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National Do Not Call List, a scam.

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by oz_media 2 views

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The Canadian NDNCL has been proven a scam.

In Canada, the CRTC mandates that all telemarketers MUST adhere to numbers placed on a DNC list. When you ask for your number to be removed, the calling agency must update their list so that the next outfit does not buy YOUR number, or that's how its supposed to work anyway. Rude people usually get added to a call back list instead and marked as a key call, whereas polite and patient people will usually be removed from lists.

So, enter the national do not call list. Again, this list MUST be available to telemarketers so that they can cross reference existing lists. What do you need to become an approved telemarketer that can download the national do not call list? Nothing. Just annual subsrciption payment, $50 for such a list is DIRT cheap indeed! That only pays for 50 numbers from most other list providers.

Just visit the website, click the link and say you are a telemarketer and you get a list of ALL numbers added to the national do not call list.

Now, any legit operation using the list, that continues to call numbers even though they are removed, will be fined. But what about all the others? Anyone in the world can download a copy of it and their countries restrictions may and often are different, meaning they can call you with scams and there's nothing you can do about it.

So, don't be in a hurry to register on the NDNCL, you'll only get more calls.

32 replies

by oz_media

well it turns out that the FCC has done the exact same thing. Its hard not to really, they MUSt make it available to all telemarketing companies, and they don't restrict it to country or originating calls.

As such, ANYONE can pretend to be a telemarketer and those outside of the USA (Guam, Gayana and all the other sketchy scammers that scam little old ladies for credit car info), can use and abuse such a list as they are not bound by the same marketing regulations that the FCC places on US companies.

DO NOT register on the national do not call registry, many people who have done so now get more calls than ever, there's a non stop line of calls coming in to the CRTC with mass callign complaints since registering on Canada's list. With the same regulations applied in the USA, and a lot more telemarketing companies there, it only stands to be even worse in the US.

by seanferd

there are still companies in the U.S. that use the list in a manner inconsistent with its labeling. Been in the news, recently.

edit: sp

by the scummy one

There are exceptions for charities, etc.. I never received calls from charities until I was put on the do not call list, then I was getting them at a minimum of 1 per week. Telling each one not to contact me, it took almost a year for those to stop.

by oz_media

They can call you and do not have to adhere to the NDNC reistry. they are not deemed telemarketing, as their foundations are deemed publicly known and therefore do not require marketing to ensure brand penetration or recognition, canvassing laws give them extra room.

by ontheropes

Now the only companies that call are the telephone companies who try to get us to switch to their long distance service which we've dropped completely. Those calls have even dropped off.

I do remember at first thinking it was a mistake but it has worked pretty good for us.

by notsochiguy

Nunbers to local officials are listed online.

Numbers put on Do Not Call list results in spam.

Methinks I have a fun filled weekend activity lined up.

Thanks!!

]:)

by the scummy one

after being told the same by them. However, I was not called by them until 3 weeks after registering for the do not call list on an old land phone. I have since moved to another phone (VOIP) and have not received hardly any SPAM. Had it for well over a year

by dhcdbd

I inform the unwanted caller that I have arranged with my telco to charge $35.00 per minute to listen to unsolicited sales calls. If they wish to avoid such a charge they must immediately remove my number from their database.

The unscrupulous hang up immediately and do not call back. The scroupulous firms add me to their internal do not call list. In either case I win.

by oz_media

You must get some pretty stupid callers. Any predictive dialler would not complete the call to a billed number to begin with.

Secondly, it would be a cold day in hell before you ever found a judge to rule it in your favour and it WOULD take a judge to get any money from them.

Having worked for the CRTC as a QA manager, monitoring telemarketing agents all over North America, I'd say you either have really stupid callers or they are very smart and know when not to waste their time on the phone with you.

Telemarketers (being tracked on a cost per minute basis)don't make money from people that don't want to talk to them and they don't keep their jobs that way either, drop the call and on you go to someown that will hear you out and spend their money.

There are MANY that will talk with them and
hear them out, buy products etc.

Why waste their time with someone who clearly isn't interested in why they are calling?

I doubt anyone really falls for the pay per call threat though, whether it works in the long run or not.

One of the best I heard though was durign long distance deregulation, in Canada the system was set up differently than the USA, and two years later.

Our local telco's (operated by US owned GTE) were mandated is that they could NOT offer a lower price than a competing company, otherwise they'd retain a monopoly and Canadian carriers would fail in building a competitive client base.

While listening in on one agent in another province (Ontario I belies it was)I heard about six different call and all of them cut him off and said they were not interested.

