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Manager Replaced - Suggestions needed

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by bigabe

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Three weeks ago, I was replaced. I have been an IT Manager for 4 years, within the same company I have worked with for 6 years. I have a spotless record, and received outstanding performance reviews every year. It is an excellent company and I do not want to leave, but my situation has made it very difficult to focus on my "new" role.

The scenario:
A new Director was appointed, which I was a direct report. Two weeks after, my director came to my office, to say I was moving to QA, that I was not loosing my job and if I didnt like it, to find another job. Also, two weeks after my move, a different employee with no management experience, let alone, call center experience was placed in my old position. So now, I am learning my new environment and making the best of the situation.

My Delima:
I want to persue finding out why this was done, as I was given no explanation or reason. Should I go to the director or HR? Also, is this something that can be done in an at-will work state? I am basically concerned, that if I do persue this issue, I would be black balled and eventually let go for something.

151 replies

by dc_guy

Yes, this is something that can be done in an at-will work state. One way to look at this is that you're lucky to still have a job at all.

Obviously something fishy is going on. Somebody owes somebody a favor. Or it could be worse, something bordering on blackmail or extortion. You REALLY don't want to go digging around in this!

What you do next is entirely up to you. If you think there are good reasons to work for a company that pulls weird stunts like this, like perhaps jobs aren't that easy to find, then stay. If the place now makes you gnash your teeth every time you walk in the door, then maybe you'd better find another job.

But whatever you do, LEAVE THIS ALONE. Look what they did to you already as an innocent bystander. Do you really want to tick them off?

by Member 22818828

as with previous advice stay out of it... but it would be a good point to push for a very positive job reference... don't burn bridges... you never know when you'll meet these guys again. Obviously next tiem you'll be wary.

best regards

by jamesrl

I am assuming that you had expressed no interest in learning other parts of the business/department.

Normally if you are demoting someone, or giving them a lateral, you tell them why - otherwise what was the point? So it looks like the move was done for other reasons - and I doubt you will ever get to the bottom of it. HR people know that in the end -they work for management. They won't tell you anything the Director wouldn't -they will just be nicer about it.

I would start looking for another job.

James

by olearyt

I am currently reading a book written by John G. Miller "Personal Accountability. Pick it up and give it a read for the insight it will provide you will allow you and you only to make life changing decisions. Good Luck and I wish you the best on the path you select.

by dilbert-tom

There are some things I'd personally do, because I have a robust sense of humor (and have been thru hell already and know my way around and how to get out).
1) I'd set up a QA Process that is as heavy as possible on Administrative Approvals from as many QA 'Areas' as I could credibly define - done correctly, that 'New' Manager will be reporting to QA in two years. Define a forest of administrative paperwork requirements for any software changes, and hire as many Staff as possible to administer it. If need be, hire a Consultant to help define this new 'Kingdom'.
2) Be looking for better work all the while, once your initiative is started - it will carry on with a life of it's own anyway. Be sure to put the 'QA' "Promotion" on the resume and assume that the Director will be a good reference, stay positive (if he wants you to go away, he would know that he needs to be a good reference). Your reason for leaving might be best expressed as "Looking to return to IT Management (rather than QA Management).
3) If your successor is still new - prepare 3 envelopes, coach him to open and use them in sequence as trouble arises. In them (in sequence) sshould be notes that say :
A) "Blame your predecessor"
B) "Reorganize"
C) "Prepare 3 Envelopes"

He he !

by sleepin'dawg

Judging by BigAbe's memo, I am assuming he is in the age bracket of 24 - 32; with or without a degree and is a likable sort who gets along with his peers and buddies. He is probably hard working
with the willingness to get the job done at whatever cost to himself or his staff. This could be part of his problem: He is putting too much emphasis on being well liked and not enough on being a boss and that could be impacting on his organizational skills in regards to time management and the meeting of deadlines. This, of course, is my own assumption and I could be wrong.
However, I most definitely am NOT wrong in stating that if his memo is any indication of his communication skills; he is in dire need of courses in basic english and spelling. Hopefully, his conversational skills are not larded with deses and doses but I would not be surprised if they were. A lot of people tend to trivialize the importance of language and communication skills but in the end poor performance in these has killed the aspirations of many who hope to rise above the lower management rung. An example and it is just one of many in his memo: it's spelled dilemma and if you are going to use a word to headline a paragraph make sure it does not contain a glaring spelling error. That and poor or
incomplete sentence structure, literally jump out at you. as it stands now, his only appearances in the board room will be as a union rep and never as a senior manager. Management requires more than technical virtuosity; there comes a point where certain social skills kick in and on of them is clear and concice communication abilities. I'm an engineer and quite frankly a damn good one but I've gotten to my current level on more than my hard work and technical abilities. I'm at home in board rooms or bars and am able to navigate my way to my goals regardless of the social milieu. Think about it.

by richards_unsubcribe

Sleeping dog... Before criticizing the guy for his English composition skills in a public forum, maybe you should do a quick check of your own work first.

Capitalization at the beginning of a sentence? "...out at you. as it stands now, his" (capitalization) ..... "...larded with deses and doses" ( Huh?? what does this mean? poor word usage, improper use of slang) .... "concice communication" (spelling of concise) ... "skills kick in and on of them" (?on? incomplete word, should be ?one?...and spell check wouldn't catch that mistake) After taking into consideration the general appearance and clarity of your work the best I could give you is a D+.

Richard

by plindsayi

I think your asking advice first shows wisdom...However, I wonder how long many people will have to live in the dark while their self-confidence is broken down because of lack of integrity by employers. I just got an e-mail from a man who is 60 years old but has twice the experience and ability and great references that a 38 year old man has. He was flown in for an interview, got positive results all the way through and the only answer the hiring agency could give is " I know it is against the law but I think your age lost the job. I can't find any other answer." America is losing out because we break the confidence of great workers through our deviousness and we call it business. Wish there was something we could do about it but I feel all the comments sent you are correct.

by deadly ernest

If you have a contract or work agreement and are EXTREMELY unhappy about the situation, then check what your contract says your work is and take them to task if your current work is outside it; but don't do this unless you are happy for them to say 'End of Contract, goodbye.'

Something odd is happening and you do NOT want to be involved. Either some very fancy internal politics, or investigating some misbehaviour by someone, or arranging some misbehaviour by someone; whatever it is you don't want to be involved if you want to keep working there.

Best advice if you like the new work, or atleast don't hate it, get stuck in and learn the new stuff thus increasing your employability. And when you get on top of it, seek a new job at higher pay.

by cdb424ttm

I've had other people use the term "take them to task". Can you tell me what it means I have never heard of this before?
Thanks

by mikel28

'Task' in Roget's Thesaurus includes 'Duty'. To 'take someone to task' is to require them to do their duty, accept responsibility and honour their obligations.
BE careful - see earlier replies!

by coyotenm

Take someone to task to talk to someone sternly and point out that they did something wrong.

Personally, I think that would be a bad move unless it's on the day that you know you have another job waiting.

by jimhm

Don't rock the boat - somebuddy knows somebuddy's new director very very well. So do your new job the best - if the new manager of your old position start to screw up - and the employees start complaining to HR - all the better.

