Are certifications destroying the world?

I don't know anything at all about any particular testing methodology. All I know is that 20 years ago my boss threw me into a room with a dual floppy, 64K IBM PC and said,"there's the books, don't ask me." That was the US Navy way in 1985.

I've never persued certs either. I own a small consulting firm in Alabama and find this discussion quite interesting. I'll be 45 years old this year and desire to take my business to another level (I'm looking at the Joshua Fineberg thing and sitting on a decision). But none of my small business clients have ever asked for any certifications/degrees. Perhaps they will at the next level.

But there is one thing that I so strongly believe that must be disproven for me to change. That is that even if I do study like crazy and throw a bunch of bucks at these certs, I won't be any smarter than if I had to think on my feet during each new network/corporate/security scenario. To me, it's not the facts that I carry between my ears that makes me a worthy engineer, it's the ability to learn and apply new ones, safely, whenever the opportunity arises. I cannot see how money and paperwork will ever be even an enhancement to that(other than by uninformed perception), much less a reliable substitute.

a Degree in what? everything is volatile. I don't understand your reasoning. are you saying you get a degree and you are good for life? silly

My experience with MCSE 2003 exams was mixed.

The problem with these exams is: If you read two books, understand the contents, and practice all labs on a home computer, I believe no one will get more than 50% of- most of you will fail if you gained real knowledge and practice of "how to do".

The reason is, in exam, you would spend 3 minutes on the average to read a question. This gives you only about 10 seconds to come up with a right answer! In reality, the Microsoft staff who approves such questions must be getting plenty of time to think through to come up with an answer.

I found many questions misleading to start with, few inaccurat in format, few expecting to answer from Microsoft Knowledge-base.

What to do to pass MCSE exams, then? Well, the best way would be to read & understand the material in the book, practice labs, and then, practice Questions & answers available from any source, including the one you found relaiable!

The rest you will have to learn on the job! Like any vocation!

Where are you guys finding these MCSE's...how many of them are just studying testkings, and passing the tests. We, as the community, should come up with some standardization. Everyone needs to retest, and there should be no way to cheat. (good luck w/that, but i'd love to help)

I began my cert path back in the NT 4 days, and actually have Certification on NT 5 Beta(How many ya'll got that one...) I still have the install for this and all, pretty cool back then. I quickly learned that I was much too busy to fiddle around with the paper trail, and just moved my career by actually doing something, everywhere. Everything from building multi-national WANS in the days of adtran routers, to building functional inventory applications and testing applications, to now have a CIO position for 3 years, doing every detail of information projects.

I've seen the paper trails, and one of the companies I worked with while certifying actually just pushed the "Practice" exams so much that it was basically the test itself. Just in 3 different tests for each section, but it was the test questions. Didn't like it so I didn't finish it then, won't now either. I do not know any intructor that can teach me an OS faster than me, and know no piece of paper that can prove my talent quicker than I.

That's just my take on it. You geeks that are like me that just know how software works, and can learn any software in a day, that's how we grew up. We got our 8086'The pretenders were always the ones asking me to debug their Pascal code....

There are a lot of people that are self-taught and just picked things up as they went along.

While the things you learn, you learn well there are a lot of areas that you will miss entirely with this approach.

Certs after working in the field helps round the individual and build that almighty resume and maybe get you a raise.

You definitly can't do warrany work without that cert.

So anyone that says certs have no value need to buy themselves a clue. Certs do not equal good tech but it can equal money.

I agree - I work for the government in I.T. and am not certified. However, I have been doing the job for 18 years. Experience is volumes more important than certification. Its the difference between book learning and on the job experience. I also have my own computer services business and most of my customers could care less if I carry any certifications. All they care about is that I understand their requirements and can implement the best solutions to meet their needs. An MCSE or any other certification does not guarantee that.

Just a quick comment on this thread. I would agree that exam prep material is very easy to find, but I wouldn't say it is, "SO EASY", to pass any exam. I've been enrolled in A+, Net-Server+, and MCSA course for almost two years now, and I've one month left to finish my MCSA Certification. For all my exams I've had to read, read, read, read, dozens of books pertaining to each Certification. Then actually implementing what I learned in a physical environment.

Hence the, "Proof in the Pudding".

I look at this way, sure you can find the prep exams for any exam whether it be a "Trade of any sort", but when it comes to proving your skills with in the work force there is no hidding your lack of actual hands on experience. So if you think by passing any exam by just studying the questions in a practice exam, to pass the actual exam will get you a job you can keep, " You've got another thing comming". There is no, "Faking", your ability and competency while preforming your job, no matter what it is. If you manage to acquire a job with your, "So easy Certifications", the buck will stop when it comes time to perform."You can guarantee that".

This is just my two cents ;-)

I remember those days in the Navy too (DSC(SW) Ret.) currently a Network Analyst and I'm just about to accept a new job (E911 Communications Supervisor) based on my proven track record.

