Ageism? Good Idea?

I thought that the underside of rocks were dark.

Maybe he's just now crawled out, and is still blinded by the light.

Thanks for causing some of the kids here to expose themselves.

I'm 59.

I'm thinking about becoming an orthodox Mormon.

I'm sorry to say that I now recall but a small bit of converstional Russian, and my skill at reading it has become non-existent.

And, I hate having to try to emulate Cyrillic on an English keyboard; too many phonemes that just don't translate well at all.

Doughbree dyen.

If I misrepresented, or caused anyone any upset, I apologise unreservedly. It was never my intention to lie to anyone, just to provoke debate.

If I had 'come clean' at the beginning the debate would have been pretty poor and interesting people like yourself, may not have been inclined to make a comment.

I thank you for that.

Robb

"never trust anyone [b]under[/b] 30!"

Because all of the good acronyms have already been used.

The 30 year old can only imagine & pretend at being older.

we "hacked" the Mod 50 via the RJE terminals.

Blue, red, & black boxes anyone?

As a 40ish geek (about to become 42) with 22 years experience, I would have to disagree that IT is just for the young. I moved into management 5 years ago, and found I missed the work. So I started my own computer services business and am extremely successful. So no, its not just for the young. Age is relative anyway.

As for brain rigidity, I believe that if we are continually learning and willing to try new things (ie. you have not become a close-minded know-it-all), the brain never gets rigid.

If we sit back and allow ourselves to become arrogant, that's when we cease to be valuable.

I cound't agree with you more! I am 50 years old, and have been working in IT for most of my adult life, and quite honestly, I think about all of the young people in IT now as I check my bank balance via the Internet, and review my stock options from investments I made when I was your age!

Just think about it; all that time we were out there writing code and operating computers from the seat of our pants, wondering which flintlock to change in the bad op amp, and going blind by attempting to read resistor color codes, and connecting electronics components with lead solder, we were unaware that the industry would change, making us obsolete and useless. It's a good thing that I don't have to get burned by changing tubes, computing interelectrode capacitance, troubleshooting Darlington logic circuits, or pursue those pesky certifications anymore. I've found a new niche; working in Human Resource Management and use my useless skills to help others get into the Information Systems business; while convincing them that in twenty years or so, the 'complex computing and network devices' they work on now will be no more than an household appliances, like a toaster or a telephone.

Thank God for giving me the foresight of being aware of the everchanging IT field, and allowing me the chance to evolve with the times. I wouldn't wnat to be confused with anyone who owns a business that tauts age discrimination and intolerance.

Its a good thing I acquired those 'soft skills' like management principles, communication skills, human resource management and other disciplines necessary to survive in the future IT world. Otherwise, I might be the victim of a lawsuit for not complying with the little legislative nonsense in the ADEA, ADA and crap like that! Otherwise, I might fall to the employment wayside, like the TV, VCR and the shoe repairman! I'm pretty sure that they thought their occupations were as solid as you think IT is now! I only hope that those High Expansion Foam systems I helped to design for the National Oil Companies in Dubai worked well enough to save lives then (and possibly , now).

In answer to your question; I would hire the best candidate, regardless of their age. As a military retiree, I learned a long time ago that most things get better with age, and that things get easier for the young. Now, at 50, I realize the net worth of all of my ambitions and experiences is not about the consequences of aging, but the rewards. Unless you plan on not reaching age 50, I suggest that you open your eyes and think about your future, and whether it includes being a little more tolerant.

Meanwhile, I have a 6 year old grandson who is emailing me right now with a question on how to change the background in Outlook. Maybe his generation will set things straight...

I'm a youngish buck (30) and I was pretty brash in my early years as an IT consultant. I had a great mentor. He let my brash attitute get me in trouble, but he also backed up my good ideas (that may not have been fully thought out). He gave me the ability to THINK and ACT in a professional setting while working with others.

I think the best combo is a brash young kid and the old jedi. I'm in the middle now and I'm teaching those brash young kids. They have some good ideas, but they can't always answer the hard questions, nor can they actually implement what they talk about...that isn't to say we shouldn't listen to 'em.

The old jedi some times are inflexable and set in their ways. Sometimes they only want to do things that they have done before and don't want to take the risk of trying anything new. However, the old jedi usually knows better and should be listened to.

