C vs. Java vs. VB

I've only done machine code, basic, pascal, c++ , Delphi, VB, ADA, Occam, Prolog and umpteen scripting languages.
Nice to see someone who makes me look like I just completed my first VBA macro, now I'll know who to ask when I get stuck.

I've yet to see anything that was simplified by ActiveX either, may have been the idea, but no way was it the actuality.

Do you think two syntactically distinct and unequal methods of describing the same interface contract will cause confusion ?
Nah.

If we agreed on everything, WTF would we talk about?

In fact in the interest of continuing the thread. My alias is better than yours, so nah !

no more trusting your answers to programming stuff.
not if he's done more languages than you have.

and here I had thought you actually knew something.

;)

It just makes me feel old rather than wise. I could mention that I was on the ANS X3J12 committee for standard DIBOL that approved the 1992 standard, that I've written a few special-purpose languages myself, and that I advise Synergex (http://www.synergex.com) on extending their version of the DIBOL language to be object-oriented (which will happen in their next major version - 9.0). But I don't want to toot my horn too loudly (vbg).

Anyways, what makes a language good is not that someone says it is, it's how well it works for your specific needs -- and perhaps more importantly how well the code you create with it ages. The latter has a lot more to do with design than the language itself, but the quirks and capabilities of any given language predispose you to use certain design principles, and to take certain approaches to a problem.

Writing code in any language is not programing, it's translating. You have your design and you implement it in a language on an operating system on a platform.
No design = crap program.
No discipline and standards = soon to be crap program, no matter how good the design.
Some languages are incapable of implementing a design, not some designs can't be implemented in a language.

My first formal programming exercise and the one with the most value was
Write down what buttons you would press to make your calculator multiply 3 by 5.
It was amazing how many of us had missed the first step, turn it ON !.

There are all kinds of languages floating around. However, in procedural languages and OOP languages, what you learn in C of any flavor will transport easily. VB won't. Java has a great deal going for it, but learning and implementing an exception handler will make more sense once you have exceptions and handler code under your belt in C.

If your C package includes a native in-line-assembly capability, you will want to play around with that a bit after you have C well in hand. One of the best ways to get fast programs is to code the whole thing in a good language that compiles, and has an assembler option, then profile the run time, and optimize only the real time conusuming bits (generally less than 5% of your code) in assembly. This method will make your programs 10-20% faster than all but the very best high level code hackers, and you will find yourself very valuable everywhere.

Regards,
Les H

Best way to find information is to get differing opinions. I knew there were plenty of languages, but the only ones I've had any exposure to have been C-based, VB, and Java.

My purpose was to find a good language that is going to be a marketable skill and I can teach myself. As I said originally, I've done some basic programming, but not enough that I could walk into an interview and say that I thouroughly understood the language. I'm stuck in a situation where I'm the IT department for my company and I'm not going to get more experience than what I have, but I haven't picked up enough skills to get the job I want.

The debate about all the other languages has just opened up my mind to how much more there is to learn after I get one under my belt and find a good situation where I can pick up more skills.

Education comes from the debate, so I welcome the arguments.

While C# adds some syntatic sugar to Java such as the way properties are handled and other minor improvement (explicit implementation of interface methods, etc...) I really don't see how C# is a "much better OO environment".
If what you mean is that C# will give you access to some OS (Windows) specific features more easily you may be right.
But none of that makes it a "much better" OO environment. Unless you can really state the specific features of C# that make it a better OO environment I maintain my point. In fact, I think that some of the syntatic sugar in C# makes it more difficult to learn (probably not the original intent of Anders when he added the "sugar").

all you need is friends !
This is a facility that can be used in C#, Delphi and C++ , but in Delphi at least it's not recomended, in Java it is. I've made use of the equivalent myself, but I'm always aware that I'm compromising strict OO principles when I do so.
I wouldn't say Java is a bad OO environment, just that both C# & Delphi in my opinion are better. Delphi is way less of a career move though and C# a lot less established. In terms of OO my objections to Java are based on formalism and style. In terms of coding, I consider being unable to compile as restrictive, but that's a whole different ball game.
In essence Java makes me uncomfortable, so does C++ and both for different reasons. The reasons for that are more probably to do with me than the languages themselves.