I learned the hard way - stay low when it comes to who you blew (I mean knew) over what your know and how good you are. I am currently being held back because I am more technical than my director and he is scared that other will find out in meetings. (Even thou they find out anyway - and come to me first). I've made it through 1 lay off so far -

You can make waves - but make sure you are unsinkable - HR is going to back the director unless you have strong legal evidance to the contrary.

by coldbrew

If you need/like your job lay low. New management came in at my job and basically let us run the department by oursleves. We had not day to day manager and I even had a coworer who was a step above me checking my timesheets. I don't play the corporate a*s kissing game very well and ran my mouth to anyone that would listen. I was eventually RIF'd. Though I am out of the situation I leanred my lesson. Good luck...something sounds fishy there though.

by worker bee

You have gotten good advice here. If you try and find out why you were demoted you won't get any answers and you will get a lot of grief.

You had six good years with this company but you need to accept that it is over and it is now time to move on. You should even feel somewhat flattered that this new Director did not think you were suitable evil henchman material.

Good luck to you. You sound like an OK guy for an manager.

by clemmy

All the response so far have been negetive. Duck and cover, keep your nose clean etc.

Have you thought that maybe they have a QA problem? maybe you were highlighted as the best person for this job? maybe the powers that be are attempting to resolve a problem within this dept. and haven't managed to inform you yet.
Have you been assigned a specific task? maybe this will give you some insight.

In the end it is a HR problem, ask for an informal discussion off the record. If you approach them in a nicely nicely way they may hint at a larger problem you know nothing about.

by rsarvis

Yes, I agree with being proactive. When I here can't, what I actually here is won't. Being the best you can be at any job is GOOD. That is not saying you have to like it. As a matter of fact, if I did not, I would start looking. Situations like this are common at the management level, called politics. Any leader is going to want people who they feel comfortable with serving under them. Inteligent and successful managers will always put people in positons under them that support them. Some call it Team Building. I would say OK to it, do the best I could at my current position, and rock and roll. Why would you want to be in a bad relationship any, that sounds like addiction not love. Great people do great things, where are you standing? Set a goal and to for it! Thanks,

by golfloon

In the UK this would be called constructive dismissal unfortunately I don't think you have the same legal protection in the US.

This is clearly a case of company politics or rank chronyism, either way any company who will let a director behave in this way is not worth working for.

You'd be surprised how few good managers there are on the job market. Get your CV out there and have a look and when you have had your reference sent to a new employer there is nothing to say that your letter of resignation isn't sent to your director and CC'd into the Board. If it is objective, factual and well written it could make his stay with the company very short lived.

by paul

Seems like a lot of people on this board are prone to jumping to "conspiracy conclusions". Having been in your situation, albeit as the manager who moved you, I know how quick the poison pen starts to write. My advice to you, sit down with your new manager, and discuss the matter with him in an open and friendly way - you might just be suprised how well it works out.

Most managers, myself included, really appreciate honesty and the courage to actually come and breach what feels like a touchy subject.

Don't hide under a veil of conspiracy like the others seem to want you to do, go and ask the question, you can't be fired for that.

Good luck.

by rmkjr

Also, was there a salary decrease. That would be an issue if you go to HR. Don't ask why you were moved, why was your salary 'adjusted'.
But, like others have posted, it sounds like internal politics and that's a game you don't want to play unless you have a lot of resources [another job lined up, money...]. If you feel you have to take it to HR, do a job search first & see if anythings available. If you've been there long & a manager maybe you have some friends who might help you, but again, do a job search first, just in case they do get rid of you

by steview

I agree that people are too quick to just to conclusions, usually negative ones, maybe a reflection of the overall attitude in the industry, not so good.

The way in which you describe how it happened does seem somewhat aggresive, is that just your summary or was it as to the point as that?

Keep in mind, it is common for new leaders to come into a company then take steps to demonstrate their authority to keep everyone in line and show them who is boss.
He will have different demands, expectations and ideas to your previous boss, he will likely have a long term plan as well. However for a long term change to be implemented he will need to know that the people that report to him will be willing and able to work his way, he shakes things about a little and makes some waves, the weak an unwilling will leave, the strong and determined will stay. Remember, the view from the top is often better than the view from below.

Maybe the person that now has your old job isn't as green as you think. or maybe he has potential for management and is best started in a relatively easy position to see how they do?

What happened to the person who's job you now have?

My thoughts are that you should get on top of the job you now have and identify what areas need developed or improved then arrange a meeting with your boss to go over his expectations of you and your department. Provide him with your information so that he can see that you are taking the initiative. When going over it with him, know what else you want to ask and judge the situation as you go, if you think it is safe to make deeper enquiries then do so.

talking solves most problems, at the very least you will find out where you stand. Saying nothing and fueling any negative feelings will only serve to drive you out of the company by your own actions - while you may try to hide it, these things are often very obvious to others that you work with.

lots of thoughts... not much structure... but hope it's useful.

by johns

While your suggestion to avoid the conspiracy issue is probably a good one in some cases, I think yu over looked the part where Big Abe told us that the new manager told him that if he did not like being moved to go find another job.

This thing reaks of office politics and the new boss having a "golden boy" waiting to be put into a better position for which he has no qualifications.

In this case I would strongly suggest that Abe not ask the new manager anything. As long as the manager has this special someone under his wing Abe doesn't stand a snowballs chance in Hades of getting a straight answer.

Abe, time to start passing out resumes and networking with people either with your present company or at another location. You need to get as far away from this new manager and his appointee as possible.

If you stay it won't be more than a year before the guy who was given your job is your new boss!

by telcoit

There's nothing like honesty, acting honest and open will put you above others in your group and can save you if a RIF comes but ... you also need to have an idea what's going on. Find out the rumors in the "grape vine" and talk to your contacts around the company. Once you start putting 2 and 2 together, then speak to your new manager. He may offer up more info to help you draw conclusions or he may be tight lipped about everything. Remember, your new manager is pretty much in the same boat as you are ... one day you just showed up without any interviews or anything. Depending on the info you get from your new manager, you can better decide if it's time abandon ship or hold fast.

by jimhm

Paul - you may be correct and this new director has no communication skills (Zippo - Down in the negative numbers)... When Abe comes in and says "I was moving to QA, that I was not loosing my job and if I didnt like it, to find another job."

If it wasn't favoritism or something like that - he could of said that the Q/A section news a strong manager and I have assigned you to it.

I have found that went there is no logical answer to why something was done by management - or the do a song and dance around the reason - and try (as we said in the military) to blow smoke up your ass - then it is office Politics - or favoritism - or some shady deal and you are getting the shaft.

So I go by if it Looks like a Duck / Quacks like a Duck and Walks like a Duck ... Then its a Duck.

But - we only know the one side and you could be 100% correct - but then again - better to be safe and keep low than risk rocking the boat..

by gnunzo

Managers/Directors love nothing more than to be considered an expert in an area (inversely proportionate to their actual expertise).

I would not hesitate to go to your NEW QA manager/director and ask if there are some things specifically you could work on to become a better employee. Take notes like you are being told the cure for cancer. Then, when your director inevitably asks why you came to them with such a request, you can say becuase you view them as a successful manager/director you found worthy to ask. And then maybe drop/hint that you feel room to improve your skills and habits based on recent moves that left you feeling uneasy--like you may need some improvement. Then let this manager/director either dismiss your concerns, confirm your concerns, or if they have no clue, they may become interested in what happened and why. And at this point, they are your advocate. If they say leave it alone, leave it alone.

