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Does TechRepublic Have An Opinion?

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I want to know what you people at TechRepublic have to say on this very HOT topic??

My topic Ageism, in fact both my topics on ageism, have produced one of the highest and most stimulating responses from a massive number of TechRepublic Forum members. I am incredibly impressed by this, not to mention the hundreds of e-mails I have received.

BUT, we have not received any indication of what the TechRepublic folk think on this very important issue.

Why not? And what do the people who run TechRepublic think about the issue of ageism in IT.

I would expect some sort of response, after all TechRepublic makes it's living from IT and, to some extent, us forum members.

Robb

36 replies

by smorty71

To be honest, it seemed like an obvious attempt to start a controversial topic rather than address an issue, especially since you wanted people to think that you were a young IT worker.

Kind of like the very easy (and tiresome), Linux vs. Microsoft or Apple vs. Microsoft debates. Very easy to get people riled up; however, there is rarely any significant takeaway from it.

So I would prefer substantial or informative over "HOT" any day.

I normally wouldn't critique a thread; however, you asked.

by oz_media

I figured even I would refrain from that slinging match, you just get tired of it after a while.

But I think THIS topic puts me off even more. Kinda self indulgent, even for a guy like me. :)

Perhaps it was just all the closed ended comments in the first discussion that turned me off. Just an invitation to watch someone support a point.

As for it being a HUGE discussion, obviously the poster hasn't seen too many political discussions on TR. 650 posts isn't even a dent on this community.

by maxwell edison

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....for a slight joke or two. (Which went over the heads of many people)

And I'm with you; a big discussion isn't really big until it starts pushing 2000.

by jck

robb's action reminds me somewhat of what used to happen on BBSes and the early internet a lot, when it was mainly posting boards, email, newsgroups, and PowWow and IRC...when guys would pose as girls to get other guys to chat.

I had a friend who was a writer that did the same thing. His intent was to write about what guys really look for in relationships and he posed as a 30-something woman. Well even though his intentions were good for doing a sort of human interest type piece, his means of getting the research was a bit off-center.

He ended up talking a lot to this one guy and it stayed totally plutonic. Well, ended up the guy was a millionaire and wanted to meet "her". My friend cut off the communications pretty abruptly. About 3 months later, the millionaire actually flew into town to find the woman.

So...even though your purpose was valid, the means of which you took to get them by presenting yourself *here* as a young man was not what would have earned you credibility amongst your peers.

Telling the employer you're younger to get proof that age discrimination is one thing...lying to those you're reporting it to compromises belief of your results.

by Jay Garmon

Disclaimer time: no one staffer or editor speaks for TechRepublic, and as a rule, the organization takes no formal position on debate topics. TechRepublic is an impartial referee here, serving only to enforce our terms of service.

That said, I, as an individual, do have an opinion, which does not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of the staff, management, or shareholders of TechRepublic or CNet networks.

(You can see why we rarely weigh in.)

As to ageism, I don't agree with it, but I'm sure it occurs. However, what I'm unclear on is how often ageism is an intended tactic, or merely a side effect. In most of my conversations with IT pros and hiring managers, the bottom-line issue is return on investment. Hiring "experienced" IT pros is more expensive, plain and simple, and in most shops, the additional cost doesn't return equivalent value.

That isn't to say that older IT pros with years of time in the industry are less valuable. But very often, the situation comes down to this: an IT pro with twenty years experience will limit your network downtime to, let's say, one hour a month. An IT pro with three years experience will limit your downtime to five hours per month. The twenty year pro will cost you twice what the three-year pro will. Are the four fewer hours of downtime worth double the cost. You can fiddle with the numbers, but the equation is essentially the same.

Experience costs money. Instances where experience is worth the extra cost are less common than the contrary. This is true in any idustry.

The opposite side of this argument, however, is continuity. Experience is more valuable within the same organization. In most cases, it's more worthwhile to keep your existing people and increase their pay than to hire someone newer and cheaper. A netadmin that knows every nook and cranny of your system, every balky desktop and touchy router, every legacy naming convention and jury-rigged storage solution, IS worth more. Unfortunately, this is not an advantage when being hired, it is merely an advantage when negotiating a raise. Moreover, business managers who don't know IT (or business, for that matter) often fail to grasp this value--or realize it too late.

Of course, that starts us down the outsourcing road again, which has been beaten to death.

As an aside, I tend to think publicly traded companies are especially vulnerable to this kind of self-destructive shortterm thinking. I and a buddy of mine who's working on his PhD in economics (far smarter than I am) have talked about this at length: the constant pressure to produce a positive earnings report every three months creates a culture of shortterm gains versus longterm losses. It doesn't matter if they're destroying their longterm prospects, so long as they "hit their number" this quarter. That kind of thinking tends to value price over quality, to think tactically instead of strategically, to treat every twitter of a daily trend line as a reason to panic, all of which leads to a bipolar management style of wild exuberance over insignificant success and desperate paranoia over every mild setback.