The next person said the same thing so he very politely said, "I understand you don't want to talk to a telmarketer, but can I ask what it is that you are not interested in?"

Prospect: "yeah, whatever you're selling."

Caller "I'm not actually tryig to sell yuo anything but just wanted to let you know that you can now get your long distance bill from a Canadian company that is regulated to charge you less than Bell." (Bell being the local, US owned, provider in Ontario).

Prospect "You liar, Bell is a provincially owned company and Sprint is a US company! (partially true in that Sprint US is US owned)

Caller: "I can appreciate that, most people in canada think their servcie is Canadian based, but in fact GTE owns MOST of Canada's local service providers. Spritn CANADA, is a wholly Canadian owned company traded by CallNet Enterprises out of toronto), they do have a 12% non equity share invested by Sprint USA though, for use of teh more common name and ability to cross the border and use lines at a lower cost, thus you pay less."

After a few more minutes the prospect was a customer and saved in his bills.

Like I say, there are GOOD telemarketers and crappy ones. teh good ones probe, offer a rebuttal or two and are on to the next call. The crappy ones hang on like a loose tooth and stuble along as they beg for a deal.

They have SO many ways of screwing over a prospect that is rude and hangs up or calls them ames though, you are usually best off being relly polite and asking to be removed from the list. Although I was there to make sure telemarketers didn't misrepresent the various companies they sold for, a lot of the time they will place your number in queue for a call every day at dinnertime if you hang up or are rude. That list is then sold and circulated with your number as a key contact, they will target you more and mroe the ruder you get.

How many times have you hear dsomeone REALLY po'd at telemarketing saying I just hang up on them when they call, I told them I'm not interested a hundred times etc. That's the result of poor call handling.

by dhcdbd

My primary number is a cell phone. Meaning it is a billed number. It is for me and my customers to use during the course of business. My land line is reserved for DSL and has a fax connected to it 24/7.

So much for predictive dialers.

by jamesrl

Bell Canada was never owned by GTE. It was regional division of AT&T till 1956, when AT&T was forced to divest itself of it. It then became a publicly traded Canadian company. Surely you aren't that old....

GTE owned big chunks of BCTel and Quebec Tel, up until the Telus merger. I recall this because in the bad old days BC Tel wouldn't buy Nortel equipment, they preferred AT&T stuff.

James

by seanferd

is exempt as well.

Never mind the ones that claim that, or seem to think that you have done business with them, when in fact you've done no such thing.

by tonythetiger

In fact, it is little more than a treasure trove of people who someone else thinks are good leads.

by oz_media

People think they will not get telemarketing calls, therefore phone scams are easier as they are afforded more credibility when saying they are with a bank, or even confirmation for the directory itself. "We can keep you on this list and can update global lists for only $19.00/yr, I just need your credit card number. Is it Visa or MasterCard? Mastercard, number.......?
Do you collect AirMiles? Great that'll get you 500 point right there, not bad for only 19 dollars, right Ms. Linkclicker?."

Its SO easy, I've seen it done, recorded and investigated/reported it countless times when with the CRTC.

by oz_media

You said calling your provider and requesting a $35 charge for calls. That is not a cell phone or dedicated DLS/fax line, that is a 900 lease line. And what makes you think a dialer wouldn't call your fax? As soon as the DTMF handshake is returned, it hangs up.

If you tell a caller it is a cell phone, in Canada, they must stop calling and you can simply have your bill adjusted to remove all such calls and remove any associated charges. As our CRTS regulations are usually based on your own, but follow a year or so later so as to view any issues with US regulation changes, I am sure the same applies there to.

P.S. I predictive dialer will not connect to a 900# and any other numbers that are billed that way must have a recording in the beginning of the call to notify of time and charges applied, at which time a predictive dialer will hang up and no cost is incurred.

I worked for four major telecom providers and the CRTC over 11 years, this is not guess work. I worked for the regulating body and monitored the companies making the calls, it was my job to make sure they toed the line and traveled back and forth across Canada working with local QA managers and IT staff to ensure their dialer's were set up and operating within regulation.

by seanferd

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by oz_media

usually if you stay on the line you will be passed to alive caller. ask for teh quality assurance manager and they shold help, but yuo can't win with all of them, especially the hokey ones that use automated scripting. They are usually out of town calls, that use recordings to filter and save on LD charges.

by dhcdbd

Real funny that I have a 900 number; last I looked the number was 801-6xx-yyyy. Only 99 numbers from a 900 number.

I agree that a predictive dialer will disconnect on a fax and this is why a fax is on that line.