Where am I? Somewhere between brash young kid and old jedi. I still go off half cocked sometimes...and sometimes I have a great idea that falls flat because I didn't think it all the way through...I still have my homeruns and my great ideas, but I've become more conservative and more thoughtful about my actions (and the effects they will have not just on the system I'm working on, but globally). Of course, now I am the jedi master to my young padiwans. My students are going to go out in the work force well balanced and strong in the force...So if you need a young padiwan, I have a few for you...

But there are times that I do feel that I'm being used when I see others take the kudos for work that they have done after getting me to fix problems that they have created.

They are only too willing to take the praise and promotions for the work which wouldn't have got done without my help and then I don't get given any of the credit for their so called excellent solutions.

I suppose that is why I got out and started my own business and what made it even worse is that most of the time me being their manager was the one recommending them for promotion for their work.

It was just that I didn't like it when they got all the praise from those higher up the food chain and I was starting to be treated like a non-person who was only there under sufferance as so much more work could have been done without me being there. But the really funny thing was that once I left and went out on my own every one of the staff who was under me followed me and what was supposed to be a small operation with a lot of free time turned into a full scale operation and I'm back where I started.

The holiday lasted all of about 12 hours. :(

Col ]:)

Word Perfect. It's still my preferred Office Suite and I use it all the time admittedly I'm now up to version 12 and it has so much more to play with than Office and now is completely interchangeable with the M$ standards.

But every one of the people who work for me where died in the wool Office people who would sneer at me for using such an old program and not getting with the times now they not only want WP installed on their workstations but are demanding it there and wanting Office dropped as they now prefer it to the M$ offering. ;)

The current version of WP can open both WP and Office documents without a single problem or loss of formatting be they word, Excel. Power-point or whatever Office on the other hand can not do the same to any WP documents. :p

Just be careful removing any old WP files as quite a lot of them are very useful as they have the basic templates for most of any business forms.

Also they are quite often the ones used when downloading some of the older forms to comply with Government Requirements as these tend not to change often and can stay the same for years at a time.

Col ]:)

It's going to take ages to clean up the monitor screen. :(

When I read your post I had visions of a cartoon I saw ages ago with a guy trying to hide on top of a closet and a bunch of women fighting among themselves each claiming that it was their turn tonight.

The Guy was saying he needed rest and the women where working out in what order they where to be serviced. :D

Col ]:)

I worked for IBM back then and was the Mainframe Senior Tech I already had unlimited access so I didn't need to hack the system.

But in all fairness it was my job to protect the system so I used to look at other systems to find weak spots and then lock mine down. :D

Col ]:)

Now if only I could work out how to fire myself. :p

I not allowed any sharp implements as I might try to slit my wrists just to kill off my Boss I really hate his guts with a vengeance now. :D

Actually if anything we have too much work as all the business that we work for are sick and tired of being sold a Pig in a Poke and we get called in to fix the mess after the event. I'm still remembering a complete new system sold to one company with no network face plates on the walls and no software other than Windows on any of the Computers they listed their requirements and where then provided with a heap of junk and no software. But the thing that really got me there was one workstation with recovery CD's and no CD/DVD/Floppy drive. I fitted a DVD drive to the machine as I couldn't quite figure out just how to install any software to it and I wasn't going to use their network to do it as their only way of getting files from one computer to another was to e-mail them. Now their ISP rented space of a server farm in the US and only had a small remote site here all running Red Hat 7 or something like that so to move a single file it first went over an DSL connection to the local ISP then was bounced off a satellite to the US base then sent straight back. Seemed like a lot of unnecessary effort to go to just to move something 10 feet to me at least but they thought it was marvelous until they got their first ISP bill. :D

It goes without saying that I set it up properly and now they have a working network but I wasn't allowed to fit a gateway as they had been told that their setup was as good as it gets it was a DSL modem connected straight to a hub with no AV software on any computer.

Actually when I first walked in the only software in the entire building was a copy of MYOB for their accounting package which they had previously so that wasn't supplied by the pimply faced youngster who sold them the setup. And no matter how much I begged them I wasn't allowed to install any AV software even the free stuff as they where told it was unnecessary :D well that lasted all of about a week when they got hit and everything was infected. ;) They where lucky and got a nasty one which required a complete reload. :(

Or the computer that was requested with two monitors so that the salesman could be at his desk looking at one monitor and the customer on the other side with a clear view of the second monitor and no way of fitting the second monitor. When I rang up the supplier he insisted that yes he knew that they wanted 2 monitors for that workstation but he didn't realize that they wanted to use them at the same time. :D Now just why would you buy 2 monitors for one machine?