Unfortunately Certs and Degrees are used to weed prospects out or get them jobs, but the ability to think/act when the heat is on is what really matters. In every interview/job since retiring (5 1/2 yrs ago) the lack of a cert or degree has never been an issue.

I believe proven experience is better suited to getting the job done, than any cert or degree without experience.

Getting a job that is unrelated just so you can make contacts is something that just doesn't come to many people it seems.

Getting the phone book delivery is greatness in action.

NOTE: I don't even worry about finding a "tech" company. ALL companies these days have computers and need to communicate.

I work for a company that makes cement pipes and bricks. "Ma, when I grow up I want to work for a sewer pipe company...". We have five locations and don't forget about a mobile sales force.

Not everyone will work for IBM or Micro$oft.

On the side I am now getting my car rebuilt at a service center in exchange for updating their network. All I pay for is parts at their COST and they pay for their parts at my COST. Brakes, suspension, front end parts, coolant flush and many others. Car has high mileage because of my travels and stuff is just wearing out, ya know? 99 concorde with 170K on it, but the thing is LOADED so I don't want to get rid if it.

Mostly all I have done was clean up adware so far, hahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaa! I LOVE adware!

You are correct, HR people look for the Certifications, mostly due to the fact that quite a few HR types haven't a clue as to what constitutes an "IT" person. The certs are a simple way to be able to tell their boss that candidate X has this cert and that cert and is qualified. I wonder if the IT manager making the job description dummies down the job requirements so the HR people can figure it out. Would you expect an HR person to be able to determine if a candidate can properly prepare an NT 4 domain for upgrade to 2003? Of course not. The HR person is asked instead to look for an MCSE, or network + or whatever, because anyone w/ a 4th grade education can see and understand that on a resume.

I got done, if she isn't there are batteries in the top drawer.

The food found to remove 90% of all sex drive from women? Wedding cake.

Sorry, if I seem bitter lately it is because the wife is moving out. Seems she found her "soul mate", and I'm not it.

peace.

After reading several of the responses I will post mine. I believe that Certs are both good and bad. I have a MIS Degree graduated in 98 and in 99 it was hard to find a JOB. I had to work contracts to get my foot in the door. Even at that time the MCSE was considered to be king. I interviewed for a job against someone that I knew from another company we both worked at, he was in Marketing at our previous company but went to a boot camp and got a cert. He than lied about his experience and beat me out of the job. 2 weeks later he was released. I believe that learning is important and there must be a way to show you are willing to continue your education. I did not pursue any certifications for the first few years because I hated them. Now I have 5 of them, eventhough my job does not require them. Many times the study guides have good knowledge in them. I recommend reading 3 different books on each subject. Try relating what you have learned to your job and you will do well. I will say that even after several years in IT and prior Military Experience, I realise that I will never know everything about IT.

Even the one's that don't pay or pay little will get you back in the door.

Best of luck getting in.

We all need to bump heads at one point or another

Man,
I hate it, love it, don't really care when someone is right, and Beoweolf is right!! The real world is out there and we need to get used to it. I'm middle-aged and somewhat of a newbie and I've busted my hump to stay in IT for the last 5 years. It's better by a long shot than my previous field of manufacturing management (another famously out-sourced career.)

I've worked to start down the cert path and when I get there I'll crow like a rooster about it.

It's interesting to note how many typos and grammatical errors there are in some of the posts of the anti-cert, anti-education crowd. The real world is looking for the whole package folks, or at least a mostly-full partial package. If it's education, experience or certification that helps us trouble-shoot, document and present ourselves in the best light, then who can blame employers for looking for the best of everything??

They now sell RedBull by the case.

Good luck with the test. nothing like a deadline to help you relaxe and study.....

I agree with your point about the expense of training, one way to keep people is using the carrot and stick method. The carrot is a reward for gaining certs with promotion/pay rise. The stick is, they agree to stay with the company for a specified period of time if they break the deal they are required to repay part of the course fee.

If a person is paid what they are worth then they less likely to look elsewhere.

That's when the weight of the world falls on your shoulders!

I've interviewed MCSE's who had no clue about even creating user accounts. It floored me, but I wasn't too surprised.

One thing certs are good for is marketing. If you work for/run a VAR, it looks alot better to say "we've got 4 MCSE's w/ 23 years of combined experience" than saying "we've got some guys that know some stuff".

However...I'm just now doing the MCSE after working w/ the technology for the last 6 years professionally. I got the experience first, then the certs...I feel that's the best way to do it.

If the title caught your attention, then you've been around these types of discussions long enough to enjoy the train wreck that usually ensues. On one hand you've got your hardcore people who say that any passing of any test without doing all the labs and having the experience is cheating. On the other you have the people who state that the questions on the tests are geared to make the average person fail and have to retake the tests over and over.

