Report: Senior Saudi cleric OKs girls to marry

I am kidding, of course. I have a daughter and this is beyond my western thinking.

There are many parts of the world where women, no female, rights are not observed. It is not just the Middle East, but parts of India and Africa. There is not much right about this situation that has existed for centuries. We sometimes forget that it was not that long ago that females were 'betrothed' by their fathers at a very young age, and they had no say so at all.

Women's rights is a very recent, historically, thing. It has only been in the last 150 years (in the US) that real advancements were made.

http://www.wic.org/misc/history.htm

And the world became much richer and better.

In Western Culture and based on the laws on the USA, it is clearly criminal as the law prevents it. Child labour is also illegal in North America, however North Americans perpetuate child labour, and poor working conditions all over the world by demanding more for less from underpriviledged nations.

But that's okay, as long as it is not on your own soil others can treat their workers how they choose. Whatever it takes to fill the WalMart shelves with the cheapest crap is fine.

As the article indicates, it is clearly legal in Saudi Arabia though, meaning that in YOUR society its criminal, but that doesn't make it criminal in another country no matter how morally perfect you deem yourself; unless you feel your laws should be pushed on the world, which wouldn't be new to anyone anyway.

The problem with the current war in the middle east to begin with, is that they feel western culture is being imposed on Eastern residents. Regardless of what YOU feel is wrong or morally acceptable, you are condemning a foreign nation for THEIR laws. Maybe they feel that wearing short shorts and halters in public should be illegal. Perhaps the fact that women wander around with thongs showing out of their skin tight jeans is illegal. But in YOUR eyes that is simply freedom of choice, in YOUR society.

I am sure that if THEY had that same privilege to evaluate YOUR laws, you would not be too amused at how they see you as being too liberal. Yet when it is you viewing THEIR laws, of course your society is correct and theirs is wrong.

Whatever, how typically blind and hypocritical. What you grow up with becomes correct and all else is wrong. However, countries have been pushing the USA to fall into line for decades when it comes to laws. The Us just seems to take longer to adopt changes, as if it is a purposeful disobedience because confirming wouldl mean lack of independence.

When other nations abolished slavery and the US did not comply until many years later, is it right fo rthose other nations to claim that what you were doing with slaves is illegal? Nope. It may be illegal in teh UK or in Germany, but it certainly WAS legal in the US. Should their changing laws have been FORCED upon you at that point?

Americans always seem focused on what others do, without any reflection at all.

and are to be traded about, it doesn't matter how old they are, right?

Yeah, no wonder people around the world supposedly hate Americans. We think it is wrong and child molestation. Well, most of us do.

I'm judging the dictum put forth by this one toolbag of a cleric. I'd be willing to bet that there a lot of devout Muslim men who are as sickened by this as I am. Hell, from what I've read, Joseph Smith wrapped his perversions in the clock of religion, too. But at least it's been repudiated by the church he founded.

They've been used as soldiers in some countries. It's wrong.

They've been used as slaves in some places. It's wrong.

They've been used as wives. It's wrong.
(I am assuming that "wife" includes sexual relations. If I'm wrong, then I apologize for making that assumption.)

I don't think I've ever agreed iwth yuo before or thought that you made any sense. I always saw your comments as off-handed comments from left field, just to offer a different opinion and stir some debate. THIS actually makes all the sense in the world, well done!

on child molestation.

There is not a civilized nation that condones this with a 10 year old child.

It is ignorant to say because it is their belief that it is fine.

There is such a thing as right and wrong.

A 10 year old child is wrong.

How primitive of you to think otherwise.

We should have no comments on "human rights" in China or anywhere else in the world.

Amnesty International should learn to mind their own business, right?

I know all you see is old Arabs raping children, and yes that may come into play too. I am sure it is not the focus behind such interests though. We are not talking about the legal age for sexual consent, its the legal age for marriage. Though the two may often go together, that is not the focus of the article at all. However I do feel that is one of the reasons it was printed, to show a society that is less developed, to show a society where men are evil doers, to show a society where their morals oppose our own, and to make it easier to ignore the horrific war that you started.

Do you really think that hasn't happened in our own churches?

How about those religious cults that say that having 10 wives is okay? It completely opposes our cultural and social beliefs, however we are not to stop it as it is personal freedom of religion, no matter how whack we think it is.

We are simply the pot calling the kettle black, in this case on moral ground, we we deem fair to oppose as it would be I MMORAL(SP?) not to.