And since when do people in forums start worrying about (aboot to you Canadians--Happy Canada Day!!)spelling? I suggest finding a script kiddie chat or forum to join. There is a whole language out there that is loosely based on English).

by techden

Golfloon has hit the nail on the head - this is Constructive Dismissal in action. You are being forced out, but in such a way as to make you *decide* to leave. This frees the exploiter (sorry, employer) from having to pay you any severance package. Consult your employment legislation - there may be some recompense, but in the US, probably not.

Whether this is cronyism, politics or nasty management practices is irrelevant. You are being abused, and there is clearly no respect for you, your (former) position or managerial level. Do you really want to stay in such lousy company? Are they really as good as you think? Cut your losses - you will only suffer where you are, and it could really damage your career to stay. Sharpen up the CV.

One word of caution - do not assume that the company / HR will definitely give you a good reference. Be wary, and assume there is no reason for them to start treating you well now. When you are ready to go, and have started applying for other positions, have a friend pretend to be a prospective employer to see what reference they give you.

As a friend keeps (half) joking - For disaster recovery, keep your CV up to date, and off site.
Watch your back!

by paul

There seems to be a vast number of experts here who were able to ascertain facts about Abe's case simply by reading between the lines, or perhaps consulting with a medium.

You know, comments like these are what causes the "storm in a teacup" scenario in companies around the world every day.

Get out there, catch your boss, and FACE IT - If you can't handle that, then to be brutally honest, the water is too hot for you so get out.

Snide talk under the table is the thing I detest most about people I have worked with in the past, it achieves absolutely zero and ensures that you are seen in a negative light by those who can make your life heaven, or hell.

by shabogrp

BigAbe your dilema is all too common in organizations, namely poor management skills. The effort expended and the potential risk (immediate loss of position)to satisfying your curiosity may be better spent going forward either in your new position or procuring a new position. Either way you're in control, grab the bull by the horns and leave the bull**** behind.

by rkresge123

There's next to nothing you can do that will do you any good. The director already told you that if you don't like it find another job. Either make the best of your new position (and that means keeping a LOW profile, not rocking the boat, etc.) or get out as quickly as you can.

You will never get an answer if you try to find out what happened. And trying to get the answer just brands you as a troublemaker.

If you can get satisfaction out of what you're doing now, great. If you can't, get out. And don't forget that this could be the first step of a plot to get rid of you; if it is, you won't see the next step coming until it hits you. So no matter what, polish your resume!

Been there, done that. Good luck.

by gosox18

understand that management and HR have already discussed the events that led up to the move. my guess is that they already have a 'canned' response to any inquiry that you make. most importantly, no amount of questioning/complaining is going to make matters better for you.

by smithl

It sounds like you were demoted from IT manager to QA. If, indeed, it was a demotion, this can be deemed as constructive dismissal, in which case, you might have a claim to sue the company for wrongful dismissal - especially if you have a spotless record. I am not a lawyer, but I work with a lot of people who have been let go of their companies wrongfully. What your boss has done to you is not only unethical, it is wrong. You should seek legal advice and see if you have a case. Good luck!

by susan_h

1. Many new directors like to surround themselves with their
own people.
2. Most contracts, if you even have one, state that you are
working "at will" -- which means the company can get rid of you
for any or no reason. Only blatant discrimination will help with a
suit (and when you pursue that route you become less
desireable to other companies.)
3. Moving an employee to a lower position, to a tedious task or
isolated job are well known tactics used to get the employee to
quit on his own. Moving the employee to one where he has a
good chance of failing due to lack of knowledge is usually the
first step toward giving the company a "good" reason to dismiss
him.

Time to start the job search. Good help desk departments are
hard to find--sell yourself. Get references from those you have
helped and, if you know for sure they can be trusted now,
people who worked for you.

by sawhite

I agree with smithl.
I've dealt with less than desirable employees who won their case, so it seems reasonable that under your circumstances you would too.

Although most companies are hire/fire at will, they pay a premium for it in unemployment insurance and other legal fees. I'd call them on this with some legal backing.

I assume you not only lost your status/position; but also your income level. Unless the entire department or organization is undergoing staffing cuts, your were screwed.

Best regards,

swhite

by susan_h

1. Many new directors like to surround themselves with their
own people.
2. Most contracts, if you even have one, state that you are
working "at will" -- which means the company can get rid of you
for any or no reason. Only blatant discrimination will help with a
suit (and when you pursue that route you become less
desireable to other companies.)
3. Moving an employee to a lower position, to a tedious task or
isolated job are well known tactics used to get the employee to
quit on his own. Moving the employee to one where he has a
good chance of failing due to lack of knowledge is usually the
first step toward giving the company a "good" reason to dismiss
him.

Time to start the job search. Good help desk departments are
hard to find--sell yourself. Get references from those you have
helped and, if you know for sure they can be trusted now,
people who worked for you.

by ed woychowsky

A while back I worked for a company that created a unique way to downsize without having ?layoffs?. They would reclassify people, in other words you?d go home on Friday a programmer and come in on Monday to find that you?re now an electrical engineer.

?What? You don?t have the skills to be an electrical engineer? We?ll just have to let you go, then.?

This scenario ran on for several months, until they started losing the lawsuits. It could be that your company is trying something similar, but without making the unrealistic leap from programmer to electrical engineer. I?d be looking if I were you.

by dboundscpa

This is the primary downside of drawing that regular paycheck by working for "the man" instead of self employment. They have all the power and frankly, there's not a thing you can really do about it. Keeping records, asking for explanations, etc. will only fuel the fire of their disdain for you. The reality is that they don't owe you a job and they'll be happy to give it to someone else if you indicate you aren't happy there.

by don fachabella

It has happened to many ,many managers!
Basically your screwed. The next step is usually out the door. They are just waiting. Because if you have tenure in the company they dont want you to claim age discrimination, etc.
Polish up the old resume. You will need it.
The next step?
Probally if your company has branch offices afar you will be given the option to move or quit.

I know the other posts say make the best of it but,
this isn't a good thing. It never is. As posted before on this board, this is one of the signs of a good bye.
Good Luck, start looking!!!

by azhang2ford

I had same experience. They put you down first, decrease your salary, and wait for or create an Opportunity to let you out of the door. The best way for you is looking for a job and gets any evidences they might be needed in the future.

My employer owes my salary still. I don't know how and where I should go and find my right to sue my pre-employer because he broke the contract--typewritten job certificated.

Good Luck, start looking today.

by ajongwe

The actions of your Director are an indictment on the HR practice in your organization.For once, the actions of the Director constitute unfair labour practice. As one contributor has amply put it, this is a case of "constructive intention to redeploy someone without giving due regard to process and procedure". For that, you are rightly aggrieved and entitled to legal recourse. Your guiding principle should be: Be Soft on People but Hard on the Problem. Your Director needs to know that he cannot get away with murder. There is nothing personal but just ensuring that procedures are there to be followed.

by steverd

The same thing happened here very recently as a result of an acquisition and subsequent re-org. The situation you describe is very, very poor HR. If the movewas not explained to you or you still have questions, you should definitely go to HR to discuss the issue. That is what HR is there to do.

