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Ah the Irony!!! To my Canadian friends.

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CANADA: Liberals headed for minority government! Conservatives Wipe Out Liberal Majority!

Liberals headed for minority government

By MARTIN O?HANLON

Canada heads to the polls
Party leaders holding breath
Voting day

(CP) - Paul Martin's Liberals were headed for a minority government in Monday night's federal election, buoyed by a surprisingly strong showing in Ontario and Atlantic Canada.

The Grits jumped to a big lead in seat-rich Central Canada after scoring a political knockout in the Atlantic provinces, handily beating back a challenge from the Conservatives while ducking punishment for the sponsorship scandal. A minority would be a bittersweet result for Martin.

It's a blow for a man who, just a few months ago, he had been expected to coast easily into office and whose website once boldly predicted a huge majority with over 200 of the 308 Commons seats.

But it's also likely a huge relief given that polls during the election campaign had suggested the Conservatives were on course to win a minority.

A new Liberal government will have to be far tamer animal than the mighty Jean Chretien majorities of the last 11 years. The fragile entity will have to rely on the support of the Bloc Quebecois or the NDP to survive, meaning every piece of legislation may have to be negotiated.

The Liberals were leading in about 130 ridings, including 100 seats in Ontario and Quebec after taking 22 of the 32 Atlantic ridings.

The Conservatives, a merger of the Canadian Alliance and the Progressive Conservatives, were leading in about 80 ridings. The party had a disappointing showing in the Atlantic region, taking just seven seats compared with eight in 2000.

The NDP were leading in more than a dozen seats in Ontario after taking three ridings in the Atlantic provinces.

The Bloc was on track to take about 50 seats in their home province.

The Conservatives' failure to capitalize on the Liberal sponsorship troubles in the Atlantic region may have been compromised by long Maritime memories.

In May 2002, Harper infuriated Atlantic Canadians when he blamed the region's "culture of defeat" for the Alliance party's inability to elect any members from the region.

In another slap to the Tories, Scott Brison, who abandoned the Conservatives to join the Liberals, easily won his Nova Scotia riding.

Brison, aware that many voters in B.C. had not yet gone to the polls, gave an early victory speech warning Canadians that Harper would run roughshod over minority rights and impose socially conservative mores on the country

Conservative Deputy Leader Peter MacKay, who won his Nova Scotia riding, said Liberal attack ads demonizing the Tories apparently took their toll.

Opinion polls had suggested neither party is headed for a majority in the 308-seat House of Commons, meaning the next government is likely to be decided by the party that can secure the backing of the separatist Bloc Quebecois, or possibly the NDP.

As the incumbent government, the Liberals would have the first crack at forming a government. If they failed, it would be up to the Governor General to invite the Conservatives to give it a try - or call a new election.

The party that does form a government will have to be a far tamer animal than the mighty Liberal and Tory majorities of the last 24 years.

The fragile entity would have to rely on the support of an opposition party to survive, meaning every piece of legislation may have to be negotiated.

Joe Clark's minority Tory government in 1979 lasted just six months before he was forced to call an election, but Lester Pearson managed to hold together two minority governments over five years in the 1960s.

Martin appeared headed for an easy majority just a few months ago before he was stung by the sponsorship scandal and hobbled by an unpopular provincial budget brought down by his Liberal cousins in Ontario.

The election campaign was more about whom not to vote for rather than whom to vote for.

The Liberals hammered relentlessly at Harper as a right-wing bogeyman. The attack was unwittingly fueled by several Conservative candidates who made controversial comments about gay marriage, abortion rights, bilingualism and overruling the courts on social issues.

Harper pounded back with equal vigour about Liberal waste and mismanagement, reminding voters daily about the sponsorship scandal and the gun registry.

It was part of a carefully orchestrated attack designed to inflict maximum damage on a government already limping from the sponsorship blow.

To my Quebec friends, here is one American who will not rest in his heart or mind till you have suceeded from Canada and have become an independent state, and thus a true Quebecois!

90 replies

by sauceco

What you are losing sleep over would be akin to the wonderfully rich and hearty acadian culture asking George W. to hand back the original Louisiana territory for cultural reasons. Just imagine autonomy in a large portion of the southern U.S.

Please don't get me wrong here...I fully support the protection, freedom and evolution of the Francophone culture IN Canada. Be it in Quebec, Manitoba, ect.

If Quebec were to separate do you believe for one second that the world would learn to speak french-canadian in order to do business with Quebec??? I think not.

Quebec would be further deluged with more need to be de-cultured in order to economicaly survive. Quebec's best hope for survival is to stay in Canada.

Up here we take care of our own. And Quebec is a vital part of this countries sociological landscape. My Canada includes Quebec. And my Quebec includes Canada.

It just wouldn't be right any other way.

B.T.W....what does this have to do with I.T.?

by garion11

But people here post political, historical discussions. In fact some of the rough and rowdy discussions on this board involve non IT posts.

As far as my comment on Canada or what not, I really don't care, lol. It would be interesting though if Quebec were to secede. I am not sure that has ever happened in a democracy?? Civil war era but that sucession was not on a vote aka democractic process. If anyone knows of an example please post here.

by mlayton

...perhaps you can post further discussions under the appropriate "miscellaneous" section, rather than the Network Administrator section. Just a thought.

by scott

Hi Garion

I don't know of any examples as such, however, keep a good eye on Vermont...it was a separate republic from 1777-1791 before joining the USA...with a self-described socialist in congress they could be on the move again;)

Scott

by maxwell edison

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I was just going on memory, but I thought it was Norway. At least I was in the right area - Scandinavia.

Are you sure it was Sweden? (Okay, Im going to look it up.)

by jamesrl

Even the Conservatives would not get rid of our existing national healthcare plan - although they disagree on the interpretation of the basic principles, they wouldn't scrap it. They would introduce more private delivery of services - but thats not really new. I fail to see the difference, when I can go to a private clinic for an X ray, with going to a private clinic for an MRI. The government still pays(though the socialist NDP try and confuse the issue with user pay, and are sucecssful).

As for Quebec, if they ever do win a referendum(which personally I don't think will happen) it will be a bitter divorce but not a war. There is substantial assets to divide.

As for the minority government - the Liberals will govern with the aid of the NDP(socialists) so it will be more socialist leaning than it has been for many many years(the Liberals had swung to the right, cut spending and erased the deficit).

Some fun. Its not always as it appears in the media.

James

by oz_media

Well James, I was actually sending your a peer mail last night but the polls were still running ni BC so I decided to hold off as it was too close to call here. Obviously, North Vancouver island resident voted NDP (not myself though) as they are mainly loggers and sightsseing tour operators in Port Hardy and they tend to be mroe environmnetally driven (no not greenies) but actual people who live and survive of our wliderness. The majority of residents here are loggers for US owned Weyerheauser who owns most of North Vancouver Island forests and rely on mdical services and compensation as a focus for the government.

All in all, as I have said before, WE DON'T GIVE A CRAP ABOUT THE GOVERNMENT IN CANADA! Although SOME people voted, the turn out this year is lower than ever. We figure as long as our PM can speak better than the illiterate yet harvard educated GWB, we should be okay.

They are just gonna sit in an office and play government all day anyhow, it's not in my face. As for Quebec, they are welcome to remain a part of Canada, if they really do think they would benefit as a separate entity then so be it, no skin off my nose, we are talking about Canadians here, they can do whatever they please!

by maxwell edison

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The comment you made about GWB being, "illiterate yet Harvard educated" just totally destroy any credibility you might manage to sneak into your messages.

You and I both know that GWB is not "illiterate". In fact, I would be willing to wager a year's pay that he is MORE literate and has a wider vocabulary than even you, the all-knowing, always-right Oz.

How can you say something that is so obviously and outrageously false, and expect people to take anything else you say seriously?

News Flash from Oz: Illiterate American President Censors The News Media.

(He really does believes them both.)

What a joke.

by datadowns

Not that it matters much (unless you actually went to or otherwise represent Harvard) but I thought he went to Yale.
But what would I know, I'm just here to facilitate the peaceful and democratic transtion to Canada's 11th province.

by oz_media

Yesterday you made s really patriotic blast of a post full of inaccuracies and errors about how you have pulled out of Iraq, remember? Nada, not a one! and all that stuff?

Well how about backing up and at least addressing questions before you start changing the topic like our honored and praised leader? just as GWB does, you evade the question and change the subject.