Simple fact: if I have an interest in your product, I will call you. If you call me without my expressing interest, I don't care if you have the best widget ever invented, I will not buy it from you - meaning unsolicited sales call. If your call is solicited, then you have my cell number.

I am known to walk away from sales rebuttals without listening once I indicate no interest.

Unfortunately, in the U.S., legislation was passed to allow unsolicited sales calls to cell phones subject to the Cellphone Do Not Call List. That is my dime they are spending to call me on an unwanted product. Since there are large fines for a sufficient number of complaints that are seldom applied, a simple charge back works better. I have never had to use it and don't expect to. As soon as Company Sales identifies itself, I identify that they are calling a cellphone and that I charge to listen and notify them that I am on the Do Not Call List and that if they insist on my listening I will have to charge time. The reputable companies immediately either push the magic key that put the number in their DB's as DNC or forwards me to the appropriate dept., the scurrilous one hang up.

by oz_media

seriously what makes your head work? You make no sense at all, none whatsoever.

First of all you say you will have the phone company add a per call charge to your line, then you say you have a shared DSL line and a standard POTS line, neither of which can be managed by a DMS250 or GTD5 in order to add detailed time charges to them. Now all of a sudden you are talking about something else again.

In short, you haven' tgot a lcue what you are on about and asre just runnign in circles looking for some moot point you can be deemed cporrect on, you been hanging out with JD?

"Simple fact: if I have an interest in your product, I will call you."

No that's a stupid not simple.

the reason many companies call you is that their offers are NOT advertised, therefore you DON'T know about it and CAN'T call them. It's an ancient telemarketing objection that begs the oldest rebuttal they have, not clever, not accurate.

Take for example these idiots that were paying an extra 27% for their long distance services form a US based company that held a Canadian monopoly.

SO Sprint Canada calls and offers them a beter LD deal.

"If I wanted it I would call you for it, simple as that."

BullshIt! You had no idea Sprint was a Canadian company that is mandated to charge you less and that you currently deal with aUS monopoly that isn unable to charge you a penny lower than teh very highest market price.

So YOU lose, YOU are stupid and YOU pay mroe when you coul dhave kept your money in YOUR pocket and invested teh money you do pay into a Canadian company. FACT.

So how would you go about calling THEM up and sorting that out if they didn't call> You couldn't, false claim.

"I am known to walk away from sales rebuttals without listening once I indicate no interest."

Yeah, smart arent' you? You lose again.

You do realize that in the case given above, you'd be making a concious decision to purposely pay more for yoru service than others do, how smart is THAT, sly boots? not.

Its always teh guy who THINKS he's smart and has teh answers that turns out to be misinformed, ignorant to reality and winds up on a daily must call list for being a smart arse to the wrong caller.

such as "and that I charge to listen and notify them that I am on the Do Not Call List and that if they insist on my listening I will have to charge time. "

Any caller with half a brain has heard that a million times and know that you are full of shIte and you would wind up in court for years before ever bein gtold you'd wasted your time and money pursuing it.

There are many who will happily oblige you and remove your number, apologize for the intrusion and politely end teh call. This can be done withotu some stupid tactic though, just simple request from a polite prospect will have them take care of it, again they don't WANT to waste time with you, they have better people to call.

Your method of handling the call is more likely to get you slapped in a repeated call back every day at least ONCE if not the maximum allowable three calls a day.

I had two calls on my cell phone, explained it was acell number nothign else) and they apologize and remove it form their list, knowing very well that I may be paying for their call. I've been asked if there was another number they should call on, but I don't have a land line so they are SOL.

by jaqui

any "list of numbers" for such a purpose would have to be available.

and that means all you have done is give your number out.

seemed obvious to me, and most people I know.

by oz_media

The world's not full of Linux users, look at all those still using Windows ME, I rest my case.

by boxfiddler Hot topic

I didn't get my Community Newsletter this week! Thanks for reminding me. Added fuel to my next b*tch post. :D

by oz_media

My names not on the list and I wanted more swag! actually I can't complain TR's been great that way for me. They have really nice shirts too!

by dhcdbd

Guess not. Told you it was out of the box thinking, but you fail to follow any paradigm but your own. It takes one button on my phone to forward three way to a 900 number.

You are way out of your element.

Let me see, I pay way more for a service that someone else offers for less. I get a call from DirectTV while I am working on a client program, as an example. They are eager to inform me of how much better than DishTV is. Funny, I do not have either, and have no interest at all in subscription TV. I have one TV in the house, it is set up for off air digital and is on less then two hours per week. Waste of my time. Now, the interruption to my thought process for the two two five minutes it takes to respond to the caller takes me half and hour to 45 minutes to recover from. Lost time for me from something that if I wanted in the first place I would have had.

