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This is a loosing battle!!!

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by secure_lockdown9

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My background: F/T Employed systems/network administrator with over 7 years experience. I am worried that I have been at my job too long and if I don't move soon - I may not be marketable in the IT field anymore.

I have been looking for an entry level job in Information Security for 2 years now. I did professional upgrading, got the expensive certification and even took some consulty jobs on the side to get more security experience. I have tried EVERYTHING and I must have applied EVERYWHERE. I can't seem to find a job to save my life. What is going on this the IT field! Why is it so dead! What am I doing wrong!

28 replies

by swstephe

"those who can't do, teach". i think he meant it as an insult, but these days, when actual IT jobs are very competitive, you might want to consider giving yourself even more competion. of course, people are wising up, that there aren't any jobs out there, so they are getting a different education. that's a possible second choice, since you are still employed. do whatever it takes to learn something non-IT. you might be more business savy these days and look at learning business or management.

by jdmercha

With IT outsourcing being so popular these days, jobs in the US are very competititive. Consider that you are also competing against people like me. I have an MS and 20 years of experience. I've been looking for almost a year now and I've managed to get one interview, but they couldn't meet my salary requirements.

by secure_lockdown9

this is in response to you and the other fellow. I have actually been looking at a business oriented career move/angle also because it seems - to stay in IT - the sheer volume and breadth of knowledge and skills sets you must master seems extraordinry!

when looking at the more business focused job requirements in IT - it's a small fraction.

by maxwell edison

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I'm amazed at how many people cry about the lack of "IT jobs". Geesh, if you really think about it, damn near EVERY job is, in some way, an IT job. The industry isn't going away; it's changing. Computer users are getting more savvy and they simply don't need an "IT" person to hold their hand every time they try to do something. The rush to computerize is in the past, and companies have an IT infrastructure already in place.

I've said it about a gazillion times, but it may be that the IT person of the past might have to shift focus a bit, and instead of just creating or maintaining IT, they may have to think about applying IT to achieve some desired end.

You have not tried "everything" or else you'd have a job. Instead of "asking" for a job, per se, why not try to envision some kind of outcome. If you can walk into a company with a vision of how you can help that company become more productive, thereby improving their bottom line, jobs will be falling out of the woodwork. Don't just be an IT professional, but advance a vision of how you can use IT to achieve a lofty (and profitable) desired end.

It's a vision thing.

by jdmercha

Four years ago we had an open IT position and we got 20 resumes, and paid a salary of $35K. This year we had two openings and got over 200 resumes for each one. And these positoins paid less than $25K.

That sounds like a lack of IT jobs to me.

by maxwell edison

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Don't fall into the trap of seeing what's not there. Instead, look only at what IS there. (Wherever "there" may be.)

by oz_media

Seriously, out of those 200 applicants, if they all had proper job hunting skills they would all be employed in three weeks.

People that respond to ads, online offers etc. will be in a perpetual hunt for jobs,those 200 applicants that responded to you are probably the weakest of the bunch, they aren't hunters they are just gpoing through the motions and expecting experience or certifications to gain them employment, they will become full time employees though (of the unemployment office).

by dmwoodcock

How can we have a shortage of IT jobs if Corporate America is trying to get an increase in H1B's etc...America does not have enough qualified IT folks that will work for minimum wage. We have seen this before, they come, they learn, only to return to their countries and work for cheap labor. What we need to do is colloborate with our IT brothers and sisters around the world and strike. If monkey's can write code and program routers cheaper, hire them. We will all just transition into our new occupations faster.

by maxwell edison

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If I went out on a mission to "find a job", and it would be a "mission", I would not go anywhere near those huge corporations that employ hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands of people. I would stay away from the stereo-typical human resources departments, and I would stay away from head-hunters and job placement firms. I would stay away from all those things that usually pigeon-hole people into whatever definition suits their bureaucracy.

In my "approach" of sharing my vision for improving a company's product and/or profit (usually they go hand-in-hand), I don't want it to fall on deaf -- or ignorant -- ears. So where would I go?

Small firms:

* Represent more than 99.7 percent of all employers.
* Employ more than half of all private sector employees
* Pay 44.5 percent of total U.S. private payroll.
* Generate 60 to 80 percent of net new jobs annually.
* Create more than 50 percent of nonfarm private gross domestic product (GDP).
* Supplied 22.8 percent of the total value of federal prime contracts (about $50 billion) in FY 2001.
* Produce 13 to 14 times more patents per employee than large patenting firms. These patents are twice as likely as large firm patents to be among the one percent most cited.
* Are employers of 39 percent of high tech workers (such as scientists, engineers, and computer workers ) .
* Are 53 percent home-based and 3 percent franchises.
* Made up 97 percent of all identified exporters and produced 29 percent of the known export value in FY 2001.

