How much to charge for database creation?

I sure you will get better answers comming this Monday, but here's my 2??.
First an 8 page template is not long at all, but it's only the start. You need to know up-front just how much Data that needs to be input initially. Get specifics, in writing. When you have all the information as to what they really need, (and realistic too.) You can then determin how much time you'll need. You can then base a figure on the time you estimate (that YOU need) to complete the first install. Keep in mind, Data bases are NEVER finished, but you can get them started. Again Document, Document, Document. And start that before you even start to build. As for your price, it will depend on what is a reasonable rate in your area. That I can't tell you. Remember, however, don't sell your-self short. If you intend to do a professional job (I would hope so) then you should be paid accordingly so. (ok, as a beginer, not on the high end, that's for sure, but your time IS valuable, at least to you.)
I hope you'll get more specific answers, I'm sure you will. Good luck, and Welcome. -d

how many users?
how much data?
how many clients?

I work for a nonprofit group, and we have a database application that consists of basic client information and evaluations. Its a nightmare. It was created by people who were not database developers..rather they were web developers. So the web front is pretty cool..the rest is a disaster. It has grown into a huge monster. Once my bossess seen what they could have they just kept throwing in more and more.

Is this a large group, who do they report to, are they accoutnable to the government for their data etc?

I'n over in Ireland, so i presume we have different legal situation, but make sure you keep legal issues in mind as well..data protection, security etc.

I'm no pro myself and have never done a gig such as this..but its one i'm interested in..let me know how ya get on with it will ya.

Without knowing what skill you have, I'd say it's a pretty bold move to agree to build a database for someone. This is NOT an easy task to do properly, and please don't take this the wrong way, but I've yet to see a clean database built by someone with no training. I've spent thousands of hours cleaning up systems that I inherited from self-taught desingers, and the biggest problem has usually been a complete absence of model and documentation.

As for cost--hard to say. I'd estimate at least 100 hours for just the model. After that, it's a matter of determining what needs to be created, estimating work time based on that, then another 20-40 hours of testing. I'd also plan on maintenance window of at least 6 months, since most often there are cases that don't meet the standard identified in the model, and of course, a number of issues can arise that mess up the system, including changes to group permissions on the server, patches, upgrades, etc. All that should either be included or specifically excluded from you contract.

Since it's a non-profit, I'd go for the minimum cost you're comfortable with and claim huge experience points, probably requesting a letter of recomendation from the non-profit upon satisfactory completion. In the long run, a very happy customer will be worth more than a single paycheck.

Be prepared to be chained to this thing forever.

Don't forget about the time you'll spend training their staff. Every time they hire a new person you'll probably be expected to train them. And if they hire the village idiot, you'll be fielding phone calls from them every single time they open the database. Make sure your current employer is OK with this.

I don't know what to tell you to charge for this, but it needs to be put down in writing (and signed) before you do any work for them.

Oh, by the way, make sure that they understand that they'll need to regularly upgrade all their copies of Acce$$ and pay you to port the database to the new version.

Sound complicated? It is, and these are just a few of the issues.

FWIW, I completely agree with Mavyn. I'm just wrapping up a complete re-write of a multi-user Access database that was developed by a non-IT person. The original version worked, but barely. The data design was a disaster. We held it together with paper clips, tape and twine, but eventually we got the "Request from Hell" and the original design could not be modified to accomodate it.

Be sure that the end-users only have the run-time version of Access installed. This version will allow them to use the database, but they won't be able to open it in design mode and change the database structure. Generally a full-blown copy of Access in the hands of someone who "just wants to help" or is "just curious" results in catastrophe.

Also make sure that they completely understand what the words "reliable backup" mean.

I really don't want to ruin your day, but...

A database job is never just a database job. There are screens and programs for them to input and change data, and also the reports to pull the data out. Did they tell you want these are or do the have people who knows how to do these (I doubt, as they are asking you to set up the database.)

You should figure out a reasonable hourly rate to charge them. Go in and talk to them about what about the data entry/edits and reports. Then explain that these can be time consuming, and tell them the bad news: your hourly rate.

Don't charge them too much.
It will be your first database design, so it's most probably that you will mess up it.
Good database design is something that you will achieve only with practice and experience.
In the meantime, take advantage of your position and learn from your mistakes.

Access is very user friendly, although powerful and complex. Given eight pages of input forms, spend a LOT of time building your relational model. The tighter your relational design, the easier the programming when you're actually creating the database. Sounds like a big job. Good luck!

Peter Haug

The first step is to buy liability insurance; you can get $1 million for ~$200-300 if you are not doing medical work.

The next step is to design a real database and NOT just automate the paper forms. That is the problem with being self-taught -- lack of theory leads to bad code.

I saw a horrible example of this a few years ago with a medical relief agency that had gotten fee help from a volunteer programmer. He violated 1NF to make writing a pull-down list easier.

I'm going to be plain up front about this, and if I'm overly blunt, I apologize.