The long and the short of it is that anyone without 5 years experience in the field should not be attempting premium-level certifications. These are the MCSE and MCSD for Microsoft and other engineer level certs for other companies. If you're not doing engineering, don't get the cert. Using the "I need a job so I'll get a cert" argument is putting the cart before the horse. People do it, and then whine when they can't get a job. (I wonder why)

Now all of that being said, I carry the MCSE2k and 2k3. I'm a manager whose primary responsibility is a helpdesk. I don't do engineering much. I do however; need to interface with engineers and understand the concepts those engineers pass down to my charges. It was an absolute requirement that I be versed in Microsoft technologies and it's getting to the point where Cisco and Linux are things on my radar screen. A valid use of certification is to build familiarity with core concepts and prove that knowledge. In many cases the study process (involving certpreps) is a valid way to build that familiarity.

So it really depends on what you're doing. The path I like to see as a hiring manager is as follows:

1. Technical degree: It could be an associates, a bachelors or even a technical school. I need to see a core understanding of technology. Some real school is very important. I won't hire someone without some degree of real classroom learning. High school doesn't cut it and if you don't have some advanced education and have certs only, you're spending your money foolishly.

2. Certifications: If I see a college degree, I like to see in this order an A+, N+, MCP, MCSA, MCSE and then Cisco. If I see a technical school education I can forego the A+ as much of the curriculum in those schools focuses on break/fix. People forget that a BS in CS or IT focuses mostly on theory, math and programming, not network engineering or component level repair.

3. Personality and Thinking skills: Another manager already brought this up in a post above. You need to hire people that think, not just react. To some extent critical thinking is part of a college education (should be much earlier but that's an argument for another post). Personality-wise I like to see people that present well and that I feel can integrate into our company's culture.

Ultimately, after looking at the above, the personality component should be the only dice roll I'm taking when someone walks in to speak with me. Perhaps I've been very fortunate, but people with all of the above reqs very rarely are idiots or "management material" as some people referred above (rather rudely).

I Don't think anyone's sweating spell check, cowboy

To say that you have XX number years of experience and to follow that up with whining about your current situation states that you either 1) haven't made the best of your experience 2) haven't had a good work record 3) don't truly understand IT and it's relation to business enablement 4) are just plain pathetic...

At what point did anyone state that a certification in any said technology would guarantee a bountiful career, not job, with growth and longevity? And where in the hell did a couple of test cert get paired with a college degree? That's a waste of time to even broach that subject. I have a dozen certs and never did I question my degree (BS Computer Science). Nor have I ever seen in any vendor's objectives that its cert can be used as a replacement for more formal education.

They are what they are. They are a method to guide an individual in the mastery of a particular technology with the intent of demonstrative skillsets and capable of supporting and/or designing computer devices, software, networks and systems. That's it!! Not get this three week study guide and ditch your degree!!! Never once...

Stay the course... These things are cyclical. Not long ago, municipal employees thought they were indespensible now due to city/county shortfalls they are up on the chopping blocks.

My point is simple, despite the above disseration, a degree is tantamount. Certifications should only be used to augment degrees and work experience. Build a career portfolio not a next hot thing.

The sad thing is that people are still being suckered in by Microsoft and the likes, into paying outrageous dollars for a piece of useless paper. The whole concept of paying a company to learn their software is beyond comprehension.

Met up with a few people claiming to hold this Cert and that Cert- in Ten years i have yet to take a test- if you are a hired gun then its needed. If your a W2 - then whats in the grape will take you the distance- CISSP exams very hard- DDOS costing your company 5 mill for hour they cant make a little pill- Much Harder, that only comes from having your face in the mud.
study hard - dont forget those Student Loans !!

Heck, I still play Rogue :)

I have my RHCT. It is the only cert I have. The reason: it has a real exam. There was no written component, it was all practical. The exam is in two parts: trouble shooting and installing according to specs given. BTW, trouble shooting was a must pass. If you failed the morning you did not get to come back for the afternoon.

Since the true point of all this is 'The Science Of Empty Infomration' i.e.;moving Empty Information from 1 place to another. The self importance of IT people who ask Q's?like this is a good indicator of the problem with IT. It is usually the only dept. in any corp. that does not know it is usually on WELFARE! IT is usually the only dept. that has absolutely no productive capacity. Lots of self important pencil necks jibbering about meaningless technology with no sign of life. They think they are doing something when they would be better served lessining the drag they already put on Society and Business and showing some HUMILITY and real human values. I am a Network Engineer and have been a technician for over 25 years. I sat in a MS Presentation at the Edwards Theater in a room filled with IT Professionals; God Help Us! Please! Or Anyone Who Is Out There!

Not when I was job hunting. After I was "out sourced" on my last job I re-entered the job market with 12 years experience in IT, 10 of it as the head of the dept. I have no certs only tons of experience. Most places would not even give me a second look because I didn't have those little pieces of paper on my wall. I think the battle scars on my body should carry more weight.

I started in the IT Profession when certification was not even in the dictionary, since then I have seen my share of IT Profi's with Cerf's that could not unscrew and remount a harddrive without problems. As a manager I use the Rule that it is SHOW and TELL time, because I expect that there are so many sheep herders that can't tell the difference between a good pair of sheep shears and or scissors and you are only called a Cheat when you are caught in the act of pulling to much wool. It is increasingly impossible to Police the Profession but in my little part of it if you can show me that you are not to afraid to grab the BOOK and know your Indexing skills you have my TRUST.