worked pretty well. A few times I had problems creating a wrapper, but a lot of that was down to the same confusion over the interface description, .NET cured. Delphi's housekeeping on COM was nice, except when you had to explicitly take another reference, because you didn't want it to go out of scope.
Personally I could have lived without it. I do a lot of things by habit. Create a resource, use it free it. I'd rather do that all the time than 'forget' that I did need to do it here, even though I didn't need to do it there. Still using COM at the moment in legacy code, I'll be glad to see the back of it as well.

braver than I am.. doing event driven procedural programming.

though some procedural requirements actually make for good codeing practice in oop as well, like explicitly initialising your variables. [ avoiding possible random contents of the memory location causing problems ]
It may not be required for functionality, but the procedural approach to variables and memory management causes you to pay more attention to both, reducing buffer overrun, stack overrun and heap errors.

My original answer to your question was colored by the fact that in your original statement you mentioned: "not neccessarily make a career out of it". That is why I suggested Delphi. As you can see from the messages in this discussion getting an answer to your first question is not obvious. There is no perfect language (I have used a lot of languages and I have formal training in several languages). You have to select a language based on different factors.
A few pointers:
1) For an IT guy like you it might be usefull to get one language under your belt that can compile to a compact .EXE that does not require a runtime environment. This will give you the capability of building yourself little utilities that you can easily cary around and use on different systems.
C++ and Delphi are good options for that but you will spare yourself a lot of pain by using Delphi for this (I am assuming that your main platform is Windows/x86).
2) For anyone working with computers it is nice to have a very expressive language to quickly build little script to run on your development PC. These little scripts typically do not need to be fast so the best choices for that is any of the script languages like: Python, Ruby (my personnal favorite), TCL.
In a comment later in the discussion you mentionned that you would like this language to be a "marketable skill". For that you will be better with one of the more "mainstream" languages like Java or C#. The advantage with Java is that it is easier for me to answer the second question in your original message (...good books):
The "Head First Java" and "Head First Pattern" are excellant (in that order) because they will "drill" the subject into your head.
"Object-Oriented Design Heuristics" by Arthur J. Riel
"Object Design" by Wirfs-Brock and McKean
Of course the original book on pattern:
"Design Patterns" by Gamma, Helm, Johnson and Vlissides is a good rederence.
This list could go on and on but I will end my personnal suggestions with:
"Code Complete 2nd Edition" by Steve McConnell

Good Luck and have fun in 2006
JS

I had almost forgotten about taking Fortran in college. VB3 was the first iteration I touched.

Thanks to you and others for the "heated" debate. I believe that we are all passionate about the languages we implement designs in.

The mention of Ruby sparked some interest in me also and I plan to have a look.

Given that you think it is a joke and it frustrated you; then the joke must have been on you.

I guess that you shutoff the compiler warnings in whatever you use for a compiler.

.. in this case would apply to something that has already been done. Given that Python came after C, it would be the redundant language.

Thanks for the clarification that Python is simplified C. I'm sure that your 20 lines call some routines that have a pretty specific purpose, which is fine; but I suspect there are C routines available (perhaps not in the core) for the same purposes.

In a data structures class I took in college, one of our exercises was to write routines to create, access and delete indexes in C. I have never written scratch index routines, but rather used a third party library to implement indexing.
Why re-invent the wheel, unless you are in the wheel making business.

I simply refuse to countenance the idea that VB is a good environment to work or learn in. What are you comparing it to, to say it's good ?
The joke was indeed on me, I was forced to use it on a contract, I didn't find it funny, can't say I'm pleased you are.

As for the last crack, I've been coding commercially for 18 years under DOS, windows, unix, vms, Hp, linux and Unix, so you might want to consider I might know what I'm doing. Academically I started in 1977, just because I haven't got tech in my alias doesn't mean I'm a twat.

vs compiled: it may be slower but computers are getting faster and may not really matter. interpreted languages are sometimes alot easier to debug. I've worked in a language where if an error occurs, you examine the data or code, change either and continue from same point or other in code.