When our borders open to the Garden of Eden, then perhaps we can judge others.

...just gave an example of cross-cultural issues.

Some of them go to India, and "buy" themselves a bride. Young girls are married off to them by their very own parents.

That is a total separate issue all together. While I pay the taxes, the government here (local, state, and fed) seem to keep increasing it, and then putting programs together just to waste it and then increase it again.
Many of the programs are things that the government should not be doing in the first place (my opinion). However I can b!tch all I want about the taxes -- it is a total separate issue though. Lets just bring up that most of those opposed to the taxes (income) in the US do so because the tax is illegal -- and that is what they believe. This may be true, too, and likely is. This is based on principle, not just an unwillingness to pay.
Also, the feds seem to want to make things better and add taxes for other sh!t, that are mismanaged, however there is no option of ditching the tax.
Ah, you got me going on and on here -- I shall stop now before I get upset.

I know of MANY East Indians personally that had prearranged marriages, and I mean many if not all of those I know, which is a lot.

But that still doesn't paint a picture of a dirty 50 year old camel jockey raping a child.

In fact, most of the ones i know are educated and well mannered young men, that are simply told who they will marry. It doesn't always have to be seen as an old pervert looking for young meat, that's merely a stereotype painted in North America, again to make us not understand and not care for Middle Eastern men. Anything to make them seem inferior, less developed and uncultured. In fact the Middle East has FAR more culture and tradition than we do.

Thing that bugs me is that so many people view the Middle East as some substandard culture to be frowned upon. In actuality they are more advanced technologically than we usually are in North America, they get better education that we do, they are much more in tune with the rest of the world, and more. These people are not inferior, it is only by pure consequences that we, in North America. Even their economy is stringer than ours these days.

Is it possible we could learn from THEIR culture and morals? Yes, there is a lot we can learn, at least as much as we can teach them about our own.

...in what you want to. This has nothing to do with America. Some old Arab men are known to visit India and get really young girls.

like Germans crossing a border to get the 8+ yr. old boys and girls from a nearby poor country. Of course, these were just rentals

is turning your back on a child.

Just because they are from another part of the world, doesn't mean they are not worth anything.

?All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing?

quick to condemn anything American, and just as quick to defend anything middle east.

Do you really think that there is anything we can learn about getting 10 year old brides that will improve our society?

Ah, that is it. Just one more discussion to see how many buttons you can push, as their is not any defending of this article.

[i]Firstly, if you are born in country and raised as a citizen of that country, you are obligated to live by that country's laws.[/i]

Why?

[i]Don't like it? Get on your camel and go.[/i]

Is someone obligated to provide me a camel for that purpose? If so, who? If not, why not?

[i]This info on the world is not what our enemies oppose, it is the influx of US capitalism and commercialism that has them turning their noses up at our society being thrust at them as the way to live.[/i]

One might wonder how this influx of capitalism was ever allowed in.

[i]A society will, as it has a right, to determine if other cultures are inferior, different, similar or superior.[/i]

Says who?
Does this apply at the individual (who in plural make up society) level?
If yes, how is it slavery or genocide is 'wrong'?
If no, how is it applied at the general level if it isn't applied at the specific level?

etu

Sheik Abdul-Aziz Al Sheikh, the country's grand mufti, has a very tiny penis.

You're ruining my confidence for gettin' a job lawyerin'. If I can't convince somebody that it takes a sick sumbitch to take a 10-year old as a wife (and as I said elsewhere, I'm assuming that "wife" implies sleeping in the same bed) then I'll never be able to cut it against that Johnny Cochran feller.

[i]What's the difference between the above decision by the Saudi whoever the hell he is, and what goes on worldwide in the name of pedophilia and the chase for moolah?
[/i]

In one case someone is openly operating under the rules his culture has set for him. In the other, someone hides in the shadows and sneaks around because he knows what he's doing is wrong.

America is largely a nation of busybodies... Our own laws are fraught with the desire to "control" our neighbors and impose our definition of victimhood onto others. Right and wrong have fallen by the wayside... it's all about what we want you to do or not do.

The ONLY reason it's accepted here is that those who seek to control one thing or other are in the majority here.... and it's a lot easier to bully from that position (at least bullies think so).

It doesn't matter if other cultures are deviants that believe in child molestation. Who are we to judge?

It doesn't matter about kids in the sex trade or child slavery, who are we to judge?

Who cares about Darfur? If they want genocide, who are we to judge?