One of the many impacts of this "quarterly crush" is to undervalue experience, and replace it (or not hire it) based on cost. So, in summary, blame stupid stock-option-hostage corporati for the unemployed aged (which is ironic, as so many of them are aged themselves).

by oz_media

And one I agree with for the most part.

It is interesting to finally get the views of Tech Republic and CNet so clearly laid out on thier behalf by thier Public Relations representative.

My own views were quite scattered though as I am 36 and face both sides of the coin when seeking contracts of making proposals. I'm not really too young, I'm not really too old, but then again, I lack the strength of neither being a young buck nor a seasoned pro.

Kinda like AC/DC's Ride on,
"I ain't too young to realize
That I ain't too old to try."

SO I figured I'd sit on the fence for the most part on that one.

But again, thank you for expressing CNet and TechRepublic's views onthe issue of ageism. ;)

by black panther

It's amazing also how different people have a different perspective on what is too old.

I hear school-children saying someone who's 30 is old!

I hear 70 + year olds telling 40 year old's they are young!

I wonder if the person doing the selection for a new position was 50 + they would have a different opinion to say a 30 year old?

who knows.... :)

by jck

I know for a fact what the thought process is with management where I last worked dealing with older employees.

Part of it is cost. Yes, experienced personnel draw higher salaries than recent MBA grads.

However, another factor is longevity. When a corporation puts a manager, director, or officer in place from outside the organization, they don't want to get someone who has a career aspiration of 2-3 years because they're waiting for their retirement account to grow another 8 percent before they can retire.

The same probably goes for network personnel as well, since you don't want to put someone in a long-term position that is probably only going to work short term.

by maxwell edison

In today's job market, at least if you look at it from my reality (and yes, reality is different from person to person), whether someone is 22 or 52, it has absolutely no bearing on that person's potential longevity. Either could stay with the company 20 days, 20 months or 20 years. And not all older people demand the higher "experienced" salaries, although some can, and do, get it. It's all relative to what both the company and the potential employee are looking for, and from their respective perspectives.

But I would bet on myself against a young buck any day in one regard. I would be better, 99.9 percent of the time, at convincing a company that I could help them achieve their desired end results better than someone 30 years younger. And I could better justify any salary request I might have as a result.

In a simplistic analogy, if you wanted to hire someone to help your company produce widgets (in whatever capacity), and you expected to make at least $10 profit, give or take, on each widget, and you based your success on that "per widget" average, who would you hire? A young buck who would do the job for $15 per hour, and you could be assured of making $10 on each widget, or another person (any age) who could absolutely convince you that he or she could deliver on a promise to increase your profits to $15 per widget, even though that person wants $50 per hour, and the increased "per unit" price would easily pay for -- and then some -- the higher salary? The correct answer is the latter. You'd pay the $50 per hour instead of $15. (And no, if I couldn't help a company in such a way, I wouldn't claim that I could just to get a job. And yes, there are certain parameters to remain within, depending on the circumstances.) Compare that to the young guy with technical speak, degrees, and certifications up the ying-yang, but absolutely no business savvy, and who couldn't begin to see or explain the bigger picture, much less improve it.

Almost all business people think this way, regardless of the drivel you may read in these threads to the contrary. And that's why I would bet on myself against a younger person any day of the week. (And no, you don't need age to understand it.) A lot of older folks have the experience to not only understand these things, but to articulate them and to put them into action. It's rare to see a younger person look past his certifications and pay check, and have the ability to see that bigger picture. The typical younger guy wants a company to give him a job, while a lot of older folks approach a company with something to give them. And therein lies the huge difference.

by mxyzyptylk1

1) Most successful projects only last at most 2-3 years.
2) So do many CFOs, CIOs and CEOs.
3) The idea is NOT to build a expensive corporate resource so it takes 3 years to figure out where the rocks are. Under SOX, needing an experienced guide through your systems is just begging for an audit writeup.
4) Many companies still take the attitude that you rotate knowledge workers, you don't fix them in place until they're bored silly. Changing jobs within an organization is still considered to be motiviational.
5) And most managers are thoroughly familiar with some young turk trying to hold them up for more money to finish the project.

by oz_media

I hadn't read any replies, just turned of by the stupid topic, sure is a brilliant deduction the original poster has reached. Make me wonder how big a bowl of Corn Flakes he'd eaten THAT morning in order to ponder such a topic and reach his conclusion.