I have to agree in part I have study my but of to really learn and there are people in my classes who don't study and don't learn it but they pass any way get certified and are off looking to run someones network. It makes one wonder if the certification really means anything at all

Security seems to be the "buzz word" that MCSE was a few years ago. The big problem is that there are too many certs out there, and many are just too easy to pass without having any practical experience.

Some certs, such as GIAC, actually require a written submission after the testing has been completed. This is a good way of proving knowledge. Others, such as CISSP, require proof of a certain amount of experience behind the wheel, so to speak.

The other problem is that some employers just don't understand certs. I hold the GSEC from GIAC (and plan on doing more certs through them later) and also hold my CISSP. In a recent informal job interview, I was told "Well, yes, but we want a Security+ certification".

1. I don't know what cert(s) you have, but if you don't feel that they differentiate you, get others.

2. Limited shelf life? I have 2 certs, but none from Redmond. Nonetheless, you know going in that they don't last forever. If you want to cling to your Novell 2.x or Windows NT 3 cert, feel free. Generally, re-certifying when something changes is a very good thing. My Cisco and Novell certs require recertification periodically- Cisco whether a new product comes out or not.

3. Old Books? I don't have a good idea for that.

4. Crappy job? Get another one. Or not, your choice. As the subject line indicates, certifications won't get and keep jobs for you.

I am not Microsoft certified, but I am Comptia certified in A+ and Network+, soon to be in Server+.

As a home schooling study person I have to constantly find books and make my own notes and study the ins and outs of the book.

What I hate is when I have to go for exams on the internet (free ones), alot of these companies offer training and exams that resemble the exams very closely (transcender for example).

Even though I don't go to school and learn this material, I have to really work hard to learn this material (sometimes I feel it is even harder), and companies don't give me credit out there.

They want people with schooling and certification (some of these people just buy the exams wherever they can and study them to pass the exam. They don't really know their stuff). Those are the people I hate because they know in their hearts that they don't really know much and they get hired, whereas the people who know their stuff and don't go to school and have equivalent certification have a hard time getting hired.

A sad story if you know what I mean!

Certifications are just one small part of the picture when hiring IT people. Experience is what builds real knowledge. But I want more than just knowledge. I want somebody who isn't too lazy to get out there and get a decent certification. When I hire for IT positions I get a ton of applicants. It makes it a lot easier to weed out 90% of them by dumping the ones who didn't bother to get a relivant certification right along with the ones who don't have the experience. If they are good, the certification is usually pretty easy to get. If they cheated, I will find out in the interview. Crying about it isn't going to change anything. That is just the way it works.

I think it's the exact opposite, I have two certs, A+ and network+ I had a very hard time finding a job because I really had no experience in the field other then jobs for friends and family.

The fact is, if you're not a cheater and you actually study for the MCSE and get certified, you have more knowledge than someone who has working experience. However, that vast volume of knowledge can't help you think faster or better or troubleshoot a problem faster. Experience lets you know what, out of that vast volume of knowledge, you need to use. So if you only have experience, you've got gaps in knowledge, believe me I know. I have tons of experience but no certs and still occassionally run into problems to which an MCSE would probably know the answer. One or the other gives you a handicap. If you have both, you are the one that get's the job done quicker and better than those with only one or the other. I have a lot of networking experience. I have a friend who has an MCSE with a small amount of networking experience. My sister's wireless network wasn't working. She had an 11b network and the adapters just wouldn't connect. My MCSE friend spent 2 days trying to figure out how to make it work and eventually gave up. I immediately suspected that one of my sister's neighbors had an 11b network that was interfering and went and got them an 11G network setup and had them up and running in 30 minutes. However, I had to setup a 2003 forest with multiple active directory domains at work and I spent days trying to figure out why I couldn't "see the forest through the trees". My other MCSE friend came in and had it up in 30 minutes.

The point is: To truly be the best at your job, you should have both certifications and experience.

I haven't been certified since 1996 - I am a partner in a Technology firm and have a PMP certification now and planning for an ITIL cert. I have been configuring and setting up Microsoft Krap for 10 years now. Consequently, when my customers ask me if I have any MS certification my response is No but I can get certified and pass the cost of certs on to them. The study time and costs associated to certs - in my case loss income. Seems the bigger IT firms are obssessed with certifications and woo their prospects with paper instead of hard performance that only comes with experience. My bottom line is affected by the decision of potential clients; experience versus certification that is the question.

Two friends (a couple) put down $8000 for a six months course in Houston in 1997 for MCSE that promised garanteed cert pass. The two did not have any experience in networking or programming. Both passed the MCSE cert exams after six months. Why do they garantee? Because they know you won't fail after practising those almost real exam questions.

