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Promotion Withheld

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by justkim

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What should you do when your boss continuously makes promises to promote you but never follows through? The excuse is always that I need more experience but I have been "experiencing" this job for over 4 1/2 years and have yet to be promoted to manager. He never tells me specific reasons. Just that I need more experience.

71 replies

by maxwell edison

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If you feel that your current place of employment is limiting your opportunities, it may be time to update the old resume, and seek the management position you desire elsewhere.

by neillgarris 03

I advise peole under me to keep one step ahead of us, the employer, which is equally important for the employer since it ensures that staff are motivated & know where they are going. Over 4 years indicates something is really wrong. Make concrete, reasonalble plans in the company and outside and take the first set that works. Sounds as if teh outside one will!

by gauravbahal

Harris is right. Get the requirements / responsibilities of the posistion you want. And make sure you are performing at that level. And make sure these requirements come from your appraiser and the reviewer....it should be on mail and open for review later.

Perform at those tasks and then fight for the promotion. Boss and ur Boss's boss. You shall get it, though there might be some ruffled feathers.

If you can live with that go for it.

Regards
Gaurav

by gambi

If you feel that you still want to stay with the company and are "waiting" for the position, "advertise" yourself in that position. I have been acting in my a position higher than what I was emplyed to do and the only reason I have not got the job is Black Empowerment (I am from SA). I however have decided to have all my business cards and email signatures stating that I am the IT manager. I do not get any monetry reward except that when I leave the company I can put "IT Manager" on my CV and take the credit.

Think about it!

by shaggysheld

What the heck are you going on about?

Just because you have IT Manager on a business card does not entitle you the position of IT Manager.

by testyttesterson

Hey,

That's a great idea! I never thought of that. I'm going to go out and buy business cards with CIO printed on them right now! I didn't know it was that simple. Then I can start applying to upper-management positions as soon as they're back from the printer. I should be making 6-7 figures by the end of the month! Woo Hoo.

by ojsimms

I used to have an employer/friend/boss who worked with me up the ranks when we were both somewhat new to the game. She became a manager of a company, but she never would consider me as a manager type, because she could not, would not let go of the earlier images of me. However, others would view my Masters in Project Management and over 35 years in the business an ultimate asset. She continuously hired other less qualified people as managers, and have been very dissapointed having to fire them both. I just had to accept that I was never going to change her opionion of my management qualifications no matter if I had twice the amount of education and experience. Now, when I apply for manager jobs, I am held in very high regard. Sometimes, you just gotta believe in yourself.

by thelastword

It's interesting to hear that females do this too. At my present job which I started two years ago, the manager has completely stereotyped me and bypassed me for everything probably because I had just come back from two years off (in school again so was a little rusty), before that I was doing great and well-respected. Now the guy just makes a joke out of me and constantly hires contractors to do my job. Top this off with that he leers at me and whenever I go into his office to discuss something serious he makes wierd sexual comments out of stuff I say like 'how do you want it?' becomes something else and stuff like that. He makes me really uncomfortable at that point I become really ineffective. I have over ten years experienece as a developer, a degree in computer science and now another technical diploma, I have good references. The deal is that this is an institution so they don't have a need for project deadlines or anything else, plus this guy can do whatever he wants and has limited accountability, ie. old boys club that reaches the top really quickly. It is the most miserable humiliating nightmare I have ever experienced. His latest trick is to purposely give me as menial assignments as possible just for the fun of it. I'd actually like to punch his lights out. This is not a joke. This is real. So in the meantime while I am pounding out resumes, my skills are hanging on by a thread. This is quite awful. I feel this is a case of sexual harrassment in a way or something.

by maxwell edison

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At your next performance review (or sooner), ask him to specify the exact experience he believes you are lacking. If he says that you need X, Y and Z, then either show him that you already have it, or make plans to get it.

Get him to say, You need more experience .......... (fill in the blank).

If he won't fill in the blank with some specific things, ask him why he can't, or won't do that.

by mtnweb

Ask your boss for specific experience that you are lacking. Hopefully you have a good enough relationship with him that you can sit down, discuss that he has promised to promote you but hasn't because he says you need more experience. Tell him you want to get the particular experience he is seeking and ask him how that might be accomplished.

Of course, if he can't give you specific answers, you should look elsewhere for a position where advancement is possible. Don't waste your time with the boss who is continually "dangling the carrot in front of you" to exploit your talents and skills. You have the luxury of being employed and can stay in this position until you can find a better one with more opportunities. People with good IT and people skills are always in demand.

by oz_media

I'd be taking my 'experience' to the other guys. If yur effort is not appreciated or recognized where you are, perhas it will be somewhere else.