So..again. You still have 138,000 troops in Iraq, they will probably be there AT LEAST until this time next years, you have NOT pulled your trops out, you have NOT turned over the government. This is an interim government and US troops will remain in Iraq until a stable woring government is established and GWB himself feels that Iraq can run it's own country (how nice of him). All your other comments were pretty inaccurate too, back up and answer the question before trying to sound clever.

by garion11

Well of course we still have troops in Iraq. They are needed to maintain peace and train the Iraqi army. But if we do pull out and leave the responsibility to the new government, you will be the first one to say, why did you leave the job unfinished, you left too early, you left too soon, so hence we come back to my original point, WTF is the point? Get it?

by oz_media

Yesterady you were jumping up and down as if you'd just got laid or something.

>> "As far as Iraq is concerned, we handed over power today, Monday June 28, 2004. Doh!!! I guess people missed that one. Let me guess, Its a puppet regime?? wait wait, its FAKE, the handover didn't really happen, our media lied to us?? Iraq won't have a democracy, our troops are still there, what did we do in Iraq?? nothing, I tell ya nothing."

you are FAR FAR FAR from removed from Iraq. Your troops are still seeing extreme levels of violence Iraqi's from these terrorist regimes you have effectively foiled. Your troops, over 130,000 THAT'S quite a loot of sons and daughters, are going to be there for another year at least.

Nothiong for me TO GET accept the fact that you are grasping at straws to try and cast SOME form of a positive candle flicker on this whole mess.

What you don't get is you are all just FEELING as if you have succeeded but the uinsurgents are still there, the death still happens, the terorists are still terrorizing Iraqis, and Americans.

by garion11

Again, you really don't know American attitude, and I don't expect you to. If something does happen in this country, like a dirty bomb going off, another 9/11 magnitude attack, etc...I feel sorry for the muslims that are currently living in this country. People are getting fed up with this lack of response from the muslim community. GW won't be voted out as much as you wish he would if another attack happens.

by maecuff

That he would need an 'attack' to keep him in office..doesn't say much for him, does it? And as far as feeling sorry for Muslims, that attitude is really scary. What are they supposed to do? Throw themselves from a bridge because of the actions of people who have NOTHING to do with them? What kind of 'response' were they supposed to give????

by oz_media

If you are attacked by terrorists again, you feel it should be the America Muslim community that is punished. Well if so, no wonder you guys are having problems, you don't know where to shoot your guns next?!

Now I will assume that this isn't specifically how YUO feel, i am sure that you don't think the Musilims in America are responsible or even should be held responsible for terrorists. That would be so far off base, you are condemning Musilims for their religion based on the actions of others who share that religion.

A little far fetched if you ask me, why utter threats like that in the first place, and YES you did pose it as a threat.

by highlander718

Czech Republic and Slovakia ? The Baltic countries ? I mean there was no war for it, no ? (Other than the cold war of course :-))

by garion11

"What are they supposed to do? Throw themselves from a bridge because of the actions of people who have NOTHING to do with them? What kind of 'response' were they supposed to give???? "

So what are Americans supposed to do about US policies going back to 1950s?? What about the Americans who had nothing to do with middle eastern policies that died on 9/11?? Throw themselves from tall buildings because of actions of people/governments who have NOTHING to do with them?? What kind of response were they supposed to give????

You took the words right out of my mouth. I am just saying, if another attack happens on American soil, I wouldn't want to be a muslim in this country.

by oz_media

No matter how evasively you TRY and word it, what you have done is uttered a direct threat against fellow Americans who follow the muslim religion. They came to America to get away from their homeland, do you expect them to apologize or something? Don't you think it must be horrible for them to walk the streets as it is, without some knob thretening them that if these terrorists in another country attack America they are gonna feel the wrath.

by garion11

not a direct threat or anything. Stop reading between the lines, if I wanted to threaten American muslims, I won't put anything between the lines, I will just come out and say it.

My point was more broad in scope. I go to bars and restaurants, movies etc...and you can kinda of pick up the mood and conversations that are going on. I was just potraying that in this thread. People here are fed up from a lack of action if you will from the muslim community. Some people sprayed "All muslims must die" in one of their mosques after Paul Johnson was beheaded. Its stuff like that, the backlash.

Is it right or wrong? I dunno, a pissed off mob doesn't care. Hell I am scared because I am have Arab looking features, and I'd hate to have people confuse me for a terrorist, lol. So..yeah..you get the picture.

After watching those muslim videos on a previous thread I posted, and a lack of response from the muslim community after these events, I am just as confused as to what their intentions are, to be muslim/American or to turn America into muslim. Its not just America, its England, Europe, even France that has these right wing parties gaining a foothold.

But anyways, heres a cheer to BIG boobs and good food. *grin*

by oz_media

Here are some new words and gramatical errors made in Bush's speeches.

>Washington, D.C., Jun. 22, 2004 - Bush when referring to Abu Ghraib, couldn't get his tounge around the name and just bypassed it all together.
"The Prime Minister brought up the Abu Garef ---- si -- situation."

>In three separate speeches he referred to 'suiciders' as if he had recently invented a new word.

>May 25, 2004: "Rick Sanchez has done a fabulous job. He's been there for a -- a long time. His service has been exemplorary." EXEMPLORARY???

>May 10, 2004 : "We're encouraged to see more 'IRAQS' take responsibility for resolving the standoff in Najaf"

>May 10, 2004: "Soldiers from the 2nd Light CALVARY Regiment are conducting reconnaissance to learn the precise strength and location of enemy forces."

>Apr. 21, 2004: "So that's -- what -- there's some ideas. And the -- it's -- my job is to like think beyond the immediate."

>Apr. 13, 2004: "Secretary of State Powell and Secretary of State Rumsfeld, and a number of NATO defense and foreign ministers are exploring a more formal role for NATO."

>THIS ONE'S GREAT!; Apr. 13, 2004 "Good evening. Before I take your questions, let me speak with the American people about the situation in Iraq. This has been TOUGH WEEKS in that country"

>Apr. 13, 2004: "Coalition forces have encountered serious violence in some areas of Iraq. Our military commanders report that this violence is being insticated by three groups"

>Apr. 13, 2004: "The -------- the -- frankly mood of the world would have been astounded had the United States acted unilaterally in, uh, trying ta deal with al Qaeda in that part of the world."

> Dec. 15, 2003: I wanna remind you all that I -- in, in order -- what -- in order to fight and win the war it requires A expenditure of money -- uhh, uhh -- that is COMMISERATE with keeping a promise to our troops to make sure that they're well paid, well trained, well equipped.

>MY FAVORITE! Dec.2, 2003: "Some of the other members of the [NASCAR champion] crew are here, as well. Where are they, Robbie? Where are the members of your crew? Well, they MUSTA COULDN'T pass the security check"

Well there are TONNES more of his slips and improper pronounciations through his speeches. I guess too much coke and booze in school.

Funny part, almost ALL of these slips (available in original audio form)are changed, corrected, punctuated to make sense etc. in the finished White House transcripts available on the White House site.

What a maroon! What a Hillbilly wannabe, spoiled rich kid. He acts like a little spoiled rich kid, but expects to be acepted as one of the people while talking like a grade 4 hillbilly.

I say you SHOULD vote for him, to appear on Jerry Springer perhaps.

by oz_media

Well wha donchyall, just sittle dan a beat and leesten up ya'hear? What a goof. Type of dork that would have been beat up each day for his lunch money.

by maxwell edison

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Did you know that GWB said that intentionally as a joke, and was "playing along" with the "image" thing?

Never misunderestimate someone's intentions if you don't really know for sure.

by oz_media

Someone had sent me peer mail and pointed this information out to me.

I posted in order to get someone to bite, I didn't figure it would be yourself as you haven't been around too much lately. Lo and behold, Max took the hook right in the lip.

by maecuff

who is a dyed in the wool republican even admitted to me that when GWB speaks he just prays that he gets through his speech without sounding like an idiot.

by oz_media

That would be 0 for how many now?

Too many speeches for me to even want to remember.

by maecuff

I won't discuss GWB with my boss or his wife. We're friends and I'd like to keep it that way. I've been at work for 18 out of the last 24 hours. These discussions are the only thing keeping me awake..

by maecuff

ok Max. I'm thinking that if you mangle the English language on a regular basis, it might be a good idea to steer clear of those types of jokes.

by oz_media

I thought it was a great way to unwind and relax. This is the most redundant forum on the net? Oh well, drone on I suppose.

by maxwell edison

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Sure, he (GWB) has certainly had his share of gaffs. But it goes to show, he's got a great sense of humor, he really doesn't care what his detractors think of him, and he's pretty confident in himself.

And if you think he's always a lousy speaker, try to find his eulogy speech at the 9-11 memorial at the National Cathedral. You'll never think of him the same way again. That was absolutely magnificent - a 10 to be sure.

by garion11

Since we are "FAR FAR FAR removed" from leaving Iraq, what would you do? How long would you the great OZ take??

