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Are certifications destroying the world?

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by advancedgeek 8 views

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Or is it just the people using testking? I spent about 20 mins last night looking for free study guides for the security+ exam, and all I got was the actual test!!!! I couldn't believe how easy it was for me to find these things. I looked at some of the old microsoft tests (2000 track) and they were the exact same tests that I studied my butt off to pass! How many MCSE's do you think are out there...faking what they do? I thought about going back to college...but hell...I could fake that too. Well hey, what about experience...FAKE...I could say I did this and did that and noone would know. How many unsecure networks must there be on the internet? I shudder to think of our poor governments networks all controlled by cheaters trying to make an extra buck. It is a sad day my friends, a sad day indeed.

p.s. Security+ is a joke, the questions were so easy...but I deleted the document and will still try to learn as much as possible about it.

355 replies

by jdclyde

become appartent pretty quickly and these people will quickly be moved to upper management to get them out of the way so they can't mess anything up.

That is why many employers add the part of X years experience.

by dafe2

I like your answer..........

Agreed. Any Cert without experience today is QUICKLY seen through. Someone (here) not too long ago said: "The days when the only qualification to get into IT was the ability to breath....are LONG GONE."

Having said that, they're are still a few of those types arround.

Certs are very valuable (knowledge) tools.....when pursued and used correctly of course.

by markb-ohio

In all honesty though how many people do you know that have a bachelor degree or even a masters in something and can't tie their shoes?? This isn't a new problem with the education of adults just a new place for people to cheat.

I want to get the MCSE 2003 stuff going for me however I agree with the fact that there are some people out there that WILL be your boss someday because they cheated their way through life. I suppose that we should all just go with it and wait until the day comes that they NEED the experience and knowledge and then the people that have real education and real experience will pull through.

by rosaticrew

I think anyone who has been through even the courses for any type of certification will run into some one who can read a book and pass a test without ever having hands on experience. Unfortunitly these people also tend to get first shot at a position because I have found that most HR people are not looking for experience but certs

by bebkow

I never got certified. I did , however train an MSCE that got hired by my corporation when we set up our E-Commerce building. The guy didn't even understand basic TCP/IP. there is nothing better than experience. walking around with a cert in your pocket gets you nowhere

by tony hopkinson

You can learn the basics of TCP/IP, read a book, surf, take a damn course. But how on earth can you recieve a certification without having to know TCP/IP. Not just certs, I had teach someone with a degree in IT what is was.
It's all top level fluff, no foundation in the basics.

by tgreams

With all this talk of Certifications, which order is best to get them in?? i.e. A+, Network+, MCSE, Security+ ?? I have the experience but not certified. Procrastination is the main holdup & money for the tests. I will add, when I did tech support, I helped a MCSE certified tech diagnois video/boot failure. I was not certified so I was beneath him but he didn't know where the video card was installed on the computer. I told him it was easy to remember because it was where his monitor was connected. Also, for the MSCE 2003 or all for that matter, what schools are best for trainging for these certs?? I have inquired into a school that does teach 'hands-on' & is called ComputerTraining.com. Does anyone have any feedback on this training center??

by advancedgeek

One of my first tech jobs was working for a company that built computers among many other technical things. I ran the configuration dept and would get new people in all the time. I would see people come in with some sort of tech related bachelor degree and couldn't tie their shoes. I asked one to remove the hdd out of a machine, and he asked me "which one is the hdd!?!?" I couldn't believe this guy just spent 4 years at a school and graduated with a tech related major, and didn't know what a hdd was! However, I would get brand new a+ cert carriers that could hold their own. Of course this was 5 years ago, and the market has changed, but how much?

by kcompton

A few years back, I was this person. I dropped $9k on trainging and got my MCSE in NT4 with the promise of making $60K /yr. I was officially dubbed a "Paper MCSE". I took some contract jobs until I landed a FT gig(for much less than $60k). I have since been "in the trenches" dispelling the "paper" in my MCSE. I am a few tests away from my 2k3 MCSE and studying my tail off. Microsoft has made the tests as difficult as they can. If you have the ability to disect and understand the test questions, other than just memorization, the certification can be worthwhile. The fool is the person that thinks they know everything about a product and does not do his homework. The cert can get a foot in the door, it's what you do afterwards that counts.

by afram

I interviewed several people who had an MCSE cert listed on the resume. I proposed some very simple trouble shooting scenarios and asked what they would do first to resolve the issues. Most of the responses were so way out there that I figured they lied/cheated about the cert.