BUT....Is there a management position available for you where you are?

Is it one of those typically old fashioned companies that believes in hiring a bunch of middle management people and only one boss?

Have you asked the boss what specifically he feels you need to work on inorder to qualify for management? If HE can't tell you, then he is simply brushing you off. This may be due to several reasons,

a) he's afraid that if you are a manager he will have less control over operations, as he feels threatened by your modern IT knowledge.

b) He simply doen't feel you are what HE wants as management. Rather than get personal he just says you don't have enough experience.

c) It is genuine, for what he is wanting you simply don't fit the bill. Although you do have a few years experience, many companies wouldn't consider it sufficient for a management role

When I have hired management, I don't look for certs or experience, I look for what I want to hire as a manager, everything else can be taught or learned if you have the right person.

by hereinoz

It is also possible that there really isn't a management job to be promoted into, and the boss is just spinning the promotion line to keep you keen and enthusiastic.

It is a bit like "kids, be good, do the right thing and one day we will take you to Disneyland". Eventually you wake up that you are 45 years old and you never went to Disneyland.

The point here is, even though you never went to Disneyland, you have had a good life, you have enjoyed yourself, and really didn't miss the trip to Disneyland anyway.

Enough of the metaphor, back to the situation.

Don't sweat too much about whether you are promoted to "manager" or not. The big question to ask yourself is how you feel about getting out of bed in the morning and heading off to work.

If you get up thinking "Now I have to go to that sh**hole of a place for the next 10 hours", then being promoted to manager will not fix that.

If, on the other hand, you wake up with enthusiasm and at least feel comfortable about going to work, (we don't have to actually enjoy it - just be comfortable with it), what's your problem? Just do the work and enjoy life.

Believe me, being a "Manager" is not always what it is cracked up to be, and sometimes the best way to stuff up a great job is to become the manager and have to put up with all the corporate BS that goes with it.

Sometimes we push to become "manager" for the extra money it involves, only to find that the extra money just gets sucked up in our expanded lifestyle, and we find that while we were content and comfortable being the employee, we actively dislike being the "manager" but we are now stuck in it due to the workplace assumption that "you can't step backwards", and of course the extra money that we now "need".

Be careful about pushing for a position that will bring you more status, as it often comes at a higher price.

It's the quality of the job (or as Microsoft would call it - the Workplace Experience) that matters, not the title and the eventual salary.

But then, I'm only an old fart who has been through all of this stuff and am now quite happy doing what I do, letting the boss who is half my age have all the anguish.

Its a damn peaceful place to be.

Cheers,

Alan

by mark

My own experience has shown me that becoming the manager can actually be part of your undoing!

I joined an organisation and, as part of the role, became part of the Senior Management Team. I have since "resigned" from that team because it is serves no purpose other than to boost the ego's of the other members.

I have also suffered health wise since taking up this post because the organisation just threw the post together.

Anyway ... the result? The resume has been updated and I am now looking to take my skills to someone that gives a damn and I shall be looking after me :-)

So ... look at what your skills are and what you really want to do and go after something that matches that!

I wish you all the best.

by sue's comment

Seems daft but being a manager is such a very different job. Is it status? Do you want/need more money? Are you fed up doing what you are doing?

Appearing disinterested may be the way forward. Enjoy what you are doing now!

by thechas

In many organizations, promotions to management level positions are as much about office politics as they are about technical skills.

How are your "people" skills?

How are you perceived by other managers?

You may need to work on both in order to be promoted to a manager position.

If on the other hand, you have created any enemies in management, your "best" option for advancement is to change jobs.

Chas

by tomsal

Here..its pretty silly how people come to be called "managers". You are basically tapped on the shoulder when the previous manager quits or is fired and they go "Oh you are now the new manager of XYZ department".

Supervisors are even more silly, they grant folks with no better skills than they just type well and do their job, so then they are tapped for supervisor title. We have folks here with zero leader skills, zero skills in how to deal with folks and barely 23 years of age who are supervisors.

Of course here titles mean little, unless you are high up the food chain then there is *some* meaning given to them.

So the moral of the story is -- DO NOT BEAT YOURSELF UP OVER THIS...if your boss can't see your hardwork, skills, quality of work and if you are good at following policy/procedure, etc. then go elsewhere if he is playing around with you on the promotion thing.

