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How do we win the war against terror?

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Here are some starting points:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010920-8.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Terror#Criticisms_of_the_.22War_on_Terrorism.22

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/ID/5865710/

I'll leave it up to Max to redress any balance issue. I wasn't aiming to push one way or the other, just start a discussion if anyone cares.

But there is no doubt a huge element of people around the world that, for whatever reason (and I assume there are many), want to attack other people's basic way of life, their freedoms, destroy those ways and freedoms and change their enemy into beleiving in their own way.

I wasn't trying to establish a balance either way, just ask some questions:

How do we fight the war?

How do we win? Is that possible, or (unlike an absolute victory) should winning be measured in degrees of effectiveness?

Do traditional military methods play a part and if so what? Do they further the cause "for victory" or possibly against it?

At what point can diplomacy come in? Or is there effectively no point where it can prove useful, due to fundamental differences between the parties?

19 replies

by jmgarvin

I think the bulk of the problem is this:

A) If we leave the entire Middle East will probably degrade into civil war
B) If we stay Iraq will probably degrade into civil war pushing Shite against Sunni across the Middle East

I think we need to do this:
A) Pull out the heavy weapons and maintain a presence as a police force
B) Respond and HELP the populous. Ensure that the shop keeper is able to keep his shop open and is not being harrassed...
C) Intellegence needs to be used more than brute force. Find out what is going on and start social engineering...

The problem is that you don't win over the populous with tanks, but with life-style....give them a good life and they'll be on board quickly.

by jamesrl

As much as everyone hated Saddam, his regime counterbalanced Iran. That is perhaps one of the reasons that the Arab partners in the first Gulf War stopped short of taking over Iraq. Now until Iraq rebuilds its army, there is a power vacuum.

As far as civil war in Iraq goes, I'm afraid its already started and it will continue with or without the presense of the US. Indeed, a couple of things could happen. Some foreign insurgents may go home or they may decide to take sides in the civil war. There is already Sunni versus Shia violence going on. Today 150 people were kidnapped in broad daylight from a government ministry.

There aren't nearly enough soldiers to be a police force. The only hope is to get enough Iraqis trained to do it themselves, but this has proven problematic.

Social engineering on a national scale? This has been tried before and failed. Certainly providing jobs will help lower the number of insurgents, but not eliminate the hardcore element.

I'm not for a moment suggesting I have any wonderful ideas for a way forward.

James

by tony hopkinson

The terrorist's advantage is mobility.

Any time they sit still and try to defend or to attack en masse they get creamed.
So they don't.

Stop attacking their support base ( the local population) subvert them. Concentrate on cutting off their resources suppliers, money et al.
They will attempt to extort what they need to continue the fight from the softest targets, that's the people they are hiding amongst.

If there's an Ali every street spying on them because they robbed him to buy bullets, you just nailed their foot to the floor big style. Then you can send in the marines and have them stick a large combat boot up their asses.

Be aware it will take a while and you will get fools calling for direct action, but every time we make the local population's life harder, we makes the terrorist's easier.

Once they have to admit so called armed struggle can't win, then maybe you can have a dialog.

by delbertpgh

Winning the war on terror... well, first, we have to stop confusing the war on Iraq with the war on terror.

Disengaging ourselves from Iraq will be tricky, because we can create even bigger problems if we screw that up. I believe we need to disengage primarily because the Iraq government doesn't seem to be taking its political role seriously, and half the armed forces and police of Iraq are infiltrated by death squads who settle Sunni/Shiite religious disputes in their spare time. We can win every street fight we get into, but we can't see an end to it. It's not a formula where we can win. We need to back off and let the Iraqis settle it in their own way, which means until they are tired of seeing their blood pour out. We'll probably have to go back in at some point in the future, too. The British had to intervene five times between WW1 and WW2.

To win the war on terror, or any war, you need objectives that match your problem and lead to a desirable end condition. In the war on terror, the opposition is not a country, but it sometimes takes cover behind a state (like in Afghanistan) or is supported by a state under the table. Most of our problem comes from Islamic crazy young men who feel the mood of the times, and feel they have to get out and fight enemies; and a mood in Islam in general, that says their religion is under attack, and extreme reactions are blessed by God. Until the youth of Islam (the most popular religion in the world, I believe) cool down, and get their minds off religion and armed struggle, we'll have a problem.