God that still haunts me to this day it was a total mess and something I never want to even think about again let alone see something as bad. :p

Col [:)

I would think that most of us here acknowledge the fact that we need to have new blood in the industry and are only too happy to train as you like to call them "Newbies!"

It's just that you can not expect to walk into any organization and have the run of the place implementing new software/hardware Willy nilly and compromising mission critical systems. Like the rest of us you have to pay your dues doing the work that at first appears mundane and repetitive but this work actually helps build your people skills so you can relate to the end users without upsetting them or down right PISSING THEM OFF!

If you walk in with the attitude that you know it all and the others at the place are all Old FARTS who know nothing you are in for a world of hurt as you will never get anywhere as most of us will allow you to hang yourself.

But if you at least have some idea that you just might learn something from those Old Farts you should go far. It's only when you start rocking the boat that you'll find you have problems like ignoring your immediate supervisor and making complaints directly to HR about how you are being held back and not allowed to do the work you where employed to do.

I'm not one to believe in the CATCH 22 position at all over my 30 + years I've had well over 200 new people through my places of employment all of which I was more than willing to train up and I've had about 50 who ended up very quickly as well because they are unwilling to accept that they do not know everything possible.

It is an unfortunate fact of life that those few are the ones that we remember because of the problems that they created for us to fix rather than the hundreds that worked out perfectly. But you can not expect to walk into any organization and be given Mission Critical Work without at the very least first learning how the place works and what is required. In any business radical changes always mean lost income and problems so we tent to tread carefully and test things out for a long time before considering implementing them. The same applies to new staff they have to prove themselves as responsible people before they are given higher levels of responsibility. Provided you are willing to actually work and not expect that the world owes you, you should not have too many problems as any IT Professional knows that you can only gain the necessary experience with time and you need to be slowly introduced to the business end of things. Throwing people into the deep end where they can sink or swim just doesn't work in this industry as most will sink like a stone and take the business with them straight to the bottom. This is in no ones best interests!

Our role in IT is to provide the infrastructure so that the business can run efficiently and we serve we are a means to an end not the end itself.

Col ]:)

Robb, you truly are narrowminded if you think IT is just for the young. IT is for anyone of any age that is so inclined. Age is an asset because of the breadth of knowledge you acquire over the years, not a curse. You can't read it in a book, you have to experience it, live it.

If I had to hire someone, my criteria wouldn't include age. It really depends on the person, their qualifications and how well they would fit into the culture.

I think you really need to work on becoming more open-minded. I think you think being younger is superior. Age really is unimportant. Everyone is unique. There is room for all of us.

"A wrinkly driving a sportscar - Pathetic!" WRINKLY? Robb, what is that? Some respect here, please. Trust me, one day you'll be the man in the car.

Hummmm Well ok that will be ok if she understands that computers are eleet and can help with 4fleetdls. And wipes the drives when needed!
Sorry I reverted I would love to teach a woman about computers, and have her do more then I have done. Woman are alot better then guys in getting things done. Because they finnish things and most guys dive into a project but will not get it done because another job comes up. We need a womans touch, And I mean on the job!

Robb, (with 2 bb's? how droll. you must be from California.)

Anyway, I wanted to reply to you directly, mainly because of your "wrinkly in a sports car" comment. I'm willing to bet that Paul Newman, at 76, could still outdrive you around any track.

I'm approaching 53, and I'll be the first to admit that I am not everything I once was. And I used to tease the heck out of the old guys that I worked with. But I just traded my Z28 for an Infinite G35 coupe, and it feels like an old man's car to me. I shoulda got a Z-car, or a Vette.

And by the way, it's you little boys who grew up on 4-cylinder rice grinders that drive like old men these days. I find myself having to pass more of you than I do "old men" (or women).

Wisdom is gained through experience. It is not how fast someone grasps new ideas or how quickly they can "talk the talk". Importance in business is understanding how the technology will provide the solutions the business needs. THAT and only THAT is what it is about.

I have known quite a few under 30s who can't do a thing when it comes to IT solutions in business, but I would give the over 40 crowd the same problem and come up with a more effective answer.

I have spent over 20 years in IT/IS across many industry sectors on both domestic and international projects. I also spent 15 years teaching at the college level while working full time in the industry. My findings: the younger the participant, the less they wanted to do. The older the participant the more committed and motivated they were.

On assignments, the older students went out of their way to exceed the requirements, the younger students did the minimal to get by. At work, the younger employees did exactly as they were told and went back to surfing the net or playing online games, the older people looked for other projects that needed doing and mentored other people.