But after a quick read through, I thought the one title "You're a F*cking idiot" was pretty funny. Someone who hasn't been around here long. :D

I think the same can be said to any of us at somepoint in time, and usually has in most cases, it was just a funny title to read from a frustrated peer.

As for your own comments, WHY would anyone in thier 30's WANT to know what it's like to be 50? We're too busy trying to be 18 again!

But seeing as most of my friends are in thier 50's or late 40's, fearing 50, I have a pretty good idea of what to expect...sweet f-all, just another year older and grumpier.

I'm gonna make a great old man, better have retired to my hermit cabin in the woods by then or THIS province is in for an earful! :D

Can't wait.

by maxwell edison

.
I read somewhere that everyone, somewhere along their life, establishes a "mental age" that will stay with them until the day they die. (And it could be older or younger than they really are.) Sure, the body gets a little, shall I say, less flexible, and it develops a few more creaks along the ol' hinges, but the mind stays at that person's "mental age". I've never seen any test to determine what one's mental age might be, but I believe mine is around 32, even though my body is 20 years older.

My mom, for example, never left her early twenties. She was born at the dawn of the Roaring 20s (in 1919), and I remember as teenagers we would marvel at this late-forties woman doing the Charleston in the living room. (Do you know the Charleston?) And even though she's 85 today, I still see that 25 year old in her eyes and in her demeanor, even though her body can't do the Charleston any longer. (But she would, if she could.)

So there ya' go. I don't really care how old I am or get, I'll always be about 32 in my mind.

by oz_media

Yes I know it VERY well. When I was much younger, my mum was a ballroom dance instructor, and a kid from the war, so I was tossed around in the studio for years.

My DAD was a Teddy Boy (velvet lapels and all), my brother and sister are 10 years older than me and I was just a kid growing up un the wrong era.

But I know MOST ballroom dances, some tap, and have been in musical stage productions most of my life, singing and dancing like ther's no tomorrow. God I am glad I out grew THAT, as you say bones get brittle and injuries don't seem to heal the same anymore (even at my young age).

But it sure is cool when you are at a wedding or something where you can ballroom dance, talk about an easy pick up, for some reason the most laughed at form of dancing is also the biggest babe magnet. Even Carlos Santana brought some Salsa dancing back to the club scene, again talk about an easy pick up!

by cmichael

Lot of truth in that methinks. I agree with George. "Hey! Where did the last 40 years go?" I still feel 18.

by black panther

The Australian Government has indicated they would like us to work to 70 + instead of the current retirement age of 65 -- it keeps going up and up ( as they are looking at getting rid of the old age pension and hope people invest in their own personal superannuation which they will have to live on )

But in saying this I havn't seen any evidence that it will be easier to be employed in your old age :)

by oz_media

These days company's look for the right FIT, even with vendors and supoprt. Fit seems far more important than anything else in a world where companies are seeing a high turnover rate. This rate is most likely due to a younger and more eager workforce, unwilling to stay put and excited by grandiose job offers of future wealth.

by deepsand

Noticing the flurry of activity today at "Ageism? Good Idea?", 3 things immediately became obvious. The majority of the newcomers:

1) Did not read the posts prior to their's;
2) Did not review your profile before posting; and,
3) Purport to be "older" techies.

Makes one stop & consider that, since these "oldsters" failed to do any preliminary investigation before spouting off, perhaps many of us do have an age related diminished capacity for critical analysis!

by bhunsinger

not wanting to be bothered- 80 posts-200 posts to read before you give your opinion, which is whatthe poster asked for... at least on his face

by dmg999

I agree with your points but it was not only the older techies that responded before putting their brains into gear - the 'younger' respondants were just as trigger happy.
Many older techies have learnt to be cagey with their years of experience and have just let the thread go under its own momentum.

by black panther

Having two ears and one tongue, we should listen twice as much as we speak. - Turkish (on discretion)

The one who understands does not speak; the one who speaks does not understand.- Chinese (on paradox)

Don't talk unless you can improve the silence. - unknown

Not everything you hear is good for talk. - Japanese (on gossip)

When you go to a donkey's house, don't talk about ears. - Jamaican

:)

by deepsand

[i]before[/i] posting.

You are, of course, correct in that the tendency to rush to judgement knows no favorites; it's part of the human condition. In fact, the argument can be made that such is a genetic trait, one which helped our progenitors survice & procreate.

And, although irrational man often errs in his judgements, we must remember that, without his irrational side, his achievements would be few indeed.

Emotion is the wind which fills our sails; logic, the hand upon the tiller.

by maxwell edison

.
Mental Age, in my context, has nothing to do with mental development, as is the case with the I.Q reference. (But that was a great link, by the way.)