Whats FAR?? If we leave in a week is that good for you? Would that appease you?? Would it give the world a hard-on?

LOL this is what I mean...If we leave in a week, you will find something wrong with it, if we leave in 10 years, you will find something wrong with it. You are the eternal pessimist. Its almost like you are obsessed with America and its policy. Any thread that doesn't concern America you managed to turn into an American related conversation...whats going on? Ya wanna move here or something??

We have good hotdogs, beer, all kinds of racially mixed chix!!! *grin*.

by oz_media

You are trying to tell a brit living in Canada that you make good beer? Do you really think someone (even an American) would agree with such crap? We had that conversation a few days ago, Americans agreed hands down, your beer just doesn't cut it.

Anyhow, back to reality.

I don't want to see you pull out of Iraq, YOU SHOULDN'T BE THERE TO BEGIN WITH!!!!!!!

You HAVE to stay now, exactly why most people didn't think it was a good idea to begin with as it was a premature and poorly planned invasion from the onset.

YOU need to stick around and get the job done, I am NOT one of those people who feels you should all leave and let them deal with it. You need to fix these issues in Iraq, unfortunately, you are looking to hand the problem to someone else and let your ALLIES stay and help rebuild Iraq, much like Afghanistan. You pull MOST of your troops out and other allied countries are left to face random acts of terrorism and violence upon them while you go to Iraq and call everyone an areshole for not joining you.

You only see ONE view behind all this, AMERICAS view, that's it. Not one of your posts has showen any concern, compassion or even a hint of care about al the others who are fighting or at risk as you do your thing in Iraq. Well done you self centered fool, go and kill some more US soldiers in the name of Uncle Sam and blame it on the rest of the world. Here's a new one for you, why doesn't America take responsibility for her actions for once and stop blaming the rest of the world for what they did or didn't do?!?

by garion11

Whose blaming the world dude? How did you get from US shouldn't be there to us not taking responsibility for our actions? If you want to do that, we can go all the way to the stone age..and start blaming the cave men.

So you don't want us to pull out of Iraq? OK GOT IT!!! But you said we shouldn't be there in the first place...but we are..so we shouldn't pull out. SO we should stick around and finish? OK GOT IT.

"So..again. You still have 138,000 troops in Iraq, they will probably be there AT LEAST until this time next years, you have NOT pulled your trops out, you have NOT turned over the government. This is an interim government and US troops will remain in Iraq until a stable woring government is established and GWB himself feels that Iraq can run it's own country (how nice of him)"

You sound gleeful that we are still there and we still gotta hang out there for another year. So my point is the same as your point??? I agree we should stay there till the interim government is up and running and Iraq is a free country.

"As far as Iraq is concerned, we handed over power today, Monday June 28, 2004. Doh!!! I guess people missed that one. Let me guess, Its a puppet regime?? wait wait, its FAKE, the handover didn't really happen, our media lied to us?? Iraq won't have a democracy, our troops are still there, what did we do in Iraq?? nothing, I tell ya nothing. " <<<< This was my quote from the other thread.

This was your response..."Yesterday you made s really patriotic blast of a post full of inaccuracies and errors about how you have pulled out of Iraq, remember? Nada, not a one! and all that stuff?"

I never said we pulled out, we handed over power...was my statement. But you assumed that I said it..or didn't read it properly or, or better yet, read either too much or too little into it, or assumed what you wanted to assume.

How can I debate with someone like you, when you do this kind of thing LOL. About the beer situation, I never EVER EVER SAID...American beer was better in anyWAY...to any other country's beer...HOLY COW, I WASN'T EVEN COMPARING BEERS!!! Why did you assume I compared beers?? LOL. Are you INSANE?? Smoking too much CRACK are we?? Whats the matter with you dude, Relax, take a deep breath, and think and answer clearly and straight forwardly..hell curse if you want...but respond to factual posts, not your assumptions, or your wishes on what others should say. Get it??

by burgerbaron

You obviously should ask the 50 million people that are tasting freedom for the first time in their lives and will go vote shortly at the risk of getting killed ,yet they line up anyway.
First time in thousands of years the people will be their own steward with civil rights.
Yeah,what a disaster,2 wars won,2 democracies getting established,tens of thousands of lives saved,U.N. corruption exposed.
Why that is just a terrible job,lol,lol. Awful,in fact only the most successful in history.Damn that George Busch he should know better than not to screw with the lying liberal status quo.Just awful.
Funny you should be so concerned about the American soldiers as the vast majority of them who are not you sitting typing this securely but rather dodging bullets and happily doing their jobs.Happily,yes that is correct.The highest re-enlistment rate we have ever had and that includes people volunteering to go back to Iraq.
Yours is the typical liberal thought,a persons pain is a liberals nuisance.
If the terrorists have a good ole time blowing you up in your safe haven.Wonder who you will call to help? Hhhhmmm. America? No we will not come,you see under your guise it will be your problem so yeah,do not come a knocking while your country's a shakin.If not for us you would not exist.We need to boycott every single Canadian item.Wait do you have anything besides sick cows you export?

by oz_media

Ok Max, PERHAPS he intentionally was goofing around as we all do sometimes.

So explain your wat around all the other inabilities to form proper English words that your Harvard scholar has?

When it all comes down to it though, WHY should you need to stand up to your president being called names all day? I certainly wouldn't stand for it! Why should I need to defend all of the PM's mistakes? If I was you,I would hold GWB accountable for once and get him to pull up his socks or sit down and let someone competent run your (and every other) country for four years.

by oz_media

For God's sake, you know as well as the rest of the American population that he has speech writers and vocal coaches that work with the president on voice inflection, body language and announciation just as any other president has. You can teach a parrot to give a eulogy speech with enough help. At least I'd believe the parrot.

If they keep it simple and the words are practiced in front of a mirror for a while, he should be able to pass himself off as somewhat intelligent. When he is cornered and simply has to come up with an answer, he's like a little kid. 'Well...like...um...HE DID IT!!!"

by oz_media

No I don't. I have never held someone's religion as a reason to distrust or resent them in Canada.

Even if Iraqi citizens were my neighbours and i was in the States, I wouldn't expect them to apoologize or feel accountable in even the most remote wy for whaat terrorists in their country have done.

Do you feel the world is looking at you or the need to apologize when a man walks into MacDonalds and blows the crap out of all the patrons? No, it has nothing to do with you except he is a male. Even a white male (however I don't know your race).

If you get picked on in school, should you then distrust and look sideways at everyone bigger than you?

What a moronic and narrow minded train of thought.

Muslims radicals are attacking YOUR soldiers in THIER country, you are expecting Muslims to feel accountable for this? YOu think that OTHER people would retaliate against local muslims in America? WOW, reason number ??? not to become American.

by oz_media

turn america into muslim??? Is America now a religion? Do you REALLY think that these muslim immigrants want to turn America into thier homeland? What would be the purpose of leavin gyour homeland? That is about as radical as any wierd statement I have read regarding this whole mess you created.

You soeak of "what thier intentions are" as if Muslims are some form of alien race that you are not able to communicate with, you really need some help and a trip around the world man, your head is so full of American propaganda it is scary.

Right Wing parties gaining foothold?? What the hell is THAT supposed to men?

Democracy's are voicing their rights? That's like sayig The Democrats are gaining a foothold in america, well of course they have a foothold, they are a damn political party, not the plague!

YOU have fought for your freedoms that apparently aren't available in other countries, yet if the other side speaks there, they are chastized. In other countries, where you feel they are not truly as free as Americans (again you need to get out more often)they have no repression and are free to voice their opinion without the fear of being chastized for speaking up. So why do you FEAR that one side is actually able to speak out and be heard? Is yours the only correct theory behind life and existence as we know it, I sure hope not.

As for the Big boobs comment, yes it puts your entire post into perspective. A child's perspective that is.

by oz_media

Sure we did Max.

So how long does it go on, would you like me to email you the reply I sent to the person who prompted me to these errors? You would probably be shocked to see what a fellow American had to say about your current administration.

You may hate my posts here, you seem to have less and less to say other than the "NO I DIDN'T, YOU DID" comments. I do get quite a few peers that have never spoken here sending me peer mail and saying they applaud my comments and it is about tiem someone spoke up. They are all relctant to speak themselves as they are americans and would be chastized themselves for not supoting your government. Democracy my ass, it's a dictatorship. A self effatuating autocracy that perpetuates the social and economic differences in your society!

by garion11

"Democracy's are voicing their rights? That's like sayig The Democrats are gaining a foothold in america, well of course they have a foothold, they are a damn political party, not the plague!