Thank you...next.

by advancedgeek

I would still be doing break/fix. The only way I got into networking was by microsoft certs. Hell I've been to two wars (iraq, and afghanistan) and a nuclear bomb facility all because I took a few tests. BTW I made six figures without a college degree...just had to go to Iraq to do it. :) -Seems like that's the problem people have finding jobs...they sit at their computer at home and look for a job on some .com site. I was willing to relocate and if you plan to make it in IT...you WILL relocate, or you will do something else (unless you live in atl, dc kinda places). But I have one great thing that most people in IT do not have on my resume...a clearance. B/c of my clearance I was able to come back from afghanistan and get a good job within a month. I was reading a few posts over and that guy Oz has some good points...you have to have the right personality to make it in any business except maybe delivering pizzas.

by dafe2

Some may be surprised how far a good attitude & selling skills will get you...............provided you say what mean & do what you say.

I carry many certs and continue to earn way more than I need (I'd do my job for a lot less but don't tell anybody).

I got there by doing 'crap IT jobs' that the silver spoon crowd felt was beneath them.

I think some people are suggesting that good tech skills will lead to management.....not so IMO. A good tech does not necessarily make a good manager.

Most techs who make it to management would do a better job asking people if they want thy're fries supersized.

Your right about personality.....& I've maintained my Certs & I maintain a secret clearance as well............It's all good every payday.

by jdmercha

I became a network admin with no certs, and having never seen a network before. But, I did have a BS in engineering and 13 years experience as a nuclear engineer.

by jdclyde

My bro just retired from the marines and walked into a great paying job. His hardest decision what which job to take, and ended up basing it on which state he felt like moving to.

I see people (college level) going into tech that snivel about they can't "find" a job anywhere and how bad things are. They don't understand why posting their empty resume on a job search site hasn't landed them a great paying job yet. And that is the extent of their "search for work". When I ask where they have go to that week, the answer is always no where, followed by a blank stare wondering what one has to do with the other.

But that is ok, because I NEED someone to deliver my pizza or ask if I would like to super size.

by bubba

Our Hospital had a position open on the Server Team, of which I am a member. We had over 300 responses, whiddled it down to 15. All had either MCSE or MCT. We interviewed 7 - NONE OF THEM COULD ANSWER MOST OF OUR QUESTIONS! Even the MCT could give us a correct troubleshoot procedure for an "Access Denied" message. This is ridiculous! More and more companies are doing the "Grill them for 2 hours" type interview to ensure someone knows what the #(^% they are suppose to know. For all you out there that got them the "EASY WAY"...I am certified and I have over 18 years experience.. dont come for an interview if you dont know your stuff!

Jim S.
Network Analyst II

by yemiweb

IT recruitments should be handled by experts! I don't think certifications should be condemned simply because 'some people are cheating!'. No matter what, some people will still have access to likely questions for any exam - it is the level of cheating that varies BUT some people are not cheating and they really worked hard for their certifications with all pride. INTERVIEWS BY EXPERTS is the key!

by xirkonax

Questioning is one thing but grilling someone over information that will most likely never be used or seen on the job is another. The interview process should be asking everday practical questions. Extreme circumstances always come up that everyone here has had to get help from someone or someplace else. I have 15 years IT experience with 8 certifications and am finishing my bachelors and I still don't know everything, I do turn to other people even junior people for help or questions.

by railis

In a previous job I worked with many individuals that had numerous certifications and some with no certifications. All in all, the guys that felt obligated to put all their certifications behind their names were jerks. They could read a book and take a test, but they had no people skills and very few if any technical skills. The guys that worked their way up from the bottom were the best technicians by far.
Certifications have their place, but so does good old fashioned hard work.

by yemiweb

Excellent! The problem is not with the certification exams but with the hiring department of organisations. Hence, the solution lies in the hiring organisation! There is no law against testing and interviews - the cheats will always be around but onus lie on the employers to go after what they really want. Certification is very good and it is the basic screening before the main interview stage.

by david_heath

the main interview seems to be no more than confirmation of the existence of certs... and a complete understanding of equal opportunity, workplace harassment laws, ethical behavior and minority emnhancement practices.

by jellimonsta

I am a UK national resident in the US but not a US citizen, therefore I am unable to get any security clearance. I have been thinking of becoming a citizen lately as not being one greatly impacts my opportunity for positions in information security.

by jdclyde

My understanding is it would really save you on what you pay for your taxes every year.