It' more as how one views life. Some people are old fogies well before their time, while others are more like giddy teenagers forever.

Maybe hard to explain, and I probably used the wrong term.

by jck

If you're looking for per hour labor, cheapest is best.

If you're looking for an IT manager to oversee multi-site operation of multiple IT teams and support centers, you don't go with new college grad even if it's with an MBA.

And generally when they're looking for the IT manager or even large-scale operations IT shift supervisor, they're not looking for someone who's gonna be there 20 days or 20 months. They basically, in layman's terms, want some sucker who'll work him/herself to death for the next 20 years to keep the heat off themselves, even though goals are ridiculous and staff is undernumbered for tasks.

As for how people approach a company...maybe a college student just wants that job...however, it doesn't take being 50+ to be one who looks to a company for what they can give them. I just spent 10 years looking for a company to give me a job I could move up in, learn, teach them things, and have a really great symbiosis. And I'm under 40.

My analysis: they don't exist anymore.

At this point, I went to work in "public sector", i.e.- government. Here, I do my work and that is what gets me annual raises and to keep my job. Getting rid of me takes an act of God or a budget cut...and with the population almost having doubled here in the past 10 years, I don't think money will be short here.

When I was in private sector, they didn't give a crap if you did your work right as long as it got done sufficiently. Shortcuts in development and testing, and finding the loopholes in contracts were what they looked to for making money in projects, then to cut staff late in the project to save even more.

Basically, the capitalistic mentality of the mid and upper level management in the United States is what has kept the industrial sector from growing as fast as it should and producing quality products of which it is capable. When the CEOs of the top 100 corporations in this country can pull down close to $250M in cash bonuses alone in a single year ...how can you expect the industrial base to grow as fast as it should with that much money leaving the sector exclusively for the personal benefit of 100 people in one year??

As for what corporations will do most of the time...it's not about per item return averages. It's about ROI. Return on investment. Because if your young buck can make 6 at $10 per item and cost $15 an hour...and your old man can make 6 in one hour at $15 profit and cost $50 an hour...young buck = 300% ROI, old man = 80% ROI...young buck = $45 ROI...old man = $40 ROI...old man loses, even at the same performance level either way. He has to be more cost-effective to win. Not more profitable per widget.

A lot of companies don't look long term. Someone mentioned elsewhere (I believe Trivia Geek) that the mentality in corporate America is now pretty much about making that quarter expectation or "goal".

He is dead on.

Ultimate goal in management nowadays: minimize expenditures, maximize profits, maximize bonuses.

Worker bees are expendable to most management. Remember that on your next interview, folks.

by maxwell edison

Different people have different realities. If you look for yours, you'll find it. If I look for mine, I'll find that as well. It all depends on what we choose to look for.

by maxwell edison

My widget analogy was purely symbolic, but the underlying principles will always be the same. And at times, the particular "end product" isn't a product at all, but maybe productivity or efficiency. The widget analogy only served to illustrate that if you can convince a company that you can help them improve their process, their product, or their profit, they will be "all ears", and if you can deliver, you'll be worth your weight in gold.

And I like my reality a lot better than yours, so I'll just stay where I am.

by oz_media

I just found that info while searching for related articles.

I agree 100% Max, you're only as old as you feel/act and many people just find an age and stick with it, regardless of the chronological clock.

by deepsand

how overly emotional, to the point of being unduly uncivil, so many of our older colleagues were.

by sleepin'dawg

:^O ROTFLMAO And here I thought you were one of those laid back left coasters into whale watching and tree hugging with an occasional shot at the ponies. Go figure. Turns out you've been a closet West Virginian, all this time.

Dawg ]:)

by oz_media

And who said it was a family wedding? Buy hey, incest is best if you keep it in the family.

You know exactly what I mean though, you cheeky old man, all those dull boring formalities before parties begin...at least I can cut a rug.

I am into the whale watching (hard to miss really) and respecting/doing my part to protect the environment, but I'm not about to chain myself to a tree in front of a bunch of loggers with today's equipment. Those guys go through a forest SO fast, it's really impressive to watch them earn a living, and the 'scars' are reduced a great deal these days by heavier regulations. I wouldn't protest and put a friend out of business, but I'd like to see a reduction in export volume though, enough's enough.

by rapell

the old had their chance, where are the young supposed to get jobs?? let us retain a few as giudes to lead the small ones, and fire the rest.

by deepsand

We outnumber the young; and, we know where all the secrets are kept.

We control the vertical, we control the horizontal, ....

Resistance is futile.

by deepsand

[i]"Better to remain silent, and be thought the fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."[/i]

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