppressed as they showed a rise in the number of gun related deaths. However, they were raw statistics, which is all you ever see on this issue - the type of x number of deaths. Whereas what we need to see is the figure in relation to the population and other crime stats for the area.

The stats are a matter of public record, but require people to take the time to dig them out and amalgamate them, and no one down here is particularly interested as we do NOT have a big pro-gun lobby and the anti-gun lobby didn't like the answers they got last time they put in the effort.

by Member 25348569

Then, I suspect, we would have nothing else to say to each other and I would wish you joy of the future of your society. However, given the jingoistic zeal with which your country seems to want to export your idea of freedom and democracy and suppress the legal governments of others, I have every right to post that I think that you ought to get your own house in order before you push your warped ideas on the rest of us.

When your senior politicians go on record with garbage like this, "We dont need to go across the planet trying to impose American values, but we do need to go across the planet spreading human values", Newt Gingrich said. "The Second Amendment is a right for all mankind.", I have every right to say whatever I like right back at you all.

What are you going to do? Shoot me? Send a drone missile over to kill my neighbours' kids? What?

by jp85257

getting all worked up because someone doesn't agree with you.

You're entitled to your opinion no matter how wrong your are. No one should threaten you for stating your opinion. If you think I have, please supply my post so I can see where you misunderstood me.

I just find it rather sad that people like you use a tragedy like this to further your liberal agendas.

I'll continue to mourn for ALL humans who have died needlessly while you only seem to care about those that you can use for political purposes.

by deadly ernest

basic storage positions.

1. None direct use storage of any sort of weapon is unloaded and in a gun safe.

2. Direct use handguns loaded and in a holster on them or in a keypad access secured container near by. Like a car gun safe while in certain places where guns aren't allowed at all, licence or not.

3. Direct use rifles / shotguns loaded and in a gun rack above head height where children and youths can't reach them. The most traditional being above the door.

The issue of improper handlers getting a hold of weapons is usually due to them not being safely stored when not in the direct immediate vicinity of the owner.

by av .

Considering the populations in each of those states, gun crimes are actually very low percentage wise. Those statistics are from 2011 as well, when the the semi-automatic assault rifle ban was not in effect.

AV

by Member 25348569

Are we looking at the same statistics? The percentage of murder by firearms averages out at over two thirds of all murders. I don't know why jp666 posted them. It does the pro-gun cause no good at all.

The UK figure is 6% of all homicides committed by fiearm. You should be examining your conuntry's record against other western democracies.

by Member 25348569

Or, at least, those posting here and across the Net, "What use is an unloaded gun when I require defence from atheists/rapists/atheist rapists/...".

I'll leave off the more obvious choices from that list.

by Member 25348569

Americans don't understand irony. Woo! Is that ever true here.

OK, lets put this to bed. Last post to you. I should have stopped earlier but I like trying to push buttons. I'm not at all worked up.

It's rather silly of you to suggest that I have a political agenda, liberal or otherwise, as I have no vote in your country and I'm not a liberal. For what it's worth, I'm an atheist humanist, left-wing, sardonic Brit. I can fake "nice" quite well, sometimes. But I see no point in faking it here.

The senseless Sandy Hook deaths occurred in your country, not mine. Your country, not mine, has a succession of this sort of senseless killing spree. And each time it happens, nothing is done. Nothing will happen this time. And, alas, next time. And the next.

I'm posting another point of view to you to see if you can accept that the circumstances that pertain in your country, the monstrous quantity of arms available to just about anyone, are anomalous and, to put it simply, stupid.

I'm glad that you appreciate that the deaths were needless. It's a start.

What do YOU propose to do so that "suicide by cop" doesn't continue to be a national US pasttime and a national US disgrace?

I can do nothing. I'm only armed with words and you have a bullet-proof mind.