Oh no, UK is outsourcing.....

by jellimonsta

I am not sure if being a citizen would give me a bit of a tax break. Although, I am thinking uncle Sam isn't really my uncle at all?!! I think he is one of those 'pretend' uncles like my friend's Mom used to have :)

by jaqui

destroying the world.

a friend who teaches netowrking at university took the mcse, mcne exams,( win nt, 2k ) without even looking at the course.
his assesment, pick the answer that best sells microsoft's products and you will pass with flying colours..that's what he did.

though being a unix person, and fully qualified on networking with unix, those few questions that weren't multiple guess he had the knowledge to answer.

by dafe2

where cranky today.......but then I realized...;-)

I guess I'd have to ask why your friend would bother???

Someone who works with UNIX & has a few clues could write most of the newer exams with reasonable ease. Just like I could knock off an OS/2 cert without breaking a sweat. (Oh yes..I did)

Allthough you KNOW I dissagree with your friends assesment, especially after I spent years getting an MCSA, I will offer that the exams are no longer multiple choice (In the vein they were about a year or two ago)

Most UNIX people I know could do an MCSE easily I'm sure. They know they're sh.it.......but why bother???

by moshchops

Why would 'most' UNIX people know anything about MS product - most unix people are so precious about their 'real' OS (what about OpenVMS - now that's an OS).
MS exams bear no relevance to the real world - you just need to know how MS WANT you to answer the question...oh yeah 'most' UNIX people are graduates so can answer anything put in front of them!

by jaqui

since he TEACHES networking, and a lot of jobs are m$ based networks, the certs gave him the legit right to say, I have my MC*, to the students and administration, getting that respect from both groups members that need that.
( translation: I do have my mc* I know what I'm talking about you %$^$%&*%&* )

by house

The 'microsoft' answer is the best answer. I ran into this issue with the limitations of disk management in 2k. "it can be done" [i]just not with ms utils[/i]

Unfortunately, a proper MS training module will have to include sample questions in order to prepare you for the kind of propaganda that you will see in these exams.

by yemiweb

No matter how you structure the exam, I am sure the networking teacher will still pass - A networking teacher that is fully qualified on networking with Unix and obviously familiar with windows?? What do u expect! But, nice one on Microsoft marketing.

by moshchops

It is a real problem these days, when charging out consultants on projects and the resource is not certified are you cheating the customer who expects the right letters after the guys name? Internally, you know they are more than capable with years of exp. and real world knowledge that can't be matched by a few courses and exam passes! Our organisation requires certs. purely to maintain vendor accredited status - is this the same across the industry, the company wants the benefits and in our example expects most of the training time to be self paced (2 years to MSCE - with kids I don't think so!).
Bitter, no - making the move to management...

by cuteelf

I'm spending my time at school, studying etc and working towards certs to have next to my name.
HR places want the letters, and want experience, but for pete's sake, I cant get experience!!!!

I'm such a low on the totem pole, I'm asking for handsup from all my teachers etc. Getting hits for jobs, but the ones locally want 2 yrs exp plus the certs.

Me, I've got 1.5 yrs self exp and no paid experience, and some of the certs..now, I may have to go be a cashier again to pay for this stuff..and try for a job.

Its frustrating for me too.

by jdclyde

How many times have you fixed someones computer for beer? I am now setting up a network for a garage in exchange for working on my car.

If you just make up some business cards (stock is cheap and make a sheet at a time) then start counting this as your experience.

with the card you may pull in more pay jobs and avoid the cashier job. Then look at getting a license so you can claim this as legit exp.
May have to pay taxes, but if you write off every book you buy and all computer parts, you will never show a profit. Even write your cell bill off.

It us just getting something on paper, and you sound like you could do this.

Another idea. I started padding my resume by assiting teaching for community ed programs. Didn't make much but it looked good on the resume. After a year I started to take over teaching and it looked even better.

by catadmin

First, relax a little. Believe me when I know how you feel. My college degree has nothing to do with I.T. and I had to go the cert route to get my foot in the door.

When the contracting agency interviewed me, the first thing they asked me was *how* I got my certs. Since I'm a poor person, I had to buy cheap hardware at a computer show, put everything together on trial versions of the software and then learn it by myself. No bootcamp for me. Too expensive. Strangely enough, my recruiter liked that answer. It took me two & 1/2 years to get my MCSA & MCDBA (didn't go for the MCSE as it seemed rather worthless at the time).

And yet, I still couldn't get in the door. Of course, I was working in a customer service job and found out if I volunteered for all the grunt work, people would let me help out with the computer stuff in my spare time. I laid network cable, I took broken PCs and learned how to rebuild the OS, rebuild the hardware and how to troubleshoot problems with no one to help me but a couple of newsgroups, some Tech Republic newsletters and a heavy reliance on Google. I crawled up in ceilings, reached under desks, even broke my own PC once trying to upgrade it (which taught me more than I can possibly tell you). Developed, for myself, a couple of very simple Access DBs. Volunteered outside of work to help friends trouble shoot laptops, build business networks, etc. for free because it meant resume experience I could put under the heading of "Contract Work".