Our objectives (I say) are to outlast this movement, destroy effective fighting cells whereever they develop, protect ourselves, and to try to speed up the end of the movement. It will take 20 or 30 or 50 years or more, because this is a civilizational problem, not something you can blow apart with enough shots in exactly the right places. You can't shoot all the young men in all the Muslim countries. We need the national will to keep up this slow long fight; a military suited to the fighting requirements; spies and intelligence machinery; allies and international support; and the ideals and moral courage that made America a leader that the rest of world civilization could get behind, as we generally did through the 20th century.

But, as long as the war in Iraq is running hot, we have more opposition and more troubles in fighting the real war on terror.

by betterhands

i don't remember who said it, but the point was brought up that "terror" in this case is a tactic--like "ambush". you can't win the war on terror just like you couldn't win a war on ambush. hopefully one day, followers of the big 3 (not talking auto companies) will realize how intangible the concept of spirituality really is and that there is no dude up in the sky hoping that one particular race of people get a certain tract of land they feel was promised to them. thousands of years of blood and anguish for something so silly.

by maxwell edison

....was posted by our wise and intelligent friend, ProtiusX.

https://www.techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=8&threadID=170259&messageID=1736233

I, too, have always maintained that the "war of terrorism" should have always been called the "war against Islamo-Fascism", because one cannot wage a war against a tactic (terrorism), but rather a clearly defined enemy. (Many people object to my terminology.)

https://www.techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=8&threadID=193542&messageID=1997831

My guess is that President Bush may have considered such a thing, but in order to maintain some semblance of geopolitical stability and not appear as though he was embarking on a religious crusade, he chose "war on terror" instead. Personally speaking, I think he made a mistake by doing so.

by delbertpgh

The problem with Islam is not fascism. People like to call it that, but religious lunacy and fascism live on different streets. Even though, in the end, both their sponsors jabber loud nonsense and shoot people in the heads.

Our struggle is against terror. It's not terror as a tactic, but terror directed against us as the main means of combat, by stateless groups of fanatics. If it was coming from one or two countries, it would be easy to fight. We slapped down Afghanistan pretty well, and took care of our problem that they nursed in their back yard. Most of the terrorists will be harder to locate and isolate, though.

Identifying your problem as "Islamo Fascism" is a way of shutting off thought. (Like, "if you hated Hitler, then you gotta hate these new fascists, too.") I don't think we should have any problem with primitive religious punks like the Taliban, so long as they don't mess with us. Turn their country back over to them, let 'em run the place like a medieval jail. If their people want it differently, they can throw the Taliban out themselves. What do we believe we're going to do, change the way 30 million people think and live day to day?

by mjd420nova

First, on Sept. 11, 2001, I would have closed the borders and stop all international flights. Get that fence and security zone built. Then think about how to stop those who are here illegally from getting out without proof of who they are. Next, implement a national ID program for those who must exit or enter the country. Amnesty can only be effective after the borders are sealed. Sign them up, document them and their dependants, photos, DNA and fingerprints. Then give them a social security card and let them start paying into the system they have sucked the life out of. Only then should we think about what liberties will be restored after such an event. And to think that we could have and should have stopped those who perpetrated the attacks before they actually happened.

by delbertpgh

Clearly you'd rather fight a war against immigration than against terrorism, just as Bush would rather fight a war against Iraq than as something as difficult to grapple as terror.

by jmgarvin

A) The wall is stupid. If you live in a border state (like I do), you are well aware there are tunnels and easy geographical entry points.

B) The National ID program is pointless. How do you tag illegals?

C) How do you get illegals to "sign up" and offer their dependants up along with photos and DNA?

