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Ageism? Good Idea?

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by dotxen 9 views

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Do we really want to have old geeks in our industry? Isn't it time we came clean with the truth and said it like it is? Older people (over 40s) working in the IT industry is like a wrinkly driving a sports car...pathetic! Buy a Volvo for Christsakes!

The oldies struggle to keep up with change. It's a natural consequence of aging. They prattle on about how important understanding DOS is, when no-one gives a toss about DOS anymore and 90% of current IT folk don't even know what it is!

If you were interviewing candidate for a job in network technical support, would you employ a 55 year old? Truthfully please!

It is for the young.......isn't it?

What do you think?

977 replies

by roger99a

In 20 years you'll be crying about how valuable your work experience is and how all these young pups think they know more than they really do, and how they have no work ethic blah blah blah. Putz.

by tonythetiger

Wisdom comes from good judgement over time.
Good judgement comes from experience.
Experience comes from.... bad judgement :)

by deepsand

they think they can walk the walk.

Just more proof of the proposition that youth is wasted on the young.

by tonythetiger

The users will wonder why they can't get the reports exactly the way they want like they used to be able to.

by Member 27824808

Brains become more ridgid with age, so new ideas may be harder to grasp (there are exceptions). But you can't put wisdom in a book and have someone young read it and hence accuire it. Its all the non-programming aspects that make us better programmers that count for this wisdom. Part of that wisdom is accepting that younger people can out perform you on a line-of-code-by-line-of-code basis. But they can't lead a team, etc. Its the understanding of the processes of a successful IT department and company overall that is wisdom.

Natural progression is something along the lines of hacker -> student -> internship -> programmer
-> senior programmer -> architect -> business analyst -> project manager -> development manager -> CIO/CTO. By the time you have the CIO/CTO, you have finished an MBA.

Most smart ones leave at the programmer or senior programmer and end up with their own companies as owners. It is the corporate route I've shown. The academic route is a possibility too.

I agree that usually seeing a 70 year old writing .NET code is something weird. But I would not be so quick as to dismiss their work. If they have experience and the experience shows the ability to always adapt to new methodologies (not just languages), I would guess it is their love of the work that keeps them productive.

They can give you lots of pointers about life in general too.. Like your grampa!

My $0.03

by choppit

It's a common misconception that the brain declines in the same way the body does. Sure, some areas of brain function (e.g. memory) can become impaired with age but the brain does not suffer from 'mechanical' breakdown as the body does. Basically- use it or lose it.

by jaqui

company bankrupted payig off the settlements for discrimination lawsuits.

any form of discrimination should not be promoted in any business.

I won't hire anyone that isn't comfortable with linux. ( windoze free workplace )

by dotxen

I am 55 years old. I am a sebnior network systems engineer and instructor, plus a whole bunch of other stuff.

I wrote this topic to provoke debate over a very important issue. It has achieved just that.

I would love to work for you.

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

Robb

by apotheon

Something tells me most of the people here don't hire trolls, either.

Being young won't get you a job with anyone with two brain cells to rub together. Neither will being old.

by amcol

You, sir, are a liar.

You say you "wrote this topic to provoke debate over a very important issue". However, your original post said "Do we really want to have old geeks in our industry? Isn't it time we came clean with the truth and said it like it is?".

You are guilty of misrepresentation and being disingenuous at the very least. You did not seek to provoke debate, you simply sought to provoke.

You should have been up front at the very beginning. Your presentation of the issue did not generate intelligent discussion, it simply brought out a great many people taking you to task for what appeared to be a discriminatory attitude that we now know you in fact do not possess.

Serious debate provides learning. We learned nothing from this...other than the fact that you're a liar and a provocateur. You've forced us to wade through a number of posts that are ultimately irrelevant to this "very important issue" in order to find the one or two nuggets that actually provide some intelligence. Thanks for wasting our collective time.

by erich1010

When I read the post, I figured it was a troll.

Glad to see I'm old enough to spot a faker.

by why me worry?

As much as us young folks detest working with old geezers who were masters in Cobol and Mainframes and have no clue how to use Windows XP or surf the web, companies cannot simply give them the boot without shooting themselves in the foot with age discrimination lawsuits and unethical practices of forced retirement. True, older workers may have a hard time finding new work today, unless their skills are so unique that some young kid can't do it. But for those who are already employed and in their 50s', companies cannot simply force these people out, even if these employees don't do much, without making it look suscpicious and inviting a nasty age discrimination suit in which they will lose a lot of money. The company I work for, an international law firm, still employs some old timers back from when they had a mainframe, but since those days are long gone and we are now a Windows 2000/Netware shop, they have been retrained and are now writing software in modern programming languages instead of Cobol and DB2. Yes, a lot of them are old enough to be retired and in old folks homes, but the company obviously has a business need for them and thus leaves them alone. Also, it's easier to retrain old employees who know your system, than to hire new ones who know nothing about where you were and where you're going with your systems.

by deepsand

FAR from clueless.