The risk, if any, depends on how politically charged the atmosphere is at your company. That said, I would still contact HR but otherwise be silent about the move. Most IT jobs are "at will" so there is not such thing as a "termination without cause" recourse in most states. If you are deemed a political liablility, you could be collecting unemployment.

by kaambrose

BigAbe,

I've read the postings here and would agree that going to HR probably won't produce any valuable insight as to why this happened to you. And, it is my understanding, that they really don't have to give you an explanation although that would be the "curtious" thing to do. I believe it was DC Guy that stated that someone probably owed someone else a favor. You would like to think that if you are meeting or exceeding your job expectations, this would not happen. It's all politics, politics, politics. I've know many people who have had to just "suck it up" including myself.

Best to you,

Kimberley

by roger.bailey

Several people here have encouraged a "lay low" attitude or a "get resume ready" approach. I think one post mentioned sit down and talk to the director. As a past VP, I have always been willing to discuss situations with a well informed employee that has questions. How do you get well informed? 1) Explore the organization's policy on movement of personnel, 2)Determine the job requirements for the QA position, 3) Discuss job performance requirements with the boss, 4) document the actions taken and 5) make a decision. The decision factor is your choice. If after discussing the situation (demotion and new job), you are unhappy with the results - Move on! According to your post, the director stated that if you weren't happy find a new job. I have told many people to find a new job within the company. Obviously they want to keep you around since they moved you to a new position. Keep in mind that in an "at will" state, you can be let go without notice at any time.

by steverd

Roger,

You sound like someone I would like to work for. Although I like my current company, I have worked with companies where discussions of this type with a VP or Director would be considered confrontational. It really depends how dysfunctional the management structure is on whether he should approach them.

If he has no support from from any of his management or HR, probably time to move on and not risk getting canned.

by steverd

Roger,

You sound like someone I would like to work for. Although I like my current company, I have worked with companies where discussions of this type with a VP or Director would be considered confrontational. It really depends how dysfunctional the management structure is on whether he should approach them.

If he has no support from from any of his management or HR, probably time to move on and not risk getting canned.

by gscutt

You did not indicate why the previous director was replaced, or why the new director was selected. It could be very helpful to you to informally contact the previous director (with whom you were evidently on good terms).

There is a good chance that your job change had nothing to do with you, either personally, or as an employee. It sounds like the new Director brought in someone totally beholden to him, a loyal spear carrier, as so to speak. He may feel insecure.

It is also possible that you are viewed as part of an 'old regime,' that the new director has been told to change/improve.

More information may give you a clearer understanding of what you should do.

In the meantime, perform your present duties to the best of your abilities. One is usually judged based on current performance. Indeed, a diminution of responsibilities may be a pleasant experience for you; a chance to relax and recharge your batteries. Smile more.

by dennyg

...for bringing to light the absolute lack of recourse we American workers really have. The posts from
the UK folks really struck me with how impotent we are in the face of work place injustice. I'm sorry
that I have no advice for you Abe - just my heart felt condolences! ?Been there done that? - I have
nothing good to say about American corporations since my life experience with them has been a mirror image of Abe?s sad dilemma. I know that there are two sides to every argument, and that we are not privy to the company?s side, but is it not a sad commentary that our best advice is for Abe to polish up his resume?

by mark.szumlas

This is not an uncommon practice in the U.S.
Even though you did not do anything wrong enough to justify being terminated or repremanded, You are not performing to senior management's expectations and have not received their confidence that you can fulfill their long term goals.(If you were "Their Man", you would not have had a Senior manager place in front of you).
Senior level management is always shuffling management in this fashion.
You have also, probably projected this resentment to your new boss, thus getting moved further down the side.
What you should be doing is convincing new management that you are a team player and that your are very happy to aprt of the team and looking forward to learning from your new boss's experience.(After all, Senior management thinks he's got something you don't...So get on board and find out what that something is).
Don't cry about what should have happening etc....if your management material then act like one.....learn and move on or get out.

by compspec2

Been in your same situation, just coming around right now. Trust me there could be no good reason whatsoever. Learn QA and everything else, it's going to be the driving force in IT and you boss may not be.

by pbiss

He does owe you an explanation. It may be he thought he detected a perfect QA guy in you...
If he considers himself too high up to need to explain, he is probably a rotten Director and, if you can't get out from under inside the organisation, you may want to consider leaving.
However,
you now have a problem. You have to explain why it has taken you two months to ask why. I know, these situations are difficult to manage properly for most of us - but you do need a good excuse.

by is girl

You probably won't get a truthful explaination from either the Director or from HR. If you were being appointed to another position because you were the best person for the job, the Director would have told you so when he reassigned you. The fact that he told you that if you don't like it leave indicates that he probably would have preferred to let you go altogether.

If you like the new job and love the company and don't feel in the least bit troubled by the way you've been treated.....stay. If you feel confused and jerked around (as anyone would), you need to start making plans for a graceful exit.

Don't get caught up in the thinking that because you work in an at-will state or country you are stuck in a bad situation with no recours. At will employement works both ways....you don't owe your employer anything either.

If I were you, I would try to make the best of the job I'm in for now and learn what you can. Then, I'd add my new skills to my resume and "spin" the change in a positive light. Then, I'd start looking at options for other employment.

At very worst, you will feel more positive about the change and begin to like the new position. At best, you will find a job that is better in a company that is better than the one you are in now. Knowing that you are taking action to improve your situation will make you feel better about it.

Remember that talented IT people are hard to find and you will be able to find another position doing the job you want to be doing if you are patient.

by anne.powel

If you are that unhappy, you won't do well in QA even if you are the best QA-er ever to hit the pike. So bite the bullet, ask the man directly what motivated the change, and if you don't like the answer you know where monster.com is.
But if the company is that good and is fairly large, you could ask your HR people about possibly transferring to another branch. The HR folks will not have the whys of your job switch, I can pretty much guarantee, but they may have lists of openings within the corporation.
Don't get down on the corporation itself until and unless it's proven to be the problem.
Good luck.

by kevin.dorrell

Frankly, I don't know what you are worried about.

You get an opportunity to learn about something new (QA). The other guy gets to learn something new (your old job). QA get the benefit of your wider experience and outstanding performance reviews. Everyone wins. Even in the worst case, you can add QA to your cv.

What's wrong with working in QA anyway? It needs competent people.

by mkmcompany

I have read all the responses and what it really comes down to now is what is best for you and your career ? You put forth your best efforts and for whatever reason they werent good enough. So now you have to decide what is in your best interest and then do it. I was passed up for a promotion because of a change in management. My new director told me that I would not only be doing my job but the better part of his ( the job I was passed up for ) so I accepted Senior IS managments decision and at the first opportunity when to work for someone else with the company who really wanted me to move to their dept. So now it's time for you to decide what is really in your best interest and then do it , in or out of the company.

by tampa hillbilly

Most likely is that a friend of the boss needed a job. The second is that you did good, so you are moved to clean up or organize another department. Either way, do your best and refuse to get sucked into office politics and games.

by cynic_with_reason

Having worked at a small company with corrupt business practices and a management structure built on deceit and retribution, I realize how difficult it can be to maintain personal integrity and professional ethics while swimming in a proverbial sewer. As depressing as it may sound, closed societies with corrupt leadership do bad things to fairly decent people, and in the case of businesses, HR exists to back upper management. People have been set up, discredited, and ruined by arrogant, petty despots, and the best thing you can do is leave. If you make waves, even if you win in the end, you will have hurt yourself much more than the worth of knowledge of having done the right thing. They say that "all it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing", but here is a case where the deck is stacked against you in advance. Direct confrontation may be "doing something", but the smarter move is for "good men" to leave, and the company will eventually crumble under corrupt and inept leadership.

by nlyons

...wish them well, research and get acquainted with your new position and let the chips fall where they may. If you don't like where you are now, look for new employment but try to face this with gusto. Never let them see you sweat. Face the day with a smile and enthusiasm to meet this challenge. In the long run, you might be seen as a great guy who doesn't let such drama affect him or his integrity.

by crelbert

Unless you are a government employee and protected under the Civil Servant Rules I would stay out of it. Obviously somebody called in some favors and I would not get in the middle of it. Eventually this person will be exposed as not being knowledgable and you do not want to be finger pointing. I would leave this up to the company rumor mill. If somebody asks just say I love my new assignment and move on.