Perhaps your "promotion" would only wind up be a title only thing. ;)

Titles are nice I guess for some folks, but a fancy title alone doesn't pay the mortgage or allow me to buy that sleek 60 inch plasma HDTV ;)

by jeff.allen

I know this one well. I don't frequent the same bars as the management team so that lessens my chance from the start...
After 4+ years, your Manager sees you as the job you do. The only real way to get that promotion is if your manager leaves and is replaced by one who doesn't know you and your position, or, leave this company and apply as a Manager in another.

by fluxit

Attilla the Hun would say that in order to kill a tiger one must surround it from every direction. In this way, paralysis sets in and it never attacks since it is so busy trying to figure out which direction to attack first. Your current boss has you surrounded and is you are in paralysis.

In the workplace there is little room for advancement unless you are in a large organization. You'll need to change jobs in order to advance.

Beware. Employers know exactly what they are willing to pay. Either you are willing to accept that or if you negotiate you are coming in too low to start with. If you have the ezperience they seek you'll be over qualified and they cannot pay you what you are worth. If you don't have the experience or training they can't pay you top dollar. You'll have to balance these things.

In my professional opinion, it would be better for you to build your own business. It is far more reqarding and challenging. If you do this as a paycheck then when you work you get paid when you don't wark you do not get paid. But if you leverage labor and technology to your advantage you'll be on the love boat cashing checks. its hard work but its worth it in the long run.

by j.g.camp

without firsthand understanding of the situation. Start networking beyond your boss, if it's education or certifications you need get it.

Some places you can't overcome a well established management team. Many might be buddies, go to same church or whatever that makes their affiliation as strong as it is. Remember, management already in place has made that committment to support one another. It is their own fraternity.

If the promotions/raises aren't there do the bare minimum, that is unless you haven't sat down and specifically gotten the boss to nail the deficiency in the next performance appraisal. If the performance appraisal has anything negative on it, fight tooth and nail to have that upgraded to a more acceptable level, because it will surely be the blemish/what you will have to fight to overcome.

by jorgie0

I was also in the same box as you. I was sent to Australia on a two year contract. For 18 months I was leading a team of 9 developers. When it was time to return to the UK I asked what I would be returning to?

The answer was "We don't know yet"
I asked if I could come back as a Team Leader which got the response "You don't have enough experience".

This was both annoy and frustrating as they had not asked my boss in Australia and they also did not know me personally.

I voted with my feet and stayed with the company in Australia.

If you like the company you are currently with then the key question to ask is "What experience am I missing?" If they can't answer the question then there is something wrong!

The second question you need to think about is "Am I making this guy look good by doing my current job well and is he taking all the credit?"
If you this they might be then you need to find out what your options are, including updating your CV, which should never be more than a few months out of date anyway

by dc_guy

I particulary agree with the person who said that you simply might not have enough years of experience to be considered management material, regardless of how talented you actually are. Someone else mentioned the glut of extremely young and extremely clueless managers out there, your boss is undoubtedly a bit wary of adding to that pool. He may not be a good judge of people so he's erring on the side of caution.

Remember the chances are extremely great that your boss doesn't care at all about you as a person. Whether you can survive on your salary, whether you feel fulfilled... this is an era in which a lot of people aren't even very good about caring for their own children. You have to look at this situation through the boss's eyes and look for reasons why it would be in HIS best interest to promote you. Have you saved his keister a few times with your quick, clever handling of a rush assignment? Does he rely on your advice? Can you take over some of his workload? Will you represent him with flawless sycophantic accuracy in meetings?

The comments about people skills are also dead on. Ask your friends and colleagues for an honest answer: Do you have the personality -- the total attitude and behavior patterns -- to function like one of the managers in your company? One of the problems with being young is: that you are young. You may occasionally lapse into a mode of thinking or speaking that your elders think is simply inappropriate in a manager. Managers are never off duty, they never get to let it all hang out.

I'm just supposing here. I have no idea if any of these issues apply to you. If they do, then figure out what to do about it. If not, then you're faced with the choice of walking away from what appears to be a pretty secure paycheck and taking your chance out in the jungle -- during a period of intense global economic and political upheaval. Make doubly sure you know yourself before making a move. I walked away from a pretty secure job that was driving me nuts. I discovered that being unemployed is much worse than merely being driven nuts.

Good luck!

by mgeyre

What is probably happening is you are good in the position you are currently occupying, this in turn makes your boss look good. He does not want you promoted because he feels that if you move on then it will reflect badly on him. His solution keep making promises, occasionally give you some encouragement, a good appraisal, a small pay rise, a training course, this is all designed to keep you where you are, making him look good.

The solution is to request a performance review with the person who is next in the management chain ask what are the prospects of getting promoted within the next 6 to 12 months. If you do not get a straight answer let them know that you feel your career is stagnating and despite wishing to remain with the company you feel that you are being forced to move on. Make sure that they understand you do not want to leave but feel you have no option but to do so.