Another example of something I use: internet access. Same work scenario. Comcast calls to tell me how much better their service is than Qwest. I have already researched the issue and decided that because I can not handle peak traffic slowdown or packet filtering that Comcast is inappropriate, even though they could theoretically double my throughput in off peak time, but slow it considerable during peak use. Why pay more for less? Much of what I do depends on the internet. Same lost time.

Another example,Scamster C calls to sell me auto maintenance insurance. First, unwanted service for several reasons, if it were legit. He hangs up. To carry this further, my car recently needed the rear struts replaced and I went to 15 different shops for estimates. The estimates ranged from $280 to $1000 for the labor with parts additional. Driving down the street, I crossed a shop, something told me to go inside. I inquired and was told $50 per side if I provided the parts. I went to the parts store bought the two struts at $63 each. Took them to the guy's shop. Picked the car up the next day. Total cost:$226. The parts, humm... all the shops I went to refused to put in any part that I might bring in and the least expensive shop charged $135 for what I payed $63 for. Again a rip off. BTW: it is the same exact part made by the same exact manufacturer, with the same exact part number. The guy warranties his work. A little research payed off because I had the car repaired for less than the lowest cost of labor. Why you might ask. The guy I now go to does no advertising except word of mouth and has no sales staff and he has you chase parts.

Another example, same work scenario. I have been researching widget z because I need a new one. I have contacted your company and notified them of my interest. I have also indicated a time when I do not expect to be busy. Salesman Z calls at the proper time, then I have the time to listen to him. If his product does not meet my need, then why buy it? But also, inform him of how the product would fail and ask if there is anything they carry that would meet the need. You may make the sale, but it will not be a decision that is reached instantaneously. No lost work time. If something has come up, then the call is rescheduled.

Now I have had sales training by some of the best - companies that sell seed stock to farmers in the mid-west. I kind of know the games. The fact being that I do not care if you have the best widget invented, if not presented to me when I have the time and in a reputable fashion, you get no face or ear time. If you present your widget to me in the fashion I have dictated, you will be researched as to the need and may or may not make a sale, but you have a better chance because you are not interrupting something when I have no time to devote to it.

by oz_media

Let's twist again, like we did last summer! one would think that, instead of making it up as you go, you could have just said you have 3-way calling and will know in advance who is calling you and foward that line to a 900 extension.

But instead you came up with some cock and bull story about callign your phone company and having them apply a $35 charge to your line.

as for being out of my element, I have been designing and implementing buseinss telecom solutions for over a deacade, beginning with the intorudction of BRI/PRI connections and working through to fibre and VoIP, I am far from being out of my element, LOL :D

Why would you pay for off premise call forwarding, unless of course you telework from home and need to foward calls to the office or your cell phone when not in or something. in which case a cheap KSU would do the job for a lot less money. Do you run a PBX at home? nope, at best a mutiline KSU but your description even falls short of that, your idea of what you now say is OPCF is a complete waste of money.

The example I stated was a specific example of LD services after deregulation in CANADA. It was used ot illustrate WHY these companies conduct business over the phone and not in your face. Plus they could not offer their pricing if it was from an office or retail outlet with high overhead costs. however most will mail and fax info out as requested, and even have a main office in large cities, just not the active marketing costs of promotions from such a location.
These companies often just farm out those calls to an active call centre hat markets several products, and pay by the hour per seat for a guarunteed number of calls per hour, per seat.

The FCC did no such thing for US carriers which is why it is such a mess down there. As always the CRTC follows a few years behind US deregulation so as to prepare for the errors in rushed legislation on teh carriers that defeat the purpose of deregulation.

[i]"Now, the interruption to my thought process for the two two five minutes it takes to respond to the caller takes me half and hour to 45 minutes to recover from."[/i]

Are you completely retarded or is it just severe autism or telephones that slow down your brain processes? Don't answer that, your posts speak louder than words already.

your examples are ridiculous to say the very least, at no time have I ever said that ALL telemarkjeting calls are a way to save you money, I gave a single, very specific example of how it is handled incorrectly IN CANADA. Wake the f up already!

Rear struts?
What car is it that you drive which incorporates rear struts?
The reason shops don't install your own parts, as a rule, is that their insurance will not cover them if you have an accident. I am a licenced mechanic too remember.

$50 a side US for rear shocks is about double what the real labour cost SHOULD be anyway. Just because someone else wants to charge you more, doesn't mean that paying for an hours labour for a half hour job is a good deal.