In my opinion:

* It's easier to get your foot into the door -- share your vision -- with a small firm.
* It's easier to make an impact, and do it faster, with a small firm.
* It's easier to show how you can really improve a product, process or profit with a small firm.
* True, small firms have higher failure rates, but what an opportunity to really make an impact, helping to avoid such an outcome.
* And conversely, the success factor can be exponentially greater than a mega-firm.

Find a small firm that's in the business of producing something (either tangible or intangible) that's of great interest to you, and show them how you can use Information Technology and/or computing technology to help them do it even better. And there's your job.

by jdmercha

This is a very good strategy, if you are currently unemployed, looking to build your resume, learn a new skill, or are looking for job satisfaction. (I have rarely seen this spelled out so well.)

But for those of us who have already done that, small firms can't match the opportunities or salaries of larger firms. In my case its the low salary that has me looking now.

by maxwell edison

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Negotiating salaries with small firms can provide a huge opportunity as well. Smaller salaries to start might be the norm, but performance bonuses and/or performance reviews can be used to advance very quickly, at least as far as salary is concerned (short-term pain, long term gain). A person might say, "Sure, I can take the smaller salary to start, but will you be willing to evaluate my contributions after a predetermined amount of time, and adjust my salary accordingly?" Most small businesses would be more than willing to do this -- looking for the win-win. Of course, a person has to be able to contribute in a positive -- and profitable -- way in order to make this work.

by secure_lockdown9

hi - you may have missed a part of my original post. "looking for a position in informatino security".

i am in the "middle" of my career - looking to specialize. if i wanted to continue handling level 1 and level 2 support calls all day long - i could turn off my brain and stay at my current job until i retire. i could probably also leave and get another junior level postion at less income somewhere else (smaller company!!) - they would be thrilled to land somewone with my experience at that pay rate.

my point is - there are no mid-level jobs!! my current job could easlily go to someone who is just entering the industry - it would be an excellent learning ground for them.

by oz_media

open a phone book, cruise through ALL the companies the YOU want to work for.

Write out a short list introducing yourself and your successes and schivements with your last employer, not just "obtained CCNE" but "Managed to increase productivity by 8% or increased sales volume by 14% or reduced losses by... An actual achievement or success that benefitted the company, not just you.

Start calling the companies you have chosen to hit, ask for the NAME of the person in charge (not HR, not who accepts resumes etc.) you want the BOSSES NAME.

Once you have the name,ask if the person is available. If they aren't, when you call back, "it's John calling for Rick." Not some guy looking for work.

If Rick isn't there find out when he will be and CALL BACK! WHEN (not if) you get Rick on the phone, pitch him. Sell yourself, your ideas, what YOU will bring to the table and how YOU will benefit the company. YOu need to be a salesman on a cold call here, it is a hard skill for many to learn but an invaluable one.

So you spoke to the boss and pitched your ideas, now what? Well, Rick, would I be able to take a quick moment of your time to meet with you and discuss opportunities further? If not, "Do you know of anyone else that could use someone with my abilities and drive?" Still cold? Next call.

If you can't get at least 5 interviews in the first week, find a new career. Don't call 1, 5, or even 10 companies a day, call 30, 40 or even 50. Sales is a numbers game and in this case, you are a salesman selling yourself.

NOW, if Rick says that sounds great but all of our alications MUST go through HR (this is good by the way, at this point)have him transfer your call DIRECTLY to the HR department.

The HR people now have THEIR boss forwarding an applicant to them, much more clout on your part and you will be noticed.

Your pitch, "I was just talking with Rick about a suitable position within your company and he liked my ideas but said that I had to go through the formality of applying to HR. YOu are in like flint, they wil never question the boss and you WILL be noticed, your name WILL e recognized and if your resume is eyecatching and has something to make it apear different from others (at a glance) you will be found.

Do this over and over again, you WILL find the job of YOUR choice in two to three weeks. I have a 98% success record working with unemployed people and helping them find work this way. It is practically infallible but takes work, dedication and b**ls.

by jdmercha

I agree that most available IT jobs today are low-level and low-paying. There are very few mid to upper level IT jobs.

by oz_media

It jobs are abundant in BC.