YOU have fought for your freedoms that apparently aren't available in other countries, yet if the other side speaks there, they are chastized. In other countries, where you feel they are not truly as free as Americans (again you need to get out more often)they have no repression and are free to voice their opinion without the fear of being chastized for speaking up. So why do you FEAR that one side is actually able to speak out and be heard? Is yours the only correct theory behind life and existence as we know it, I sure hope not."

My reply was a...hmm...general reaction to how some people around here feel. How the hell did you get to all of that?? But anyways, I know politics can be a very emotional subject but seriously relax, chill out, yea?? Don't you NOT like big boobs?? Any other guy would laugh at that statement..but you..are a guy right?? you are not gay or anything right?? I mean hell if you are, nothing wrong with that...just asking (for future references, I AM NOT GAY).

*cough* ahem..soo..my statement on right wing parties taking a foot hold in Europe, I never implied they were a plague or anything...just that I noticed Europe's political climate has changed a little since 9/11. Le Pen in France, (don't have the source with me at the moment but..) a party in Belgium, Switzerland, even Germany and England. What right wing means ...is another story, which hopefully we can discuss...but before we do...we seriously need to identify where you are on the politcal spectrum. Care to take a little test??

by oz_media

You are just so slow in trying to get what people say it is painful!!

As for you staying in Iraq, yes i think you should. As for you being in Iraq, No I don't think you should be there to begin with. It's the too late now syndrome that Bush used to his advantage, by ignoring your allies and going in early, you were able to have your little war and look victorious to other Americans while opening a can of worms. If you had WAITED as asked you would have canada's recon, at least TWO uneeded tank patrols would have never been hit costing America soldiers lives, you would have had a MUCH larger force with MUCH more fear being inflicted on the terrorists who are out to get you guys anyway. You went in early against allied wishes, you then pissed on your allies for not coming in with you and to top it all off, asked for allied support afterwards. get it togethyer America, peoplel don't take such crap.

You were all happy and ranting in an 'IN you face" fashion so don't go backpeddling now.

As for swearing at each other, it is not accepted by ANYONE on TR, as for American beers...
"We have good hotdogs, beer, all kinds of racially mixed chix!!! *grin*."

Well you may think your beer is OK but the rest of the world and a great deal of Americans KNOW it sucks big time, piss-water supreme. Racially mixed chicks? Who doesn't have them?
HOT DOGS??? give me a break, hot dogs and American beer, now that's appetizing!

I'll have a steak and a Guinness or a Becks, or a Stella or anything un-American/Canadian.

Sorry, I thought you'd be able to see that clearly enough the first time without me reiterating myself.

by oz_media

What does that matter? Do I need a label like most Americans so you can understand my views? Whatever.

As for being male or gay, I am make and not gay. I don't think your grade school humor is welcome here though,they are extremely tight about what canbe said, insinuated etc. here, if it is in anyway targeted toward a specific group or minority, leave it off of here. Especially sexist comments, we have respectable women here who may be used to such kiddie kicks but it is not appreciated by anyone.

For the rest of it, it simply isn't worth discussing with you, sorry, not to sound rude but it really isn't going to get anyone anywhere.

by garion11

You don't bother to read anything anyways...You are very confrontational..something you accuse America of doing.

Lets just agree that you are an ahole whose soo anti-american, that you don't see anything good in what we do...and I personally don't give a damn.

As far as TR nazi police are concerned, if I get kicked or banned, oh well!!!...you been saying that for the last 6 mo...keep talking!!!

You are a complete idiot...who is EVERYTHING you accuse America to be, you don't answer any questions, take everything as confrontational, assume stuff about people, etc etc..in other words, an A**HOLE OH WAIT, should I say a WANKER!!!???

GWB is really dumb, We are blind and follow his lead like sheep, our media lies to us (or better yet its controlled by the whitehouse) which shows YOU KNOW NOTHING about America, absolutely NOTHING. NOT ONE F***ING THING!!! You are a liar, a coward, fearful, very bitter, envious, jealous person of America (yet you keep denying that), you want us to lose...you will smile with pure glee if we lose the war (lose is whatever you will define at that time).

You spin your stories, change the subjects, again...everything you accuse America of being. So hence we come to the original point that started this see saw...WTF IS THE POINT!!!

by oz_media

You are the one freaking out here sir. Firstly, nobody said TR had Nazi police, you made that up. I explained that TR staff nor TR peers appreciate name calling. At the time when I mentioned it, several warnings and membership cancellations had occurred over a few months because people were pushing the limits. THey are pretty good at letting things sit, but people do complain and TR does act upon complaints.

What's next,
>"You are very confrontational..something you accuse America of doing."
Your government is NOT confrontational? What, are you now claiming to be a neutral country? Of course your country is seen as confrontational, you have spent the most military dollars, have the most weapons, have the largest number of troops and have been at war for the past 12 years. Your most recent venture was a questionable invasion justified by a different means each week of the invasion. Canada is non confrontational, Austria is non confrontational, America is a self proclaimed Super Power, THAT is confrontational even if only psychologically.

>"You are a complete idiot...who is EVERYTHING you accuse America to be, you don't answer any questions, take everything as confrontational, assume stuff about people, etc etc..in other words, an A**HOLE OH WAIT, should I say a WANKER!!!???"

In the above sentence you have called me a names, accused me to be exactly what you have just done, been confrontational or in other words, been an A**HOLE and a Wanker.

>"GWB is really dumb, We are blind and follow his lead like sheep, our media lies to us (or better yet its controlled by the whitehouse)"

This was my statement in a nutshell. As you are an American citizen and possibly old enough to vote, you are the first person who is able to voice his differing opinion and possibly PROVE me wrong. I have provided sources of information that have caused me to arrive on my theory, which I am entitked to and also entitled to voice without predjudice. You are always very welcome to do the same and provide information to prove me wrong, as at one time this forum was based on fact and proof countered by fact and proof.

>"You spin your stories, change the subjects, again...everything you accuse America of being. So hence we come to the original point that started this see saw...WTF IS THE POINT!!!"

My 'stories' are opinions formed based on viewing reports and news from both sides and from several countries over the past year or so (in the case of Iraq). Do you somehow form your opinions differently, or perhaps with a personal bias (as you are American you MUST have a biased opinion toward defending your country's actions, just as any American will)?

I actually didn't change the subject at all, I was asked to reiterate my previous comments, which I had while including your own statements to show exactly what I was responding to.

As for the seesaw, it is called Debating. Debating sometimes occurs when Discussions participants differ in their views. Debating has helped build America and Canada into the nations they are today. The inability to deebate usually indicates a desire for dictatorship.

WTF is the point? Well I seem to have seen many reports and been accustomed to seeing a completely different side (as well as ALL your US news we get here from all the networks)and I can tell you, the information seen around the world is a completely different twist on the American reports. I was stunned that so many people were behind such a sketchy need for an invasion, perhaps this is why, reporting. Well this was again confirmed when the world's reporters, NOT ME, were shown in a 1 hour documentary and ALL complained of US censorship of photos and reports they had submitted. SO this IS true, nobody EVEN The White House will disgree that they have censored the photos of dead soldiers and caskets, do you really think that it is so far fetched that they would censor OTHER media that doesn't make you look so good? Tell me your not THAT naive. It's just a matter of common sense, what motive would journalists have, from countries all over the world, to lie about having stringent media restrictions on American news that they were allowed to show elsewhere, such as Canada? What would be the purpose? I spoke of some photos and nobody had seen them in the US. So what part of that is what you call MY lies? I am only repeating what I've heard and believe to be true, no different than yourself, except you scream out when someone speaks their view of your country. I simply proivide the information to prove your statements wrong or at least show another side to your views.

SO when you learn how to read and comprhend that all I am doing is answering your exact postings with contrary 'facts and opinions' (where have I heard that lately, uh oh!)you blame me as anti-American (like I should be Pro-American for some reason) and slam my character instead of offering contradiction to my views.

Oh well, trix are for kids.

by maxwell edison

.
President Bush had literally no time to prepare for such a speech in the days immediately following 9-11. Moreover, considering the extremely emotional subject matter, not to mention that the nation's honor was being challenged, President Bush gave an absolutely magnificent speech. It was obvious to all who saw it, that it came from the heart. It was compassionate. It was understanding. It was strong. It was determined. It was perfect. It was a ten.

It's obvious that you didn't see the speech, but you still elect to comment on it. Again, you show that you don't know what you're talking about.