We've got far more clues than the young can imagine that they will ever have.

The American Indians have an apt adage, [i]As grows the circle of light, so grows the circle of darkness.[/i]

Simply put, the more one knows the more one becomes aware of the extent of his ignorance.

It is the young who are truly clueless.

by zlitocook

Know how to get around things like the (endless meeting) the (9to5) worker time and how to get out of the office before every one else. Ask a older worker about what is going on/ with out acting like you know every thing. You might be impressed with what he/she knows. I just taught a young person how to by pass the IP firewall to get to a site that was blocked. And it was a easy thing to to do for me.

by av .

What you said is very true, especially about law firms. They are culturally different than the corporate world. Most attornies don't come into their own until they have 20 or 30 years of practice under their belt. The staff at many mid-sized or smaller law firms is also older. Its all about maintaining relationships with clients in a law firm. An older staff worker that knows the clients for years is a valuable asset to the firm.

Law firms face problems sometimes with people that are older that can't perform their jobs anymore. It is a real dilemma for them that they handle very tactfully because of age discrimination issues. Some people just don't know when its time to fold'em.

Older workers that are motivated can offer a breadth of knowledge to any company that is only acquired by years in the job. Many companies don't want bleeding edge; they want stability, practicality, budget-conciousness and knowledge of their particular system. Younger workers that have never cut their teeth in Corporate America probably wouldn't be happy in these scenarios. This is the realm of the "seasoned professional."

I hate being called "seasoned" because I'm older. I might season my steak, but I'm not a piece of meat because I'm older. I understand what the meaning of it is, but its almost a derogatory remark in a way.

Seasoned, hmmmmmmm...

by robert

Robb, remember that what goes around, comes around. You won't be young forever. I'll admit that most of the really significant science that gets done is done by folks under 32. Check your history for that. There are many exceptions.

In a well-run shop, there is a range of experience and age from the "newbie" to the "geezer". Each has a contribution to make, and not all of it is in writing code. Sometimes it is very valuable to avoid making the same mistake over and over, which the young tend to do. The old folks, having made the mistakes before, avoid them. The smart young learn from the mistakes of others. The dumb young insist on making their own mistakes, often with sequels. The tone of your post suggests that you are in the latter group.

by dotxen

Hi and thanks for your contribution to this debate.

I am 55 years old/young(?) and I wrote the topic to create a response and a debate. It worked. didn't it?

Thank you for your kind response. I agree with you and thanks for your comment that I "belong in the latter group". made my day!

Robb

by zlitocook

Just getting in the way! You can learn any thing you need off the internet. And you went to the best schools and receieved the top grades! But wait a second the teacher was an old guy, the things he taught you were from an old guy. The new stuff that you are using came from an old farts ideas. I bet what ever you can think of the old farts have thought of.
I give you a quest, find out what we could not about the net and not just about the end and the next net. How about the next net and how you will reach it. Tip the sky is not the last place to look.

by hal 9000

Would kill you mate but at least you would die with a smile on your face. :p

Col ]:)

by dotxen

Thanks for your comments to my topic Ageism etc. I agree with you and I think if you take a moment to read my topic Prejudice and cynicism in the IT sector, IMPOSSIBLE!, you will get a clear idea of where I am coming from.

Thanks and well done.

Robb

by thechas

When I am in a position where I am involved with the hiring decisions, the nod goes to the most qualified candidate.

An older candidate often has an advantage.

First of all, they have learned people skills. They can listen and interpret what the actual problem the user has is.

Secondly, an older IT person does not have a need to implement new technology just because it is new. He / She is not afraid of new technology, just cautious.

Where I work, DOS and "OLDER" languages are still in daily use. Not because of any fear of new technology, but because we use a lot of custom code that just won't run on new hardware or under XP.

Hire the person with the skill set you need. Youthful enthusiasm does not always make up for solid OTJ experience.

Chas

by roger99a

Where I work we have had both young and old in out IT department, non as old as I, but we have some folks in there 30's, right out of college and new to IT. I've noticed these guys learn just as well as the younger guys, but with a big difference. First of all they never pretend to know everything. They are quite willing to ask for help and always more cautious. They rarely do anything dangerous. The more important thing I've notice though is that they are generally better liked than the young ones. We've had a couple of real young guys that were almost universally disliked for talking to the end users like they were morons.

by why me worry?