Something similar happened to me awhile back and I looked at it from the perspective of "just because you have to take a detour in life does not mean you cannot enjoy the scenic route." Look at it as an opportunity to learn something new to add to your job experience. The new job task only adds to your knowledge and makes you more marketable should you seek employment otherwise. In my case I wound up with a promotion and better job than I had before the move came about.

Good luck!

by techwannabe

I think a little introspection is in order. Many times we know the answers to the questions we have; we just want confirmation from someone else that we have the right answer. I trust that you got your prior level in the organization by using the grey matter.

* Why might this have happened to you? Is there
any reason you can think of why the company
may have felt this was appropriate? Only you
know your performance. Only you know how much
of a "player" you are in the office politics
arena.

* Would the possible repercussions of getting
the answers you seek from HR or the Director
be worth it if it caused them to take willful
action to ruin you?

* Is this a clear signal that it's time to move
on? Do you believe that this event has caused
you to be less marketable? If you have no
interest in doing the QA job, you'll only
damage your career and reputation, because
you won't give the company (and the position)
the 100 percent it deserves.

The best advice I can give is don't be passive.
Actively pursue what is truly in your best interest. If that means deciding that you want to be the best QA person the company has had, then go for it. If that means finding a position like your previous with another company, then go for it. Just don't lay back and wait for someone else to decide what's going to happen to you!

Best of Luck,

Cindi

by it_techie_guy

Don't go digging around. If the area you live in has other jobs available in your field go for it now. Don't wait and take the chance of your company coming up to you and firing you on the spot. Maybe that won't happen, I don't know for sure but I would not take the gamble.

The reason I say this is because a year and a half ago I was released from a company who I had been employeed with 3 years to the day. I showed up to work on a Monday morning and the GM of our division called me into his office and said, "I have been told to let you go". The reason he gave was "I DON"T KNOW". He even admitted was one of the top techs the company and one of the top in billing hours.

So having kind of gone down this road I would get out while you can. Don't wait for them, believe me, they can black ball you and then finding a job is a real pain.

Good Luck!!!

by waidz176

I could not believe coming to work this morning and seeing this post in the newsletter. I just found out a similar thing about my own situation yesterday. Anyway - in our country - this is seen as Constructuve dismissal as is very much a Labour law matter. This can be taken up with the relevant Mediation boards etc. I am not sure if there is such a law in the US - but I am sure there would be something similar. You have to prove that you would not have left otherwise - and were forced into resigning by way of being put into intolerable curcumstances.
With me I have just figured that I wouldn't gain much by taking this matter further legally - it would be a huge waste of time - and whether I was reinstated or received compensation (unlikely) then it would have simply wasted valuable time. To me this is an opportunity to move on rather than focus on what would've, could've should've been. The trust is already gone - it's easier to find another great opporunity than try to fight to regain trust...

by bobrouseatl

I worked for a small startup company that was really doing well from the Engineering perspective, but not so well from the Sales perspective. They brought in a new CEO to shake things up. He started bringing in his cronies, and my boss - who was the Director over Support, Engineering, and QA kept getting squeezed out until he had no one working for him at all. Eventually, he was terminated.

My guess is that you are a string leader, with strong skills, and your new boss is intimidated. He has brought in a buddy to take your place so he can feel safe. I'm guessing that after a while, he'll bring in a QA buddy as well, and you could be toast.

Check your contract to see what your termination options are. My boss bit his tongue while they were trying to bait him (instead of doing the cathartic lashing out), and was able to collect on the termination clause in his contract.

Realistically, you are probably not long for the company. Better to walk out the door on your own terms rather than theirs. Whatever you do, play by the rules and don't give them a reason for terminating you before you are ready to go.

by gadget-girl

Your situation is sort of like a "surprise" divorce and you haven't a clue why your mate is unhappy. Look inward and figure out why they moved you out, this is not your first such experience, I am sure. If you don't have a clue then this maybe one of your problems: no insight and can't relate to others.

What Not to Do: Going to HR is a very bad idea as they are not on your side and will pass on everything you say, which will be preceived as whining. However, if by chance you talk with them say how much you like your new situation because it is "rounding" out your career and learning the business from a different angle.

They have given you a second chance, open your ears and mind. Your move is over and done with and no one wants to tread over that ground again. If you can't move on move out.

by paul

And no, I don't think it reeks of office politics. From my perspective, ie an outsider - much like you John, I cannot draw a solid conclusion based on what are essentially inconclusive facts.

I stand firm on the fact that the issue should be raised head to head with the manager concerned, not aired and bitched about on a bulletin board. As a manager, and as someone who reports to a manager I can honestly say that is always my first approach - otherwise, well, you're just blowing hot air.

Get the facts first, then pass judgment on the manager, don't do it the wrong way around.

by sbruce2004

BigAbe,

As an HR Director for a large technology organization, I can provide you with some advice.

I would ask the Director why you were placed in a position which you feel is a demotion? (i) he/she may not feel that it is a demotion; (ii) regardless of whether or not it is a lateral move, he/she should provide you with a reason; and (iii) if you pose it in a inquisitive manner (rather than accusatory) then there really is no down side to asking the question.

If you don?t receive a response or don?t receive a response that you are comfortable with, you should ask your local HR rep or the next level of HR management about the transfer. Contrary to some of the posts, HR is not just going to ?back the company?. Typically this only occurs when you have a bad senior management team or CEO, which doesn?t last long in today?s corporate environment of change, financial focus and lawsuits.

More often, the individual doesn?t like the response provided by HR. The bottom line is that the company can make dramatic changes to an employee?s position, responsibilities and even compensation; with minimal or no explanation, so long as there is a business reason that is not tied to any discriminatory behavior as defined under the EEOC. Now, companies that operate under those circumstances often do not keep the best and brightest and eventually a management change is made at the executive level.

Having said that, you may have legal claims, if you can demonstrate, document or prove that the employment change was discriminatory and that you were damaged.

More than likely, this issue stems from a conflict averse manager that can?t sit down with the employee and explain why the change needs to happen. I think your Director needs a Management 101 class on basic employee relations and communication.

In regards to the reason of the transfer? there may be several reasons? they may feel that you operate more effectively as an individual contributor; at the same time, they believe you have significant skills, energy and productivity to excel in this new role and are trying to retain you with the company. However, if the Director actually said? ?if you don?t like it you can find another job?, I would say that your opportunities with that department are not good and it may be time to transfer to another department or look for another job.

