Discussion Locked

Databse dependant Website: What software?

0 helpful
31 replies
Closed to new repliesThis discussion is closed. It stays readable, but it takes no new replies.

Hi all,

I was wondering what software packages you would recommend to setup a database dependant website i.e. what database? what website authoring packages? and on which box?

At the moment I am only able to use the Macromedia Studio package but am not sure if I should learn another package to allow me to build a heavily database dependant website.

Any comments or suggestions will be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Andy.

31 replies

by afram

Macromedia's Dreamweaver MX has always been my favorite. If it has a missing feature, you can probably get it as a plug-in from dreamweaver exchange.

If it's a small database, I like to use a simple access file. But I prefer to use Oracle Lite.

by jaqui

purpose / function of the site?

you may not have to code anything, just upload graphics and sql to the webserver / host

look for portal and cms on sourceforge.net
hundreds of database sites, free, most using mysql and or postgresql. which are both free.

by oz_media

Look to Macromedia's Web Dev offers, they have LOTS of databse driven software for the Studio that is just fantastic.

You can see if there are any upcoming webinars here;
http://www.macromedia.com/v1/company/events/seminars/datadrivensites.cfm

The Lasso Extension (costly but easy) has a free demo you can play with to build some robust code;
http://www.macromedia.com/cfusion/exchange/index.cfm?view=sn121&extID=15365

The GenB extension will also offer basic database driven site tools for FREE;
http://www.macromedia.com/cfusion/exchange/index.cfm?view=sn121&extID=1014922

And they also offer the granddaddy Macromedia product; Cold Fusion

http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/

If you are already using MM prodcuts, you have a HUGE edge on most web developers that don't, if there still are any that is. It seems th biggest and most successful sites are built with MM procucts, they simply have no competitors, no....Front Page isn't even remotely close.

The nice thing about the Macromedia products as you probbaly know already is the integration in teh studio, the all just work VERY tightly together and trade code off between apps as needed with ease.

I cannot say enough about these guys, I have used almost all of their products and NEVER EVER had a single issue that either they or a plugin couldn't take care of.

If you haven't upgraded to the StudioMX, DO SO, it is unbelievable how much mroe integrated it is than even the older WebDev Studio, MX just flies.

If you can't find what you need at Macromedia, you didn't look, plain and simple. Send them and email or hit the forums, where support is simply second to none.

Nothing you find will compare to the functionality and simplicity of sitewide management/redesign that Macromedia offers.

Good luck, let me know if you have questions.
OM

by oz_media

The URL had a comma

Macromdia has offered nothing but top notch support in my case, and I've worker quite closely with them on a few wierd, customer specific issues.

CF has been rock solid in any case I've used it too.

by choppit

As a Web development tool Dreamweaver is pretty good. As for DBs this will depend on the scale/ needs of your site and your web host (if you already have one). Some scripting languages are designed to work well together e.g. PHP/MySQL, ASP/SQL.

by tony hopkinson

and what sort of volumes are you expecting?

My recent and ongoing experience.

Lowest cost solution is mysql on a linux box in terms of cash outlay (just the pc if you don't need support). The learning curve is not that steep. You get apache as your webserver as well. Perl & PHP no problem. However if you were planning microsoft technologies, complex stored procedure/cursor based SQL or a monster of a database, this will not be the solution.

I grow this particular setup in plant pots on the window sill at work. The accountants love it and if you bear it's limitations in mind it's quick, clean and dirt cheap. We've got about eight mini MIS systems in place at the moment. On mine apart from self inflicted mayhem due to ignorance, I haven't had a single problem, but I'm only talking about 20 simultaneous GUI clients and 2G of data, though both volumes are growing at a pleasing pace.

Design package I can't really help you as the front end on my systems is principally windows GUIs. I've done some bits and pieces of perl and php, mainly admin type stuff and help pages for the apps. Hotmetal pro and notepad serve my needs more than adequately for this limited amount of work. I can tell you however that PHP and mysql under linux is very easy to pick up.

Post back if you want more detail.

P.S. Mysql's raison d'etre is speed, not function and not integrity. The sacrifices they have made in order to achieve this would give an Oracle DBA a heart attack. This is not a problem in many situations but I would never recommend mysql as it stands to a customer whose principle concern is data integrity and encapsulation of business rules.

by tony hopkinson

Just in case I scared anyone.

As in all cases it depends. But mySQL has made a conscious decision to go for low cost and high speed, so sometimes it takes risks with other factors. So your desision is how big a risk is this to my requirements.

For instance
Mysql stores each table and each set of indexes for a table in separate files.