I agree with the notion that younger IT employees tend to talk to end users in a very condescending and demeaning manner and lack customer service skills. The older guys have had their share of tongue lashings and warning and know better than to resort to being wise asses and mavericks when it comes to implementing something on the network. I know because I used to be one of those young punks with an attitude and I ended up losing a consulting job because of it back in my early days. It takes a good ass kicking and losing ones job for reality to set in and quickly set someone straight about proper behavior in the workplace.

by deepsand

Best keep it a secret.

There's no more sure fire way to piss off an experienced officer than to suggest that he's too old for the job.

by why me worry?

which I will translate into English that talks about old people and experience

"Ne oochiy papoo kak pravelno yebatsya" in Russian

which means "don't teach your father how to properly f**k" in English

by dotxen

Thanks for your comment on my topic Ageism etc. I very much appreciate that you were moved to respond.

Please be kind enough to read my new topic Prejudice and cynicism in the IT sector, INPOSSIBLE. I think that you may find that we are not too far apart.

Thanks again for your contribution.

Robb

by dksg

A little testosterone and a lot of naivete can go a long way can't it. Comparing IT methodologies to driving a Ferrari leads me to think that the owner of this thread would much rather be pumpin and jumpin than taking a serious and responsible approach and discipline with his work.

This is the problem with the current generation. They perceive that there is a silver spoon hanging from their lips - the problem is they don't know $hit from $hinola LOL!! Give 'em ten or 20 and they'll catch up.

Old Fart Integrator

by tony hopkinson

a response.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not a complete idiot.
Second thoughts I'm not until you prove you deserve that level of respect sonny.
If 90% don't know what DOS is , does that mean only 10% know what they are talking about ?
As for employing a 55 yeal old, as ofr a devloper, if I could work with them, if the knew the fundamentals (I don't need to read a list of f'ing certs, to know that), and if they had the experience comensurate with their age, then I'd certainly consider then as a useful resource. It would all depend on the make up of teh current team. You need a mix of age/experience. All young or all old you are going to have have people making the same mistakes the old folks made years ago, or a an instant massive skills gap when they all retire.

by caughtlbw

I cant remember seeing a more perfect discussion topic for guaranteeing that people click on your profile link (hoping to discover your age), and thus on the links to your various business websites!

Well done!

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)

by tony hopkinson

his audience, fetched a big pile of irrascible 'old timers' out to justify their existance in the glaring light of youth as it were.
We may have a budding ProteusX here, can't wait till he weighs in to trounce the young whipper snapper.

by apotheon

There's a decent chance of backfiring, though. I'm making notes on possible businesses to avoid, thanks to him.

by dotxen

I admire your own cynicism. I am sorry if you think that I was being 'cute' by starting the topic.

Let me explain. I am a 55 year old network systems engineer and instructor. I train military personnel for the transition to civvy life. I find that many people are very concerned about thier age when wanting to train for work in the IT industry. Most of the people I train are over 35 and have 12 to 22 years in the military. I tell them that our industry is tolerant and values experience. However, I did a little tril here in the UK. I made myself unemployed and applied, properly, for over 100 vacancies. I told the truth about my age and I placed a current photo of myself on each CV/Resume. I have not had one single interview.

I then set about writing a CV for a youger man, incuding all the same information. I put a photo of myself when I was 30 on the CV. I have received an interview offer for 75% of the applications I have made using that CV.

I wrote this topic to create debate. Thankfully it is an issue that many of us are concerned about. Including you, it seems.

Thank you for your contribution. However, please try not to be so cycical. It really can deny you an opportunity to seek and see the truth.

Thanks again

Robb

by caughtlbw

But you're not being cynical enough yourself. I had looked at your websites, and could immediately see that nobody involved in a business such as yours could possibly have the crude attitudes you were expressing. So I had no doubt that you were attempting to stimulate a genuine debate.

Just couldn't resist winding it up a notch.

Anyway, to return to the point....

As your quite extensive experiment proved, the IT industry exhibits ageist attitudes.

This ageism partly derives from another characteristic of the industry, which is that it's reasonably meritocratic (or, perhaps more accurately, technocratic).

This might seem surprising. If success and advancement are due largely to merit and/or technical ability, then surely age is of even less relevance than usual?

However, a consequence of the rapid reward and advancement of individuals based on their ability, skills, and results is that they are often moved into positions of some authority at quite a young age.

It's normal in the IT industry for people in the age range of 28 to 35 to find themselves in "leadership" roles. They are responsible for running projects (often very large projects). They are responsible for running departments. Part of this responsibility is usually recruitment.

They might not have the final say on recruitment, but they'll often be doing the initial screening of cv's, and the early interviews.

Now, it's a common failing of us all, that we can feel insecure about managing a subordinate who's substantially older than ourselves. This is particularly true when we're young and (relatively) inexperienced.

