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A Pleasant Exchange with Deepsand

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deep wrote, "Far too many fail to grasp the concept of and the dangers inherent in tyrannies of the majority."

As a long term project I have taken on the enjoyable task of working through world history. I spent a year studying pre-history. Then a second year studying Greek history. In the first four months of my third year I studied Greek military history. Then I moved on to Roman history. I intend to spend two and one-half years there before I move on to Chinese history.

There is a common thread so far. People want governments that can protect them, first from external threats and then from their neighbors. Democracies have always ended in tyrannies. Republics tend to end the same way only the process takes longer.

The United States, through a combination of well educated men and happy circumstance, ended up with a form of government that slowed the accumulations of mediocrity and centralization. Unfortunately our success in WWII eliminated our natural fear of a strong central government. This, in my opinion, was the turning point in our history. Since then we have experienced a steady accumulation of all powers at the federal level until today there are no activities that I can think of that are not regulated or taxed by the federal government. We are doomed. Maybe not today. Or tomorrow. But we are doomed.

"As for 'I believe our grand experiment in self government has largely ended.' need it be so?"

No. We could turn this around in a day if we wanted to. But we do not want to. More than one half of the American people receive direct cash payments from the Federal government. And about one-half of the people pay nearly all of the taxes. Many people receive benefits well in excess to what it costs them in taxes to receive. They are the people who will vote themselves ever greater sums from the public treasuries. They are now in the majority. And we few taxpayers who pay for most of the government services are in the minority.

We will flee with our money and our businesses. It is already happening. Sarbanes-Oxley has single-handedly eliminated the creation of new public companies in the US. We have created a monster that gets no news coverage.

"Does this mean that the ideal that they strived for is now so much further from reach than then that it is no longer striving for? I, for one, think not."

The pretty words are still in place. And there are no more free places remaining on the Earth where one might go to begin anew. I am a slave for five months out of the year. I work very hard for the benefit of others whom I do not know. And yet from the perspective of the government it is never enough. Politicians, who pay attention to the voters who have their hands out, always want more from me. And are willing to forgive all taxes from those who already pay almost nothing.

"Might not this fundamental problem be addressed by way of a Constitutional Amendment setting Term Limits on, at the least, members of the House of Representatives?"

Would term limits help? I think not. We might be better off selecting all of those in every community who have answered the call to jury duty, then randomly selecting 535 of them to serve as our representatives at the federal level, never to be selectable again. And we would have to eliminate the professional bureaucracies that have accrued so much power.

We would have to eliminate the source of much of the evil, the income tax. If we could replace the income tax with a consumption tax and eliminate the property tax we would have the chance of saving our Republican form of government. I do not believe it will happen.

It is a nice change to have the opportunity to discourse with you. If we can remain civil perhaps the nation can be saved.

22 replies

by dadspad

I am very glad to see Deepsand studing so much history. That should give him ideas on what will happen in the future, seems it did. :)

Until recent times, the Republicans were for a de-centralized government and the Democrats for a centralized one. Now that both want centralized governments, I don't know what will happen.

We have a unique form of government in the world. The rest of the world has not really understood it and/or wanted to changed it since we started. It is worth saving and I hope we can do so.

I agree that WWII may have been a starting place, but WWII veterans are an independent lot and so (generally) were their children, the 'baby boomers'. Since then, I am not sure. What gives me a lot of hope is our fine military men and women doing such a fine job in the world. I am proud of them and my son who is serving.

Dad

by deepsand

Are you assumimg that I've only now begun such?

The better choice of words would be "studied."

by john.a.wills

The European Union has a 6% Value-Added Tax and insists that the member states have at least 9% extra. Is the European Union the kind of republic you want saved here?

by sn53

john wrote, "The European Union has a 6% Value-Added Tax and insists that the member states have at least 9% extra. Is the European Union the kind of republic you want saved here?

No. I do want to eliminate the income tax and think the FairTax on consumption makes sense.

The basic idea is that everyone determines the level of taxes they pay by determining the amount of consumption they do. There is no paperwork, no requirement to tell the government your financial details. No opportunity for intimidation and tyranny.

by tonythetiger

and if they're one of those big government types, they can vote that way... with [b]their[/b] wallet :)

by inkling

In my opinion, this is the single greatest thing about the Fair Tax.

Passage of the Fair Tax into law would represent the single greatest shift in power in this country since the Revolutionary War (in my opinion).

The power would be shifted from the politicians back to the people; where it belongs.

To John:

You can not equate the Fair Tax with a VAT. The fact that you do so simply shows your lack of knowledge, re. the Fair Tax.

I encourage you to read the book. Hell, PM me and I will gladly ship you my copy!

I believe we can save this great experiment that is our form of government. It's good to see people like you, sn53, fighting the good fight.

We may disagree on minor points, but as I have stated in previous posts, from what I can discern, you ARE a true patriot.

by john.a.wills

Its proponents call Value-Added Tax the fair tax. Ditto the proponents of income tax. What is this tax which you call the fair tax?

by sn53

Tony, I always enjoy your sense of humor. Many times you exactly sum up the most important points with brevity and wit.