Finally managed to get an underpaid help desk support job for a software developer doing front end stuff for SQL & Access. The free Contractor work I had done helped. No one cared that I volunteered to do it, they just cared that I had actually done it. I even included several years of Admin/coding experience I had gotten from volunteering on a MUSH (multi-user simulated halucination - or text based RPG) on my Resume.

It may sound silly, but that is the way the game is played. If you can reasonably say that something gave you IT experience, it'll show in the way you interview. Of course, you have to properly present it on your resume, too. I never lie about the experience I have in I.T. during an interview. When they ask me, "Have you dealt with replication", I tell them right out, "I did it when I was studying for my cert in a stable test SOHO environment, but I haven't done it in a production environment."

It seems the interviewers like that kind of honesty.

Since last year, I have gone from Customer Service Rep to Access Specialist to full blown Database Adminstrator. I've literally doubled my pay since the CSR days. I was let go from the AS job due to budget reasons and spent a month trying to get jobs which were "too senior" for my experience level. Then, just when I'm ready to go back to service industry, someone wants a junior DBA whom they can teach to do the things they want.

All I can say is WHOO HOO! It seems doing things the hard way does pay off. And definately getting the certs helped get my foot in the door.

by xirkonax

What jdclyde is telling is the way to go. I moved from a very high paying job to Jax, FL without a job a started looking. I went through the yellow pages and faxed resumes to tech company with a fax and went to these companies and filled out apps with no luck. I then decided to get my business license and printed up 500 business cards with flyers. I took a job delivering phone books just so I could stuff my flyers in them before I delivered them. Worked Great. I then was approach by a few companies with offers I couldn't refuse so I went back to the work force, but I still maintain my business just in case. It takes some time but hang in there and don't give up.

by advancedgeek

Yea we got a little off track from what I was originally saying...but still more problems in the IT world. The major thing I was getting at was that probably more than half of the IT world is faking it.

by dafe2

I continue to use a MicroVax 3100 that I usually only shut down about once a year.

I'll be porting the Microvax to Windows 2003 in a virtual environment soon.

The UNIX boxes will remain as is.

Sounds like you know how to write the exam so why don't you write it....instead of simply opining here?

by beoweolf

The general consensus is Microsoft tests are too easy, anyone can pass. Wait a minute, revise that; Microsoft tests are not real world, they just look at the world through MS glasses, we need hands-on tests, open book...then we could see who has real expertise. No, that's not it...people don't need to be certified or go to college, on the job training is the best way, we just need to let them get a foot in the door.

I am confused? from the breadth of "solutions" presented, one would think the #1 OS for business, commerce, connectivity is the problem. If we could just get rid of Microsoft...Oh, then what would wanna-be's complain about then? It's not minorities, it's not out-sourcing, it's not test cheaters, it's not even about not getting opportunities. People will pay for your services only when they see a benefit. No one owes you a job, a foot in the door or reserved seating.

Believe it or not MS in all it's flawed glory is the trough we all feed from. (Yes, even the xx"uix crowd feeds at the MS trough...Years of Unix only growth of the internet was eclipsed within the first 2 years of MS entry into internetworking). Want a job? Go get one! Quite whining, the world is what it is, deal with or not...it will still go on with or without you.

Certifications are not different than any other document. You have a drivers license, so do most other drivers on the road, yet we still have accidents, we still have cheaters (even on drivers tests), we have people that complain because it is only given in English or complain because it is give in non-English. Too easy to get or too hard, how can that be? Hand-ons, written, good drivers bad drivers...just the same as MS certs. It's not the cert, it just human nature. There are and will be varying levels of skill, regardless of the test.

by jaqui

it's not the product itself, it's the tech behind the product.

most *x people have the in depth knowledge of networking protocols that most mc* people don't.
( manual config at konsole of nic's, routes etc )
microsoft's "wizard" based approach to everything means most people working with it don't get that depth of knowledge.

by jdclyde

then the questions aren't how to configure something but which wizard to you use for blah blah and where do you find it.

The other cute think M$ has done in the last few years is to incorporate sales propoganda into the cert. They are trying to make the techs the first line of sales to push their line.

by jaqui

m$ specific questions can always be answered by, run the wizard.

since m$ doesn't supply real tools to do anything with.

and MCS* stands for Microshaft Certified Sales *
not microshaft certified system *

by ciscogranny

.....usually when you take the time and energy to figure out how things "work" there is no need for faking.

by jdmercha

I just filled out a survey for Microsft's idea of creating a Sytems Architect certification. Basically I slammed the idea because the cert like all other MS certs are too easy to obtain.