So, as a 30 year old PM putting together our project team, or as a 32 year old Helpdesk Manager filling a support vacancy, it can be daunting to consider a 45 year old applicant.

This partly reflects the lack of management training in the industry. We respect and reward technical ability, and assume that a technically competent individual will somehow be a good manager!

The early rewards available in the IT industry are a good thing, and many of us on this discussion site will have benefited from them. The downside is that many important decisions (such as recruitment) are being made by people who may lack the maturity and life experiences to fully inform those decisions.

by Member 27824808

Memory is key to learnig new things. If you admit that memory goes with age, then you admit that older people learn new things with more difficulty, since part of learning is retention.

by tony hopkinson

is knowing. Someone who thinks they know it all, doesn't bother to learn. Some of us have been around long enough to know we don't know sh.1.t. That's nothing to do with age, it's attitude. I haven't lost it as I've got older, in fact if anything over time I make less and less assumptions about what I 'know' and not because I've forgotten it.

by hal 9000

I've seen far to many graduates coming out thinking that they know it all when actually they don't even know what sh## is.

I've always liked one of Uncle Albert's sayings that goes something like this "No person should be allowed to leave College without know just how little they actually know!"

That College degree only gives you the right to go out and start learning your trade nothing more nothing less you have been given the basic ground rules and from there on you have to learn what must be adhered to and what can be bent a bit and what can be ignored totally and just how these rules change with changes to technology.

As the Resident Dinosaur here I'm constantly being approached by the younger know it all for a solution to their problems which they can not work out for themselves. One actually accused me of being a Know It All Bastard because I could always answer any of his questions in a few seconds and most of those he had being bashing his head against a brick wall for days. I use to drive him crazy until he figured out that I knew a little and whenever he ran into a problem instead of attempting to work it out for himself he just asked me.

I called it cheating he called it using the resources available to him.

Just think when we all start using Linux or M$ Unix what I learned all that time ago will again be not only useful but important again.

Col ]:)

by deepsand

The American Indians have an adage which describes the issue you address.

[i]"As grows the circle of light, so grows the circle of darkness."[/i]

I.e., the more we come to know, the more we grasp the depth of our ignorance.

by deepsand

That one might not easily retrieve data stored long ago does [b]not[/b] mean that new data cannot be easily stored & retrieved.

by tonythetiger

How any users can remember what's in that word perfect file on their network drive with the 1989 file date? (I'm in the process of cleaning up the server :))

by sleepin'dawg

but when I'm looking for inspired bug free code I won't get it from some snot nosed newby who doesn't have the experience to be able to visualize the needs of the end user never mind grasping the concept of the project. There are people who have 20 years experience and then there are the people who have 1 year of experience repeated 20 times. Some newbys can be very, very good but in general the majority are still getting their feet wet whereas the older guys with 10+ years under their belts run circles around them and the 20+ year guys ride herd on the whole bunch. Show me the newby that can read raw code, regardless of language, and recognize the routine and which app it fits. Sunshine, you've got a long way to go before you start putting down the older guys. They may not have the certs or diplomas that you have but I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that those guys will knock out more bug free code in a day than you will in a week and thats 30+ years of experience from a guy who signs pay checks. You're talking the talk but you have to stand erect before you walk the walk.
Addendum re: recompense. The reason wrinklys drive hot cars is because we can afford them and buy them unlike wannabes who lease them. Wannabes understand the cost of everything and the value of nothing. Doesn't it gall you when some old fart buzzes past you in his 'vette or Jag with some hot little honey in the seat beside him. That's 'cause he can afford the car and her and she knows it whereas with you, unless you inherited it or are dealing on the side, she figures you as a shot in the dark. Mull that one over.

Dawg ]:)

by bernard9clark

I have been working on Electronic equipment for twenty years. from octal to hexidecimal each time I had to adapt to the change and demand of the company and technology. Learning to adapt on your own it the mantra of our age. It has been proven to me no matter how old you are in order to survive it the job market you adapt or die. I have notice alot of the young (egocentic) have not accept this idea and expect everything to stand still until they get it together, by that time it has past them by. I am 54 and still going strong I am able to work with Windows at the command-line, adjust the register and not have to use a mouse. This genertation of techs and user are helpless when the mouse fails.

by deepsand

I started machine coding PENNSTAC in octal; the only mice aroung were those who figured out how to get into the Armory's basement, where all those vacuum tubes kept them toasty wrm in the winter.

I never ceased to be amazed at the number of youngsters that, for example, are totally clueless about using the keyboard for shortcuts & navigation.

Many of them don't even know what a three-finger salute is!

by jaqui

if you use a mac you get ripped off, they send a one button mouse so you have to violate the design concept of not keying to use it.

then, if you are crazy enough to use newer winders versions, if the mouse dies the computer is useless, as they killed the keyboard shortcuts ( other than alt f4 to shut down ).