I've managed only once to get these out of step with each other, and that's without any referential integrity. ie my index and my table were out of step. As far as I understand it the decision was made to take advantage of linux's powerful write ahead capability and trust the o/s's disk management to keep the physical files upto date with mysql's cache. They justify this decison based on the performance advantage and linux's stability.
However it is potentially possible to 'lose data', or for a index failure to cause data to not be returned. Other Servers keep all there data in one file, then manages the content it self, so it knows when a write has succeeded, failed or is pending. MySQL assumes all writes have succeeded.

Good back up strategy, and not taking your hardware to it's limits along with not shooting myself in the foot has reduced the risk to acceptable levels and should for you as well. There are situations where this would not be true. It's not so much the type of data, as the potential for an error like this to proliferate all through your data, before you can gulp.

We aren't, so I'm very happy with it. If you were talking call logging/usage for a major telco then I'd be getting something big and heavy out, and damned expensive too.

System has been up nearly two years with one failure, (ow my foot). Some of my colleagues who run a bit closer to the edge of their servers have had a few more, but all of these were in the replication slave.

Running 4.1.0 Alpha Max Log under Mandrake linux 9, at the moment.

Encapsulation is a different ball game. No stored procedures, no cursors and no rules means you cannot put your business logic in the database. Any rule enforcment must be done in another layer.

by jaqui

well, if you have to keep procedures, business logic et all sparate from the data, the data is also broken into sparate components, doesn't this actually make it more difficult for someone to get un-authorised access to the data in a usable format?

so it is more secure, yes?

by oz_media

Well most telco's I've known use CDAR or SMDR for call detail reporting.

Smaller companies need only use SPrint with CDAR free on business invoices with secure codes.

Most other billing style CDAR systems do not secure codes and you still get calls coming from user 99999 an can never trace the calls back.

I have yet to see one use any form of MS software for reporting, big and heavy doesn't come into it.
The line cards used are about the size of a laptops system board.

They big and heavy part comes in the form of a case of money.

by sergej at rinc.ws

If you are concerned about integrity and need stored procedures while remaining cost-free (open source database) why don't you try PostgreSQL? I've never had speed problems with this RDMBS (yeah, for short tables MySQL is little faster) and have all SQL power available for free.

by tony hopkinson

Big, powerful and on unix. (Sybase & Oracle where I've worked. Telcos don't like the idea someone could make a call without it going on the bill. The thought of losing a bill ... Not pretty.

by oz_media

Most software used is propritary to the switches in place, generally Nortel DMS switching these days.

Certainly no Win logos or blue screens to be found, even basic POTS systems are light years ahead of that stuff when it comes to reliability and performance. Can you IMAGINE a MS server trying to keep up with POTS call reporting for a large company, yet alone a telco?! God say it isn't so!!

by tony hopkinson

LOL
What about that canadian bank that runs on word macros and access.?

Worked as an ms desktop application developer in two big telcos, it was always good for a laugh to tell them if it was ms the sql would have been much simpler and they wouldn't need scripts to embed it in.

More than a few didn't think it was funny, I guess they'd just had a visit from an ms rep, who'd offered some new business head a good deal.

Course the suffering went both ways. The senior oracle guy didn't like having his time wasted again, but the ms rep soon realised he'd been stiffed by his colleagues with the if you succeed in this market you'll be able to write your own ticket speech.

I'm pretty sure the dba's didn't actually know what the data was for they just new it was theirs and they were going to take very good care of it.

by tony hopkinson

you do it. In a business middleware layer with the code and architecture of your choice. Or in the Database itself.

Either way works in my experience. Both have benefits and drawbacks, pick the one that's best for you, essentially it's a portability issue.

Usable format ?
No you've made it more difficult to make use of an authorisation they should not have.

Even worse it's not just unauthorized people who find it hard to read, and that's too big a price as far as I'm concerned.

If you were talking about streaming business objects into the database, then I've heard of it but never worked anywhere where they've given it a go. I love the idea as an application architect but I'm not convinced of how practical it is overall.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts if you've gone down that route.

by jaqui

in content managment for websites.

breaking it apart into separate dbs helped keep the seperate tables of hugely active site from becoming a single huge db that really bogged down on the performance end.

this was a site that was originally started up with php nuke.
when they hit the 50 thousand member point the site was incredibly slow. encapsulating the separate sections into distinct db, with a tie in for the users sped the site up exponentially.

by tony hopkinson

experiences myself on that front. And the reverse where someone has about two tables per database and then writes a join across four of them. They'd separated the data by source not function.
Took me about 30 minutes to knock 55 seconds off the GUI response time. A lot of puzzled looks when I told them there wasn't a new version of the application.
I was using the term encapsulation in terms of implied business rules, from the obvious each order must have a customer, to the business process of creating an order thru a stored procedure, affecting various associated data. Provisioning for instance, or deliveries.

by tony hopkinson

a while back and over here at least there were far fewer postings for cold fusion than asp or php. From what I've seen it's nice, clear and simple, but scripts are not my favourite thing, I'd much rather work in a strongly typed environment, only market forces and/or expediency makes me go there.