If you do leave, try to leave on good terms, although if I am right about the managers motives he will see your departure as a personal betrayal so try and find alternate people to provide you with references.

by mike66

My immediate thoughts, exactly.

Your boss needs you where you are! To do a job that you are 'too' good at (to be promoted away from it!).

This isn't the only possible explanation for his refusal to consider you for promotion - but it's the one I like best(!).

Solutions: 1. Don't be quite so 'good' at the job (not recommended because it destroys your own morale and it can come back to haunt you later in your career).

2. Find yourself a 'sponsor' within the company, outside of the department - preferably a rung higher up the ladder than your boss. He or she might be able to put your case for promotion to your boss.

3. Update your CV. But always leave on good terms, even with your boss. You never know what circumstances might bring you together again in the future.

by spevy

Your manager's issue is that they cannot (or won't) articulate what experience you need. He may also be using it as a euphuism for something else (Maturity, B.O., attitude, whatever). You are in charge of your growth and development, but need the help of others to succeed. As others have noted you need to prompt your manager with a definition of what experience they want you to gain. If your manager won?t mentor you, then you need to find someone who will. You don?t have to change jobs to do that, but just make sure you don?t confuse mentor with cheerleader. So, you need to find out what is holding you back and don?t always take the easy way out and blame your manager ? no matter how much of an idiot, buffoon or loser they may be. Recognize them for who they are, and learn to work with that. (BTW I learnt more about how to be a good manager from the bad ones, then from the good ones).

As others have noted above, your manager may truly want to promote you but there isn?t another position available. If you see other people being promoted past you, then my above point really applies, if not perhaps the opportunity is not there, and it is time to look for a company that will let you grow.

by gmorgan14

You should find out if there is another reason. Was the person promoted more experienced than you?
Have you gone to your boss and asked specifically which "experience" he found that caused another to get the promotion? Finally, have you trained someone to do your job if you get promoted? Sometimes managers don't promote a person because you do such a good job where you are now. They know their department will suffer if you leave.
Hope this helps...

by is girl

I have to say that I have seen many ambitious, hard working, highly skilled employees denied promotions in favor of an outside hire because they were "too good" at their current job.

Even in companies with "promote from within" policies, this happens often. They simply go through the motions and select a candidate with "more experience".

Is there a way around this? Yes...but it means leaving your current company and finding a job at the next level elsewhere.

by fgarvin

I had job for over 8 years. I continually was up for promotion to manager. I was for all purposes already performing the job of manager, but when time came to actually promote me, they always gave it to others.
Sounds to me like you are in a dead end situation. Your manager has you where he/she wants you and no matter what, you will not be moved up.
It's time to Pack up your bags and find a new home.

by fjaskulski

If you are too too too good at what you do and it makes the ole' boss shine (when he'd never shine on his own) then he's going to keep playing these games. Get that resume tuned up and get outta there ASAP. No sense wasting time doing anything else since most of the posts here suggest it anyway. Good luck....

by loymc

Your boss's comment on you needing more experience helps neither of you.

You need him to be specific on the skills or behaviours you need to develop. If he can't do this it may be time to consider the other options outlined by others.

by kevj

I was recently promoted after a move to our new office. The move involved a build out of office space, procuring new desktops, servers and a phone system. I worked in the new office during construction removing old Ethernet and phone wiring, pulling new Ethernet wiring and terminating network connections. The weekend of the move, Thursday through Sunday, I left my house at 4:00am and the earliest I returned was 11:00pm. On Monday, the staff walked into the office to new computers and phones but, their email and data were all in place just as they left it on Friday. The move was basically seamless for the staff. That was what it took for me to get promoted.

by wwforliving

I have found that if you are too valuable where you are currently positioned, it creates a reason to keep you there that cannot really be voiced by your superiors. If they were to tell you that you are doing your job too well to make it worth our while to promote you would only serve to make you less of an asset to the company as you tried to change that to get a promotion. Also if they want the job done at the level you are performing it now, it would be very difficult and expensive to replace you.
These are realities of doing a good job sometimes and although frustrating are also a compliment in a way.