I like my linux, and usually run in console. with no gpm installed, so it's all keyboard work.

mouse use shows a lack of skill with systems.
steal that boys mouse and see how well he can function!!!
make him learn that command prompt is your friend.

by why me worry?

no, but seriously, anyone who doesn't know that the 3-finger salute means holding down CTRL-ALT-DEL is a complete IT newbie in my book

by hal 9000

"They prattle on about how important understanding DOS is, when no-one gives a toss about DOS anymore and 90% of current IT folk don't even know what it is!"

What a scary thought and just how nice it would be to work in a place that considered DOS as unimportant. You are of course welcome to come play with a relatively expensive computer controlled Lathe that I keep running which uses DOS to work. Yes they could replace a perfectly good 2 Million $ piece of equipment with a embedded XP or Linux Lathe costing nearly 4 Million $ to buy and then requiring the whole place to be changed over to work the new piece of equipment with no manufacturing advantage. Incidental all the other computer controlled machinery would need replacing as well so I suppose the bill would be nearly .5 Billion $ and then there would be the lost production to take into account while things where changed and the operators got to know the new systems.

You are welcome to advise these people to do this but I would stand well clear as the fitters tend to clout you first and then trample you into the ground before even considering your advice.

Of course I'm sure that the management would be more than happy to bankrupt the place just to have some new equipment which their workers couldn't use. :D

Are you REAL or are you just attempting to pull out legs?

Granted I'm willing to believe that you wouldn't want to visit this place as you would get covered in S##T which is hard to clean off and you would have to avoid the fitters who use the stuff as they are likely to Deck you just because of your Smart Aleck remarks but mainly you would want to avoid this place because it isn't Air Conditioned and a clean room where you have it easy.

If I was to employ you , you would be undergoing some massive retraining before I let you loose on my customers and you would be not only learning DOS but Unix as well and understanding these long before you where allowed out.

Welcome to the real world where nothing is as simple as the text books say they are. :p

Col ]:)

by hal 9000

Microsoft gave me a wireless keyboard and mouse after I wore the mouse out and got the whole thing replaced with a new one I no longer bother to put batteries in the mouse and just use the keyboard.

With the Projector setup hanging from the ceiling and the wireless keyboard in "My Rocking Chair" I can do almost everything that I need to except insert & remove the the blank and burnt CD's/DVD's from the burner and file them. :p

But it isn't too hard to get up to fit/remove these things as my rocking chair is one of those electrically operated ones which literally stands me up without any effort on my part. The massager isn't bad either and along with the heating why would I want to move from the bloody thing? :D

But I'm working on a system to do it all for me since my auto loader tape backup system has been taken away from me. :(

Col ]:)

by sleepin'dawg

You wouldn't get that from a new windows or even Linux, setup. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Dawg ]:)

by hal 9000

Other than the box's on the machines sucking in junk and shorting out the M'Board nothing ever goes wrong with any of it. :)

Since I've rebuilt the boxes a few times now on the last rebuild I've added intake filters so at least the bigger bits don't get sucked in but all I have to do now is get them to clean the filters on a semi regular basis. :D

The lathe I was thinking about has a 21 foot bed and something like a 4 foot swing it is very big and heavy. ;)

God I love this work especially when I can make things better than new. :p

Col ]:)

by deepsand

While their numbers are dwindling, there have been numerous cultures where the practice has been that one first marries an older person, who will teach you; and, following their death, you then marry a younger person and teach them.

A rather logical practice, don't you think?

by hal 9000

There have also been cultures where the women are handed around to any male visitors as an act of acceptance to the dwelling. In these cultures it is not only considered as an unpardonable sin not to accept but you are inviting a good bashing as well.

Col ]:)

by black panther

We are worth a lot more to society than young UNI educated, wet behind the ears, no respect, drug taking children, whom have no practical experience in the industry.

I back experience anyday! and the trend is starting to show that!

and young fellow take a note of this for the future - it may help you!

"For every action there is equal and opposite reaction."

Every human thought, word and deed is a Cause that sets off a wave of
energy throughout the universe, creating calm and desireable, or stormy
and undesireable Effects.

by dotxen

You are right of course.

Please read "Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!", my new topic to see exactly where I am coming from and the problem that we all will face as time passes.