In fact a major erp vendor tried to re-write their package in this language to c++ and never finished, scrapped it. a paragraph translates to 2 pages of c++ calls with one vendor's translation tool.

VB is sad in that it changes every other year. compare to old languages which actually have ansi standards (fortran, cobol, etc). And java has std also.

That said, I love it. I don't know much java but can do what I want in windoze with vb quickly, without huge learning curve of java, and mysterious jars that are missing (full of what I don't know).

two reasons:
1) you aren't happy with the way the one you have functions.

2) licensing restrictions.

C isn't the general-purpose language it once was, because advances in programming methodology over the years has rendered it redundant in comparison with languages better suited to a wide range of tasks. There are still many tasks for which C is the best (well known) language we have, however, so as a whole C isn't totally redundant, where in this case redundant is a synonym for obsolete.

Python isn't redundant, either, even with the existence of Perl, Ruby, and the Lisp family of languages. It appeals to the coding style of a great many programmers, and its strengths and weaknesses are just slightly askew from those of the other languages I've mentioned, so it too has its place -- especially since the language to which it's currently beign compared by you and Oz for "redundancy" purposes is C, which is good at far, far different things than what Python is good at.

Java, on the other hand . . . if it wasn't so good at limiting the damage a mediocre programmer can do on a large project with too many developers, it would be "redundant" or "obsolete". It doesn't have strong advantages over alternatives other than the aforementioned ability to limit damage, and in fact Python is nipping at its heels in the same area.

1 minute 30 seconds to start a program that is written in java.

25 seconds to start a program that does exactly the same thing, with exactly the same quality of output when it's compiled.

that's 1 minute and 5 seconds every time the program is started in lost productivity.

then we'll address the issue of poor programming habits generated by relying on HARDWARE to make up deficiencies in software.
bad thing.
very very bad thing.
java, or any other interpreted language, used for creating something like a word processor just says that the programmers are to lazy to write good effetive code, they would rather have hardware make up for thier lack of skill / laziness.

A while ago I went to a MS meeting where we typed in the code in VB for INK a nice little program for tablets but it really was not an effective way of coding. It took about 3/4 of the day to write the code from the printed handouts and at each step we had to make sure that the particular subroutine actually worked which it mostly did.

At the end of the day I wrote the entire thing in C++ in about 20 minutes and it worked better than the MS offering that the presenter Neil something was offering. He took that code and while I don't know what he did with it I would have hoped that some of it made its way into the finished product as the VB effort was really miserable and at every MS meeting that I've ever gone to VB has always been described as the [b]EASY WAY[/b] to write code but it certainly lacks a lot of finesse.

Col ]:)

Java is great for Web Pages C++ is fantastic for writing programs and VB in just plain and simple the [b]Poor Mans Language[/b] as it is so cumbersome but useful for short strings of code that are not critical to the working of the program.

As for books the Dummies Series is one of the best available for any level of competency as it covers everything from the grass roots up and doesn't require any knowledge of the subject to start with. They make a very good starting point particularly if you are not doing it every day. :D

Col ]:)

You have a point about computer resources/speed. The language implementation doesn't necessarily need to be as resource-light to be able to perform at an acceptable speed as computers get faster and faster. The progression isn't nearly as fast as you make it out to be: it's going to be a gawdawful long time yet before the speed of VB and Java apps is anywhere near acceptable for the sort of heavy-lifting programming that they're both (mis)used to accomplish a lot of the time.

Both languages suffer from overmarketing: they're each billed by their respective vendors as some kind of panacea, VB to the glorified macro writer of the Windows world and Java to those paragons of lukewarm skill, the workaday corporate drones of the programming world for whom writing code is "just a job". The fact that both Java and VB are being used as server-side web/network programming languages, even with their current absurdly inefficient interpreter/compiler implementations, is a testament to the power of marketing to influence people to make moronic technology decisions.