Although I admit that a cert is better than nothing, a BS is better than a cert, and experience is better than both.

And yes, I work with many Phd's that can't tie their own shoes. Typically they spend so much time and effort trying to understand their one area, that they do not have the time or desire to learn anything else.

by jaqui

you can buy experience, it's called paying to hire someone with experience, not just a piece of paper that could be meaningless. ~g~

oh, you mean paying and getting experience for your resume.
well if you are stupid enough to pay an employer instead of getting paid, go for it. ~l~

by dafe2

Yeah........I realize he teaches NETWORKING.

I guess my translation would be:

( translation: I do know *X I know what I'm talking about you %$^$%&*%&* )

by jaqui

rub, to many id10ts think that unix is dead/legacy, and only care about microshaft certifies sales certificates

by dafe2

But these ones usually do :-)

I like the other faking disc further on though LOL

by pgm554

Certs are like the shine on the bumper of a car,it looks good, but you can't judge how well it will perform from the shine.

by dafe2

They crumble when you hit 'em hard ennough.

Do it during the interview.

by cuteelf

I resemble that remark :P

BTW I'm already looking for work, and I do have a biz liscence.
I'm griping that ppl want experience, and getting the foot in the door is difficult.

I want experience because I know in my heart that knowing all this gunk from books may not prepare me for the 1K user pool that are having loopback issues...
Certs look good to HR; hands on looks good to the CIO and Head Cheese.
Both look good to me, as cert shows I put a goal and achieved it, and exp. shows that I can kick A$$ on it.

anyone hiring :)?

cuteelf

by jdclyde

It is just a matter of looking good on paper, and if you ARE doing stuff tech related, that is experience.

It is just getting creative on ways to apply what you know.

Yes, the paper helps. I have gone back to school myself. That 2yr degree I got a decade ago just wasn't cutting it.

Don't give up.

Question, Are you really cute?

by moshchops

Just learned I have to pass this one before 31st March or my company gets 2% less discount for HP sales.
Cert. written by the guy who wrote the app. - this one is really in depth! No sleep 'til next Monday...

by teajay9001

In my experience and I've been in this business many many years, most companies that consider any applicant weather he's certified and degreed or what ever, perform a Technical interview/test to determine the depth of knowledge. In most cases you can weed out the pretenders in about 30 minutes. The certs are good we just need a better and consistant way to "certify the cert".
As far as the sites that help out with the test "SO WHAT". If propestive companies understand this and I beleive most of them do. They'll figure out a way to get the best experienced/certified folks as most companies already have.

by house

If you can't do a hands on test... sit the potential down with a pen and paper and a little pop quiz for him/her to write. Nothing too technical, just the basics in order to assess his/her background and common sense regarding technical issues.

by david_heath

when recruiting techs during my time (sentence?) as an IT manager, I used to toss in a real curve ball... went something like this....

"Imagine I'm holding a rubber ball at waist height and let it fall to the ground. It will bounce back, but not to its original height. Let's call the ratio of the two heights the coefficient of restitution. Without touching the ball, we see that it bounces proportionally lower & lower in agreement with the coefficient until eventually we can no longer see it bouncing.

Now, theory tells us that it must still be bouncing, we just can't see it any more.

Is it still bouncing, justify your answer."

The correct answer is 'no it's not bouncing, I can't see it bouncing, bugger the theory!'

I'm looking for the people who can figure out how to think for themselves, not those who try (desperately) to cling to the clues thrown to them as part of the question.

by tony hopkinson

people to test.
Certs & degrees get you interviews, not jobs.
I haven't got any of either but I often wonder how many opportunities I've missed out on because some dimwit in HR or an agency thinks you need a bit of paper before you can do the job.

by house

We can all argue that...

- certs do not mean a thing
- beware of the paper cert
- MCSE is garbage
- blah, blah, blah

When it comes down to it though, a lot of places have a step in the screening process that is directly related to certification levels.

by d_j_owen2002

I do not have the MCSE but instead did a course that required I provide evidence of my knowledge an abilities. Unfortunately the IT world does not give guys like me much of a chance as they do not greatly recognise my qualification.
My first job in the IT world when I was taken on I was informed that the previous week they had taken on a guy with an MCSE and he had barely been able to switch the PC on.
I have a colleague who has an MCSE and he relies on me to solve the more complex IT problems as he has no fault finding logic whatsoever.
I also know IT guys with the MCSE who put me to shame with their knowledge.On software tests such as Office 2000 knowledge with perspective employers I usually score around 97%.
Due to misfortune the 2 jobs I got in the IT industry ended with redundancy one due to the government. I no longer work in the IT world but still do it as a hobby in my spare time, though I could be described as being on the fringes.
Dave

by questor1

Companies increased use of Certs for job screening is a symptom of that company's management problems.