What you are suggesting is unrealistic. Rather than pay millions into pointless bureaucracy, why don't on real solutions?

by maxwell edison

[i]"We're not fighting a war on "terrorism." Terrorism is merely a tactic of war. We're also not fighting a war against Islam. It's time to recognize just whom we are fighting, what we are up against. The enemy is Islamo-fascism. And that's just another way to say the enemy is fascism."[/i]

- Joseph Farah

(Joseph Farah is founder, editor and CEO of WND and a nationally syndicated columnist with Creators Syndicate. His latest book is "Taking America Back." He also edits the weekly online intelligence newsletter Joseph Farah's G2 Bulletin, in which he utilizes his sources developed over 30 years in the news business.)

Article: What I mean by 'Islamo-fascism'

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31315

It sounds to me like it's you who is "shutting off thought", not me. I'm also, obviously, not alone in my thinking.

by delbertpgh

If Farah's facts were at all reliable (factual facts) they would have been repeated ad nauseum by Bush, Rumsfield, Rice, etc. This "Yossef Bodansky" must be some unreliable guy, like Chalabi's Curveball source.

Fascism is more about national pride. Fascism usually works against religion, or any other source of power in civil life, unless it is seen as some native expression of the Volk (and the preachers don't make trouble for the state.)

Calling religion based on God and religion based on the state the same thing, fascism, is not good thinking.

by maxwell edison

When you can't argue against a position, you attack the source. Regardless of any "source", it's a widely-used term by a lot of people. Besides, I didn't post the link for a "source", per se, but rather to provide an interesting and well-written article on the subject. How about addressing the article, not the "source"? To do any less is to put forth a weak argument.

Moreover, Fascism will have many different definitions (as it should), more than your "narrow" Nazi application.

In this case, and the issue that started our discussion, a clear enemy should be both defined and identified, and "terror" does not even come close.

It's interesting to see, however, that you agree with President Bush in this case, while I disagree.

by betterhands

checked out your link. not a good site to reference if you're trying to make a serious, objective point.

by delbertpgh

This will be dull reading for most people, because I'm going to argue about the facts and logic behind a magazine article of Max?s. I think the term "Islamo-Fascism" is nonsense.

Joseph Farah (of WorldNetDaily) starts from the supposed fact that Saddam supported al-Qaida for a full decade up to the year 2000, based on a book by one Yossef Bodansky. I've never heard of this Bodansky or his evidence before now. Bush, Cheney, and company were so desperate for justification for the Iraq war, I'm sure they would have brought up this guy and his evidence if there was any chance his story would stand. I?ve just got to conclude it didn?t. If Cheney wouldn?t bite, it must be worthless, because that man would swallow just about any crazy tale. And without an Al-Qaida/Iraq link, half of Farah?s argument has nothing to stand on.

Saddam did support terrorists for a while, mostly Palestinians fighting Israel. Looks to me like he did it in a half-&ssed way, like he was trying to get prestige within the Arab world, more than he wanted terrorists to conduct his national policy for him. Saddam always wanted to be the international big shot, to be a pan-Arab leader. But he never did support Al-Qaida, and Al-Qaida never supported him. Al-Qaida?s main enemies in the world were not the U.S., but secular Arab leaders. Al-Qaida figured the infidels could all go wallow in their own filth; what they wanted was an Islamic state of historic purity that would unite Arabs and restore Islam to the glory of the 10th century. Secular Arabs wanted to pursue their own petty dreams, imitating vile Westerners and their godless oversexed society, and leading the Arab people further astray. Al-Qaida wanted to redeem Muslims, and in particular Arabs, and more particularly, Sunni Arabs.

It?s Farah?s cultural egotism that makes him think that hating America was the most important thing on both Al-Qaida?s and Saddam?s minds. They were driven by their own purposes, and they didn?t need to look across the Atlantic Ocean for motivation. America didn?t unite these parties.