Thanks again

Robb

by ctbrowning

Notice this that most of your techs out of School can't figure out whether to wind there butt or scratch thier watch, without the help of some old trainer or supervisor that has the common sense to ask questions first then analyze the situation for the best possible solutions. the new kids these days can't spell dos because it's not taught or necessary yea some of old guys remember how to work in the old dos prompt age and still compare some of the commands but guess what when XP goes the way of the Dodo so will you in your 40's. Each advancement made is based on the last success completed guess what if you can't beat the Old guys how are you gonna be a success. careful how you measure you might not make it with this particular point of view.

by zlitocook

Who wants an old fart around! All they do is complain about the system and just sit around. Why on the last job I was at all they did was put calls on hold, put off installing patches to operating systems and played games on computers. They even skipped meetings about new ideas for the company profile. Then they stayed late for stupid updates instead of going to a great party that another old fart had going on, with great babes. And now we can not get in touch with him because he turned off his phone and pager! Bad old guy. Wait this old guy was there for the call and was around for the upgrade. And some of the older people do know more then the person right out of school!
Dam what a idea a person who has been around a while knows more then you! Some of the older folks were hackers before you learned about them, and they like you asking about them:). Dont think that because you went through a great school that you know every thing. Experence and on the job training has alot to do with what you know and can use.
Sorry just thinking out loud.

by hal 9000

Where hackers before there was such a thing as a Hacker and it was legal as at that time no laws had been passed to try to prevent this from happening. ;)

They would use their Z80 or older CPU driven play toys with a 300 Baud acoustic modem and get into mainframes without a bit of trouble and then anywhere around the world where there was a computer connected to a telephone line. They could reek havoc if they wanted to but mostly they just stole processing power and got the off site mainframes to do their work for them. :)

And what made it even better was there was no way to trace them. :p

Col ]:)

by sleepin'dawg

Not you of course. You'd never stoop so low or would you??? :^O
Of course you never used your own phone, just in case but it did keep your credit history sparklingly clean up to a AAA rating. God, those were the days but then again maybe not.

Dawg ]:)

by sleepin'dawg

Not you of course. You'd never stoop so low or would you??? :^O
Of course you never used your own phone, just in case but it did keep your credit history sparklingly clean up to a AAA rating. God, those were the days but then again maybe not.

Dawg ]:)

by dotxen

Please read my new topic "Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!". I think it may put into perspective my position.

As for Maxwell Edison? You have to be an old fart, right?

Thanks for your interest.

Robb

by maxwell edison

.
A 50 year old knows exactly what it's like to be 30, but a 30 year old has no idea what it's like to be 50.

by sleepin'dawg

And 50 year olds should note that 60 year olds know what it's like to be 50. All the tricks but meaner and dirtier if need be.

Dawg ]:)

by dotxen

Hello,

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my topic Ageism etc.

Please read my followup topic Prejudice, cynicism in the IT sector? Impossible!

It will put into perspective where I am coming from.

Thank you for your wise words.

Robb

by willcomp

I'm over (well over) 50 and pretty active in TQ&A. I suspect that most questions I answer are from people young enough to be my children or possibly even grandkids.

So, if I'm so old and out of touch, how come so many of you young fountains of knowledge have to get answers from me?

I suspect that Chas may have the same opinion. He's good at this technical stuff and well over 40.

Dalton

by dotxen

Thanks for your kind response to my topic Ageism etc.

Please read Prejudice and cynicism in the IT sector, IMPOSSIBLE!

I think it will put into perspective exactly where I am coming from.

Thanks again

Robb

by hal 9000

Shut-up you OLD FART! :D

We already know just how much you know but you appear to have forgotten that us "Oldies" are meant to be seen and not heard!

NAH that aint right it's the young ones that that applies to isn't it? Go right on and complain quite a bit as well. :p

Col ]:)

by willcomp

Colin,

Probably should have included you and several others as well. Just did't want to let on that ya'll might be "over the hill." Could hurt your job prospects you know :

Dalton

by apotheon

Don't be an idiot, robb.

Treat each individual as an individual. Old, young, whatever. The individual's skills and attitudes are what matter, not his or her age. I'd rather hire someone with significant experience and a better understanding of the fundamentals of computer technology than some young dork like you that thinks he knows everything.

A superficial understanding of administrative applications and GUI IDEs doesn't begin to compare to an in-depth understanding of the basic concepts that underlie the functionality of those applications. I imagine you're likely the sort that scoffs at text editors, favoring Visual Studio instead. You probably think UNIX is passe, COBOL is irrelevant, and the command line is obsolete.

As much as I joke about being "old", I'm nowhere near the age of the people you disparage so casually. I'm just old enough to recognize how very much they have to teach me. My father's been working with computers longer than I've been alive, and I'd place far more value on his knowledge than your pissant attitude.

by dotxen

Hi and thanks for responding to my topic.

may I suggest that you now read Prejudice, cycicism in the IT sector, IMPOSSIBLE!

I think it might put into perspective exactly where I am coming from.

Thanks again for you interest and your wise wordes. Couldn't agree more!