In summary, you always can leave the company, but it appears to me when I read your post that you would like to stay. If you can get them to admit the reason, have them confirm that you are an employee that they want to retain; then you can try to find out what areas of improvement are necessary for you to be placed in a management position again.

I hope this helps, without real understanding of the situation, I can only provide a generic response, but I wish you well.

Take care.

by dimmo

Hi Bigabe,

A familiar story. five months ago I returned to work after two
weeks leave (birth of son) to find I was no longer IT Manager.
Instead I was 'promoted' to Project Manager. I had spent four
years working 16 hours a day, 6 and 7 days a week for this
company. Now when everything is running OK and all the hard
work has been done I am no longer needed. A phone call from
my boss told me that he wanted his 'best people' working with
him and that is why I had been promoted.

After much anger and disillusion I am now a Project Manager
with no projects. However, I now work 8 hours a day, 5 days a
week. I work from home instead of driving into the office, and I
still get the same salary. I am also about to get a whole pile of
new equipment to use at home :-)

It seems that all this was brought about due to changes in
company direction. I am making the most of the situation for
now. In fact a recent conversation with the big boss has revealed
that I will indeed be working on some very big projects, they just
need some time to sort things out - and I was told to enjoy the
break while I can.

What really paid off for me was patience. I could have thrown in
the towel a long time ago but I trusted the Boss to do the right
thing. Maybe you should stick around a bit to find out what the
real intentions are.

Cheers,

by maxwell edison

.
From the scanty details provided, it sounds as though this "new hire" that replaced you was a preference of the new director. Using a football analogy, if you were a special teams coach, or something like that, and the head coach was replaced with a new guy (a new director, in your case), that new coach certainly has the prerogative to bring in his own staff - even if the old staff was performing magnificently. It sounds as though this may be the case with you. Carrying the football analogy a bit further, this new head coach also has the prerogative to shuffle the existing staff, perhaps moving the special teams coach to some other position of responsibility. The new head coach (or director, in your case) certainly has his reasons for doing such things, and the outcome of those decisions will be reflected in his future results.

I suppose if you really wanted to push the issue you could press your new director to explain the reasons for the decision, but he/she may or may not feel obligated to share them with you. If so, great, then you can find out. If not, then you may just want to let the issue drop and either do your best in your new position or, like he said, look for a different "special teams" position with a different team.

My advice to you: Look for the "silver lining" in this situation. And to be sure, there is indeed a "silver lining", even though it may not be immediately apparent. Follow that "silver lining", and just let the chips fall where they may.

by tlea

I definately don't agree with the folks that say lay low and things will be ok. This sends a message to management that you are a pushover which means they will probably do this again. Sticking your head in the sand accomplishes one thing, maybe, and that is to let you keep your current job.

My recommendation would be to talk to the director about the change. If he/she doesn't give you a straight answer then you may want to start looking for a new job.

The change could be politically motivated as some have suggested, but I have not seen enough evidence to prove that is the case. I've seen people's jobs shifted in a similar manner, and it is usually because the person isn't performing to the managers satisfaction.

Instead of some deep rooted conspiracy, this could be as simple as the new director doesn't like you, or doesn't like your management style, and thought that this other person might be better suited. Granted, this is a pretty crappy way to deal with the situation, which means that he/she is probably not someone you want to work for anyway.

Overall, If I were you I would start looking for a new job, and I would talk to the Director about the job change.

by mtndive

I agree with tlea, with one caveat.
Decide how far you are willing to take this now. Any job function change deserves an explanation. What are you willing to do/risk to receive a suitable explanation? Get HR involved. At least consult with them about company policy regarding this type of job function change. Ask the manager for an explanation. You may be asked to defend your position. You may be motivated to request the manager to defend their position. This action _may_ lead them to start working to get you fired, or not - this depends on how they perceive your attitude. If you are not willing to accept the risk of losing your job, then don't start anything. If the manager has said to their superior that you cannot dispense the duties of the position that you once held and you do not challenge this, you are going nowhere in this company anyway.
If you do not say anything, you will probably be treated like this again.

by gordon.rudd

After reading a few of the responses to your dilemma they are all very weak on the real issue. Non of the responses I reviewed seem to understand the ?corporate speak? that?s going on here. Allow me to translate.

For what ever reason or reasons, the management of your department has not only viewed your job performance in a negative manner they have ?labeled you? as an undesirable by their actions. They have sent a clear message that you were not performing and anyone who performs at the level you were performing at will be reassigned. Further, I would look for them to keep moving you toward the door. Once you are gone?the message will have been delivered to all ?surviving? employees that what you did will get you fired.

Hence my advice to LEAVE find a new job and do it NOW!

by paul

Because that is truly the most impressive spiel of dribble I have ever read. I truly admire your grasp of "corporate speak", may I ask if perhaps you work at McDonalds?

You have a uncanny ability to read so far between the lines that you cannot even see what the lines said in the first place - well done!

Remind me, if I ever wind up your manager, to give you the advice in your last sentence/

by rosheal

The same thing happened to me a couple of years ago. We had a change in CIO and the new one started while I was out having surgery. Not only was I basically demoted and the job given to someone that did not and still does not have a clue how to run my old area, my evaluation that was due right after the forced move was ignored. I finally did go to Human Resources and forced the evaluation issue and the demotion. HR said that I could not do anything about the job move, but they would see that my evaluation was done since it was so late. This turned out to be a bad move as I got the lowest evaluation I have ever gotten in my life. My only saving grace was that I agreed to make the move (since it was going to happen regardless or I was told I be given a good recommendation for a job elsewhere) only if the move was not going to affect my salary. The move should have dropped my job grade and therefore my salary by company policy.

by doogal123

I think that several of the above ideas are worth combining.

1. Upper mgmt. has shown you that they can do what they want, when they want. They have flexed their muscles. You have good reviews, so it is not that. I suspect that your replacement was a friend of the boss, or, put in place to help protect him as a 'yes man', or as a lack of threat (as you could have been), and eventually will be a sacrificial goat for that boss. Your old boss is playing at politics, covering HIS OWN back - better that you are clear of him. He now has no trust value.

2. Going to the director that did this is a WASTE of time, and will probably ruin you internally or get you fired quick at that company. Better to work on doing the new task well as quick as you can, and add 'adapts to change quickly' to your resume'.

3. HR is always going to side with upper management. Often they have NO POWER to make policy, they follow what they are told. Tough for HR to criticize their bosses. In the US we don't have the protection that the Brits do, as mentioned previously.

4. If you think you have a legal case, persue it AFTER you have a new job somewhere else or at least are not working there anymore. If not, you are cutting your own throat.

5. ***KEY** AND, If the management allows this kind of thing to go on, DO YOU REALLY WANT TO WORK THERE MUCH LONGER? If management does not care about what you want to do as work, this is an important and negative quality of your management. And if they can do it once, they WILL do it again.

If they didn't even ask you about this assignment, then you are being treated as a serf, period. Is the management from another country? Their cultural attitudes may be that workers don't have to be consulted about these reorganizations.

I agree about the 'grin and bear it', learning as much as you can in the new position and doing your best at it, but also polish up your resume, reduce your debt, and aggressively start looking. It is better to go at your time and choosing than to have the company tell you to go.

6. I have seen one department suddenly being used as the 'exit door'. People would be advised that they now worked for that dept., even if they did not have the temperment or skills set, and within a few months many of them had quit out of frustration. Is your new department one of those? This can really make your life tough if it is.