I used to feel bad about the entire pathetic world sitting back and allowing genocide in Rwandan, but who are we to judge?

Thanks Oz, you are absolutely right and I feel much better.

But what happens when one of the Saudi perverts comes to the US or Canada with his 10 year old "wife"? Here in the US, he would have to "melt" and assimilate, while in Canada he is not required to compromise his beliefs and can start cruising the middle schools for his next few "wives".

What a world.

"So how do we go about showing them what a free society is like without them seeing the immense corruption they face by adopting it too?" -- Oz

Truer words were never spoken, Oz. You get on my nerves with your America-bashing, but this country no longer is what it once was nor what it could yet be.

We ARE a pampered, egocentric country as a whole... and keep in mind that to the rest of the world, we are still the baby. They are the adults that have been around a whole lot longer, and here comes this young whipper-snapper that thinks he has all the answers, but is still wet behind the ears. The middle east has BUILDINGS older than our Declaration of Independence.

I spent many years working in and with a company based in Istanbul. Most Americans would be flabbergasted to hear what others think of this culture... and what Oz says is the heart of it... how can they adopt Western Culture (which includes our quickly vanishing freedoms) when immorality, corruption and the breakdown of the family are the fruits of what we have sown? They don't want any part of it.

If we could grow up into an Adult nation with Adult values (not those of a sex-starved teenager), maybe the world would start taking us seriously.

You think that your society has a "right" to "influence the other society's inferior culture to reform or adapt"?

You are kidding with me, right?

The WHOLE issue that they resent with western culture is that it is being thrust upon them and their youth are being 'influenced' to adapt to wetern culture.

What RIGHT do we have to impose OUR culture unpon theirs?

Its not like these people live in boxes and don't get to see western culture on the Internet, the TV etc. If they want it, they will embrace it, which is their problem to accept or reject as a society.

Neither you or I have ANY right whatsoever to impose our cultures, our beliefs and our society on them any more than we would happily accept them doing the same to us.

Now in Canada, being a multicultural country, we do actually allow and accept a certain amount of their culture to be retained when they live here, with the exception of legal matters, as is the case here.

But in the US, you don't even allow imigrants without expecting assimilation.
"They should have to learn English if they want to move here"
"If they don't like our culture and don't want to become American, then they should have stayed put"

This is the sentiment Americans echo all over when it comes to immigrants and cultural retention. 'it aint American, and we don't want it' is the main idea.

Yet somehow, regardless of how you act towards others, others should be subjected to, and you even feel you have a right to, impose YOUR culture and society on others. is that because you deem your own society to be more advanced than thiers and more correct in some warped way?

And yet you fail to accept that that is pure hypocrisy?

Since he slams Oz for it at every opportunity.

I don't expect it to change.

James

is that the same people who claim to be anti-big government are seeming to want one to go in and "force" their point of view onto another country.

And that's something I have always had issue with, I don't know about others. But it is nice to see you offer a logical and well explained opinion, regardless if I agree or disagree.

or they don't exist.

As do people in all of our nations.

a little girls in Laos, a teenager in Thailand etc. Our own society visits and exploits these people all the time.

We order underage women/wives illegally as if from the Sears catalogue and where do they come from? Thailand, Russia, Laos and other underpriviledged countries that are at our mercy.

That is illegal trade and rightly so, it is against the law in the originating country, it is against the laws of our own and we DO have a right to address it and try to reduce it.

Another nation passing a law or even publicly accepting marriage at a younger age is NOT our business to circumvent.

You are not going to pull that black and white bullsh1t that gets spewed any time someone wants to be shallow and two dimensional, it simply doesn't work that way.

Your very own Constitution was black and white when written, but didn't suit a changing society, thus it is ammended to detail exceptions as there are many instances where an absolute right cannot be granted. Take for instance the right to free speech, it is NOT an absolute right it is a right with a lot of grey area and many exceptions, allowances and restrictions behind it. It is not a matter of right or wrong at all. You are a more sophisticated society that that, or at least I'd like to think you are.

In this case we are not talking about absolute rights either, we are talking about situations that must be addressed carefully and with consideration of all the issues surrounding it.

there's no black and white, right or wrong here at all, I completely and wholeheartedy disagree with your shallow and very inconsiderate comments.

It's an absolute reality in which we live.

I made no assertions in relation to what my place may or may not be regarding changing things in other nations and cultures.

My place is in relation to my immediate vicinity, or I would be placed elsewhere.

and sad

They warned you about taking the brown acid.