I know this might sound wierd, but if someone just started grilling me with questions, I'd probably fail most of the time. But if you gave me a computer or network with a problem, I could fix it quickly. Some people, like myself aren't great at describing their solutions; it's more intuitive than logical. At least that's my justification :)

An HR person is not qualified to either interview or hire an IT guy. Only IT guys know whether or not another IT guy can handle the job. But all to often, big brains come with even bigger egos. Resultantly, IT guys interviewing other IT guys may simply get into a "my brain's bigger than yours scenario" during an interview to establish qualifications.

Past the point of establishing a persons ability to learn and apply new concepts, a few basic "lookup the answer or know when to humbly ask for help" type interview scenarios are probably best at finding the next fit into an IT department.

So flip it upside down. Let the homegrown IT guys establish the foundational knowledge requirements, not the certs. But after a short written exam to establish "is this person knowledgeable enough to remain teachable," turn them over to HR to find out whether they have the personality to lay down their egos and work well with others.

Noone needs another geek with control issues. I think certifications are unnecessary measuring sticks. They simply make up for a lack of humilty and willingness to grow corporately by means of first acknowledging that there is always someone who knows more than you. Whether you are an IT or an HR, first look to your own improvement, then help others to achieve theirs. Clashing egos and uninformed decisions are the problem, certifications are just the symptoms.

[Consider my context to be that of IT in support of an organization whose business is not focused on providing services through the Internet.]

The user, the customer, is a revenue generator or a person in support of a revenue generator. IT is not a revenue generator. As such, IT is a cost factor. There is room for some humility there.

However, on the other hand, there is also a responsibility for workability. There is a level of locking down systems that maximises the productivity of the organization as a whole.

Sometimes, keeping a system from getting screwed up is the best way to make sure the "dumb user" is able to get their job done, rather than spend hours or days with non-functioning equipment because of something they did that was superfluous to their job function and preventable.

The key is finding the balance between control and culture that creates that workability.

Actually, here in BC I have found the opposite. Certs and degrees don't work, people do. The only thing that matters in the end is the ability to do the job. I have beat out people with masters degrees in computer science several times in my career by virtue of my experience and track record. This is a govt town, I was recently at the technet winter tour here and met many grey beards I started out on the bench with who are all in senior position in govt now. None of them has a degree to my knowledge, but they all have very long and progressive resumes in the industry.

I had a "friend" with whom I had had lunch together in the same cafeteria since 1998. Last year (end of 04) he showed me the piece of paper that he got after he passed the MCSA SQL Server exam. I asked him to write a simple SQL statement to retrieve data from two tables (dept and emp) where dept_id = 5. He did not have a clue what to write, so he was pissed off. I apologized to him and he never wanted to acknowledge my apology (he prays before he eats each and every his lunch!). We never see each other any more. But I agree that experience plus certs are the best for us.

The certification is only as good as the test that designates that certification. In the old days when test were multiple choice for written defination questions, it was and still is easy for people to memorize facts without understanding or being able to apply concepts. In some of the newer tests, they are scenerio based and have virtual hands on questions.
Cisco, Novell & RedHat have great scenerio tests and to answer a question, you must not only know the facts, but understand how to apply them. There may be others out there as well.

If the cert industry would have started this way, certs would be great! If you passed or renewed a cert under a scenerio based test that tests your hands on skills an application of knowledge and facts, then I would say that specific cert is valuable. Again, Cisco is a great example. But for all certs? Until they are all as described.... well you come up with your own conclusion.

The certification is only as good as the test that designates that certification. In the old days when test were multiple choice for written defination questions, it was and still is easy for people to memorize facts without understanding or being able to apply concepts. In some of the newer tests, they are scenerio based and have virtual hands on questions.
Cisco, Novell & RedHat have great scenerio tests and to answer a question, you must not only know the facts, but understand how to apply them. There may be others out there as well.

If the cert industry would have started this way, certs would be great! If you passed or renewed a cert under a scenerio based test that tests your hands on skills an application of knowledge and facts, then I would say that specific cert is valuable. Again, Cisco is a great example. But for all certs? Until they are all as described.... well you come up with your own conclusion.

I'm with geekygirl, I got this FTJ based on my experience. I quit the certs route at MCP over 10 yrs ago, after reading about the 9-year-old MCSE....

True, but walking around with a masters degree, a bachelors degree and an associates degree (and experience) may not get you in the door to talk if you don't have the particular cert required to get past the HR dept. or the accounting manager (or HR manager) who happens to be in ultimate control of the IT Department. Sometimes IT is the step-child department that is not only seen as a necessary evil, but really has no good home in the organization. (By the way, the recruiter told him that the candidate should have an MSC-whatever..)

I've been doing the IT thing for over 20 years.... and would like to move into higher in management. However, many higher ups in my industry feel they want an IT director to have the certs. Even though the IT director in most cases should not be the 'Hands-on' person.
They are looking for a mechanic to be the boss even if, as in my case a year ago, the boss has not even been in this industry or had alot of the practical leadership experience.