Smile, learn, leave the building for lunch in the park, work well at the new position, all the while sending out your updated resume.

by smkirby

This is a tough position to be placed in but it isn't something that many of us have faced. If you live in an "at will" state, there is little you can do but, if you are over 40, make certain you understand your rights if you do wind up getting dismissed. Although you've gotten advise to think positively and make the best of a bad situation, I tend to agree with those who have advised you to update your resume and move on. This company did not have the Director ask if you would like to move to QA; they allowed him to just do it whether you liked it or not. That's enough to tell you that they are not interested in what you think, how you feel or whether or not you are happy with that company. Time to start the process to move on. Another company may be waiting for someone like you.

by smkirby

Sorry, but the first line should have read, "This is a tough position to be placed in but it isn't something that many of us have NOT faced."

I neglected to answer your question concerning whether or not this can be done in an "at will" state. You bet! This and much worse can be done, unfortunately. One thing the company probably knows is that you will not have the resources for legal action. I know we have government agencies that are supposed to look out for us but you have to have an air-tight and law-breaking case for them to show interest. Otherwise, they will give you permission to sue and good luck finding an attorney to even take your case.

Just do the best you can with the current job and get that resume out there! Before you leave, see if someone in the company will write a recommendation for you to take with you. Have them sign it and date it and you sign it as well. Thank them and go live a happier life!

by smcpeak

Find something else and leave. There are powers at play that if disturbed will likely result in your immediate termination. Take a deep breath, search for something else, and leave when the time is right. You still have an income.

by csobott

To my mind, this will always bug you and in time really fester if things go in a negative direction in the new job. Talking with HR is the way I would go. Let them know your not making waves just seeking information.
Did you get a raise or promotion to the new job? Are prospects better for you there? Are you a valued employee sent to the new job because the company thinks it needs you there? These are questions if answered to your satisfaction will ease your mind.
If however you take it personally and get beligerent this will put you in a negative light and cost you.

by csobott

To my mind, this will always bug you and in time really fester if things go in a negative direction in the new job. Talking with HR is the way I would go. Let them know your not making waves just seeking information.
Did you get a raise or promotion to the new job? Are prospects better for you there? Are you a valued employee sent to the new job because the company thinks it needs you there? These are questions if answered to your satisfaction will ease your mind.
If however you take it personally and get beligerent this will put you in a negative light and cost you.

by mcquibble

Sorry, Abe, but you've been screwed and there's really nothing you can do about it. Going to HR is like asking to be fired, and signing your own termination letter. HR is the tool of upper management, and they will ALWAYS look out for the interests of senior management first and foremost, regardless of the validity of your claim. Accept the "new" position gracefully (to keep the paychecks coming), and start looking for another position OUTSIDE your current company.

by firebringer

The possibilities are endless: the new boss wanted to mark his territory right away; he perceives you as a threat to something he is about to do; they want you to take the rap for something in QA etc. etc. Either way, try to get more information, but in an informal way. Get someone in HR drunk and all warmed up and slip this into a conversation. They are likely to blurt out whatever it is if they know. Another good source are secretaries. Get someone on your side and get the info. This might be a good practice for you in company politics.
Once you have the info, then it's a question whether you want to play it clean or play it dirty. Now it depends. If you are young, don't mess with it. Keep your record clean and find a better job. If you don't think you can find a good job at this point in your career, you can try to force the company into a good severance package by obtaining leverage (sensitive company info, that kind of thing). If they see you can screw them seriously, they would rather let you go nicely and keep themselves out of trouble. That would be taking a risk though, so you will need to see if it is worth it.
Good luck.

by jdclyde

It is nice to see someone post a courious and professional reply to a simple question.

To many times I see someone get flamed because of something someone else feels is "so obvious".

Maybe there is hope after all?

by maninthemiddle

I love the artistry of this plan. To define a kingdom, To prepair to pass it on when you leave and to stick it to the guy that replaced you all in the same post!

by jdclyde

This may not be the case here, on the other hand it just might be.

There are many times that someone thinks they are going along good, but if someone in management decides for reasons real or otherwise that they don't want you around, then they will find ways to get rid of that person.

Everyone has that one person they can't stand. Do you always have a reason? No.

By making legal changes that displease the employee, sometimes it gets the employee to quit.
Looks better to have someone quit than to fire them.

Hope this isn't the case with you, and good luck.

I would keep quiet, do my job and start looking elsewhere.

by webdvlpr

Request a meeting with the new Director & an HR rep. together and ask your questions. This way there's no "he said, she said" crap. Both HR & the director will have to be accountable for whatever is said in the meeting.
If you're still treated poorly afterwards as a result of the meeting, then it's pretty obvious you work for a piece of *&%@ company and should leave.

by christotg

Sorry, this is not what "take someone to task" means.

------------------------
Idiom:
take/call/bring to task
To reprimand or censure.
------------------------

Source: The American Heritage? Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright ? 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Found on www.dictionary.com

by richards_unsubcribe

This is an example of rank cronyism and patronage... they know it, and so do you. That?s why "they" told you to mind your own business or move on. Do so at your earliest opportunity... this company isn't worth working for. The signs are all there; so get your Resume/CV in order for you probably won't get the choice next time. As best you can, stay in the drivers seat, keep your mouth shut and your eyes open.

All too often, politics transcend all other issues... its cancerous, unfair, counter-productive and sadly in many countries of the world, very much a way of life. In the Philippines you go nowhere unless you are from the right family or "know someone" and that's why so many of their intelligent, well educated and highly skilled people leave the country for a better life elsewhere, often in the US or Canada.

by wayn3r

I just went through a similar experience, only in my situation my former position was eliminated. I suggest working with your new boss to make sure you understand their expectations, and that they are happy with your work. I would hope your career path would be a logical part of your performance review with your new boss, so you can get a feel for opportunities in your company. I'd stay clear of your former situation. Something is obviously going on, and you do not want to get caught in the middle. I'd be grateful you are still valued, or pursue a different job with another company if you are unhappy with your new role. My two cents.

by jimhm

Paul - we are all on the same page - just different ops on the subject - no one is right and no one is wrong - you all need to Chill down-under

by fredzepplen

Don't bitch, don't confront, it will get you nowhere but fired. You will find it easier to find a new job from the "i am" perspective than the "i was" perspective.
Start sending out resumes. In your cover letter, give your current managers name and phone number and tell him nicely that you need his help.
Good luck.

by dave_anderson99

If you have a good working relationship with your old boss set up an informal meeting off the premisus and find out how things are going with him/her. Then if the conversation is going well ask him/her a few non threating questions about the move. Usally even if they can't be specific you can get some general sence about what happened so you can be better prepaired for what the future may bring and what you need do about it. Oviously you've been in the company for a while you should be able to network with other friends in the company in a "off the record" way to find out what is going on with out putting them at risk.

by sleepin'dawg

This was a great reply. F--- 'em all if they can't take a joke and if they can't do you really want to keep working there???? Dust off the CV and start shopping it around. It might surprise you but if BigAbe is really any good it won't be long brfore his company becomes aware of his activities and his dissatisfaction. They might surprise him and and listen and fix his problem(s)
I have actually left companies and been rehired on
a higher level, returning to fire the idiot who tried to screw me over. Don't kid yourself; revenge is ever so sweet.

by shryer

At this point you have basically 2 choices.