by mitchlr

It really depends on the organization. You may have all the requisite competencies and abilities to manage, but some organizations require a level of fealty by managers which is almost Mephistopholean in degree (for those who haven't read Goethe, what I'm saying here is some companies demand more than competence; they want your soul.)
Management 'material' in the eyes of some companies means a willingness to make ethical compromises and to treat people like things. These steps are often demanded by companies who are in the all-too-familiar cycle of implementing cost controls across the board, and are placing short term financial results ahead of long-term company development.
This may not be the case in your company -- maybe you're just under someone who sees you as a possible competitor. The clueless management types who have few or no technical skills in IT but who specialize in office intrigue are legion. They know the folks who work for them are way smarter than they are and are threatened by them. They will do whatever they need to in order to protect their position.
If you are in a company that rewards this kind of junk, you basically have three choices:
1. Decide that you want to be a manager, sell your soul to the company and start back-stabbing all those around you, and go over the top of your manager and stab him in the back, too. (consequences -- you will probably be recognized by the upper management as someone who 'has what it takes' to make it, but you will have to slowly strangle your conscience until it's dead.)
2. You can satisfy yourself with a technical track if you have to stay at this company. (consequences - you get to continue working with folks you like, but you'll never be able to completely trust those you work *for*, and you will wonder about what might've been if you had the courage to do something. You may want to approach management about creating a technical track that has promotability -- some companies have technical advisors who are in the same 'grade' as managers but who do not supervise others, rather advise groups and business users about technical needs, engage in strategic architecture of systems and infrastructures, etc.)
3. Bail. Go into consulting or get a position with a company that remembers that businesses, while primarily economic organizations, are also inherently social ones as well, and where you may be able to start off with a management position.

I guess there's also a fourth alternative, and that is to study more on management and leadership and begin to consciously seek opportunities to showcase these skills in your current position. If you're in a meeting that is languishing for lack of direction, take the opportunity to go to the whiteboard and outline the plan to get out of the current dilemma -- draw up the rough draft of the project plan then and there. Don't order people to do things, but suggest roles for different people [Joe, you're strong in this sort of development. Wouldn't you be a good fit to take this module... Jane, you are great at interface design. If Mary says it's okay, why don't you work on those] If stepping up to the plate results in a positive outcome, you will have a sense of accomplishment, even if the Machiavelli you work for wants to take the credit for it. Do this enough times, and sooner or later benefits will come -- either you'll be moved up, or you will build your resume by having several successful projects under your belt and you'll be able to apply for a management role elsewhere.

Be sure to choose carefully, though. A management role can either be very gratifying or something that becomes an unbearable yoke. What is considered management 'material' in one company will get you fired in another. Choose who you work for wisely, and work for reasonable people who know that taking care of employees is in the best long-term interest of the company.

And while you're waiting for change, cultivate patience. You may have a family relying on you to bring home the bacon or other responsibilities. Build up enough funds to give you the freedom to make a lateral move or even take a pay cut if it will take you in the direction you want to go.

-- Dex

by logos-systems

I have been in this industry since 1970. I can tell you one truth, and that is, if you want a promotion you will get it; but ususally it will be with another company. So either be satified with what you have, and be greatful you have a job in this economy, or go find a new one.

by aldanatech

I don't see that promotion comming anytime soon so it is time to look elsewhere. Just remember that if asked why you're leaving your current position to say that you are happy with it but you want to advance on your career.

by 0ldan

Often everyone in a group has the necessary objective qualifications for promotions. And if there is only one position, what is the manager to do?

The first thing I think you should do is make sure there is really an opening for you to be promoted into. That's where Human Resources or Personnel comes into the picture. They can give you an objective view of the roadmap to that coveted promotion.

by itdood

It sounds like you feel you're entitled to a promotion because you "put in your time". What have you done to show your value at a higher level in the organization?

Ask your supervisor to help you draft a development plan to reach your goals if experience is the issue. Your supervisor may not be referring to "time" when they reference your experience. They may feel you are not a good fit for the new role from a personality standpoint.

by daveslash

Maybe I'm just overly direct (which is a very common malady for techno-dweebs such as myself), but if my boss said that I need more experience for a promotion, I?d ask, ?Specifically what type of experience are you referring to??

Depending on the answer, I?d probably follow that up with ?Exactly what can I do to obtain that experience??

If the answer to that last question was simply ?Nothing? or ?Wait for it?, I?d update my resume and start looking elsewhere.

Of couse, if the boss answers the questions with a specific course of action, then follow it!

by tony hopkinson

Any time you are prepared to make your manager's job more difficult, an insisting you aren't the round peg they want you to be is a good way to do this, you have got to be able say **** it I'm off and mean it, i.e. have somewhere to go first.

Just a thought, is there someone in place to take over your responsibilities ? Got to be careful with this one though I trained up a guy to cover for me and they kept him and let me go not upwards but outwards.

by b9girl

"insisting you aren't the round peg" is a valid point. If they aren't clear about why they are passing you over, it's easy to read into the blanks. Which shape are they trying to fill? Why can't they be more up-front? What are they trying to hide? True, nobody wants to hear what someone REALLY thinks of them (after they hear it).