The reason it's easy for many people to write code for Windows using VB is simple: all they're typically writing is overblown macros. You'd actually be better off using VBScript for that, and if you're going to use a scripting language you might as well use a better one than VBS. Once you start trying to put together really complex program logic, the source code for your algorithms starts to look like the Leaning Tower of Pisa in a language like VB. That, at least, is one area where Java has a distinct advantage over VB: code scalability.

aside from the info compiled into the exe, is essentially part of your coding environment, little to do with interpreted vs compiled.
VB indeed is an early learning curve, that was what is was designed for and part of much of it's success. Unfortunately, a lot of people with no formal training became 'programmers' (actually application builders), resulting in a lot of very poor coding practices.
I've used VB, it worked, I could have done it much better, but it did the job, and aside from having to work round some things it does not do well at all, in the main I got a useful deliverable out of the door in a very short space of time. Requiring less skill to build run of the mill apps, and faster throughput is a real selling point.

Personally I belive they could I have got fairly close to the productivity and ease of use and still improved VB technically, there was simply no commercial advantage in doing so, would have eaten in to Visual C's market then wouldn't it.

The reason I prefer compiled over interpreted is it gives me a much finer control on what the code does, but without a lot of training/education and experience, this is not something a novice can do.

My big concern over modern day practice is that the foundation techniques you would use to go down this route aren't required therefore not taught in interpreted environments.

Last but not least yes we can throw hardware at a problem, to cope with a situation where this, is, becomes impractical where do you go if you've no idea where to start though. OO itself is a massive overhead that's essentially paid for by improved development efficiency and currently acceptable hardware performance.

I remember them well...
Is the variable an Object?, an Integer?, a Variant? Is it Null, Empty, or Nothing? Heck, why even declare it, who cares about case sensitivity in the name?
How about arrays? Wow, remember 'Redim Preserve' (but don't add an initial size to the Dim statement!)

What a mess!

Where Microsoft really shined was in slapping a $1000 IDE on over this piece of crap so all sins were forgiven. Anyone with a pulse and the ability to read at 8th grade level was now an application developer...NOT!!!

Java, and C# finally imposed some order and consistency on the chaos, VB.NET thrown in to appease those who are basically untrainable. Coming up with the Visual Studio .NET IDE to learn C# and ASP.NET without forking over $$$$ was always my problem, not so with Visual Studio 6 which did not require activation and Java which was more command line friendly and soon had free IDE's available.

I addressed the original question more directly in some other posts in this discussion thread. I sometimes try to actually apply the DRY principle to what I'm doing, so don't expect every single post from me to say exactly the same thing. You might realize that this snap-judgment post of yours was inappropriate if you bothered to check out some of the rest of the thread.

I'm beginning to get the impression that you just like to disagree with me.

never die out, they are both mixed with assembler for systems programming in all operating systems maybe excepting solaris.

a few trillion man hours to get rid of them and completely re-write windows, linux, unix, irix, bsd, freebsd, openbsd and netbsd. don't see that happening any time soon.

In this case I don't think that this person will be writing anything more than a couple of Macros which in my books is not programing that was and still should be clerical work! :)

I just find it unnerving to see Macro writers being called "Programmers" when they really are nothing more than glorified secretaries. :p

Col ]:)

Of course, Back In The Day, with classic number-lined BASIC, you could make a Hello World in two lines. For a while, it would literally take a couple dozen lines with Visual Basic. Now, it's down to six.

This is progress . . . ?

if an application takes up more clock cycles.
to anyone with any pride in doing the job right.

relying on hardware to make up for software deficiencies is just showing both a lack of pride in your work, and pure laziness, you can't be bothered to write good code.

...again, in my opinion. You either put your money on who you think will win, or you wait to see who shakes out as the winner.

What I mean is Micro$oft languages and Java come at the same issue from opposite sides. Java strives for WORA (Write Once, Run Anywere). You write your code once and it runs on any platform for which a JVM exists. With .NET, you can program in almost any language you choose, but the program will only run on a Windows platform.

I can see advantage in both approaches. Personally, I think Java's approach is the better of the two. Meanwhile, Micro$soft is the 9,800 lb gorilla and you can't ignore it.

To specifically answer your question, I don't think you can isolate on one language. I would say become proficient in Java and a M$ language of your choice, C# perhaps.