I am not saying that this is true in all cases. This is what I have observed in my career. I would say about 60-75% of the time, the older employee was more valuable to the company.

anyday of the week/year/etc. I learn a whole lot more and am more productive. That isn't to say I can't work with the younger crowd, but I find a willingness to share knowledge and be polite about others shortcomings in the older group.

My closest colleagues are all over 55. I love working with them and EXCHANGING knowledge. Sometimes I show them something and sometimes they show me. As I said before, it isn't about age. It is about knowledge and interpersonal skills.

For some reason, I have been reading here at TR quite a few discussions about the only way to reward effective technical people is to promote them in order to pay them what they are worth.

Why? Why not just give them the pay increase? Why is the title of supervisor or manager important? If you think money is the answer, then just give them the raise or a bonus. No promotion necessary.

However, if the person really wants to become a manager/supervisor then provide a career path mentoring system so that when they are promoted they are ready and so is their replacement in their old position. Just my opinion and something I found effective in one of the companies I worked for, until senior management changed and decided that wasn't the way it should work. Not surprising how fast the top performers left.

I've been working with computers for over 20 years. I don't consider myself to be a geezer. However, by your post, I would consider you a 'young whipper snapper' who doesn't know any better. I'm guessing you're the type who KNOWS EVERYTHING and can't be bothered listening to history and a possibility there may be a different way of doing things.

I'm not 55, but we've just hired a DEVELOPER who is closer to that than I am. And SHE'S running rings around the younger guys.

Think before you speak (or type). It will save your a** in the long run.

In places where I've worked the initial interviews have been done by the "Sales Types" who then screen the applicants and would then pass on their best choices to me to do the finial interview and any hiring that was required in my area of the business.

On every occasion they would "Weed Out" the really good candidates and leave me with people who they thought where presentable and almost totally useless for the positions that I needed filled.

This would work out quite well for entry level Techs but was a total failure for experienced people when they where required as I would just about always be presented with a pile of CV's all from wet behind the ears Graduates who didn't know anything at all for what we required but they had a piece of paper so they must be good and they look nice so the customer will be happy. It didn't matter that most of these people would in all likely hood never leave the building to perform any work.

What I ended up doing when experienced staff where required was to grab all the applications and then go through them myself and call in who I though best fitted the bill for our needs and then hired who I wanted rather than who they thought I should have. It got particularly bad one time in North Queensland as the guy that I selected was totally undesirable for the marketing people as he had long hair and a beard. The hair just covered his color in a shirt and the beard was only about 1 inch long. What these Sales People failed to understand is that in that area you have to do things like that just to protect yourself from the sun and avoid Skin Cancer or at least minimize it as much as possible. When I explained why the guy wore his hair the way that he did and had a beard all the objections disappeared but in the mean time it was a nightmare.

One of my other pet gripes was the examination test that was handed out to all technical applicants they actually had various schematic diagrams and wanted to know what they where. Well I didn't mind that one too much as that was fairly basic stuff until after one guy complained I actually looked at the test and they had diagrams for vacuum tubes on it and where rejecting anyone who didn't know exactly what these things where and then further cutting down the ones that passed just on their perception of looks {Actually that should be read as age but for legal reasons this was never mentioned.} So if we had 100 applicants I would get about 4 or 5 CV's to look through to make the finial decision.

Needless to say I shredded all the exam papers and wrote my own from that point on and I got far more people to actually look at to chose someone to fill the position.

Col ]:)

In the last 10 years I have been in IT, the one thing that always stands out, Anyone can learn IT, but common sense and people skills cannot. I find the older people new to IT have better people skills
then those that are much younger. I do have a few young techs with great people skills, but sometimes there troubleshooting can slow them down.

.
And I'm not old.

I can't tell you the number of times I've interviewed where I was better prepared than the person interviewing me! I've even had a few experiences where I wondered if the interviewer had ever performed the task before as they were so poor at.

A college degree does not mean you know anything. It simply means that you have been trained how to behave (and that is corporate needs).

Dinosaurs are always kept around so as to make sure all newbies stay in check and not misuse company resources and time - like writing irelevant programs such as java applets and javascript games

The more you learn the less you know.
Ask any dinosaur - any body can write a program but very few newbies can actually write a program that anybody but theselves can actually use.

>While their numbers are dwindling, there have been numerous cultures where the
>practice has been that one first marries an older person, who will teach you; and, following their
>death, you then marry a younger person and teach them.