You really are looking pretty foolish with some of the things you say.

by garion11

Ok first of all, did it perhaps, just maybe cross your mind, that the media that is non-US related that you supposedly get, is wrong? is biased in their same hatred and *GASP* fear of US you share?? So hence they make up lies?? about US media censorship etc?? As far as the pictures are concerned, which pics are those?? Did the world media show the rebuilding of Iraq that is being done...?? We are rebuilding you know, amid all that chaos, there is positive work being done. Did you see those pictures or did it take my last fiery thread for people to see those?? or did you only see the violence? I see the violence here (although not as graphic) but I also see the positive side.

As far as your military spending "debate" here is the spending stats that I dug up. Very informative stuff...and surprisingly we are number 3 on the list (first 2 being Israel and Singapore!!! respectively).

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/mil_exp_dol_fig_cap

But another site had different information...which shows US spends as much as the next 6 countries combined.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/040611.html

Now why is it so high?? Read the last sentence of the above link. But for the lazy people..

"Who's at the bottom of the list? Why, Iceland, where annual military expenditure per soldier is $0, owing to the fact that the country has no regular military and thus no military budget. How can that be in our wicked world? Easy. The country is protected by the Icelandic Defense Force, maintained by--you guessed it--the United States"

Yeah, bigger military budget does not necesarily mean confrontational. US does a lot of peace keeping missions for other countries as well as UN (the very organization that everyone wanted us to go through) Did your world media report this as well??

http://www.unitednorthamerica.org/simdiff.htm

Here are more links.

So what will you say to this?? Its a lie?? oooh wait, I was hypnotized by GWB to show you these numbers. Thats why this isn't a debate, its a frigging see saw. I am at least honest enough to admit that.

by jamesrl

The Question of Separation by Jane Jacobs.

She is an american who moved to Canada. One of her main fields of study is the economies of cities, and the book deals alot with the rise and fall of Montreal(economic hub of Quebec) and the subsequent rise of Toronto (economic hub of Canada).

She spent a few chapters on how Norway peacefully left and what would happen if Quebec left.

James

by oz_media

Because GWB had very little time to prepare, there is no way that a few of his hoards of professional staff that are hired to write and edit his speeches would not have been able to come up with something for him to say?

What about when there is a crisis and he is expected to offer immediate comments? Do you REALLY kid yourself by thinking he gets up in front of america and the wolrd and speaks impromtu?

Whatever, nobody needs to read anything or HEAR anything to see this.

by oz_media

All you have done here is misunderstood my post to begin with and ranted off on some bizarre tangent about crack heads. Now I know that too many crack heads is a major problem in the USA but not as bad here. The reporters I spoke of were not from MY media or even just MY country, so NO I haven't considered they were all lying around the world INCLUDING US reporters.

You see, I get just over 60 TV channels, all but 6 or 7 of them are US channels.I see CNN, FOX, ABC, NBC, CBS, etc. etc. etc., that's why I am so sick of seeing YOUR freak (GWB)in my face everytime I turn on the TV for entertainment, instead it's channel after channel of US news. I probably see more of a US perspective on this whole mess than you do. The difference is, I am not LIMITED to only US reports, I get Canadian TV, Middle Eastern TV (amusing on a Sunday morning), Asian and UK TV. I live in a VERY multicultural country that allows TV viewing to cover many different races and make them feel at home while living in Canada.

As for WHO the reporters that were complaining were, well there was over 100 of them, from the USA, Canada, the UK, Baghdad, you name it, all over the world, ALL complaining that their work was being blocked from reaching the US audience by The White House, you can look them all up and tell them they re lying if you wish. This has also been posted on several US news websites so our friends to the south have an idea too.

I never said you were COMPARING beers, but you were spouting about what makes America is beer, hotdogs and either a racially mixed choice of women or big boobs, one of the two.

Well if hotdogs and piss beer are what make the US, I feel very sorry for you. Everyone has that.

Your itemizing of US military spending is such an miniscule grasp at a straw that it is amusing. out of all that, the only things you could retaliate with was;
a) It must be outside reporting (which in my post I clearly stated it wasn't, had you read it properly).

b) You are not number one on the military spending list. But you ARE one of the top. to trump this, you even added that you conduct peace keeping missions, which I suppose you MUSt do to some extent but it is clear from the events in Iraq that the US Army is not trained for peacekeeping or policing the public, this is a well known fact and one that even your president and the military advisors have spoken of on TV and in news reports. Thus all the "acceptance" of the prison issues. Canada has a major global peace keeping role, that is why we are alled upon by the US and other countrues when recon and peace keeping/police troops ar needed.

In essence you have offered nothing in your defence. PROVE TO ME THAT THE WHITE HOUSE DOESN'T CENSOR YOU MEDIA REPORTS FROM IRAQ.

PROVE IT TO ME, you simply can't, it is an impssible issue to prove so don't even go looking for information, it wouldn't doesn't and can't exist. If it did, your government would be ADMITTING to censorship.

Some American peers have said they see a different veiw from around the world when they travel, how could this be??

I saw a picture of a soldier being carried to a hospital after being attacked by militia. That same photo was not shown in the US as the soldier later died from his wounds. Although they did show a picture taken a few days before where he was havign a grand ole time with the boys in camp, after a successful mission.
There was no mention that he later was killed that same day. This was not mentioned why? out of respect to his family, okay, so then why show the positive story anyway, why not pick someone else for the propaganda.

People in Nazi Germany denied the death camps (even though there was so much evidence). People in Nazi Germany, thought Hitler was saving them from being 'infected' by a global population.

Were they right? No. Could you have convinced them they were wrong? No. How did they get these ideas? They only saw Germany's side of the story and were fed propaganda everytime they doubted it.

Of course it is completely ridiculous and absurd to think that a modern government would act this way toward it's people, that's what they said in 1939 too.

by nd_it

The difference between 1939 and 2004 is that Nazi Germany controlled the public media and what the people of Germany heard, saw, and read. That is not the case here. Even though I don't agree with MM's show, I do think people have the right to see it and make up their own minds about it, that's democracy. IMO, I think the US media actually plays the negative side of Iraq more than the positive side, in the simple fact when it comes to reporting news, negative is always makes front page. Even when they aren't reporting on Iraq, it's usually something bad or negative (watching the news is pretty depressing actually). Yes, every now and then, there is positive things are reported, like schools being built, roads, girls going to school, etc. But most of the time it is negative. Have you ever seen the NY times or any other major newspaper in the country a couple days ago. They were bashing the handover of power. This process of handing over power is not just a quick snap of the fingers, it takes time. We can't just say "here's your government, good luck" and just pack up and leave. No, there would be 10 times the choas then there is now. And looking at the polls I don't think too many people are convinced GWB is doing a good job. His numbers are lower than 50%, which I believe it the lowest in history (I think?). I think if more people were convinced about what he is saying the numbers would be higher. But at least here we can say something about how the government is performing and sleep well at night unlike the Germans in 1939.

by oz_media

Well did you toss off while notching your bedpost? What WARS did you WIN?

Iran and Iraq? Iraq was an invasion by the USA, not a war.

Iran was a global effort by allied troops, not the USA's victory. As for WWII (if that's where you are going) think again.

as for the 50 million people tastnig freedom, that great! It seems to be the only valid argument for ANYTHING thrown at the USA though. Unfortunately, when this invasion was justified to the America poeople, there was very little mention of FREEING Iraqi's, it was 100% focused on WMD, Saddam hates America and must be stopped.

Poor example, it doesn't fly becaus eit was never a reason for your attacking Baghdad.

I don't remember seeing Iraqi's begging for you to provide a democracy, if so, you could have done this years agho instead of supporting Saddam's fight against Iran, then Iran against Iraq. You supported several wars, stood by while KNOWING Saddam was using WMD to kill hundreds of thousands and later decided to put an end to it.

You CHOSE to bring a democracy into Iraq, whether they wanted it or not, that's what they got, sorta.

I am not the Liberal status quo (again a US citizen who can't speak his mind without slamming the 'suspected'opposing political party)in an attempt to defame a statement that isn't even coming from THAT party's supporters. everything must be reduced to political stand as people can't make up their own minds??

Your soldiers are supposed to go to war when your country asks. It is their sworn duty to the country, they are trained to follow orders as they are issued and not to question the motives, although we have all seen reports from those that don't agree but are tsill in Iraq fighting because it is thier duty to. If my brother was killd in war, as soon as I was able, I would be singning up too. If my country went to war, and i was allowed to fight (which I am not due to spinal injuries)I would most definitely go to war. You seem to forget that the British all went to war when needed (with Canada, Australia and all other allied forces EXCEPT America), several years before you did. they wer beig bombed for sveral days straight be THOUSANDS of bombers and fighters that literally levelled London streets. Hitler failed at attacking England becaus the people stood up and fought back.