Sorry, but I beg to differ. I have programmed in C, Java and VB (1.0 through .NET). Although I agree the .Net changes are a most welcome improvement, to call VB a "toy" shows an arrogant attitude to one of the most widely used languages around. And all it takes is a bit of ingenuity to work around any of it's limitations, which are much less now with .Net.

To the original poster, my advice as to which language to use? I would suggest that you study all 3 (VB, C# and Java). Each has it's uses, and you while you have said you don't want to make a career of it, you never know when you may have to read code in either of these languages.

If you're not going to make a career out of the language, then it seems clear to me that you just want to get productive quickly and do some stuff for yourself. (Let me know if that's not the case.) With this assumption, you would not want to go C or Java, because nether are languages you can learn almost immediately and get productive right away. That leaves only your third language, VB.

Some will argue that Java can be learned quickly and easily, but I've done Java and it's not as easy as they say. Well, actually Java itself isn't bad, but J2EE (n-tier Java) is complicated. Not to mention Java is generally slow and not best suited for writing desktop executables (if that is what you're planning to do). VB is definitely your best choice here, imo.

I'm being unfair to myself. I've actually been programming for three years now, but been doing it as a skill, which is your goal. Here's my experience:
There?s going to be some times when you want to show off what you know to relatives and fellow employees, or do a project as a favor. My first choice is VB6 or VB.Net. It?s very easy to learn and using VBA (VB for MS Applications) provides an easy, cheap learning tool. VB6 is well documented and plenty of free support online. I?m in school for Software Engineering and I see the power of C++ and Java, but neither is as easy as VB-whatever or as well supported or provide rapid solutions to problems that just pop up.
However, Microsoft does frustrate you sometimes ? their online programming help for the novice is intimidating; when they go to the next version of their products, they dump all support for any older products; and they have to be forced by the industry (not the customers) to provide any cross-platform compatibility.
P.S. ? Java is very abstract. Unlike C++ and VB-whatever, I find I have to memorize instead of understand what?s going on. By the way, I read some of the posts, and what do people mean that Java is a scripting language? I?ve never heard it described that way.

I agree: it's better to learn all three than only one, all else being equal.

Of course, you should pick one to learn first. Then, having learned C (for instance), you may decide you're better off learning a well-constructed language rather than Visual Basic. There are enough good programming languages out there that it's generally a waste of time to learn the crappy languages. If you have to learn a .NET language, learn C# or IronPython instead.

evmafau:

This question is much the same as asking a carpenter which tools they prefer. We all have things we prefer, but sometimes have to use things we don't. I may enjoy using an air gun for pounding in nails, or I may prefer to do it the old-fashioned way.

Despite the rhetoric, no one language is better than the other, they are all just tools and you need to choose the one that gets you the best results for the job.

Since as a junior programmer, you won't likely be given a choice as to which language you will use, I agree with the post that recommended you find out what is hot in your area (or the area you want to live in... ;-) and pursue that. Once you get some experience, you will see that every language has positives and negatives, and then you can start investigating alternatives for each job.

A Ferrari is a great car for summer driving, but sucks in the snow, if you get my analogy.

NOTE: Don't get too personal about language preferences either, like anything in the IT field, they will come and go like the wind and if you start holding onto languages for nostalgic reasons, you may end up becoming obsolete. Keep learning new languages/things or find a different career field.

Good luck!

I have read through all the posts... What I find interesting, is the bias in all these people harbouring all this protection over languages they program in.

Sounds similar to how I was like back in 91 with Borland C and people trying to convince me C++ was better.

I remember how I was so against C++ because I felt I wasn't in control of my programming, and lacked the similar functionalities of C (although some required more steps in C, they allowed the control I required).

I never jumped into the C++ bandwagon because well, I went from Basic (Commodore), to C & Pascal, to Java to VB... and all the other fun inbetween's I tried and figured it was a waste of time.

The perceptions of VB astounds me, especially when people compare C# to VB as though it's way ahead of VB.. That's funny, even in Microsofts own words, VB comes out ahead in things, and C# comes out ahead in things. So when I see people sitting here balking at VB then, saying how C# is better..

I understand:

A) they have never utilized the language to it's fullest

B) they don't know it enough to make a sound judgement and like anything else in this industry they critisize what they do not know.