>A rather logical practice, don't you think?

An extremely logical practice considering the fact that most kids leave home UNTRAINED and head to college/life/factory etc.

people smart enough to make mistakes? :0)

I was strictly talking about memory and retention. You seemed to have taken it personally. If you read my other post, you prove my point about wisdom. I have relatives in their 50s and 60s that are in IT and they're great. I'm humble enough to say that my memory or ability to pull allnighters, etc has deteriorated over the years. The body and the mind will deteriorate. Fact of life. Accept it.

Retention is best at age nine. Does that makes 9 year olds the best IT workers?

Since you are making this personal, as per your old farts in mid-life crisis cars, etc.. are you one?

How do you prove it? I know I've experienced it here in my company, and lost promotions because my chain thinks you need to be a 25 year old sociopathic videogamer to understand IT. My background is extremely technical (Electronics) and I have more management experience than my current bosses...but promotions go to the 20 somethings to support an age hierarchy...

I totally agree. I was intimidated by the notion of going back to school in my 40's. I had already learned most of this on my own but I thought that I would be surrounded by young people who were smarter than me. WRONG. I was way more serious about school than they were and made the deans list. They were always gathered around my desk in the morning of test day to get answers. They were not always bright enough to know that I often times fed them the wrong ones on purpose.

In my experience the younger ones are quicker to complain while those my age are quicker to roll up their sleeves and find solutions.

MS software contains subliminal text designed to wipe newbies' memories of any recollection of non-MS products.

It works so well on some that they really believe that Word Perfect, Word Star, Lotus 1-2-3, Quattro, etal. are nothing but myths.

both professionally and in the classroom as an instructor. There appears to be a lack of self-motivation in the younger group. All I do know is I would make myself available for questions after class and the only people that took advantage was the older group coming back to get the "paper" behind their credentials. ;)

While it may not be what you [i]intended[/i] to say, you said that we are too old to effectively learn.

While it may not be what you [i]intended[/i] to say, you said that we are too old to effectively learn.

And, calling us "old farts" serves what purpose, other than to suggest an age bias on your part?

In all matters, I find that being amidst a diversity of people brings the benefit of a greater inflow of information & the joys of new discoveries.

I am led by some to understand that there are many Jewish woman who maintain that men have a religious obligation to service their women; some to the extent that one woman alone is too many.

As for myself, I enjoyed teaching.

I find that, in general, younger people not only have more to learn, but they are generally more eager to explore.

As noted above, after 30+ years of disuse, my Rooski is quite rusty.

gets them every time.

My 30s were definitely my "Golden" years.

By definition, wisdom accrues with the accumulation of life experiences, i.e. with age.

Therefore, the younger one is, perforce, less wise than he will be later in his life.

Your work will be judged on its merits, not on your age. But, given your age, your work is less likely to initially meet the desired/required quality standards.

In revising your work so as to meet said standards, you will learn from your mistakes. (One learns little from immediate successes; it is failure that is the great teacher.)

And, in the process of learning, you will also become older.

To try to temp me! No I double dare them too. Just do not tell my wife. I never said this and you can not prove it:)

To a 10 year old 15 is an unbelievable age to a 20 year old 30 is not worth living after to a 30 year old 50 is Over the Hill to a 50 year old everyone younger than them is a young whipper snapper and they are looking forward to getting to 60 so they can then start to think about retiring but still consider themselves young enough to continue working as long as they want to.

To a 65 year old they are resenting the fact that they have to retire soon because the law makes them and they still feel young enough to want to work and enjoy their work. Just for the record my little sister was born when my father was 64 years old so he worked well into his 70's and when he eventually retired no one would believe that he was as old as he claimed they all thought he was in his early 60's and his boss wouldn't even believe him when he brought in his birth certificate to prove his age. He just insisted that he must have got a copy of one of his ancestors like an Uncle or someone like that with the same name.

Then the real problems began when my father retired within 2 years had had had 3 major heart attacks and was legally blind but while he was still working he was as fit as a fiddle and had absolutely no health problems and within 3.5 years of retiring he was dead. He was a perfect example of one who should never have retired and he would probably still be going strong today turning 101 this year. :D

Col ]:)

That idea was brought about by Traditional Jewish Beliefs where the man was obliged to service the woman every day except on the Sabbath there where a few exceptions however if the man had a heavy job like being a camel driver he was allowed to only perform 3 times a week.