So, I'm working the certs. MS $ machine or not... I need them to advance.

We hired a person that just happen to has an MCSE in a worker role. He did not even know how to set up a printer for the network! Great! Just a book/paper cert.. nothing more.

I started off the same way 6 years ago. I had just enough knowledge to be dangerous, so I spent 5K and got my MCSE, figuring it would be a good jumping-off point. I think what helped was that I never claimed to any potential employer that my Cert made me a god - I applied for entry-level jobs and explained that I thought my Cert showed that I was capable of understanding the concepts - all I needed was a chance to show that I could apply them to real life as well.

After all, isn't that what education is supposed to be all about?

I have a multitude of older certs (useless) to augment my college (useless) and 2 decades of experience (all valuable in my mind but apparently useless). I have not worked full time in 3 years but guess who they come running to when their cert-stuffed whiz kid screwed up again.
Getting a job still boils down to two things. Either you call Uncle Leo or you put on the good old-fashioned used car salesman approach. Isn't it interesting that our president is the first of his family to get a degree and that the most powerful guy in the computer industry is a dropout.
Seriously, certs are just another money making scheme just like the mass resume mailing service. You need that face-to-face contact and wait for the opportunity to show your stuff.

They can teach you the "knowledge" but the "application" of that knowledge comes from experience at attitude.

If you can understand why something is you don't need to memorize what needs to be done. Problem with memorizing is if you forget one link in the chain the whole thing falls apart. Understanding why something is, a reasonably intelligence person with the right attitude can figure out what needs to be done.

When I started in 1980 it was college degree's or real world experience that counted.
Now too many empty headed HR dept people routinely skip over valuable people lacking certs. For example, I used to fix pc circuit boards with my oscilloscope and soldering iron, but this isn't considered valuble knowledge or experience compared to having an A+ certification. When I look over this beginner oriented cert, I see that the test developer is only interested in someone memorizing test questions, questions I might add that are mostly totally obsolete and irrelevent. Am I pissed, damm right, cause this kind of behavior prevented me from getting interviews. Now that I am back on top with a good gig as a large helpdesk manager, I will do my best to hire people w/o certs and with great experience. Also, people who can answer my well thought out relevent questions!!!

...that you can still make it on your own merits. I've just earned an ATA in CIS but can't say I remember every thing I was taught. I do know where to look though to get the answers. I've also studied three test prep texts for A+ but I'm not sure if it's worth spending the $$? I just got hired as a Geek for Best Buy( part time) and just need to get the experience for my resume. I've learned more on my own just by curiosity and solving problems for friends.

I was in the CCNA program at the technical college I was enrolled at. It was a one year/ 1 class every 8 weeks. The first person to take the CCNA exam took it in the middle of semester 3. And he passed. And if I'm not mistaken, he wasn't a networking person. He had an IT job, but not in networking, if I'm not mistaken.

Many of the people in the program with me were people who basically wanted job advancement, but were in the IT field or had limited IT experience. There were very few people who actually took the CCNA exam and past. For me, I only got in the program because I needed "waste time" until I graduated with my degree. But the one thing that separated me (and others like me in the program) from that we had the experience working with networking equipment or had classes dealing with networking.

Good on you!... I think some of the IT pros get too arrogant, but you have demonstratede the true key to learning, and that is to remain teachable.

I talked to few of my classmates who were in the CCNA program with me at my college and many of them could not find networking or Cisco-related jobs.

The cert shows to an employer that you have taken that extra step and will set you apart from co-workers who have the same knowledge, experience, and degrees as you.

I guess it's good I never got caught up in the hype of certs. At the school I got my Associate's from. The CCNA was the new thing and everyone was trying to get into the program. I was lucky to be able to be in the second class of graduates of the program. I only got into the program because "everyone else did". Networking wasn't even my thing, even though I liked the knowledge.

I took the CCNA twice and almost past it by like 2-3 pts each time. To me, I was glad with getting the certificate from my college, rather than the actual Cisco Systems official cert. But, I was gaining knowledge in networking as a workstudy at the college. In my area, there isn't a big need for networking specialists, muchless any type of certification specialist of any kind.

You nailed it. A servants attitude will promote you better than any thing else.

is a truly scary thing. I've had alphabet soup on my title for years now and I find it really doesn't matter to some hiring managers.

I once participated in a hostile job interview where the interviewer (someone who claimed to be the closest thing the company had to a network engineer), spent the better part of an hour trying to prove to me that understanding the source of a MAC address on a packet header was more important than understanding routing theory, routing protocols, router configuration, and troubleshooting techniques.

I didn't get that job but it sure was funny watching him get all flustered when I explained that although understanding the contents of packet headers was certainly useful information it really wasn't nearly asimportant as insuring that data was actually making its way from point A to point B.

What this proved to me was that a little education can be a dangerous thing in the hands of an unqualified person.