I have been picking and choosing between MANY offers, have a few on the table and a few I even turned down as they weren't appealing enough for me.

My client outsourced thier net support a few weeks back, I have had over a dozen interviews and a few over the phone offers. In BC, the ball is in your court here. Plus hey, it's BC, the most beautiful place to live.

Now being in Canada already, it's just a matter of moving west, much easier than an American trying to get up here.

MY certs? MCNE, that's it. I haven't been asked ONCE (not ONCE) what certifications I hold. ALL opportunities out here ask for BASIC certs (or equivalent work experience) people here know very well, that's certs aren't worth the paper they are written on most of the time,experience and ability wins over. Most companies don't care about experience at all either, thye are more interested in how you will fit in with the company as a person.

Just visit monster or techvibes and you will see just what an immense demand for UNSKILLED butu abile and willing IT staff there is, and the pay is still very respectable in most cases.

This is a province of unequalled opportunity, nobody is out of work here unless they choose to be.

Good luck,
OM

by oz_media

How are you looking for work? Advertisements, newspaper, online, recruiters?

Note: NONE of the above are a viable way to seek employment.

If you want help in HOW to find companies to apply to, just send me an email or post back here.

ozmedia@excite.com Use subject line 'TR PEER'

by admin

I know a few jobs in town people are turning down because they don't want to be starting in the 20,000.00 (or less) range and they want a shop where they can play with all new Cisco top of the line equipment. The reality is that Networking and Security are getting easier and easier and we're competing with skill levels that someone else will do for less money or that are being handled by easier to use (and cheaper) devices.

There are still some of the higher paying networking jobs out there with cutting edge technology, but a lot of those go to friends and others already in the loops. To get into those loops you gotta be willing to work for peanuts to start and stay there a few years or so- and then its still tough. I know a lot of guys with Network educations, skills, experience and certs around here who are doing tech support (even one doing business sales at CompUSA)- because it pays their families bills.

These days its a long slow climb with a lot less money than sales or top tier support. Still, if you love it and keep trying and stay open to entry level salaries ( or temp hourly) and learn a specific business niche you'll make a living in the long run.

by james schroer

Salesman and Networking

You must network with people and have friends of friends of friends get you noticed. It may take some time to get a good rep with all those friends but once you start to build that the jobs will come rolling in. I'm in a simial position as you are. It's hard and time consuming but when people HEAR your name from someone they WILL look at your resume.

The next part is your really have to sell yourself. Research the company that you applying at and when you talk to someone there (be it in an interview or just to inquirer about the position) you have to express to them how YOU can help their company.

The reason the other person said they are now getting 200 resumes for a position is because every college and their extension centers are offering IT classes. There are more specialty colleges for IT than any other field.

So to wrap it up you must do two things. 1. Have someone mention your name to the hiring manager. 2. Sell, sell, sell yourself as if you were a product and how you can benifit their company with your skills.

by jdmercha

Where I work we will only accept applications from people that are answering a specific job ad. And they have to apply online. I will grant you that only 50 of those 200 met the minimum requirements of a BS plus 3-5 years experience.

But consider what I said before. Four years ago we only got a total of 20 applications for the same job. And we paid $10k more back then also.

by oz_media

Obviously whencompanies wer efirst building networks and IT was 'in it's prime' so to speak, there were more IT opporunities available and higher salaries in general.

Your posts here show that you want to insist that the market is dying and you are in a rut that you can't escape due to a tougher market.

This is a market much like the auto service industry in that it has become a necesssity. Everyone MUST have a computer now, like it or not, if they want to get ahead. MCSE's are churned out like ground beef through a meat grinder, certs are practically a high school training program now. The thing to remember though is that just like mechanics, there are good ones and bad ones, believe me when I say the bad ones stand out and the good ones are remembered.

You just have to be different than everyone else ad stand out a little more. IT staff are like animals at the farm now, you don't name them because you never know how long they'll be around.

You should still cold call some companies, I have proven this so many times and it is fool proof. Yes, you will be rejected, told to FO etc. get used to it and keep going. You are calling them with an OFFER remember, sales is not THAT easy.

Good luck but remember, "if you don't think you can succeed you'll be 100% right every time."

by jdmercha

I do not have clearance, but I have had an FBI background check.

I have managed to find two openings in DC that I have applied for recently. Both of those positoins were a step down for me, but an increase in pay.

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