Mine is not a Liberal thought, I didn't vote Liberal.

the rest of your post is pure bullshit and doesn't hold a word of truth. If it wasn't for Canadians you would have invaed Canada in the 1800's. Canada (then British and French)effectively fought off the US nd kept Canada's borders intact. We are still in Iran as we fought beside you there, we have allocated millions to helping rebuild Iraq, except they are reluctant to start rebuilding as there is still too much terrorism in Iraq for Canada to send in peace keeping and troops and contractors.

If you want to boycot Canada, please do. When you bought ll that French wine to waste in the streets you actually helped the rench economy and they thank you for it. Personally I represent several artists selling tens of thousands of CD's in the US, please buy MUSIC and destroy it, the residuals are great! as for yuo NOT coming to Canada's rescue, well hopefully we will never elect a leader who puts us at risk the way GWB has to America. The best thing a Canadian can have on him when in another part of te world, a CANADIAN flag, we get confused as americans when travelling and the hatred toward your country is very apparent. Even in England I have almost been thrown out of a pub, I have had acts turned awway under the premise that I and they were American. Once straightened out, we are welcomed with open arms.

Why does everyone dislike America's actions? Why is it that ONLY Americans see what they are doing as just and forthright? How does the entire globe get a different opinion of you than you have of yourselves?
Because the NEWS you watch and buy into makes it that way.

You haven't WON anything, yuo think that VICTORY is the only solution, and THAT is whythe rest of the world disgrees with you. This relatively YOUNG country that feels it is their job to straighten out the rest of the world.

by oz_media

I knew it was on eof the big two in America but somehow Harvard was in my mind.

Ok Yale, that explanis it all, apparently they have a very poor education at Yale when compared to the prestige of Harvard? Nah, it's all the same pile.

by garion11

then I dunno what did. You are a wacky, lefty loony, dude!.

Your responses are short sighted, half-truths, spins, wishes, some even blatant lies (GASP).

"As for WHO the reporters that were complaining were, well there was over 100 of them, from the USA, Canada, the UK, Baghdad, you name it, all over the world, ALL complaining that their work was being blocked from reaching the US audience by The White House, you can look them all up and tell them they re lying if you wish. This has also been posted on several US news websites so our friends to the south have an idea too."

Who were the reporters?? What particular work was being blocked from reaching the US audience??
Show me the reports, pics, names of reporters etc etc. Otherwise STFU, cause you have no credible evidence either.

"You are not number one on the military spending list. But you ARE one of the top. to trump this, you even added that you conduct peace keeping missions, which I suppose you MUSt do to some extent but it is clear from the events in Iraq that the US Army is not trained for peacekeeping or policing the public, this is a well known fact and one that even your president and the military advisors have spoken of on TV and in news reports. Thus all the "acceptance" of the prison issues. Canada has a major global peace keeping role, that is why we are alled upon by the US and other countrues when recon and peace keeping/police troops ar needed."

So according to you, we don't spend the most (if you had looked at the second link, we actually do)

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/040611.html
Here it is again.

Well, Afghanistan and Iraq takes time dude...holy cow, you want them all fixed and ready by when, TOMORROW??? SUPPER??? Do you have a particular schedule in mind that you'd like to share?? When do you want us to finish the job?? WHEN???

"Thus all the "acceptance" of the prison issues"

Thus all the 'acceptance' of prison issues??

Bush went on Arabian/middle eastern TV and
apologized. What else did you want him to do? If he didn't apologize, you'd scream, bitch, moan, yell that he DIDN'T apologize. So we go back to the orignial issue, WTF IS THE POINT OF "DEBATING" WITH YOU!!!??

"In essence you have offered nothing in your defence. PROVE TO ME THAT THE WHITE HOUSE DOESN'T CENSOR YOU MEDIA REPORTS FROM IRAQ."

Proove to me it does, I have yet to see a particular report or pictures that won't be shown here (that you claim to exist)...although I admit some graphic pictures (its not because of whitehouse censorship) won't be shown here...they will be reported though!

You have no solutions, no answers, no constructive criticism if you will, only loonatic ranting and hatred of US.

How about England? What did England ever do to the world besides being exposed as a weak empire who was beaten by thirteen colonies?? THE MIGHTY BRITISH EMPIRE GETS ITS ARSE KICKED BY A PREVIOUSLY UNKNOWN PIECE OF LAND CALLED AMERICA. NOT TO MENTION BY INDIA, and they didn't even fire a shot (although British killed many Indian people during their fight for independence). You have a royal family who has more scandals in a year, than most people have hair and yet I see the British people kissing their arse like they were the second coming of Christ. Queen and country my arse!!! What a HAS BEEN SH*T EMPIRE!!!

You are an idiot dude, if America does something you holler and complain, if America doesn't do something you holler and complain, you don't even consider if its right or wrong, and frankly I am getting sick of you. Every conversation you turn into a Iraq/America thing, Every dialog...thread, post, "debate" I think you have a serious inferiority complex. Again stop smoking crack!!!

by garion11

then I dunno what did. You are a wacky, lefty loony, dude!.

Your responses are short sighted, half-truths, spins, wishes, some even blatant lies (GASP).

"As for WHO the reporters that were complaining were, well there was over 100 of them, from the USA, Canada, the UK, Baghdad, you name it, all over the world, ALL complaining that their work was being blocked from reaching the US audience by The White House, you can look them all up and tell them they re lying if you wish. This has also been posted on several US news websites so our friends to the south have an idea too."

Who were the reporters?? What particular work was being blocked from reaching the US audience??
Show me the reports, pics, names of reporters etc etc. Otherwise STFU, cause you have no credible evidence either.

"You are not number one on the military spending list. But you ARE one of the top. to trump this, you even added that you conduct peace keeping missions, which I suppose you MUSt do to some extent but it is clear from the events in Iraq that the US Army is not trained for peacekeeping or policing the public, this is a well known fact and one that even your president and the military advisors have spoken of on TV and in news reports. Thus all the "acceptance" of the prison issues. Canada has a major global peace keeping role, that is why we are alled upon by the US and other countrues when recon and peace keeping/police troops ar needed."

So according to you, we don't spend the most (if you had looked at the second link, we actually do)

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/040611.html
Here it is again.

Well, Afghanistan and Iraq takes time dude...holy cow, you want them all fixed and ready by when, TOMORROW??? SUPPER??? Do you have a particular schedule in mind that you'd like to share?? When do you want us to finish the job?? WHEN???

"Thus all the "acceptance" of the prison issues"

Thus all the 'acceptance' of prison issues??

Bush went on Arabian/middle eastern TV and
apologized. What else did you want him to do? If he didn't apologize, you'd scream, bitch, moan, yell that he DIDN'T apologize. So we go back to the orignial issue, WTF IS THE POINT OF "DEBATING" WITH YOU!!!??

"In essence you have offered nothing in your defence. PROVE TO ME THAT THE WHITE HOUSE DOESN'T CENSOR YOU MEDIA REPORTS FROM IRAQ."

Proove to me it does, I have yet to see a particular report or pictures that won't be shown here (that you claim to exist)...although I admit some graphic pictures (its not because of whitehouse censorship) won't be shown here...they will be reported though!

You have no solutions, no answers, no constructive criticism if you will, only loonatic ranting and hatred of US.

How about England? What did England ever do to the world besides being exposed as a weak empire who was beaten by thirteen colonies?? THE MIGHTY BRITISH EMPIRE GETS ITS ARSE KICKED BY A PREVIOUSLY UNKNOWN PIECE OF LAND CALLED AMERICA. NOT TO MENTION BY INDIA, and they didn't even fire a shot (although British killed many Indian people during their fight for independence). You have a royal family who has more scandals in a year, than most people have hair and yet I see the British people kissing their arse like they were the second coming of Christ. Queen and country my arse!!! What a HAS BEEN SH*T EMPIRE!!!

You are an idiot dude, if America does something you holler and complain, if America doesn't do something you holler and complain, you don't even consider if its right or wrong, and frankly I am getting sick of you. Every conversation you turn into a Iraq/America thing, Every dialog...thread, post, "debate" I think you have a serious inferiority complex. Again stop smoking crack!!!

by maxwell edison

.
After you posted your initial message, I did a little (emphasis on little - very little) reading about the connection between Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Denmark-Norway, Sweden-Norway, and whatever else there may have been.

I didn't do a lot of research, but starting in the early 19th century, Denmark had to cede Norway to Sweden (after a war, of course). And then, in the early 20th century, 1905 to be exact, Sweden and Norway parted ways - no war, but peacefully.

Thanks, James, for helping clear it all up. It was interesting to read about.