When companies "weed out" job candidates based in part on Certs, they are perpetuating a myth that more IT training is automatically better. The real key is to screen job candidates for what they did at previous jobs, how they did it, and what was the result.

The burden of IT training costs has dramatically shifted in the past 10 years from employers to employees. Current Certs are far more used as a job screening tool for Consultants and Temps where there seems to be a inherent client bias towards age discrimination of older workers.

For example, I have worked in IT for 15+ productive years, earned an BS IT degree, completed certifications for Novell and Microsoft and continue to have problems finding a job. I kept all of my Certs up to date with all of the current Novell and Microsoft Cert update classes at my own expense. I am hesitant to pay out big bucks of my own money every 3 years to get re-certified when my past Certs are arbitrarily declared obsolete by software monopoly companies. Job experience should be considered far more than having the "Cert of the week" when scrrening job candidates.

The job screening problem for me appears to be that 1.) companies have shifted IT work to business process outsourcing (BPO) causing reduce IT demand, 2.) I have been told that my 15+ years of skills and certifications are not "current" enough because I did not retake classes that I have already passed in prior Certs, and 3.) that contract clients are looking for a "younger" person, even though I would work at a "younger" contract rate.

The bottom line is that as IT has reduced in scale within the USA, descrimination based on Certs and job candidate age occur every minute of the day. Companies that have faulty management or hiring practices over-rely upon the use of Certs to screen out qualified job candidates and negatively impact the ability of a company to hire the best qualified job candidate.

by ciscogranny

My school has internship programs for IT majors. Some are paid, some are not. I have no idea now how easy it is to get into an internship there, but I'll find out soon enough. My unemployment runs out in May.:)

by mac0813

I have been in the It industrie and for about 3 years. I have found that all the Cert's in the wourld does not justfy anything it might sell you to the HR people bout as far as doing the job it does not mean crap.
I have worked with people that have there MCSE and they can't even add a computer to the AD (Active Directory)correctly. The only thing that a CERT tells me is that a person can take a test really well it does not mean that they can do the job when needed.

I think that we have gone cert crazy and we need to back to the basic's when it comes to hiring some one to have them prove them selves and if they can't do the job fire there REAR. Just my opinion

MAC

by tony hopkinson

I've no certs and never added a computer to AD, bet I could figure it out though. In about two minutes, and google how to do it in three or wait for a response from one of my fellow members. But that's the difference between being simply certified and being a professional. One can vaguely remember the answers they gave in an exam the other knows how to ask the right questions.

by tony hopkinson

Certifying and re-certifying, especially after you've made it almost mandatory is a definite money spinner. The fact that they don't do what it says on the tin has no bearing as long as they can keep selling the idea to business. Fortunately they are slightly less necessary in software development, support, networking and admin, they are almost a must. I muddle through keeping myself in work, haven't got the time, money or desire to jump on the ms training bandwagon, class one rip off as far as I'm concerned.

by house

You have to pretty lucky to be involved in the direct implementation of AD. I've gone through an MCSE targetted training course a while back, and have since touched down on AD but once. There is definitely some sort of marketing scheme going on here.

I don't regret the training though, because it filled in a lot of holes... but I've yet to write for my MCSE for 03 as it is not all that practical in my situation. I work directly and indirectly with Cisco products, smaller MS networks, and a bit of Linux.

by david_heath

hey, if you need to study AD, loom at eDirectory first. At least that way you'll see how a proper directory should be built! Then you simply need to learn the exceptions.

Wait, no, on second thoughts, it'll be quicker to learn AD than to learn how badly it deviates from a *real* directory.

~smile~

by flosofl

While an MCSE means nothing to me (anyone and I mean ANYONE can get one with little effort), there are certifications out there that actually mean something. Of the top of my head:

CCIE - insanely difficult to get and having means you really, really know your stuff. While an MCSE will mean little when hiring a sys admin, you bet a CCIE will get the enterprise network engineering job.