Robb

by apotheon

Regardless of age, and regardless of the truth of what you intended here, this was a juvenile stunt. You've got a lot to learn.

by sleepin'dawg

Nothing like a blinking cursor to drive some poor fool over the edge. No C:\ means no work from far too many.

Dawg ]:)

by dotxen

Hi Everyone,

My name is Robb and I wrote the topic 'Ageism? Good Idea?'.

I wrote this topic to provoke debate about a very important issue in our industry.

I am 55 years old and many of you will have egg on your faces over that bit of knowledge. I have been in the IT industry for more than 15 years and I am now a sage-like soul who now teaches IT technologies to people who want to work in my industry. One of the questions that they ask me, is "Can I get a job at my age in IT?". Because the majority of my students are military Resettlement folk, they are over 35 (in most cases). I always calm their fears by telling them just how tolerant we IT folk are and how age is a real asset. But, to be truthful, I am not sure that this is correct.

To Test this I made myself 'unemployed' and applied for 100 IT jobs. I wrote out a 'proper' CV/Resume and placed my current photograph on it. I stated my age and my qualifications correctly and I also made sure that any referees I stated would respond. Out of the 100 vacancies that I applied for over a two month period I did not received ANY offers of an interview.

I then changed my age and placed a photo of myself taken when I was 30 years old, on the CV. I sent the CV to around 25 companies (some of the original 100 too!) and have received 12 offers of interview and one direct offer of a job. 3 offers came form three of the original companies that did not respond to my 'truthful' CV.

This was not a scientific piece of research, I know that. But I believe that despite the laws about ageism and so on, in my country (UK) and in the USA, the fact remains that ageism is practiced, if not blatently, then in the minds of many of us.

I was intersted to note the many responses to my original article. May I thank all of those who took the time to respond.

I plan to take this issue further, but right now I have to start to earn a living again.

Does anyone have any vacancies?

Best regards - Happy Trails

Robb

by hal 9000

First I looked you up on your Peer Listing so at least I knew what I was getting into and treated it as a sarcastic comment with some important underling significance. :p

But more importantly who has time to interview people when you have so much work that you can not even afford the time off to interview people to try to make your life easier? ;)

Col ]:)

by apotheon

I say "problems", as in "You have some . . ."

Here's a couple of 'em:

1. You're a troll. I'm not in the business of paying trolls (while I don't do any hiring, I do have input into who gets paid for contract work, and you wouldn't get any with us).

2. You're posting essentially the same thing over and over again here. That doesn't strike me as being indicative of good programming practice. Repeating data within a system is just awful. It's also annoying.

Maybe you should wipe this user account clean, create a new one, and try to be forgotten for this stunt. You've got a better chance of getting hired by anyone with two brain cells to rub together that way.

by kenneth.godwin

But our experience in mainframe, the background we have in "purchasing" computer time for testing, and the long term knowledge of support calls at 2 am and core dumps, well, we might be the turtles of today and youth might be the rabbit but seems to me the story ends in the turtle's favor...

BTW: 50 years old, and in April of this year started studying and passed two MCP exams (score above 860 on both), completed MCT and took third for exam for HIPAA certification, and studying for addition mcp. We may be old but we are coming back after your jobs...... :-)

by meubank

Let me start off by saying that I can only hope that the origionater of this thread was pulling our chains by asking such a dumb question.....If not he is certainly the exception. In either case I believe ageism absolutley exists as I have seen it myself. As we all know as you move up the IT food chain you (by nature) becomre further removed from technology. This is a natural progression as you start dealing more and more with staffing, budgets, SBOX etc.. I believe it is more difficult for a mid life career changer to break in that it is for a kid. The main reason for this this is money... I can pay some 22 year old kid with maybe an A+ or MCSE 40k a year, work them all hours of the day and night and be reasonably sure they will stay there for a few years. A mid life career changer, however has a mortgage, car payments..kids in cloaage etc and is looking for more money.
Obvioulsy there are many things to take into condieration and the toughest thingwe all went through is breaking into this field. Another poster said it perfectly in another thread... You have to distinguish yourself from the masses of MCSE's, A+ and other vendor certs that are out there. This field is the epitome of the of the catch-22 " I can't get the job cause I don't have the experience, but I can't get the experience without the job!!"

by jaqui

with unix, linux, irix, freebsd, openbsd, bsd.

so if someone has been working exclusively with those os, they won't know the term.

by willjr

I am a 46 yo network admin. The young green behind the ears punks can't figure out the basics. No experience in this field just doesn't cut it, no matter what degrees they got.

by csobott

I always ask the more seasoned employees around the office if I don't know the answer. Just as the less experienced ask me. I don't think there is any harm in that. It is why the seasoned guy gets paid more than the newbie.