Some Orthodox followers of the Jewish Religion follow these teachings and some don't but basically as Gret has confirmed that the house is the womans domain and in it you do as she wants.

But personally I've found that works best all the time with any woman as they like to think that they control the situation so I just agree and shut up and do as I please.

And YES I've learned my lesson no more drinks when I open one of your postings. :p

Col ]:)

Asked for something that they didn't know about?

I always found their actions funny when faced with this as they seemed to think that they knew it all while knowing nothing.

Col ]:)

Right on, mate.

In an industry where the encryption standard changes as soon as it's time for lunch, how can one expect these fuddy-duddies to cope? Besides, if the office is filled with people taking tea breaks every 5 minutes, how's the work going to get done?

No, we need an IT battlefield, filled with young men and women, with their raging hormones, sharp wits and the drive and motivation to excel. Keen minds and able bodies who might or might not know the fundamentals of object-oriented programming, but who are well-versed in the art of writing the perfect e-mail.

And let me clarify my stand. I'm not trying to associate the lack of depth of understanding with the younger members of the workforce. Just pointing out that stereotyping can work both ways.

So why not give 'em old lads/lasses a break. And judge a worker by his/her quality of work.

Erm, gotta go, time for my tea break!

that you bring up. My feeling was that the other poster said they HAD to promote them to give them more money. My point (not articulated well enough due to my emotional response to the previous post - sorry) was why not look for other ways instead of promotions if the person doesn't want a promotion.

There are legal ways that you can use to motivate someone and reward them for their value added to the organization. I worked for one of those medium to large international companies. As I said in my post they came up with things. For example, bonuses, performance rewards, trips, and many other things.

All I am saying is that we don't have to promote people who do not want that position to find a reward. You are very correct there are a myriad of legal issues and cultural issues to navigate. That is part of the role of true leaders within the company though, isn't it?

All that is required to do is take the worker off a wage and place them on a salary.

You do not need to do anything more and because they are on a salary their payments can not be questioned.

When I worked for a Boss things like that happened almost on a daily basis.

Col ]:)

Hire a teenager while they still know everything!!
Experience means a lot.

Dude, let me tell you about my friend Earl.

Earl is, I would say, in his early 50's. He's a big burly biker dude who's been doing IT for a very long time. So long, in fact, that he helped develop the PRI standard back when he worked for AT&T.

What's he doing now? He's running a regional ISP here in Chicago with Fortune 500 clients. He does almost all of the work himself. He's a CCIE, a firewall expert. He sets up fixed wireless networks. He diagnoses and repairs Cisco core routers in minutes. He's way smarter and more current than me. And I'm 30.

Stereotypes are not necessarily a bad thing. If you have a 55 year old applying for a desktop support position, you should wonder about that. But stereotypes aren't everything.

I have been doing IT for 10 years now, and I have yet to meet a woman in this field who actually knows what she's doing. (Sales reps aside; we're talking about technical people here.) I've worked for women, with women, even hired them; but I have yet to have one of those situations work out. Is that because all women suck at IT? No, I'm sure it isn't. Talented women in IT are just a rare breed, that's all.

By the way, I sincerely hope that 90% of IT people DO know what DOS is. Sure, you won't actually use DOS as an operating system, but some form of DOS (Recovery Console, etc.) is vital for certain tasks, especially on Windows clients. Making Ghost work requires knowledge of how DOS network drivers work, at least on a functional level. Ever tried to repair (or rescue data from) a corrupted NTFS partition? Most of the avaliable tools run in DOS.

As a neary 50 year old geek, who has been in the industry since 1977, I'll put my skills against anyone! And I'll fix it, route it, switch it, or rebuild it faster that most!

So we old guys cut our teeth on DOS. Well, DOS is an offshoot the old UNIX internet, which you young guys probably forgot about. We helped invent IT when it was the in-house electrician working on the VT-100 terminals, or was that your father working at that time. Some of us old guys have forgotten more about systems than most "new" guys will ever learn, or even try to learn. Granted, you can hire three of these newbies and hope one works out, or hired someone with experience.

Some of the leading IT gurus today are the old folks that remember DOS and Windows 3.11! Heck I am 30 years old and I remember it! Does that mean I am not hirable? Would you consider Mark Minasi too old to hire? Forget age...can they hold their own? Can they step up? If so forget age...it has no more place than gender or color when it comes to hiring. If you can do the job then anything else should not be considered.