CISSP - again not the easiest to get and they vet your skills based not only on your test, but on your work experience (you send in a resume) and you have to get a manager or another CISSP to vouch for you. For any security position, a CISSP will have a huge leg up. You also need to earn points by taking classes/seminars in the security field to maintain the cert. Or go through the whole process (350 ques test, submit resume, get someone to vouch) every 3 years.

by mgeyre

The reason many people use cert?s as an entry to IT is because too many managers/directors want instantly experienced workers. They are not prepared to put in time or effort (or money) to train new people and prefer to poach from other companies. The people trying to get into IT are faced with a dilemma, they cannot get hands on experience so they pay a boot camp to provide them with certs and bluff the experience. They get caught but by then it is too late they are on the payroll.

The solution to this problem is simple STOP COMPLAINING AND START TRAINING.

by house

For some reason, the IT industry is an industry that demands 'instant' professionals. Corporations in general should be hiring based on professionalism and work ethic in general, and not necessarily based on a brilliant CV.

It would be ideal to hire junior admins based on the minimum, and then mold them to your satisfaction. The problem that we see here is the abuse trends that come out of it. If I were so inclined, I would work 6 months for a company and have them pay for thousands of dollars worth of training and certification... so long... see ya... this is where it falls apart.

On another note, my issues with the job market are related to bilingualism... I'd spoken French for about 12 years throughout my childhood, but haven't spoken a word of it since I was 16. My vocabulary sucks, and many positions here in Ontario demand that you speak French. I have no time these days to work my French, so tough cookies for me. None of my family nor any of my friends speak the language.

by hawkeye255

I've been in IT since 1988. In 1990, an acquaintance and I opened our own business to little fanfare and few prospects in a three-room office suite (that we couldn't really afford) in a not-very-fashionable commercial buidling on the sixth floor (no reliable elevator). Six months later after working night and day, we opened a huge storefront with five offices and hired our first employee (besides us). After six months of working my ass off while my partner mostly played with his own "bulletin board" and talking on the phone all day long with buddies around the country, I convinced him to buy me out. (Thank you, Lord, thank you thank you thank you!)
I then opened my own company after relocating across the country, in an office in my home. I officially started advertising in the local papers July '91. By July '93, I had to stop advertising, I had been working 18/7 for a year-and-half and it was killing me. Since then I advertise sparingly and my best years income was $120,000 with the average being a bit less than that. I have no employees and carry very little in inventory (a few routers, a couple hard drives, etc.)
My average workweek is 15 to 20 hours long and I usually earn $1000 to $2000 a week. The rest of the time I sail and fish and play with my room full of synths.
Word-of-mouth advertising has sent me 90% of my clients and I seldom do work for large companies since they are slow paying and demand a huge investment of non-paying time. I have learned a few tricks that take care of the slow payers, by the way.
When MS certs first come out and I noticed the serious money that was required, I declined, feeling that it was just another revenue producing stream for Microsoft akin to extortion. At a tech conference a few years ago, I took a practice exam and scored 98%, so I hold not even one MS certification and the result is: I don't feel I've lost a thing.
My clients pay me to train when they present me with problems I have not encountered before which happens a lot less all the time. The key to my success is tenacity. I don't let go of a problem until I solve it. I see young people start up all the time and disappear two or three months later. Mostly because when the problems are over their head, instead of seriously getting to work on it by whatever means available-that means research and study, they simply don't show up.
There are certifications that have real meaning, I don't think MS has one though--hell, I wouldn't trust Bill Gates to mow my lawn successfully without endless do-overs amidst negotiations with platoons of attorneys. ;-)
Want experience and think you have what it takes? Get to work. God knows there is plenty of it out there.

by hybrit

So many companies place value on vendor certifications and training, but less and less they are willing to pay to have one of "their" employees get certified on something they are already implementing!!!!

What a stupid game: I want only certified people but heaven forbrid that MY company should have to pay for it!

The typical all around attitude these days in America: I want it all for noth'in... (yes I am generalizing).

Sad really...

by david_heath

actually, when I was an IT manager, I would pay for any necessary training; but I'd never pay for certs. The certification was for the employee to offer his NEXT employer, so I figured he could pay for it himself. Having him do the training was useful to me, having the cert wasn't

by vtjo

I agree wholeheartedly - experience counts, but I found that I learned a lot while studying for exams. There are always systems that your particular environment may not utilize or things you don't do everyday and covering them even just academically does help broaden your scope.
As far as the Security + exam - watch out. The "practice" exams are very easy - way easier than the actual test. You really have to know your stuff for this one!

by advancedgeek

Well, I don't think it was the "practice" exam...I think it was the ACTUAL exam...that's the point of this whole discussion...it's ENTIRELY too easy to find the actual exam, and thats our problem (IT's problem). I spent about 20 mins googling for practice exams, and found the actual exam. I don't think this exam will be a problem for me, as I have been working on the Sys admin side for about 5 years now.