Based on the little background provided, I think you're in way over your head. Your signature says you're in database administration; but then you say you work in a non-IT job daily; sounds like that's what you're calling yourself based on this gig. If you haven't had at least a couple of college level courses on database design, then you're probably not going to do a very good job of it.

8 word documents do not comprise a complete system analysis (BTW, System Analysis is another good college class to take). As a rough over view, you'll need to know input requirements (User interface, are they doing direct entry or from paper documents, are they scanning forms into the system, do they take voice and picture files, etc), output requirements (screens, files, printouts, etc), storage needs, fields, records, metadata, access and processing speeds, volume of users, volume of records, most importantly do you understand what the business REALLY is trying to record and manage? Do you know anything about normalization of a database and reasons and conditions to justify violating those principles?

Have you even built a database before, even for your own use? If not, you're in for a world of hurt, and will probably harm the non-profit more than you benefit them.

All this sounds very negative. I'm not saying you can't do it, and do it right; I am saying the odds are against it.

As far as payment is concerned; you might consider doing the job gratis, or for a tax-deductable donation.

This type of job is bread and butter (at the moment).

By why choose Access? It's not he easiest thing to develop with and it is definitely not the best product when it come to multi-user access, backing up or future proofing.

I suggest you have a look at some of the other products out there - buy is often better than build.

If you are keen to stick to Microsoft I suggest looking at using a SharePoint Services Form Library and using InfoPath to design the user end form. The server side comes as standard with Windows 2003 Server and InfoPath is part of Office 2003 (so they may already have licenses). Plus it?s pretty easy to extend and add to when their requirements change ? Note: this usually happens just before they go-live.

Couple of tips when doing this type of work:
1. Document everything - even if nobody else ever reads what you write, you will need it. By the time you finish you'll never remember why/how you did half the things you did.
2. Prototype and demo - as often as possible show your customers what you've done and how it works. The sooner you get feedback the better and it keeps them as involved as possible.
3. Estimates - plan every step of you development, put a number of days against each and every item on the list then double it for contingency. Even those of us who do lots of development are still guessing when it comes to estimates so do not sell you're self short.
4. Rates - very difficult to say, call some recruitment agencies to find out how much developers are charging in your area and then take you're lead from that. Don't undersell yourself though, you don't want to give up your weekends for less than you could make flipping burgers!

Good luck, hope you enjoy the experience.

Assuming you end up going thru with performing the work. You need to be mentally prepared for the fact that you will now be bound at the hip to those people. They will be on the phone in a hot minute for any little thing that doesn't seem to be working... even things that aren't at all related to your database app. Because they are not tech-savvy enough to know what's causing the problem... so they'll try to be tricky and call you saying they have a problem related to the database to make you feel obligated to help them... then it'll turn-out to be something like a setup issue on the individuals terminal... so, rightfully you'll want to back away from helping them on that... but since they're a non-profit I'm guessing they'll then figure out some way to try to guilt-trip you into stickin' around on the phone to help them figure what THEY did wrong somewhere.

ALSO... I'm in agreement BIG-TIME with some of the other posters in that you MUST have a concrete, etched-in-stone list of features and functions which you are being paid to engineer into this system. THEY WILL TRY to introduce "feature-creep" into the equation to get more out of their money. Don't let them. Also... that whole thing of constantly showing them how the pieces of the app are coming along is great for customer buy-in. And it prevents you from straying too far away from what they want and have envisioned in their minds eye. AND... when you have this preview sessions and they want to work in some feature-creep, you'll be like "OK, but it'll cost ya." That right there tends to make them more seriously weigh the value of a new feature they wanna throw out there.

And for heaven's sake... DO NOT USE ACCESS! Use SQL Server (2000 or above). Access DB's in a multi-user shared environment seem to be prone to occasional corruption.

Big point I wanna get across is that this will not be a job where "I'm done, goodbye!" Uh-uh... nooooooo. They're gonna have their claws hooked on you for a long damn time after you're finished with them.

Small non-profit? How many people are going to be doing data input at the same time, one, two, more than 5? Is it even going to be a networked application? Is this going to be a simple data input and report application they want you to create or is this going to be an office automation solution that requires many different data input forms into different data tables and using complex queries to create many types of data reports. Without knowing the true scale of the data job it?s hard to know what database tool to recommend or how much you should charge.
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I am recommending MS Access only because I have used it in a school office for the past 6 years without any major problem. Do basic maintenance (defrag) on the hard drive, run the ?compact and repair? routine in MS Access every once in a while, back-up the data on a daily basis, and you should not have any problems with a ?corrupted? data file.

Not to fault anyone, but I think we're losing sight of the fact that the client is a small non-profit with *NO* I.T. staff and probably less-than-minimal budget. Even saddling them with a simple Access database is going to be tricky because the client will probably have difficulty hiring anyone to do low-cost support.

I'd be willing to bet that the client thinks this will cost a couple hundred bucks, tops. Afterall, a copy of MS Office can be had for that much, right?