Is an Oak tree not always an Oak tree.

For god's sake, when will Americans stop quoting old comments as if it makes them sound clever? Especially when they don't apply or fit the context in any way at all.

we are nto talking about 'kin oiak trees, acorns, American flags or people raping your families. It is not a matter of what YOU feel is right or wrong, it is not a matter of your business at all.

Funny how nobody is up at arms abotu labour abuse in China, which actually IS illegal and YOU perpetuate it.

But some cleric in Saudi Arabia making a statement (not passing as law) that children of 10 MAY be married, and America is ready to bomb them into submission.

FO with your righteous, do good holier than thou BS, its pure crap and THAT's why the world either laughs at your two dimensional society or simply rejects and fights against it.

You even feel that YOUR police should be able to do their work in OUR country as per YOUR laws? You constantly work to fight against our laws, you arrest our citizens IN CANADA. Who the hell do you reallythink you are? You certainly aren't better than us, you certainly aren't more advaced, more aware, more intelligent than us. You certainly are not better off than us, and yet ou feel that we should adopt YOUR ways? It is such a typical mindset and nobody knows how the hell you get it, you really think your are right in all ways and that your way is the only way and all others should be forced to accept it. Here's reality then, Canadians think you should all f'k off and leave our resources and economy alone. We think that America sucks and should adopt more liberal and more reasonable, sensible and logical laws and morals. We think that building your nation laws and societies morals standards on the premise of Christianity is blind and clueless, that it displayes complete ignorance towards rational thought. We and our other alied nations have a right to change teh way you think, change your laws and yoru moral standards that are nothing but substandard to others. Are we not in our right to do so? I think 'kin NOT!

To top it all off, Americans even think the rest of the world's citizens wish they were in America?! Get a f'in life people! What a bunch of arrogant, pri**s!

Miss the point entirely why don't you?

I lived through Woodstock, btw. 'They' were right about the brown acid. :D :D :D

O am not quick to defend anythign Saudi Arabian, with exception of this one specific issue, what else Saudi Arabian have I defended? just one example would be fine, as you have applied your comment in blanket fashion a something I do regularly, one example should be easy to provide.

Now as far as not accepting anything America does; reading the comments here of your fellowmen/women who feel it is your right and your duty to impose your culture and morals upon another nation, its no wodner I oppose the idea. That's the typical American do-good wannabe attitude that the entire world, allies and enemies reject abotu America. You might want to look around, I'm not alone at all.

Your rapid cessation wouldn't be a positive asset in that world; I lived it for years now and had to grow a pretty damn thick skin.
YOu haven't convinced me that sleeping with a 10 year old girl is not wrong, you never needed to.

In our society it is morally wrong, in our legal system it is illegal and receives severe penalty. Even our criminals dont; accept kiddie diddlers in prison. That's the lowest of all forms of life, to us, abusing women or children and we rightly do not accept it within our national borders.

But what Saudi's do with THEIR laws and THEIR morals is NOT our business unless it is being perpetuated by our society or effects our society, end of story. It's not turning your back on someone it's called letting others live their own lives, we are NOT the world police nor can we act like them, even if it is simply when we feel it is in our best interets to police others.

You've done something with our irrational Tony! :)

And that means that exploiting workers in third world country is okay then, its not ALL the time just some of the time.

I mean, I know a guy who rapes girls once a year or so, but he's not always doing it,. He's a really good, hard working guy but once a year likes to take one for himself. But that's okay, he sleeps with his own wife most of the time.

>>Of course that is completely contrived for the purpose of making a point, I do not know anyone who has raped anyone and would not sit idly by if I did.

As for made in America, I work with products MADE in America. One is an entire product line that is made in America and sent to China for assembly and distribution. The boxes say American made, but they were shipped as a complete product from China.

There is a HUGE woolen mill in Vancouver which makes denim for much of the world's Levis, Wranglers, etc. Whether its the Gap or WalMart, the denim bolts come from the same place.

They also make tartans, every clan you can dream up, every colour, thickness, pile etc. They ship it all over the world, it will be cut in Scotland, sewn in India and sold back in Vancouver as made in Scotland.

"But the tag says....." sure.

to maintain a train of thought... Sometimes life interferes in that... Thanks

ceramic items or glass items, with a seal marked made in the USA and another stamp from the American Ceramics Union (or some such thing). I bet they ship everything to china to put in boxes to ship back here?

C'mon, is it that difficult to agree that Wal-Mart isnt 100% made in China?
Ok, how about this -- I think that I saw a tag stating Made in India as well!