by pj-pmanager

I am ONE of those over 40. And yes there is a point where one must make a decision to continue down a Project Management path or a Technical path. Unfortunately, I have to do both these days. You talk about the "oldies" not keeping up with technology. I have to deal with the "youngins" using the most current technology. But MOST of them couldn't manage an IT project if their careers depended on it! I spend easily 50% of my time reengineering poor designs developed by the young self-proclaimed hot shots. Fortunately upper management at my company recognizes this and I get the satisfaction of axing these infestations of poor-attitudes with so-called skills when they become problems. I have improved internal satisfaction, system reliability and reduced help desk issues to practically ZERO, all with hiring more experienced employees. I have half the number of employees doing much better work than a pool of attitudes. You would not last long here!

by wahiariis

As I read through this entire post, I became increasingly aware of one sad fact, that within this field there is definately AGEISM practised.

It may not be how you think,though. I am a "newbie" 26 year old, trying to get my career started and as this thread has pointed out I will never get a job because I would be presumed to be just another hot headed, drug taking, know nothing pissant. I have read it over and over again, and the saddest part about this discussion is that it did show the opposite of what Robb had intended, that the older more knowledgeable guys would not even give a new comer a chance unless he were at least in his forties. Well what of us, women in the industry? Would we be expected to be just getting the job so that we could take time off to have more babies?

Granted with age, comes experience, but from the tone of this entire thread it seems that, either you are one of "them" or one of "us." I, however do not see myself in either group but do fear that when and if I finally land the job, all my work will be deemed Inferior simply due to my age. Isn't that in fact ageism?

by sleepin'dawg

If it's working properly, why bother. Smart man. By this time you,ve worked out all the glitches and conflicts, it probably has no internet connections and who is writing viruses to DOS these days??? Even if the manufacturers decide to upgrade their software, you can evaluate it but I'd bet it's not going to offer you anything new that it's not already doing or which you haven't already written a subroutine to get around it. That's what pisses me off is when new software upgrades of applications won't run properly except on the latest iteration of the OS. You just know you're going to be vulnerable to all the latest crap online. Most good CNC setups, that have been in place for a while, are still DOS based for that very reason. I'll say it again, smart man.

Dawg ]:)

by willcomp

In many cases highly competent technical people are promoted to supervisory or management positions for which they are ill prepared or ill suited. That usually happens because an employer wants to retain competent, hard working people and promotions into supervisory positions are the only way to provide adequate compensation.

I've seen many cases where less technically competent people made better managers due to their people and political skills. The converse is also quite true, i.e. good technical people can make poor managers because they lack those skills. I was one of those that had no business in a management position. Just wasn't cut out for it and it didn't work.

My previous employer recognized the situation and created a senior engineer/technical specialist position on the same salary level with engineering supervision to reward highly skilled personnel that weren't candidates for supervisory or management positions. Many other employers could benefit from such an approach.

Dalton

by jck

I am 36...I have no certifications...I have no Harvard degree...and I'm well on my way to what you say is "...pathetic!".

Well...I can tell you this: wake up.

If you have a boss that is rambling about DOS, get out of the job you're in. He's not doing his job and keeping things in the modern day.

My boss is 52, and he's talking about Windows Server 2003, .NET implementations, etc.

Get a grip, man. Age doesn't make you obsolete in this industry...ignorance does.

And btw, young kids can't get a job in Florida working as a door greeter in Wal-Mart cause of old folks. When Social Security tanks, those old tech geeks will come work cheap to supplement their income and put you out of a network tech job too. Remember that.

jck

by dc_guy

"The Devil knows more from being old than he knows from being the Devil."

by rfenczik

If you don't know what DOS is or how to use it, you have no business in the IT industry as it is. This comes from a newby to the IT industry who has respect for those who have come before him.

by dfox138

Not all oldies are behind the times. Many youngies are loose cannons, while the oldies are experienced, responsible, and steady workers. Remember someday you will be an oldie too. So do not put oldies down.

by baebaetech

I think you're a very young and obviously not very bright young individual. Just wait until you're 40+ and have a multitude of experience and some young know it all jerk comes along and take your spot then let us know how you feel.

by tonythetiger

Do we really want to have young whipper-snappers in our industry? Younger people (under 30s) working in the IT industry is like an 8-year old trying to get the potato chips from the top of the refrigerator... it's over his head! Buy a skate board for Christsakes! :)

There's a big difference between hiring a new person, and retaining a person who has grown with the system.

The oldies aren't struggling to keep up with change, they're struggling to keep you young whipper-snappers (fresh out of college with your puny world-views) from mucking up the systems they spent a good portion of their lives building.

And before you think it's just another old fuddy-duddy talking, just remember: We were once where you are, and you will one day be where we are.