My favourite web technology is actually ISAPI, which shows anyone can a have a good but unpopular idea. Only used it once and that was in 98.

by oz_media

You mean to say the Cold Fusion coders are remaining employed?!

Why would a job listing prove a popular technology????

It's like when I was younger and sold audio, a customer was looking at Harman Kardon and JVC. I could have made WAY more profit selling the JVC but his needs and taste screamed Harman Kardon.

Even similarly priced, JVC's high end to entry level HK, he decided to buy the JVC.

AS I wrote it up, I asked what had made up his mind (as any salesman should) his reply; "My brother fixes stereo equipment at a popular shop, he's never even heard of Harman Kardon."

NO KIDDING HE ACTUALLY SAID IT WITH A STRAIGHT FACE!!!

Just in case people haven't caught on, a repair shop NOT knowing of a product would be a GOOD thing to most consumers. Having familiarity with a product because you fix it a lot is not a good thing. :D

17 years later, and I still never forgot the guy who was so certain because of it's lack of appearances in a repair shop!!

by tony hopkinson

The number's aren't solid of course but the split was about 40% each for ASP/JSP and PHP, with CF being the biggest of the remainder. I use it as a sort of indicator of what the pimps are looking for besides their cut.

Either there aren't many jobs on the market or there aren't many jobs.

Either ones no use to me when I'm hitting the end of a contract, course if I can persuade some one to use it I will and then it goes on my cv, but first I get a job.

by jaqui

Macromedia's fault that the free webmail service has really bad coding, and isn't reliable at all.

can't be ms's fault that the nt servers aren't capable of better than 75% uptime.

but the service is an excellent example of what not to do when creating a database driven site.

we'll ignore the gator.com link / cookies it sets,
the smileys.com advertising.
the 45 seconds for login due to really bad db design.

another good site for how not to code a db driven site is linuxformat.

http://www.linuxformat.co.uk/

which seems to operate under a permanent /. effect

a site, db driven, that runs well is sourceforge.

by oz_media

We perhaps aren't talking apples and apples.

I am suggesting Macromedia for atabase driven websites. They provide the encoding software that is a slice to work with. How you implement it is entirely up to th user I suppose.

Note that many MASSIVE e-commerce and internal websites uses Cold Fusion for it's accuracy and abliity to not write uneccessary code as some software does unknowlingly in many cases. Macromedia is a powerful suite of web devlopment tools that I have yet to seen improved upon or trumped. Having these tools tightly integrated, right down to the graphics and plugin modules ia just the sweetest thing for any experienced MM designer. There's a huge learnign curve when unfamiliar with MM suites but once that curve is overcome, it is a must have for any busy deigner/desing team. Speed, accuracy and stability as well as flexibility is hard to find integrated.

OK I checked that site, what a farce. This is DEFINITELY NOT an example of Cold Fusion at work. It has some poorly written Java script and that's about it.

For this users needs, I would be surprised ot see that the existing Dreamweaver MX suite wouldn't e able to do it as is. Dreamweaver works effortlessly with ASP, ASP.NET, PHP, and JSP out of the box.

Cold Fusion MX enables: http://www.macromedia.com/software/coldfusion/whitepapers/pdf/6_1/cfmx61_feature_comparison_matrix.pdf

by oz_media

I am referring to Macromedia's COld Fusion, it is not a replacement for ASP,JSP or PHP programmers, it is a tool used BY ASP, JSP and PHP programmers to interface the data with the website.

Macromedia devlops Dreamweaver too, this doesn't mean it competes with HTML, WHTML programmersm in fact it is just a tool used BY HTML, XHTML programmmers (and other web languagesof course).

Macromedia just streamlines and speeds up these processes bu leaps and bounds, any employers wet dream.

If you can code an active page and setup the server side scripts in 8 hours, it can be done in 2 or 3 hours by a decent Macromedia programmer.

THis doesnt mean you have to seek jobs that are hiring MM coders, in fact I have taken MM to several companies and they have in turn had the newly hired designers use it after seeing how quickly I could build the pages.