NO! Ideologies such as that typically have a basis in ignorance and arrogance. I've seen way too many techies right out of school who couldn't architect their way out of a paper bag... let alone a complex data network. Skill has as much emphasis on experience and intelligence as it does on youth and education.

If you subscribe to the theory that you can't teach an old dog new tricks, you are right although as an old dog myself I think you are wrong. What is the value of experience?

Adam has obvious problems. Competent people understand that age, gender, or race have little or nothing to do with competence. Competence is a function of attitude, intelligence, work, and patience. A closed mind can be owned by any age worker. Adam appears to have closed his at an age earlier than most.

(note. it is usually more cost-effective to have an experienced worker manage others with less experience - the premise to to try to avoid mistakes already made).

The ability to learn is not limited by age - it is limited by attitude.

I used to have the attitude of only hiring young people in their twenties, until I found out that they didn't give a crap about anything but themselves, and oh, BTW, they didn't know more than 20% of what they thought they did. Now I have a crew of 40 somethings, that are all certified (the 20 somethings didn't think that was important), are mature, appreciate the opportunity to break into the business at such an 'advanced age' and don't complain about the occasional call from a client on a weekend. Putz is too kind for this person. Did you once work for me?

I am 46 and have 21 years in IT. Keep up withnew technology, give me a break. I teach you young farts the in and out of wireless technology and what to do with it, secure it and how to trouble shoot it. Age bias isn't good in any industry. The older worker brings a work ethic to the table scares the younger set.
The gen x think they know it all and all they ahve is a lack of understanding the big picture. Small pictures only work for the short term and no the long!

Robb,

I hope you hire me and then fire me. I will make up for all of those losses in the latest recession.

You are proof of what happens when prayer is removed from public schools.

Age discrimination is exactly that - discrimination. The truth is based on performance - you need proper interviews including tests, if necessary, and a proper evaluation period. You can find incompetents of any age in every field, just as there are real wizards. Mid-career individuals can bring real value to a job - if properly selected.

I taught my 92 year-old grandmother to use email. If she heard the comments about hardening of the brain she take the punk over her knee, spank him and toss him out the window.

This was a great motivator to me. It was more than once that staff commented to me how "refreshing" it was to have a "mature" person to come work on their problem instead of the usual 20-something-goateed kid. Hmmm.

Me thinks this attitude exists only in the minds of the 20-something and has no basis in fact, nor does it accurately reflect the neds/wants/desires of the customer, be they internal or external.

In my experience people like someone they feel is seasoned.

Does anyone want a Doctor right out of mdeical school or would you rather have someone with some time in?

Judge me on my competence and I will do the same for you. If age is high on your priority list, you have a problem. By the way, who said it was your industry?

I'm only 40 but I see a lot of people several years out of school who have never used the command line. They can't even partition a drive without running setup from a cd. Starting out with DOS was the best foundation for solving problems in GUI based systems that came later.

I'm 50+ and on of the key tech people in a very large industry. I would recommend against hiring anyone who had your type of attitude either as an employee or consultant. You only show your ignorance and how much of a Bigot you are.

You are as bad as some of my own generation who in the 1960's and 70's said you couldn't trust anyone over 30! I don't think they believe that now.

Come to think of it when was the last time that someone smacked you in the mouth for being a cocky little &&&&&& ?

If you need to seek this kind of advise then you should not be sat in your chair with the authority to hire & fire ...

Keep in mind that you're only an IT user, and that the major part of development was carried out in the late 80's and early 90's when the phrases Geek and Nerd actually meant something .. Face reality what have you to worry about should you employ someone who's old enough to be your father.

With age comes experience both personal and industry, along with the wisdom that will allow the handling of difficult situations - afterall don't you ask your parents for advise and guidence ?

What have you got to fear; someone this age is not looking to stamp upon your back looking for promototion, nor are they going to run out of the door looking for another job .... what they are looking for is the ability to retain their dignity and work for a living.

look at it this way ... experience is worth several years sat in a tech lab upon a university campus; and to be honest nothing new has emerged within the IT market over the past 10 years ...

You mention DOS, it's still a functional tool that will allow you to achieve more than you think .. even better if you start talking about MS AD then ask the youngsters if this existed in another format within Novell ?

Out of interest when was the last time you read "Hogan's Run" ?

Arthur

There's advantages to both. The young, inexperienced bring new ideas, while the older experienced have that "been there, seen that" gift.

These things are like cars, the technology changes, but all the concepts and ideas haven't since I fixed Commodore PETS way back when.