Oh, and the Aloe Drink -- made by Fruit of the Earth -- Texas/USA.

World anti-American media has done little to change their minds.

happy with it, not forced into it, or whatever. Maybe a 10 Yr. old marrying another 10 yr. old??
While I still disagree, it is not my choice

........history.

Please read what I wrote carefully. I did not say anything about a right, did I? I listed what can or will happen. I did not say a society has every right to do what it wants.

I listed the possibilities....the actions a society will undertake.

I assume that you are referring to my earlier post.

You very well know I am not an American, yet you take my post and slap it on Americans. That is simply not fair on your part.

I have said it several times to you in the past. No you wouldn't accept it, because you had decided that since I live in America all my views are shaped by the American systems. As I said, you will believe in what you want to believe.

Moreover, you even got my post wrong. I did not imply or say anything about a society's right to influence other society. Read my post again.

1) A society will, as it has a right, to determine if other cultures are inferior, different, similar or superior.

no it doesn't , you have the ability to vote for what YOU deem correct in YOUR society, nobody else's

Go easy.....

In my religion, gods all the time make mistakes and reform; or commit more mistakes :-)

A society has the "right" to determine; but I did not say a society has the "right" to any one particular action.

"1) A society will, as it has a right, to determine if other cultures are inferior, different, similar or superior."

So you have a RIGHT to judge other cultures an deem them inferior or superior.

"2.3) Influence the other society's inferior culture to reform and adapt."

okay if that doesn't mean you have a rigt to judge it and influence another country's culture, what does it mean then?

Bottom line, you can judge all you like, but how you see saying you have a right to judge and influence other cultures as not meaning you have the right the right to judge and influence other cultures is beyond me.

You spelled it out, in point form.

"2.3) Influence the other society's inferior culture to reform and adapt."

so you FEEL you have a right to judge others, judge not lest ye be judges yourself.

And you feel that you can influence another society that YOU deem "inferior" to your own.

Is that some form of God given gift that Americans have then?

A right to judge and change another society's culture, well said. seems pretty clear and concise to me, not much grey area. Unless you typed what you didn't actually mean or later realised just how absurd it all sounds.

Let me try one more time.

Yes, I said a society has the right to Judge. But I did not say the society has the right to take a particular action.

If you can not distinguish the nuance there, then I am at a loss for words. I simply do not know how to make you understand. So peace.

Those two are really gem of questions. And I am going to immediately admit that I do not know the answers to them.

Whatever I know about Christianity is that during the last few centuries there were lots of reforms. Hinduism has undergone reforms from time immemorial. There are traditions and practices that look outdated now. Islam is going through these reforms as well, except that Saudi Arabia in particular has been responsible for developing a virulent form in the last century or so.

Civilizations learn from each other. And if I remember some of the things that you have always said here is about how an individual takes responsibility for his/her career and continue to learn and develop all the time right?

I never said ALL WalMart products were made in China. But the majority of China's exports are to the USA. The majority of THOSE items headed for the USA are for WalMart.

And in most cases, when a product is created in America out of multiple parts, it IS cheaper in many cases to send those parts to China for assembly and then ship back to the USA, that's why so many companies do it today.

It is THAT type of low cost labour that is exploitation. Those 'sweatshops' make workers live at the factory, work sometimes in excess of 24 hrs straight and fine those who do not. All to make sure that you can get your kids toys for $0.79 cents less than you can get them at other stores.

You can make pathetic excuses or seek out exceptions all you like, but it doesn't detract from the reality that China's increasing labour repression is due to America's constantly growing need for more cheap sh1t because people want to pay less. You were all scared into thinking the sky is falling and the economy is in dire straights, as economy that spent half a trillion dollars on an illegal war, a county that spent 700 BILLION to bail out bad lenders debts, a country that spent billions more to bail out an auto industry that fails to make a valuable enough car to keep consumers buying from the country's manufacturer's.

But hey, you better support that Chinese import garbage, that 75 cents may put Greg and Donna's department store out of business but that's life, you need to save that money because the country is crumbling, better spend it overseas.

Talk about easily duped!

....when it is simply no point talking to you. Because you are not known for budging.

Leave America out of this, will you? I don't bring Great Britain or Canada into our discussions do I? For the nth time, let me tell you I am not an American. I am an Indian, and grew up with Indian value systems {whatever that is :-) }

Yes, I have the right to judge others. Others will judge me, so what now?