Farah goes on to say fascism is a form of socialism. There are similarities, but bigger differences. The biggest similarity is the way both try to exert total control over all phases of society, because they both want to shape a new breed of man, and they are both suspicious of any competing power within society. However, this doesn?t mean that fascism and socialism are identical. Fascism, as practiced by Hitler and Mussolini, and by imitator movements between the wars in France, Britain, Spain, and the United States, saw the West having lost its way and grown pathetic and weak under the administration of chicken-hearted governments, and its wealth dissipated by rich-living elites who drank and gambled and wasted society?s riches on personal pleasure. The argument had some force when all around there was massive unemployment, hyper inflation, and a worldwide depression. It was fun to blame people, and that was part of the fascist charm. The fascist prescription for national troubles was a strong nation, strong national purpose, people made strong by patriotism and a sense of national mission, and a charismatic leader who could make it all feel alive. Members of fascist parties became members of uniformed paramilitary groups, which made the members feel like they were doing something, and were impressive political symbols that were also tools of formidable political power, wielded by the leader. (Brown Shirts in Germany, Black Shirts in Italy and Britain, Silver Shirts in the U.S.)

The communists were much more interested in building a new man without greed or self-interest. Citizens? loyalty was ideally owed to a political-economic philosophy, not to a state. Private ownership of businesses was outlawed; under fascism, private property was never illegal, though business owners were often given close orders on how they had to run aspects of their business. The two movements had little in common but their total control philosophy of government. Both were hostile toward tradition, though fascism glorified many peasant ways, believing they were patriotic expressions of the people. Both were very suspicious of religion, and exercised tight control over churches, because they knew priests could create political resistance to their broad social agendas.

Islamists are interested in God, and in saving Islamic mankind by putting it back on the true path. Islam holds that religion belongs in every part of society, and that the state should govern by religious law. Mohammed was himself a businessman (a long-distance trader), but believed that business had a social mission, and also had to operate within the bounds of God?s plan. Mohammed also believed in jihad, struggle, but the big jihad was each man?s struggle against his own godlessness; the little jihad was the armed conflict with infidels, which was usually seen in defensive terms. (The terrorists we fight generally ignore the main part of the message in favor of armed struggle.) The ideal society, church, and government is seen as what existed in Arabia 1400 years ago.

Fascism generally puts a godless state above man, as an inspiration to him, that he may glorify it and himself by his sacrifice. Islamic crazies look backward over a thousand years for holy legends, which will redeem man and glorify God (and, in the interests of defending God and his people and the realm of the believers, lead them to war where they can be sacrificed in the purposes of God.) Both Islamic extremists and fascists think it is glorious going off the deep end in the name of their beliefs. So have done patriots and believers in many causes for the whole history of humankind. It doesn?t make them all fascists, though.

by onbliss

[u]What kinds[/u]
We need to list the different kinds of terrorisms.
[u]Who[/u]
Then list the different groups indulging in the various kinds of terrorism.
[u]Which[/u]
Then prioritize which kinds and groups we are going to tackle and [b]reduce[/b] the terrorist activities
[u]How[/u]
How is it going to be done? How are the domestic ones going to be addressed? How are the international ones going to be addressed? What sort of effort is required?
[u]When & Where[/u]
For international terrorism, for each kinds and groups, need to list when and where the terrorism is going to be fought.

To summarize in two words - "Improve our Understanding". Yeah I cheated it is three words. We need to improve our understanding on nature and reason for terrorisms, and then use the optimum tool.

2 cents.

by drowningnotwaving

The biggest message I get is that we need a lot more intelligence on what it is we're trying to do, to whom and how.

But I do know this:

* Irrespective of the reason, or the strategy currently existing, I think it is a fair comment to say that there is a lack of communication about that strategy and desired objective, to Joe and Joanne Public.

As an example:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20759846-2702,00.html

This seems to me to be a "hope" that something doesn't happen, rather than a clear strategy about why it should and how we'll all benefit.

And I am fairly sure that this is not an isolated example. Most of the communication seems to be around the "keep on sticking with us just 'because' ".

It seems that (with me included/jointly-accused) we can talk a lot about the why or why not we should or shouldn't be in Iraq at all, what we do/don't do with the prisoners or at what stage do we decide the govt has the credentials and resources to look after themselves, whatever that may mean.

But it does seem clear that there hasn't been a commensurate effort spent on educating / assuring the population that there is a clear strategy (albeit even an evolving strategy).

And it seems that the battle for the 'hearts and minds', so critical to the long-term effort, troop support and commitment, is reasonably floored if it hasn't started and stayed well at home, wherever that is.

Leadership, I think it's called. But with substance not just the cheer-squad.

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