Your scheduling of calls after seeking out a sales rep is also completely irrelevant to the topic at hand or anything I have said about it.

" If you present your widget to me in the fashion I have dictated, you will be researched as to the need and may or may not make a sale, but you have a better chance because you are not interrupting something when I have no time to devote to it. "

Okay then, so now you are trying to equate a professional sales call to telemarketing?

Telemarketing is a nummbers game, nobody is going to take such time to close a deal. the whole focus is that is is more cost effective to quickly call 10,000 people than it is to work a sale into 100 people. efficiency keeps prices down and enables them to compete in a very competitive market.

When was the last time you had a telemarketer try and close you on a new car or major appliance over the phone?

As for your "sales training", training in a single industry is not seen as sales training by any hiring managers, it is simply how to sell a specific product line.

Sales trainin gcomes with certification as it build on understanding foundations, not specifics. 7 steps to sales? 5 steps sot presentation? 3 steps and styles of closing? Mirroring techniques? What part of thise 7 initial steps do you use closed end questioning as opposed tio open ended questions? What is a trial close and the next step? No, don't have a clue do you.

I've taught sales courses, and sold just abotu everythign under the sun from quick close to 6 month plans with boards of directors to hard close deals etc.

Again Chubby, let's twist again, like we did last summer! You'll find some way to reiterate and twist your comments and find SOME fact in your BS, but it may take you another 20 posts to evolve it the way a few others here like to do.

You can make your point when it is absolutely irrelevant to the topic or discussion at hand, other than that you have said NOTHING at all that is relevant or supports your previous BS assertions.

And you say I am out of my league, that's ripe!

I suppose this will take at least 4 days for you to get your head around and gain your thought process back, especially if a 30 second call loses you for 45 minutes.

nyuk, nyuk, nyuk, what a maroon!

by oz_media

Stentor, you are probably familiar with them then.

GTE US, was the controlling body of Stentor, dominating the equity shares of all Stentor members and was thus controlling body of our provincial telco's, including Bell. With exception of AGT (now Telus) and MBT prior to deregulation.

Speakng of old, I sold Nortel to BCTel before they merged, when they were still owned by GTE. All of the newer LD switches in BC are Nortel switches, even the old switches GTD5's are Nortel.

Most BCTel offices operated a Nortel Medidian 1 system for decades.

You must be going back several decades, certainly before the '86 telecom act was introduced. BCTel was Wiltel's biggest Nortel customer for ages, but they ONLY bought from WilTel as WilTel was the only Western Canadian office that was authorized to sell M1's here.

their entire Centrex system, designed in the late 70's was 100% Nortel Meridian digital phones for all government buildings operated from Nortel switches located at the closest CO.

It's the old digital service that they now lease out to residential customers in order to compete with alternate land line leasing companies. they ditched it when they brought ISDN/PRI & BRI lines into schools and such, which are now mainly ADSL or fibre depending on location.

by jamesrl

Stentor was the agency that all the Canadian Telcos belonged to, which allowed them to basically communicate with each other, standardize their offerings and work together. One of my old political pals was chair for a time. Stentor didn't own shares in telcos, telcos were members of Stentor.

Stentor was a member organization, but it was Bell Canada that controlled about half the council (because of its shares in MBT, Alliant etc), and as I mentioned Bell Canada had nothing to do with GTE.

What I was referring to in terms of BCTel not buying Nortel was in COs - Central office switching, which is where the money is. Of course that changed in the mid 90s, when AT&T severed Lucent, Bell Canada severed Nortel, and even AT&T bought Nortel equipment.

James

by oz_media

I don't have many friends THAT dumb either, perhaps a couple just to amuse us at the pub. Of course TR is always an exception to any logical rule.

by jaqui

I would want to be around that train wreck when anyone that dumb got drunk. :D

by dhcdbd

I told you the way it was. It is your problem if you do not like what I presented or can not wrap your mind about it.

You have no idea of what I do or how I do it, or why I do it. Let it suffice to say that at any given time I may be at home, a clients business or home, working on code or a network problem, or completing a remote network back up, or for that matter providing tech support to a customer, or working on six things at once.

You have chosen to be deliberately blind. I have no need to present to you my business operations. The fact is that I am self employed and choose to be because I do not like the cr*p that goes with the corporate world, partially the close minded junk that you are focused on and the unwillingness to examine idea's that you have not thought of.

Oh, when you are self employed you hear from everyone about why something can't work and why you should work with some company because self employment just can not work. Funny, contrast with all the self employed.

I am done with this discussion.

This discussion is closed to new replies.