I would LOVE to see a serious movement in America to peacefully split it into two. I suppose what I would really like to see is ONLY the threat of the movement, never really coming to fruition, but rather be the impetus for change - radical change. "Liberal-Socialist" America (primarily Democrats), the ones who believe in collectivism and government forced transfer of income, the ones who believe in government solutions to individuals' problems, the ones who vote themselves gifts from the public coffers, the one's who created and want to maintain entire dependent classes of people, I'd like to see them make it on their own without the ones from whom they STEAL personal property. Sure, some of the people from whom the government STEALS personal property actually want them to do it. There is a very liberal elitist class of people in America who want to keep the down-trodden down, and keep a dependent class of people dependent. (Yes, I really believe that.)

Let the individualists have their own America (like we did have at one time), and let the collectivists have theirs. Gee, I wonder which one would flourish, and which one would be destined to end up in the trash-heap of failed attempts at "enlightenment"?

The Democrats were the party of slavery in the 19th century, and the Democrats are now the party of indentured servitude - indirectly, of course, but servitude nonetheless. Democrats - the party of bondage. Republicans - the party of unlimited opportunity.

The United Republican States of America on one side, and the Peoples' Republic of America on the other. Interesting to think about, at least.

by maxwell edison

.
(About Oz) that his "responses are short sighted, half-truths, spins, wishes, some even blatant lies".

I've known that since about May of '03 when he first appeared in these threads running off at the mouth about how great he was and how horrible the USA was. The thing is, many people know it, but they just choose to remain silent. Too many people, however, grew weary of his nonsense and don't come around anymore, and TechRepublic has lost some great contributors because of it.

by maecuff

Of course, I AM personally responsible for terrorism. The war is over and you figured it out all on your own.

I am appalled at the we'll just kick all y'all's asses and f*ck you if you don't like it attitude. It's embarrassing, accomplishes nothing..and makes us look like retarded rednecks.

by maecuff

Who here doesn't try to 'speak' for all Americans?? (Non-Americans excluded, of course) And god forbid if a dissenting opinion is posted, if it doesn't fall in line with others views of what patriotism is, blah..blah..blah.. then the attitude is.. if you don't like it, leave. Well, this is my country too, and I DON'T like many things that are happening, and I will take my one little vote and try to change what I don't like. That is what this country is all about. If you don't like THAT, why don't you leave..

by garion11

they will hate us anyways. Thats what I been trying to tell you. We could potray ourselves as the most polite, "nice", or what not, it won't matter with these people (mind you there are only like 3 or 4 wackos on these MBs).

They will continue to spin, lie, assume etc etc about America and her people. They already have a pre conceived notion of what America is about and what not. I am getting sick of it so hence we come to my original issue, wtf is the point of debating with these people.

by garion11

thats why I am not leaving. I am not the one whose complaining about an American foreign policy that came into existence after an unprovoked attack. God forbid if another city was attacked...how do you think those people would have reacted?? I agree with a some things Bush is doing and I completely disagree with somethings he has done. But my point with you is, when it comes to foreign policy of America, and after you learn some history of how much we contributed to the goodness of the world and we were attacked (unprovoked and civilian targets), you choose to not support someone who stands up for America and her interests. By all means, you have freedom NOT to do so, I am not arguing that, but that freedom to disagree is the very thing you are not supporting.

Its like watching your mother getting her throat cut and you not doing anything about it, but just standing there and watching it, and and listening to and influenced by the thugs who commited the crime (and your neighbors) believing that its her fault, she deserved it for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, etc etc. In other words, blame the victim attitude.

by jimhm

Max you should know better - Oz Media is always right even before he was born - or was he hatched - whichever...

The All Knowing - Always Right - OZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
- When someone calls him on something he said - It was a Set Up - Not that his comments were wrong - It was to Suck You in -

Remember the best way - to kill a bug like him is to ignore it - and it will go away. He isn't worth the time - because arguing with a moron is a losing battle...

by maxwell edison

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I've been round-and-round with him so many times that I couldn't begin to count them all. I've caught him in lies, contradictions, ignorance, mean-spiritedness, and so on, but, as you said, he is "always right", at least in his mind. (A real legend in his own mind.)

Disingenuous is the one word that comes to mind to cover just about all of it.

I've tried the ignore route, and it's really the best approach I suppose, at least in this context. But America is under attack right now. It's under attack by terrorists, by socialistic leaning nations (including the UN), by the radical left in America itself, by the hate-filled "Bush" haters (Have you ever seen someone who is "hated" to such a great degree by his opponents as GWB is?), and so on. And Oz is doing his part in the attack by doing what he does. And just as the soldier in the field is defending America's honor by carrying his rifle, I'm going to continue to defend her honor by carrying my pen (keyboard). After all, as the British novelist, Edward Bulwer-Lytton, once said, the pen is mightier than the sword. And considering all the "pens" attacking America right now, we need all the "pens" we can get to fend off the constant barrage of attacks.

More related quotes that apply:

The pen is mightier than the sword, and considerably easier to write with.
- Marty Feldman

A fool flatters himself, a wise man flatters the fool.
- Edward Bulwer-Lytton

(Maybe we should change our approach!)

by jimhm

Oz's true colour is showing - looks pretty red to me ... Oh thats right that country is no longer in existance ....

Glade to see others are seeing you Oz for who and what you are ...

by jimhm

Never ask Oz what is stance or position is on a subject - Why - because he swings in the breeze - whatever will cause the most replies to his posts.

Never ask what his Political position is - because then he is Labeled - Like Americans - He is a free Breezer - and changes position as often as people change underware...

When you try an get him to address a single subject he changes it and pulls a strawman - over to another topic - unrelated so he can excape..

Never - ever ask him to define his position on a subject - because he will be labeled and he Hates Labels as much as he hates America and GWB ...

by cactus pete

You know, Max, most people consider the Republican party of the Lincoln days to be the modern day Democratic party. So I don't know that I'd go announcing that bit of your above post too loud...

by maxwell edison

.
"Most people" is rather meaningless. Moreover, I disagree with that assertion. If you'd like to take that position yourself - leaving "most people" out of it - make your case, and I'll read it with interest.

The Republican Party, the party of Lincoln, faced fierce Democrat Party opposition in both the reconstruction efforts of the mid 19th century AND the civil rights legislation of the 1960s.

Besides, it appears as though you missed my point (intentional or not, I do not know).

by maxwell edison

.
"Most people" is rather meaningless. Moreover, I disagree with that assertion. If you'd like to take that position yourself - leaving "most people" out of it - make your case, and I'll read it with interest.

The Republican Party, the party of Lincoln, faced fierce Democrat Party opposition in both the reconstruction efforts of the mid 19th century AND the civil rights legislation of the 1960s.

Besides, it appears as though you missed my point (intentional or not, I do not know).

by cactus pete

Yes, I know that the GOP likes to lay claim to Lincoln - he was a great president - better than anyone expected, for sure. Of our presidents, I may just respect him the most [though I've never done a comparison on this basis].

I recall, from back in the high school and college days, that it was pretty much generally accepted that the parties were very different in the 19th century than they are now.

True, of course, that The Republicans faced a bitter fight over slavery issues, but it may have been even more bitter within the Democratic party itself. They split, and actually had two entries against Lincoln. Without that split, the terrible issue of slavery might not have been resolved as soon as it was.

So when I refer to "most people" perhaps I mean historians. Certainly, any modern GOP politician in an election year would want the stigma of the civil rights reputation off their back - and reminding people that Lincoln was a Republican is a good way to do that.

Personally, I am neither Republican nor Democrat. I've voted both ways, depending on the issue that carried the day.

If Lincoln was more liberal [and the party as a whole] than the democratic rivals, then I guess the parties have swapped places.

Would you agree to that?

by oz_media

Funny how you say that I won't reply as I hate to be labelled, then in the exact same sense you attempt to label me and degrade my [position as a result.