After reading the many ?'s/answers about "certs", I am wondering how well a BA in IT stands up in this whole mess. I received my BA in Information Technology/Web Programming, but now I want to go backwards and do the technical side of this learning channel. I used to be an NT Administer 4 years ago, but gave that job up to go back to university to obtain my BA in IT. Since migrating to Win2000, I don't have a clue on how Windows 2000 Server works. I would like to become/add an A+ Network cert. to my BA. Am I crazy? I think so, but it might add leverage to going back into Administering a Network. I have a job in Web Programming, but haven't been able to practice the IT aspect of my degree. Presently, at my company, they have hired a "self taught" administrator, but servers are always breaking down and he doesn't know why. My opinion, is breakdown the old server and rebuilt it. Anyways.I do feel for you "cert" guys, as I do think "certs" are valuable. Its just getting the right people to recognize its worth, and give you the pay you're worth. Like my saying goes, you have to give that individual a chance to prove he/she has that knowledge/expertise, but until you get it..you will always feel like you and your cert aren't worth a dime. This shows you that top management has no clue about how technology really works!!!! Sorry so long winded.

As long as there are managers who know nothing about the jobs they hire for you will need Certifications regardless of there value to the person that holds them.

Saint

I don't know anyone in the biz who actually puts any weight on whether a candidate has certs (of any kind) or not. Why? Because thousands of talentless hacks get certs every month, and think that they are somehow magically morphed into IT gods... Certs don't do anything to assess whether or not someone actually possesses the requisite skills to do their damned job. All they are is resume fluff.

I wish we did have a quality certification program, but any moron can bone up on the internet and get his MCSE or CCNA... and most of the other cert track can be aced on intuition alone.

is that SECRET is fairly easy to get but TS takes a long time and is a LOT of work. Up until 5 years ago I had a clearance. Unfortunately when I left that job they immediately expired the clearance. I'd have loved to have kept it but the only way they'd have let me keep the clearance was to stay in a dead end job that paid a fraction of what the job position should have paid. Either that or luck out and find a better job in the Government sector (and there weren't very many in my field at that time).

A few years back an MCSE it was assumed had a high level of knowledge. Then the market became flooded with paper MCSE's. The one's that are still around are people who dug in and learned their craft. In this market people are so afraid of losing their jobs they don't train the people that support them. Almost every job ad out there on this level wants the cert as well as the experience. What does that say about the people who have the experience that don't feel they need the cert? Are they stuck in the same job forever? Have they reached the pinnacle of their careers? Are they bitter about the people that got the certs and the adavancment? The only thing constant about IT is CHANGE! If you don't grow, learn and backup your knowledge with a cert is just your word over the next candidate with a cert.

That last paragraph is so funny.. Serious. My side hurts, I'm laughing so hard.

Most UNIX folks can't even breathe and think at the same time, and UNIX is so much easier (because it is so dumbed down and functionless).

Took you what, years? To get your MCSA (watered down version of MCSE)? But I'm sure you could have done it easily...

I'm sorry, but if MCSE's are a dime a dozen.. UNIX admins are what? A penny?

You're hung up on two technologies that are BOTH substandard! Comparing feces and vomit..

..at 48 I've had to reinvent myself once again. Having been a Journeyman Printing Press Operator to an Overhead
Crane Operator at the lazy B.... to now, starting off part time at a retailer doing bench work. Life is a struggle but with perserverance we shall overcome. Now I 've got to get off my but and find time to take the A+.

There are technical certifications but don't forget certifications from organizations like the Institute for the Certification of Computer Professionals (vendor independent & supported by most of the other independent industry associations).

Holders must pass an exam on an IT "body of knowledge", not just vendor technical/marketing caca, and encompasses more than just having technical skill. Specialty exams can also be taken. Holders must have a minimum combination of education and/or experience to take the examination(s), agree to adhere to a code of ethics, and the certification can be revoked in the event of malpractice or breaching the code of ethics.

However, it seems a certification like this is less important than being able to memorize how to add a computer to Active Directory.

The power of marketing. Go figure.

I'm in the same boat but just got hired part time as a Geek Squad tech...The experience will be good but it's not my dream job(if there is such a thing).

..to many overheated CPU's not SUV's

A few years back an MCSE it was assumed had a high level of knowledge. Then the market became flooded with paper MCSE's. The one's that are still around are people who dug in and learned their craft. In this market people are so afraid of losing their jobs they don't train the people that support them. Almost every job ad out there on this level wants the cert as well as the experience. What does that say about the people who have the experience that don't feel they need the cert? Are they stuck in the same job forever? Have they reached the pinnacle of their careers? Are they bitter about the people that got the certs and the adavancment? The only thing constant about IT is CHANGE! If you don't grow, learn and backup your knowledge with a cert is just your word over the next candidate with a cert.

For all you old time IT pros out there you know what I'm talking about. Remember back in the early to mid 90's the Novell CNE (Certified, but NO Experience) was one of the must have certificate to get into IT. Looking back now there wasn't much too it, but it did take a lot of studying and preparation, at least I had to.