Considering any flavor of SQL Server in this scenario would be doing them no favors.

seriously, ask for $750. tell them it's as low as you can go. get on a monthly maintenance retainer, say $100+, and keep working on that database until you know it inside and out. if you want to keep this up, you'll need to learn other databases. all the different sql flavors out there and oracle, for starters. there are many others that are popular with each industry or company. i don't know what you make in your non-IT job, but dba's can make some serious cash, ask around.
why $750? nobody threw a number out. they keep telling you how to actually go about the project but not what to charge. so is it too much? too little? between that and a million bucks, how close is he? tell ananse what he wants to know. he doesn't need any other help, he's got a line of bloggers waiting to do the job for him.

Dear ananse and Others,

I. What Minstrel Mike has pointed out (to
get the Reporting(ALL) formats) is a
good idea. This will give you an idea
how the captured data should be make to
reports and accordingly you can organize
the data and then come to the place
where it is stored for designing.
II.You have mentioned the backend as Access
but nothing about the Front end. This
will certainly cater to the development
time you require for the project.
III.Also depending on the to be captured
data, Master tables needed should also
be decided and the number of such
tables needed and separate UI needed
for such ones also to be arrived at
and the time to create same alongwith
the Transaction table(s) User interfaces
(UI).

Sure this will be a good experience for you. As suggested by "Shellbot", you can
seek his help/ideas or anybody here after
arriving you definite plan on the project.

Best Wishes !

The phrase "I am not necessarily an IT professional..." says it all. If you accept this job, a real professional will have to come in and clean it up later. Usually when the performance is so bad that only one person can use it.

Nonprofits have all kinds of data security issues and regulations. If you are not familiar with these, turn it down.

Nonprofits have all kinds of hardware and software compatibility issues. If you are not familiar with Access and its weaknesses (especially multi-user applications), turn it down.

If you think you can do this part-time, turn it down.

If you think you will not have to go back at least once a month for support, turn it down.

Nonprofits are the vampires (about 50% of the time) of the business world. You must FULLY understand the environment and management style of the particular nonprofit in question or they will suck you dry.

Whatever you decide, good luck.

FWIW, after all this time of being a member, this is the first time I thought I should contribute my 2?.

After reviewing all of the posts to date, I have to agree with those suggesting that you do NOT do this. My reason? Again, I have to agree with those that brought up the concept that you don't KNOW Access.

Anybody can build a bad DB. It takes training (even self taught), time, and understanding the CLIENTS requirements (both stated and unstated) to have a chance at building a GOOD DB.

I'm NOT trying to dampen your enthusiasm. I AM trying to prevent a REALLY bad situation from developing.

If you really want to be a DB developer, take it slow and learn without it being a DO or DIE situation. Read a few books. Build a few DBs for yourself. Ask a DB developer to critique them and learn from your mistakes. For the most part, that is what we have all gone through.

I wish I could have been more wine and roses about this but, the very real fact is if you screw up the job, you COULD be in serious trouble.

My experience is most developers take all of the tasks they are going to perform and round the hourly fee for the duration of a project. Analyzing a business and/or process and developing a solution and database fall under the job of a systems analyst. These folks make a lot of money. Charge a higher rate for this part of the project. Your customer may want to take this and run with it if they know how to build forms, reports and querys. If not, charge them for your time to build all of this. They may be able to take the time for testing, but you may be involved in testing and debugging. A developer's rate is fair. Next is training, documentation and support: work on some sort of retainer here. By now you have feel for how demanding this client will be, so charge accordingly.

Don't spend a lot of time working on their problem, developing a solution only to find out they can't pay you for the project or even the quote. They may just show your specs. to someone else who can do it cheaper since they don't have to take the time to determine the specifications.

I know this is a different model and some clients may not be use to it. It will take some selling. All I know is, a client will think twice before asking for a new feature when they know I'll be putting that expensive analyst hat back on.

For non-profits, friends, family, etc., I generally charge $50/hour for Access development.

Since it's going to be hard to estimate the number of hours required (since you're new to Access development), even if you have a full list of the features, etc., that you'll be building, you might want to go with something like "$500 minimum, +$50/hour beyond 10 hours". If you want to cut that price, for whatever reason, try something on that same model.

If they require a "it will absolutely cost $X, no more, no less" type price quote, that might not be a workable contract for you, since you don't know how long it will take.

An 8-page Word template translated into Access, with a few dozen fields to store, sounds like a pretty simple database. Would probably take me less than 10 hours for what you're describing. I'd have to see the form and know what kind of reporting they want out of it to be sure, but 10 hours + learning time is probably not too far off for something of that magnitude.

Oh, and if you need any help on this, feel free to contact me. Simple help I don't charge anything for (especially since this is for a non-profit). If you want major help on design, depending on the time required, I can give you a low-price quote.

If you want me to take a look at the database and give you some critique on structure, etc., I can do that too. Free for something simple. I've been building databases for over 5 years, including SQL and Access, and I like to think I know a bit about it at this point.