Case in Point, thnk of something else, that didn't fly at all. LOL

by sleepin'dawg

Frankly both of you are ignorant SOB's and should be kept in a room with rubber wallpaper. Wake up!!
We live in two of the best countries in the world and any Afgahnian or Iraqi would cut off his left nut to live in either country. One day the border between the two countries will disappear. Why???
Because it makes no sense. We speak the same language, drive the same cars, wear the same clothing and are with the exceptions of Louisianna
and Quebec governed pretty much by the same laws i.e. law rooted in English Common Law. It always amazes me to see Americans falling all over themselves to welcome royalty but what the hell if Canada and the US combine you can have the Queen although why you would want her eludes me. Canada on the other hand would become part of the greatest nation in the world. I say that not to denigrate Canada but to point out the success of the only true democracy. Americans do not pledge their loyalty to there land or their presidents or even their states. What they pledge allegiance to is their Constitution, probably the most important piece of paper in all of history as it embodies the highest aspirations of man. " A government of the people, by the people, for the people" it still sounds pretty good but Americans tend to forget sometimes that when oaths of office are sworn they are not given to Congress the President, the flag or to the land but to "Defend the Constitution against all enemies, both foreign and domestic." There has not been a war on this continent since the Cvil War. Americans tend to forget we are their friends. Which nation stuck its neck out in Iran in 1979
to help Americans escape? We were with Americans in Korea. We were with Americans in Afgahnistan. We were in Bosnia and Serbia before America pretty much the way we were in WW I and WW II.
Sure you would like us in Iraq but understand we are 30 million to your 300 million; maybe we can't afford it. The way I see it the lives of Iraqies or Afgahnians or Europeans for that matter aren't worth one drop of Canadian or American blood. Garion do you really want to know what pisses us off??? It's being taken for patsies. Oz, I've no idea of what you are but sane is the last thing that comes to mind. You boys need to be taken out behind the woodshed and have your heads banged together.

by garion11

I understand each country's interests are different and some can contribute and others can't. I had never ever had any problem with that at all. My issue was everyone comes on here and criticizes US for different reasons whether US was involved in anything or not. Its the blame America for everything attitude is what I have a problem with. They can't grasp nor understand that America has her own interests and is willing to fight for them, but at the same time the enlightened ones expect US and her citizens to understand the world's issues and problems. You can see how much truth spinning Australian media did to Bush's quote, its stuff like that, yet US was accused of censoring the media and other crap.

But whatever, lets just move on to the next discussion which I am sure will turn into a blame America attitude and I will be there for it.

by sleepin'dawg

An independant Quebec makes as much sense as an independant Texas. On a continent where there are fewer French speakers every year because of declining birth rates Quebec as an independant entity isn't very viable especially when Spanish speakers are so prolific. The Spanish speaking population of California outnumbers the total of French speakers on the continent. If Quebec ever managed to separate they would be on their knees begging the US for wellfare. We all know how America feels about the French in France just wait
till you get a taste of the Quebecois variety. There isn't enough mouthwash in the world to wash that taste away. Hmmmm. Isn't Garion a fro.. oops sorry, I meant to say French name?????

by garion11

But having said that, my post was about Quebec politics was completely ignorant and not based on anything. It was a joke, lol. But anyways, thanks for the info, I figured as much if Quebec ever managed to seperate.

As far as Oz is concerned, he is a British citizen? living in Canada who HATES (and I emphasize HATE), HATES US, unless its a Socialist president thats running the country. A short sighted, truth spinning, lying human being is our good old Oz. But anyway, enough with the compliments, thanks for the post.:).

by oz_media

You made som every brave and bold statements against my character and yet you have absolutely nothing to qualify you statements on.

"...(and I emphasize HATE), HATES US, unless its a Socialist president thats running the country"

had you ANY idea what you wer talking of, it would read this.

....(and I emphasize HATE), HATES BUSH" as far as the socialist thing goes, do you not have welfare in the US, and what exactly didn't you understand when James Linn showed exactly how we are NOT a socialist run nation nor have we ever been, in fact MANY of the programs that YOU deem as socialist are the exact same in the US. This was all broken down and explained well a few posts back yet you seem to have missd it or simply didn't understand it.

So whereas I have said MANY MANY MANY times here, I don't dislike America in ANYWAY, I have employed and worked with Americans, I benefit from americans buying CD from the artists I represent etc. I have had US offices and enjoy the US as a country and most of the people within it. So do I still HATE (I emphasize HATE) the US? Of course not, I DESPISE, (I emphasize DESPISE) your president. But I assume that in some warped opverpatriotic way that also means I hate America. Well so do half of the Americans you live with.

"A short sighted, truth spinning, lying human being" This is simply laughable, you have been THE most shortsighted and incorrect person to ever visit the TR forums. nothin gyou say holds any truth and can't be substantated with any facts, just comments and saccusations, at least I have proof for my comments. :-)

by garion11

just like anything else I say or anyone else says. You take it as a threat...beer comparision, women comparision, media comparision, whatever it is, you take it as a threat.

Insecurities and other psycho babble you spoke of and accused me and others, you posess those same issues little man. My statement was an opinion and NO I don't plan on going after Muslims if another 9/11 happens, but the fact that you took it as a threat and noone else tells me that you are a short sighted fool who is looking for a confrontation, again EVERYTHING you accuse America to be. Now go potty train.

by oz_media

It is because everyone knows you are just a little SH** disturber who thinks he has a point. They read your posts and peer mail me asking me why I bother responding to you.

Well, because it's guys like you that repress others that do atually have some sense.

All your other comments, little, fool, potty trina etc. just go to show how unable to respond you actually are and simply stand to further diminish your posting to BS.
As for pshycho babble, I understand and follow human psychology quite well, I study criminal minds and you are textbook. Don't ever go and kill people, you will be caught in a few hours.

by maxwell edison

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I lived in Burlington, Vermont (actually in Shelborn) when Bernie Saunders was the "self-described" socialist mayor of Burlington. Yes, he did run on that "socialist" platform, and he did win. He used to walk up and down the (outdoor) Church Street Mall greeting all the "homeless" people who seemed to flock to Burlington to take advantage of the plethoria of social programs. And if I remember correctly, to pay for all these social programs, Burlington had an extremely high city tax rate, and businesses in Burlington were taxed at a rate of OVER 100 percent of the assessed value. And the state's property taxes are quite high as well.

Texas and Vermont - the two U.S. states that were, at one time, an independent republic. If Vermont went their own way, they could not survive.

Did you hear about the town on the eastern edge of Vermont, Killington, that is trying to get themselves annexed by New Hampshire to lower their tax burden? They claim that their business and property taxes send $10 million a year to the state, but they only receive $1 million a year in benefits from those taxes.

by sleepin'dawg

Well its nice to see the lunatic fringe is alive and kicking in both Canada and the US. OZ- for what it's worth we just dispensed with Chretien who just like GWB is/was a master of malapropisms and in both cases I think it's the pucker factor kicking in when they appear in front of large groups. The tongue runs away with the brain. GTF off it. Chretien is gone now we've got George to satirize. BTW your Canadian provincialism if not chauvinism is showing when you put down an Ivy League school like Yale, Harvard, Dartmouth or Princeton all of which are on a par with McGill, Western, U of T or Queens. Note I DO NOT include
run of the mill schools like UBC or Simon freaking Frazer out there on the "left" coast where they teach salmon fish hook baiting and alternate methods of deforestation other than Agent Orange. I am thinking you just might be a socialist and I think that if you scratch a socialist deep enough you'll find a commie. On the other hand we have good ol' boy Garion who has got me wondering whose lawn he's planning on burning a cross on tonight??? I just bet he a closet gay basherand anti abortion rights kind of guy but it makes me wonder what latent fires are burning there. Show me a loud mouth red neck cracker and I'll show you a NeoNazi. Probably would vote for Attila the Hun given the chance and maybe ol' MaxEdison would join him.
Just in case you think I'm letting myself off easy you'd be wrong. I have my own particular forms of bias or bigotry. I hate and despise ignorance and stupidity and I'm none too fond of Muslims and/or Islam although I'm somewhat prejudiced due to a couple of 7.62mm AK47 rounds
I took from a 15 year old Palestinian many years ago and it has left me with an abiding mistrust of all things Islamic. My personal bias states that all Muslim immigration or even visits should be halted until further notice - like never. I freely admit to this prejudice and must guard myself against it everyday because I know it's wrong. I like many Arabs and Muslims as individuals; it's as a class I mistrust them. Don't ever believe that Islam is a religion of peace as many of its proponents would have you believe. In fact it's a religion of contradictions
in which Christians and Jews are to be given respect and in the next breath states that all non-believers or non-Muslims are Infidels and are to be converted or failing that, destroyed. Having been to Egtpt, Syria, Iraq and Iran I know
that Muslims feel that since we are Infidels they do not have to keep their word to us whether it's to maintain a treaty or a promise of anyother sort.

by mlkiely

In Canada we have two nations one that actually observes the rules of democracy and fair play and another that has managed to corrupt the parliament with political appointments and partisan votes.Liberals like having a monarchy only they have out lived thier usefulness and need to be made accountable.Canadians need to decide on economic reason not provincial ideologies Quebec cannot continue to act like a spoiled child who wants to live at home for free but when asked to pay thier share they threaten to leave home. Well Quebec it is time to move out with your childish ideologies and I am certain you will discover Canada will be better off for shunning the politics of corruption and deceit.

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