I bring this up, the original poster's name is Kim... could be male or female. If indeed Kim is female, then is this the kind of thing where maybe she'll never fit their "Bill"...

Discrimination is a dirty word, but it is certainly a possibility. It should be carefully ruled out, but not dismissed out of hand. Yes, these things do actually happen, especially in fields where the line to the men's room is longer than the ladies'.

by rigmarol

Being in the Devils seat on this one, I have an employee who has been with me for over 3 1/2 years and is constantly asking for a raise.

We have a very structured system of advancement that involves demonstrating skills over time. As well as collecting certs.

When ask what he has to do I've given him a clear road map and check list. However, his "interpretation" of the road map and his "proof" are sorely lacking.

Make sure YOUR perspective matches your supervisor's. After all it's HIS perspective that gets you the money.

by joyp007

be direct and turn the situation around. demand tactfully that he give the specifics for the promotion and as you complete them document your progress. make sure you document time and date plus conversation with him. if still no luck - take all of this info to his boss in your chain of command

by martymccaghren

Thinking you have been 'passed over'. I have heard the same story myself. In fact, try 30 years of frustration, being a certified professional, with a Master's degree, proven(outside of work) leadership, in a company who ignores experience and wants 'young people and ideas' (and you've aged to the 'old' and never got to bat). Take it from an oldtimer. In the long run, it's not that important. Worry about your family - be a good father and husband. The things in life that matter are your faith and your family. They are the things that will live after you. The work environment forgets you soon after (if not the day of) your retirement, layoff, etc. It is not worth your time to be worried about such transient things. Not that you shouldn't do a good job and strive for 'improvement', just put it in focus. Hopefully, some day, God willing, I hope for you the opportunity will come so that you get your 'chance'.

by muta bahruka

Thank you all for your responses. It is assisting me with my current evaluation of my career situation. I can identify with several of the issues being discussed and thought I was the only one struggling with this issue.

Thanks again!

Knoxville

by thelastword

Any lawyers out there who can read that post I just put and tell me. One more thing the guy did one time is start rubbing his upper inner thighs when I was in the middle of talking to him !!! That just fizzled out the discussion completely, I left the office feeling really Yucky and he was just A-OK with that and with the project not continuing or anything else.

by thelastword

I hope someone can give me some feedback and what the hell can I do. I already have forms from the Human right commission but I hope to get a new job before submitting them. This guy just basically screwed me out of my career by giving away all my work for the last year. The other thing is WHY is he doing this to me. That part just baffles me.

by anarky1

Have you made a complaint to the manager's boss? HR? If not, why? His actions SEEM to be harassment. There are specific things which you must do in order for a harrassment charge to be taken seriously and to stick. Talk with an employment lawyer.

by is girl

Susie,

I can't believe you have to wonder if your boss is harassing you ! It seems clear to me.

Sometimes, women in traditionally male jobs have to overlook a little good-natured ribbing, but your boss has crossed the line.

Get yourself a tiny recorder and start compiling evidence against him. Contact the Dept. of Labor for info on handling sexual harassment in the workplace, and lodge a complaint against him.

by thelastword

While wondering however, I have been taping him for months and documenting all the odd ball practises going on in here. I have to get him on tape discussing this exact thing so I am going to confront the behavior next time and tape THAT conversation. Then I will have something

by sleepin'dawg

I thought most guys would have wised up by now but obviously some of these losers are still out there. As an employer I'd fire his butt out the door so fast his feet wouldn't touch the ground until he was across the street. Forget the morality of it; this nut would be exposing me and my company to law suits that could cause real damage. It would be put in his file why he was released and anyone who checked his references wouldn't think of hiring him as a manager ever again. Guys like this are only fit to take out the garbage. Float your resume out there and if a better job turns up grab it. A company that would tolerate a clown like this can't be that great a place to work. When you leave make sure HR knows your reasons for leaving but make sure you are safely ensconced in a new job before you bring suit as sometimes law suits can have a negative effect on prospects. If you're in a new job you will be proving your worth and probably no one will realize you are suing your old employer and if and when they find out your new employer will be warned that you are not to be trifled with. HR is going to ask for documentation; make sure you only give them copies and dupes and nothing original. I don't know where you are situated but if it is NY, Cal, Mass,Ill or Tex you could make out like a thief in the dark. Have no mercy. Guys and companies like this deserve everything they have coming to them.

by lizzy

Susie,
I am assuming that the CA in your address means that you're in Canada. Is that correct? If not, then perhaps you are in a backwards country and thus questioning what has been going on in your office.