C) They were crappy programmers (and probably still are with their own languages of preference)

D) Simply have no idea what the hell they are talking about

These concepts are the same with any language, all have their up's and down's... VB .NET, C# .NET are not "amateur" languages as much as the person who's sitting between the chair and the keyboard.

I love misinformation and what I love more is people reaction's to how VB is a bane to the programming world.

No matter what language you program in.. Concepts are the same.. Syntax is syntax is syntax.. The type of language is all that differs.

I mean when I went from Borland C to Java.. It was syntax.. When I went from Java to VB it was merely syntax again, (with some differing concepts because of the programming design environment).

Could there be speed variances between languages? Well obviously.. But if we're going to go for optimal speed/memory consumption. We should all be programming in Assembler period.

Procedural (Progress 4GL), Event Driven (Less VB Nowadays) and OOP (More VB, C#, C++ or Java).

First things first original poster, choose the language you feel comfortable in and excel at it. Take the time to have some pride in your code... I have worked with Veterans like myself who started with C and went into GUI C++ or to other languages and they got worse as time progressed. They're code became convuluded etc...

I swear I'd be a millionaire if I got paid 10 cents per line of syntax I've fixed from supposed "C++" guru's in UNIX environment when I used to program in AIX environment.

It's a matter of personal preference if anything, people who knock .NET usually don't know much about the language (maybe used it for 6 months) which in any language.. we all know.. You don't become an expert in a language in six months.. It takes years.

Either of those 3 languages are great, just concentrate on the learning how to use best of logic processing instead of bloated code.

People don't seem to care about the little things that increase speed, so their "speed" suffers as much as they think it doesn't. Same goes with memory issues. This is the stuff that veteran programmers who are actual "experts" will tell you.

"Oh let the compiler and/or environment take care of removing the object from memory"

"Oh add another processor"
"Add more ram"

That's the kind of lazy programming you see today in most languages.

By the way.. If you want to go from a "mere" money perspective... Progress has some of the highest paying jobs out there (yet no one has really ever heard of the language, which it's also interpreted, again which is why it's high) They are far and few between yet.. It in over 70%-80% (go to their site to see for yourself) of the Fortune 500 companies.

I've found that a good Community College can offer some of the best hands-on programming training. You have the advantage of sitting in the room with the instructor and the possibility of getting to know the fellow students far better than if you "meet" them online. It can also be a great way to learn about the local job market.

I see that Broward Community College offers a C++ class. Check it out at
http://www.broward.edu/ext/Coursedetail.jsp?ccn=COP1334C&Name=COP

Hopefully you don't live too far from that campus....

My apologies for inferring a preference that didn't exist.

I evaluated different versions of Progress over the course of several years, starting with version 6.2. Yes, their DB is their strong point. It definitely gives Oracle and SQL Server a run for the money with features like the two-phase commit. My comment about SQL is because the language seems to me to be modeled on SQL syntax, which in many ways resembles COBOL, minus the data division (which was COBOL's really useful part). In fact, SQL statements can be executed against the Progress DB as part of the Progress language's syntax. If you're DB oriented, that's actually a nice feature. It looks like even .NET has jumped on that bandwagon by extending their languages to include SQL-like statements. But, as you mentioned, trying to code UI apps using that same type of syntax is rather clunky. Even computational logic is far less elegant using line-oriented commands. That's where my gripe with VB comes in. The UI designer is great, but when it comes to coding the logic, you have to fight the language more than you should.

VB surely is the one. Try VB.net, although the initial learning curve is steep but worth it. C is proficient for driver developer or low level handling.

There is some argument about the battle between Java and LAMP(Linux, Apache server, MYSQL database and PHP scripting combination), Java has become the loser in web designer battle.

You have a point. Luckily, that's not something I've ever had to do, so I've never really had to do any heavy lifting with Visual Basic.

I say again: ugh.

learn a a language. With a reference manual and a vague idea of the purpose, you should be able to get the sense of any code.
Toy might be a bit harsh, but VB's popularity was based on how easy it was to achieve something from a standing start, not achieving it well.