I am thinking about starting a REVOLUTION!!!! (get your pitchforks out here) I say we bring down all of the testkings, and actual exam makers out there! That'll put the respect back into the certifications.

*I take the security+ on good friday (:)) so...I'll let you know how difficult, and what my score was then (not to bragg, but just to help out the other pro's)

by mill3502

The first thing that comes to mind is that yes certification matters when it comes to HR people reading your resume. But certification without experience is a waste of your time and money. I teach both Microsoft and Security + and the one thing I tell my students is to either get there degree or get certified. And second get experience. I make it mandatory that all students install and configure a server at home and then assign projects for them to use that server. Experience and knowledge will get you the job, certifications only get you past the door.

by vjcskid

I wish that the discussion of certs vs. higher ed would go away. Most college degrees are in comp. sci. and don't have you 'crack open the case'. There are very few university's that offer day to day hands on stuff.
I am self taught and have vendor certs from Microsoft, Novell and CompTIA. I also have a bachelor's degree and I'm hoping to start work on my MBA (tech emphasis) next year. Point is - any action on a person's part to learn is good. Doesn't matter if its in a university setting or in certification classes/self study. You will find 'cheaters' in both arenas.

by the admiral

This is why companies are hiring by experience with a minimal number of certifications. In some cases, it is cheaper for the company to hire a person with alot of experience and send them through the process than hiring a paper tech with only random experience.

by sysengineer

Let me just tell you how glad and relieved I am not spending every morning, night and weekend studying for the next "big" certification. It got old very quick...College is the way to go, no matter what the work force is doing a college degree will always prevail. Why waste time studying for a cert for a certain technology when, in fact, that technology may be obselete in a few years. A degree lasts a lifetime.......

by gothicscott

Well said cipher010!!!!

This certification thing is a scam from the get go.
I too, wasted hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars on classes, materials and exams to gain my certifications. What did I end up with?

1.Certifications that everyone and his brother have.

2.Limited shelf life. Everytime one turns around
there's more bloatware coming from Redmond that requires re-certification.

3.Shelves of outdated and obsolete books that nobody wants including my local library.

4. A crappy paying job ( I have 15 years of experience), that pays 1/3 of what I used to get before the IT implosion in 2000.

Get certified in Microsoft Scamware again? No Thanks. If you're serious and want something that's tangible, worth the effort and lasts a lot longer than the bogus industry certifications, get a college degree,preferably not in IT!

_Scott

by xirkonax

Time constraints can lead to the supposed cheating. I wouldn't necessarily call this cheating, there are some people that I know that just don't have the time to study properly and, true, will take the easy way out by grabbing the quick test version study guide. The key here is that they already have the knowledge and experience needed for the certification. Some just aren't good test takers and on the other hand Microsoft's tests are ridiculous with their questions and their answer choices unlike the Cisco tests I have taken that are straight forward no trick or twists you either know it or you don't, plus Cisco puts pratical hands on configuration question on the tests. I think that if the hands on approach were implemented on Microsoft test they would be a better showing of someone true experience and knowledge level, earning the Cert.

by hbueno

Whether the person passed the test by cheating or studying, I would argue that certifications provide no guarantee or measure of a person's ability. I've met many people with "CERT's" who couldn't punch their way out of a paper bag. For this reason, I refuse to waste my time or money pursuing any IT industry certifications. My work and ability stand on their own.

by dpskiman

I've run my own networking business for four years, and not one client has asked to see certifications. Hmm? My work stands on its own. The begging question is, who's making the money here? I am, not the testing services!

by xirkonax

Yes it is still around and my company feels they need to replace our 14 UN* servers, that replaced our mainframe, with Lin*. I don't have a problem with administering either but I think that is the wrong direction.

by nbpqsecofr

Last year, I obtained my first cert, IBM eServer Certified Specialist, iSeries System Adminsistration V5R2. I can tell you that IBM Certifications are not something you can just cram for. You need years of administrative experience on an iSeries to pass the particular exam which I took.

If people want certifications to be taken seriously, then there needs to be a major shift in the focus of a certification. The exams need to be designed that you need the experience in order to pass, not just goto a Boot Camp for a week, take the exam and pass. That just devaules the entire certification process.

by angry_white_male

When your average IT job job posting generates hundreds of replies - requiring certifications makes it easier for the HR people to sort out resumes into two piles... MSCE pile and the garbage can.

All a certification proves is that a.) you can pass a test; b.) you're dumb enough to shell out big bucks to keep feeding the MS monster; and c.) that unless you have the experience to back up the certification that you will fail miserably.