Tape him, document every conversation in a notebook. Write down what he said and what you said, what he did and what your reaction was. Should you confront him? Sure. When he is being a pig, tell him. Ask him why he feels that he needs to do that and what he's so afraid of. Document his response--his sneer, his stupid remark, etc.

I am no lawyer, so I don't know if the tapes are admissible in court because your boss may not have known you were taping him or some such legal stuff. However, I do know that a journal\diary kept by you is admissible. Just write the date and time of each "conversation," and breifly outline what was said and what happened to make you uncomfortable.

Take him to court? Perhaps. Sometimes just fanning the journal in the faces of HR or you boss's boss may get the nonsense to stop. Still, you will need to decide if you want to work for a place that hires creeps like him.
Good luck to you.

by is girl

I have to agree with other posters who advise you to examine closely your motive for wanting to be promoted to managment. Management requires a different set of skills - people skills, political skills, brownnosing skills - that a lot of highly skilled technical people don't have the patience for. As a Manager, you will find yourself on the outside looking in on most projects, running the interference for your underlings with Sr. Management and keeping track of budget expenditures and deadlines and such. You will also have to discipline and fire employees, select staff members for cut backs, keep sr. managements secrets, and all sorts of distasteful things.

In my experience, being a Manager pays little more than having strong technical skills...so ask yourself what you hope to gain by being "management". Is it a nicer workspace? Prestige? A parking space with your name on it? More money? A title for your resume? Once you figure out the answers to these questions, you may find you can address these issues without this elusive "promotion".

Once you've decided that a Manager is what you dream of being, ask your Manager to be very specific about what kind of experience you lack. Ask him/her to help you formulate a plan for gaining said experience. Then, if you can't get the experience you need at work, start aquiring it by volunteering or free-lancing. This will serve two purposes. One, you may satisfy your Boss that you can gain Management experience, or two, you may may contacts that provide an opportunity to move to another company where you can be a Manager.

Good Luck.

by happytechieguy

I am currently a high level technical person, who has found the "Management" positions don't suit my personality and skill set. I have been put in positions of management, and found myself overwhelmed with the bureaucratic part of the job.

If you really do want to be a manager, some excellent advice has been given in this forum. I don't think that 5 years in a job is a long time when it comes to promoting a member of the staff to a management position, since it can really depend upon staff turnover, and upper management's desire to "spend the cash".

Hope you find much success and happiness in life!

by kdoyle

I agree completely, IS Girl had some very good points. Having technical skills is necessary, but unless you're a department of one being a manager also requires "soft skills." You need to be able to communicate clearly, both verbally and in writing. You need to be able to work with staff below you, and with upper management. You have to be a good politician. You need to understand budgets. You need good "people" skills, which a lot a techies don't take the time to develop. Not everyone is cut out to be a manager or supervisor -- I've seen technical people thrust into management positions only to fail miserably because of their lack of ?soft skills.?

Definitely ask your boss what other skill sets are required. Do you need to take management classes? Do you need a degree? If you?ve never actually supervised anyone, how about managing a project? This would show your boss you could handle a budget, deadlines, and people. It took me a longer than 4-1/2 years to become a manager -- six years of project management, a degree, and demonstrating ?soft skills? finally got me a promotion.

Hang in there.

by grikter

You go boasting about being an IT Manager and put that on your resume, when your background is checked (and for an IT Manager it will be checked) you will never get the position you applied for.

by gambi

I am not lying about anything or suggesting that anybody lie on my request.

I have been "filling" the IT Manager post for almost a year and a half now and I AM DOING THE JOB. My managers know what I do and I even have them as a reference on my CV.

Surely I can't be lying if I do that!!!!!

If you are emplyed as a receptionist but end up running the companies books in years to come because of your skills, are you going to put "receptionist" on your CV? - come on guys get real.

by testyttesterson

What do the people that are actually getting the promotions think about you performing their role? It must be pretty easy to be an IT manager if someone else is doing your job all the time! What about your normal job functions? Maybe that's why you keep getting passed up?

by mikencove

You are not going to get promoted. Your best move is to find a new job doing what you enjoy doing and leave this one behind.

by msnickap

take your concern to your co.'s Employee Relations Dept. or seek to find employment elsewheres.

by grandpa4

For the sake of argument assume that you still do need more experience. The way to put the ball in his court is to ask him sincerely in what areas he thinks that you need more experience and what you can do to get involved in those areas so you can gain the experience. Some times the art of managing lies less in what you can demonstrate you can do and more in what you can get others to willingly do for you. To be a manager is to be a team leader the emphasis on team. Good Luck

by chris029

In my line of work I will proabably never be promoted. Being a good hardware/software tech kinda makes your place in the organization obvious. As long as the money keeps on getting better I dont care what you call me-- I will keep on showing up for work. Anywhere I go the job will be the same so I have learned to live with it.

by jcmanthey

From what you have said, your manager appears to be incompetent. If your manager were competent, he would be doing everything possible to develop and promote his people; that makes his job easier.