PS
I just helped a couple of 21 year olds hook up a secure wireless LAN in a dorm ;)

I once had a boss who quit learning anything about computers before MS DOS came along. Somehow he managed to move up in NE State government until he was the head of an agencies IT wing. In his case he is over 55 and knows nothing but if I met him at 35 I wouldn't have hired him at that time either. I also know people over 55 who are very good at what they do in IT because they keep current on technology.

Being young doesn't mean you understand computers more than someone older, computers really aren't harder to learn than a lot of other machines that have been around for a long time.

A lot of people just aren't built for the computer field because they wanted to go to college and then just stop learning, what you really need to do is find people who continue to learn until they retire.

I am a 62 old unemployed computer technician who has work on computer for 35 years. When I started in the electronic busyness, they were using tubes for the electronic circuits. I made the transition from tubes to transistors and then from transistors to IC?s (integrated circuits.) I could not have done this if I did not have the knowledge and history of what came before. All the schooling in the world would not make some more capable then I. You need to be able to understand how things work, not just study for a test get your grade and really do not know how to use the information you have learned. As far as DOS goes, they are stilling using DOS commands to do scripting to automate network administration. I think you are missing one very important point, I have been, where you are going and I know how to solve problems that you have not even seen yet. Let me ask a question here, would you go to a doctor who was just out of school for open-heart surgery or would you want the guy who has done hundreds of operation and is at his peak? One other point, everybody gets old? and the young will be in the same place I am right now? how are they going to feel, when they feel that they are not need anymore? One last point, everyone is living longer so the young people of today will have more time being old then I. I guess you know my stand on the subject?

"As the Resident Dinosaur here I'm constantly being approached by the younger know it all for a solution to their problems which they can not work out for themselves." If they are asking for your help or advise on a problem it shows respect for your knowledge. The beginning of wisdom is admitting that they don't know everything. "none of us is as smart as all of us"

Most insecure young people who feel they are technical wizards feel this way. What they fail to realize is that older employees have a lot of knowledge necessary to be successful that the youngsters haven't acquired yet. You have successfully identified yourself. Age does not necessarily mean they are not capable of being very productive and you can both learn from each other.

Perhaps we "over 40's" should begin a boycott and stop teaching you snotty nosed, wet behind the ears kids anything and then the only thing any of you would be any good at is playing frikkin' video games. There is nothing in the world any worse than the idiots who calls themselves "Computer Professionals" but have no idea what is going on behind the pretty windows when they point and click. It's no wonder most of the "school smart" kids out there couldn't troubleshoot their way out of a wet paper bag! But they do have that piece of paper that say's they are a somebody. Turns out most of them got the certification buy cramming with "brain dumps" the night before the big test. I'm going to make a mental note to not hire anyone with the name Robb, Robert, Bob or any derivative thereof just to make sure I never have to deal with the likes of you -- too bad for the rest of your namesakes in the world. I mean why not, it makes about as much sense as your lame recommendation.

is IT managers that don?t know enough about IT to determine who is good and who isn?t. I have seen 20 year IT people with 1 year of experience repeated and some 5 year guys that can just get any job done. It is more attitude than age.

The real issue for IT in general is the lack of good management that knows the difference. I see way too many gentlemen that "manage" IT with no understanding of the moving parts. I get called into a lot of sites and this seems to be a growing issue. This last dip in the economy seems to have put the Peter Principle on steroids.

Half the time I can solve the problems they are having by simply listening to their staff.

Most of the 'young' geeks that I have seen are all snow jobs. They may know the new technologies, but they have no experience and know nothing about the real business world processing needs. Before they open their mouths, they should apprentice under an 'OLD' geek for atleast 5 years. By the way, all of the schools should start teaching COBOL again not only for the main line business processes but for the internet as well. C and C++ should be banned from business use since they cannot maintain dollars and cents accurately.

The subject matter is obviously asked to illicit an emotional response.

I know that I will always go ask the old guy when I get hung up if one is around. In my case is is the old gal, but I guess that would be another thread entirely.

I could just Google 90% of what comes up, but I can't ask Google to explain why this or that happened and what would be the best way to prevent it in the future.

Robb has a valid point in that some of older guys talk about DOS, but the issue of thme struggling with the new chages in IT is boggis. I myself am 60+ years and am running my own Computer Consultant business and find that keeping up is simple enough as long as I read about the new issues. So, hiring a person male/female over 50 who knows their stuff would not be a problem! Maybe Robb should do some reading himself especially on DOS it would give a clear picture of the architecture of all software.