Option 1, you can keep quiet, keep your head down, and hope that this demotion is the first step in your firing. I personally think the chances of this are slim, but who knows miricles sometimes happen. It would probably be a good time to update your resume and pay down your credit card balances anyway, just in case.

Option 2, accept that your time with this company/department is almost at an end. This is by far the more dangerous route as it may lead to a different job elsewhere or even unemployment, but if the goal of this operation was to downsize you, you may be here soon anyway.

At this point it's time to look at youself from a future employers perspective. The first question in any interview by a competant manager is going to be why you were demoted at your current position. Unless you have an answer for this the interview will mostly be over at that point, so you need an answer.

Start, as another has recommended, with a request for a sit down meeting with management and HR. If they refuse or don't answer your questions send a formal (i.e. written and signed) request to the manager(cc HR). If still no responce within 2 weeks send another formal letter. Keep copies of these letter at your home (or other offsite location) so they won't "disappear" when/if you are fired. If management tries to claim that you were demoted for performance reasons appeal that decision through HR. Remember anything bad they say about you is a smear on you and an attack on your future job prospects. Treat it that way unless they have the ammunition (performance reviews, letters of repremand, etc) to back it up.

Whether you get an answer or not you will have a responce when the question comes up in your interviews. You can either give them the reason you manager has stated (if they have given you one) or state that you have attempted to find a reason but were refused. Either way looks much better to that future employer than "I don't know."

One last suggestion, if you follow this advice. Start your inquiries from a self-help perspective. Phrases like, "I need to know so I can improve my future performance" or "I would like to work on my self-improvement" or even "The lack of detail is hurting hurting my current work performance" stand a better chance of success than "Why did you do it?".

by sleepin'dawg

Nowhere on MY resume do I list typing skills and that most definitely is the source of my errors. However, you got the basic thought regardless and since I so seldom type anything in these forums I wasn't aware of any capability for spell check etc. Perhaps you could help???? Hmmmm????
Oh, by the way, being a manager, I've usually got someone to do the typing chores for me and willingly admit I'm a total klutz on a keyboard but that's not why they pay me the big bucks.
(Pardon the bragging but that's upper 6 figures plus bonuses and stock options. The only reason I'm on this forum today is it's Canada's national
day and I'm the only one in the office. Maybe that explains the bucks AND my two divorces.) Another aside, judging by your address you also are Canadian so what are you doing on this forum today unless you are like me and just killing time??? If you truly thought about it you might have seen I was trying to be constructive in my criticism; trying to indicate skills that were lacking but could be easily remedied by a semester or two in a local community college (whoops almost put a "d" in there. Ha Ha).

by beverlyincincy

My first impression is that your new manager may be doing someone a favor and you may be someone that they felt wouldn't make a move. I have seen this kind of thing before. Take heart, reality will probably soon kick in and they may be asking you back. Also, sometimes a new manager doesn't last long, especially one that acts first without getting all the facts! Give it a little time. Good luck

by sopic7000

Having been a former manager in a medium sized office, I strongly agree with the posts of Golfloon, Nlyons, and sbruce. You do need to assess whether the current directors and HR are toxic to the company as a whole, or just towards some, and/or if they would be willing/able to give you an honest assessment of their choice to move you. A toxic upper management would indicate a change of career; an honest assessment would indicate a change of your attitude towards your new position. An honest assessment will not come from toxic mangement. It is possible that you are being moved out the door, and it is also possible that you may be well suited for this change, regardles of how it was verbalized and given to you. You, and only you, can truly rate your own performance, as one of the posts suggests(I believe it was from Cindi). When you have been truly honest with yourself (and you may have already done this), you will be in a better mental position to consider your options as listed from the posts: i.e. stay and learn, or move on. As the saying goes, "when they give you lemons, make lemonade". YOU, only, have the choice to make. Do not let others make the choice for you, but use their wisdom to guide you. Above all, do not be hasty, rash, or rude. Do be inquisitive, see others in the best light, until proven otherwise, and do your best in all circumstances. Good luck.

by sleepin'dawg

It wouldn't surprise me if you were and that puts me in mind of that old cliche: "Those who can do; those who can't teach." In case you're wondering, you might see why so many of us on the corporate level complain about the product being turned out by the educational systems of both Canada and the US. Read some of the other answers. Roger in Texas seems to have a good slant on BigAbe's problem and a reasonably level approach to a solution. If you check out a lot of the other answers you will see scads of typing and spelling errors, most on a par with mine but many a lot worse.
What I was trying to convey was that the problem may not be a work problem so much as a social one.
Maybe the new director just doesn't like BigAbe for whatever reason. Maybe it's because they are from different social backgrounds and BigAbe doesn't point his little finger when sipping his tea or coffee. Who knows???? The thing is BigAbe is lower down on the food chain and a director can and will have his way in building his team. There is only one exception to this and that is if the problem is based on ethnicity and if that's the case; stick a fork in the director. He's done. If he worked for me I would personally fire his ass out the door. His feet might not even touch the floor on the way out. No company in the civilized world would tolerate anything of this nature regardless of the morality of the situation. I shudder to think of the legalities in a situation like that. If that were the case and BigAbe could prove it; he would have that company by the short and curlies. He wouldn't have to worry about preserving his job. He would have to worry about what he was going to do with all his new found wealth.
So Richards you've flamed me. Do you have the guts or necessary male appendages to reply?????
I await with bated breath which all things considered is better than no breath at all.

by richards_unsubcribe

There is an old saying..."let sleeping dogs lie". Well I guess this one just woke up and he's growling a bit, so... OK Fido here's a bone for you.

I never said I was a teacher or perfect...

Example: I previously wrote a comment headlined... you can read it further down called "The Cancer of Croneyism". Well lo... I misspelled cronyism... I tossed in that extra "e" but spell check caught it in the text of the message.

So often we fire off these little missives... sometimes without first checking, but that's what these forums are all about... are they not simply off-the-cuff comments and thoughts about concerns and issues that affect us all? No one expects nor wants perfection, but unnecessary criticism of our all-so-human failings especially in a venue such as this stifle the creative exchange and expression of ideas that make the forum so interesting in the first place.

Enough of this... It's Canada Day and I'm heading down to the "Inner Harbour" tonight and watch the fireworks... there's been plenty enough on here.

Richard
VA7AA
Victoria
British Columbia

by pedwards17

I read the post by the "pot" and was getting ready to reply when I read Richard's. I consider myself to be a decent writer and communicator, but I make a conscious effort NOT to criticize others' abilities in these areas. We're writing posts in a forum, not memos in a corporate environment. While I agree that communication skills are more important than ever, there is a time when "conversational" writing is appropriate. Like in a forum...

by jeff

I have been in the field for many years. Have worked as PC tech all the way up to the top IT manager of a corporation. I now own a computer and network support company.

You have to speak frankly with the director. However, Talk in confidence to HR first. Be sure you make it clear to the HR Manager (do not speak a clerk) that you expect the conversation to be confidential and not discussed with director in advance of your meeting. This will cover your butt if there is a reprisal after speaking with the director.

You have to know facts. Otherwise your imagination will create all sorts of senarios that will effect your performance as well as your peace of mind. You can probably see this in many of responses you received on this forum.

Good Luck,

Jeff McIntyre