If you want to try to fix this situation, you have to convince the manager to do his job. This includes setting specific objectives for your job and to identify what you need to accomplish to earn a promotion. You may get a deer-in-the-headlights look in response. If your manager is unwilling to do this, go talk to HR. Explain that you have asked for objectives and measurements required for a promotion, your manager hasn't responded, and ask them what the process is for fixing this. In part, your success with this will depend on demonstrating solid past job performance for yourself.

The other alternative is to try to find a competent manager to work for. However, the crazy ones don't where name tags, so it can be hard to tell.

Good Luck.

by jm22

I teach a seminar for techies called "Self-Promotion 101". In a nutshell -- its not about What you do or have done or what you know. Its about, most importantly, understanding how to sell yourself which in turn requires that you learn about the business goals for that position [which requires speaking with your bosses] and the ability to show them how your actions met those goals.

by blissfully_ignorant

Anytime a boss refuses to cite specifics when turning down a request for upward advancement, he is either looking out for himself, or is inept. A good manager wants the best from and FOR the people under him. Do you actually 4 1/2 years of "experience" or one year of experience 4 1/2 times? Are you actually ready for upward promotion?

My suggestions, therefore, are as follows:

1. Sit down with your boss and ask him what you need to improve to move to the next level. If he refuses to help you, then he's guarding his own butt and is a threat to the improvement of the company.

2. Ask the personnel department manager for assistance. Ask to see your past performance reviews "to help you improve".

3. Reassess yourself, your job, your boss and the company in general. Is this the place you want to work? Is the salary enough for you?

4. If not, then search for a new job - better pay / title. After you find one that meets your needs / goals...then

5. Speak to your boss again.

6. Submit a formal letter of resignation to HIS boss, explaining the entire situation.

by _mikebs

Great list, but I have a hunch this may go right to #6. Also apparently to a court settlement for harrasment. Thanks for clarity.

by jamerican_tech

I am in the same boat. It is very important to stay positive and optimistic. I agree with several other members in that it is probably time to look at either another department or another company, but never loose your optimistic attitude. I have seem people get so frustrated with one postion that when they applied for another postion, the frustration really showed and interviewer pick up on the negativity.

by lizzy

Dear Frustrated,
Just as I suggested that a journal\diary be kept documenting all conversations with poster Susie, so should you keep one. In yours, also document the work that you have been doing that you feel makes you qualified for the managerial position. Document your conversations with your supervisor with his\her non-answers--why you have not been promoted, what experience you aren't getting, what knowledge or experience you need. Ask your boss if he\she will give you assignments that will lead to the experience that you need. And remember to document all of it. Once you show a pattern, then perhaps you can do something about it.

Best to you.

by razzy11

I am the senior member of my team. GREAT work record. 8 years carry the most software packages and have the most overall knowledge. The boss says great things about me. However when she is selling folks to higher ups, I am not at the top of the list. She holds my scores down but I get "comments" that are a perception of the best. We were peers prior to working for the boss. I always get the carrot effect. Do this and this will happens..it always changes. I have been in IT for 18 years and am respected in and out of my organization. She values image and perception over tangible goods. I am a fun person when we are not on a project and that is the image she is sticking me with. She knows on a project I am the stuff. Why am I being help back. Also, my title was changed without my knowledge and given to a squeeky wheel. She has a answer for everything that boxes you in with accepting. HELP!!

by justkim

It would be different if I wasn't already handling all of the responsibilities of the management position, without the pay or status. I've been the supervisor of the entire department for 4 years. Management just would not make the committment to promote me. There is an update to this story. I finally was awarded the promotion a couple of weeks ago. However, I was given only an 8% boost in salary. While my salary at supervisory level was adequate, a promotion to management should have according to salary.com and many others, been much higher. I've been told that it was because my promotion wasn't budgeted for this year even though it was a commitment made to me by my boss.

by robmc

I'd like to become a manager. Yes, it is a completely different job. I'm satisfied with my technical abilities. At this point, I believe I can handle whatever technical challenges come my way. I'd like to tackle larger projects. Those larger projects are large enough that they can't be completed by just one person.

I see management as the path to larger challenges.

Rob

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