Cool beans.

by tonythetiger

They always start out as long, drawn-out explanations, but after repeating them over and over again, it gets shorter. Pretty soon I'll just tell people they'll have to read my mind :)

by sn53

inkling wrote, "I believe we can save this great experiment that is our form of government. It's good to see people like you, sn53, fighting the good fight."

This is why I post. I like to give another point of view. I try to do so without intentional discord.

"We may disagree on minor points, but as I have stated in previous posts, from what I can discern, you ARE a true patriot."

I am merely a retired sheep dog. I can no longer fight the wolves directly. Those days are over for me. So I post here instead. :-)

by inkling

Dissemination of information and opinions IS a large part of the battle.

Contributing to a collective of individuals, with a like-minded purpose, is another way. I've posted a link to it on several different threads...if you haven't already...you might want to check out:

www.downsizedc.org

I don't agree with all of the issues they take a stand on, but I do agree with their basic premise. That basic premise is:

To work, in a non-partisan manner, to downsize the federal government.

If I were to start an organization to "fight the good fight", I can't see that I would do very much different from what they have.

I encourage anyone and everyone that will listen to me to check them out.

Cheers!

by tonythetiger

instead of penalizing success, penalizes excessive consumption (excessive being defined as anything above what one "needs", as defined by the poverty level). It encourages re-use and recycling by not taxing purchases of "used" items.

It is "fair" for several reasons, the most basic of which, in my opinion, is that items manufactured in this country will be more competitive with imports because of the elimination of embedded taxes which are a part of every item manufactured here. This has for decades given most imports a cost advantage. This will lead to more demand for our goods, which will require more people to make, etc.

by john.a.wills

Value-Added Tax? General Sales Tax? Saying it's fair does not tell me what you are talking about, only your judgement of its fairness.

by tonythetiger

www.fairtax.org

"The FairTax plan is a comprehensive proposal that replaces all federal income and payroll based taxes with an integrated approach including a progressive national retail sales tax, a prebate to ensure no American pays federal taxes on spending up to the poverty level, dollar-for-dollar federal revenue neutrality, and, through companion legislation, the repeal of the 16th Amendment."

by john.a.wills

Apart from the prebate this seems to be a general sales tax on new items only, not on services or second-hand items. The administration of the prebate is not clear to me. The states of the Union would have to distinguish between taxability under the federal system and under their own systems (e.g. CA does not tax food while SC does; some states tax service and this new tax would apparently not do so). Also, organizations, e.g. churches, which are exempt from income tax, would have to pay this new tax. It's not obviously enough fair to warrant the name.

by tonythetiger

Every family is prebated the tax on poverty level spending for that size family unit. This ensures that basic necessities are untaxed, while still letting each family decide what is a "necessity" (as opposed to exempting certain "things" from the tax).

[i]The states of the Union would have to distinguish between taxability under the federal system and under their own systems[/i]

Not difficult at all. All cash registers keep a daily total. xx% of ALL retail sales goes to the feds.

And yes, services ARE taxed.

[i]Also, organizations, e.g. churches, which are exempt from income tax, would have to pay this new tax[/i]

Ahh, but they ARE paying the tax now, in the form of the corporate and payroll taxes which get included in the cost of the product or service. Eliminate those taxes and the company charges less for the product, which is then added back on at the register. So they'll pay about the same. They also have the option that we'll all have. Buy used stuff.

Ironically, even the government pays these hidden taxes when they buy stuff. And they buy lots of stuff!

Another plus. You know all those criminals and drug dealers who don't pay taxes on their "income" but who like to buy flashy new stuff? Well, now they'll pay tax on that stuff :)

[i]It's not obviously enough fair to warrant the name.[/i]

Well it's certainly more fair than punishing someone more for being more successful.

by absolutely

[i]Also, organizations, e.g. churches, which are exempt from income tax, would have to pay this new tax.[/i]

Preferential treatment for organizations that produce no economic value, ie do not profit, was never consistent with equal protection [b]for all[/b] under the law. One more point [b]for[/b] the fair tax.

by inkling

John, I don't know if you read my post above or not...

The offer was a genuine one. If you are interested enough to read the book, feel free to PM me and I will gladly send you my copy (actually my 4th copy as I tend to give them away to people interested in it).

by ansugisalas

Those are not comparable. You guys always mess up with that.
There are democratic monarchies, democratic republics, democratic theocracies... wait, not sure about that last one.
But the thing is, one is a general model for distributing power and the other is a specific model of rule... they are compatible.

And no. Democracies do not devolve into tyrannies any more than tyrannies devolve into tyrannies.

They sometimes do. Just like some dictators are benevolent.

Mostly democracies turn tyrannical when they are corrupted from within.

Julius Caesar should caution USAnians about the dangers of senatorial republics. The step to Empire is short, and you've been wobbling there for 50 years.

by ansugisalas

Are we necromancers hated so?

Seriously, this thread was suggested to me by the board code as "people who... also...", so it's not my fault!

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