Back then I had to study and study with included lab time and studied until I got a nose bleed in order to obtain my CNE. Once I became a CNE, I was proud that I was not only certified but knew the material which justified and backed my certification. Back then we were certified with no experience, but today we have people that are certified with no clue as to how things operate. The IT profession has gone to the dogs in my opinion. I should say that majority of the IT professional that are out today, especially the ones that came on board during the "hey days" really messed things up for a lot of us.

As the director of IT, I review the prospect IT candidates for our company. Certifications are one of the last things that I look at. Its the experience that I'm looking for and count on. The half dozen colored certificate don't mean anything to me without the experience to back it up. Of course if the position is an entry level position certification is a definite plus.

The newbies in the industry need to realize that CCNA, CCNP, MCSE, CNE, Network+ and etc... are certifications and not a meal tickets. Yes it will help you in obtaining a job, but like anything else in life you'll need to earn the position that you seek. In addition, you may think that cheating on the certification test will help you obtain your MCSE, CNE....etc. but in the long run it will hurt you and put doubts in IT managers and directors mind about what value and worth other IT professionals have. Think about it, IT NOT ONLY ABOUT YOU.

Remmber, industry certification is to backup the experience a person posses, it wasn't meant for it to replace experience.

I work 18-24 months ahead of our implementation plans. My job involves looking ahead at equipment and technologies figuring out when they are ready to solve real business problems. Think Information Lifecycle Management, Grid Computing, Enterprise services. Anyway, HR is always on my butt about getting more certs in my specialty. I am forever explaining there are few classes and no certs in emerging technologies, but they want me to get on a cert track anyway. I love classes, and a good tough cert is a hard-earned recognition for engineering and operations folks, but that's not what I do anymore. So while certs are very valuable for some, for otheres, especially in emerging technologies, they make no sense whatsoever.

is it OK to publically embarass someone? I grant you that the individual likely knew more about passing the exam than managing a SQL server but there are two sides to every story... and we still don't know that individuals perspective.

I agree you your comments %100! I am outraged that my IT group at work have great salaries but find that they don't half the knowledge I have worked so hard to learn.

Their only difference is that they foot over the money to pay the Microsoft exams whereas I refused because I felt I was wasting hard earned money to answer questions on MS exams that came nowhere close to asking real support questions on servers and workstations relating to the real world.
I am continue floored by IT certified reps calling into my company's support center asking questions I would have been too embarrased to ask, especially if the support rep knows that the caller is an IT certified rep.
I joke with my manager all the time, threating to get my MS certification so I can be as dump as the ones I get calls from.
Although I feel I know alot more about servers and workstations setups, permissions, domains and active directory, because I study and test (hands-on experience), than the average Certificate waving rep, I still can't get any of these positions because I'm not certified. I'm slowly beginning to wise up. It's not what you know, it's what you have that's important.

P.S. I am now living in Washington D.C. - my skin crawls just thinking of some idiot with MS certs exposing classified info.
-R

Guess who all the MCSE's around here visit when they don't know what to do? Me... the guy with ZERO certifications, no college degree and a funny haircut. The one person that is nostalgic about DOS and actually prefers the command prompt to a GUI. I have created a "non-standard" acronym for every useless tech I have met that holds an MCSE.
http://www.tburke.net/fun_stuff/pictures/computers/certification.gif

Here are but a few:
Must Consult (or Call) Someone Experienced
Minesweeper Certified / Solitare Expert
Morons Crudely Simulating Expertise
My Computer's Software Exploded
Minimizing Competence Seems Exhausting
My Cranium Softened Easily
Management Conned by Something Expensive
Moe and Curly's Software Emporium
Micro$oft Clusterfsck Slows Everything
My Company Screws Everyone
Minimally Cheerful Software Experience
Mad Consultants Slurping Everclear
Micro$oft Consultants Slow Everything
More Co-opted Standards Everyday
Megabytes Can Soon Evaporate
Making Clearly Simple Exploits
Multiple Corrective Servicepack Exorcist
Managing Cr@p Systems Everyday
Maintenance Contracts Seem Expensive
Making Computers Spew Errors
Moron Confused by Sun Equipment
Marketing Cancels Software Efficiency
Marksmanship Can Solve Everything
Migraine Causing Software Experience
Molasses Comparatively Seems Expeditious
Micro$oft Computers Suck Exponentially
Mozilla Couldn't Stomach Explorer
Marketing Cretins Sell Everything
Mail Consumed Somewhere in Exchange
Maintenance Costs Significantly Extra
Mediocre Computer Science Education
Mindless Corporate Systems Engineer
Microsoft Certified Shutdown Engineer
Microsoft Cretins Seeking Employment

but I find it necessary to disagree with you. Unix people know Unix... thats their bread and butter. Shoot you can hardly put a Unix person at some Linux consoles and expect them to understand what to do from the get-go. This is no different than Windows at the Server level. OS's, even ones that are supposed to be the same, all have tangible differences. Its understanding these differences that differentiate those who know from those who don't.