If a company has spearate image creators, copy collaborators, FLASH designers etc. THey can all work on the same site with it's integrated tools without even so much as a phone call. It offers collaboration between many users a check in/out feature for simplifying new changes to the site etc. All be different designers that don't even have to know each other.

Nobody else does this, even remotely as well as Macromedia, it's a rock solid leader by a LONG shot. Adobe tried a similar set of integration utilities to put Acrobat, Photoshop and Illustrator together, with the Go Live software but it flopped miserably.

MS tried it but couldn't even make the HTML editor a worthhwhle product with Front Page and it's suite of buggy tools.

NObody else has tried, unless you have used the MC suite, and really begin to understand how it works, it is simply something you can't possibly understand.

MM developers are in HUGE demand all over the place and make some serious money by the time they master the whole suite.

by oz_media

Before deregulation, the majority of Canada's "Provincial" telco's were majority owned and operated under an umbrella company called Stentor.
Stentor was majority owned and operated by GTE in the US. So in essence, a US company was responsible for Canadian Provincial telcos, again with the exception of two.

MOST Canadians would swear that the provincial companies were Canadian owned, even the telco employees did, but it was realized a few years after deregulation (by some people) that they had been mislead.

A company in Toronto, started by two guys with ambition, provideddetailed rebilling to governments, local utility companies etc. After deregulation, they took a non-equity share from Sprint US and started Sprint Canada, under the new regulations, company's have ot be majority Canadian owned and operated.

The CDAR (Call Detail Account Recording) they used to provide local telco's with was no longer made available to telcos and they were forced to try their own system (which offered insecure codes and thus is deemed useless). As a result, the push was on for the maufacturers to provide KSU and PBX based cards so employers could track their own calls and use secured codes.

So far the telco's have not matched these offerings and instead will add cards to a Nortel DMS200 (the more popular long distance switch) for call tracking and recording, instead of using inhouse software now.

It's an issue I have followed rather closely since 86 when the deregulatio was passe dby the CRTC, where I worked at the time.

Deregulation aches and pains:
Consumers got really fed up with the competitor phone calls
Consures thought Canadian companies were dipping out and American companies were taking over, because the new compnies carried US corporate names, AT&T Canada (formerly Unitel) and Sprint Canada for example, some even thought BELL Canda was American!!!

The benefits:
more accurate billing from pricate entities
boosted Canadian economy and kept millions of dollars in the country
EVERYONE PAYS LESS THAN THEY USED TO

I remember paying over $2.00/min to call London (at off peak hours)
now I can call for 5 cents a minute (LD, deregulation hit the Atlantic line too).

SO pretty much all call recordign systems and billing is now proprietary from the switch, it may be manipulated, printed and controlled at the server though.

A good friend of mine works for Telus, when BCTel went through major reorganization and teamed up with Albertan companies to develop BCTTelus, he was one of many who were hiredfull time on an 8 month contract to add the Nortel cards to the switches for detailed billing.

This is tracking calls days or weeks before they ever hit a desktop.

by tony hopkinson

I just searched on some of the keywords and dreamweaver got the biggest result but that was only 136. PS I wasn't relying on pimps for technical knowledge LOL.

by house

There are numbers designed exclusively for "no call back" and "no trace". Of course in my case, you could trace a client's phone number back to our server. Using that standard logging practice, you will get nothing.

You want to know something funny, when someone goes NSF, the call is routed straight to our location when they attempt to make a call. It does not leave the server at all, but instead goes right to billing. :)

I'm not entirely sure sure what technology we use for logging... I will have to look into it.

by oz_media

Any communication made through the switch is recoreded, regardless of area code or other CO type of block. ALL calls are recorded regardless.

It would be FAR too easy to commit murder if you could bury your calls so easily.

The external block is a result of the CO's SMDR but that is after it has already been recorded by the switch.

by tony hopkinson

to walk past this sort of kit, under escort because of my known involvement with the unspeakable.
The nearest I ever got to it was analysing a file from a box in argentina when the company was evaluating whether to make a push for the south american market and had a test bed site there, but nothing set up to integrate it into the main system. I think the DBA who was permanent and being layed off in the takeover, kept forgetting to do it.

It took me about an hour, but the only thing I saw was a csv from a call log, which is probably not close enough for me to start advising these guys how they should do things.

by tony hopkinson

Permanents picked it at the company now it's a standard. Have n't used PostgreSQL but I'm a relative newbie to linux.

If someone decides to bring me in before they've already picked the wrong tool I'll definitely bear it in mind.

Cheers for the tip.

by jaqui

default configuration of postgresql is actually more secure than with mysql.
which can be a problem when setting everything up for the first time, but it's definately better than to be more open to intrusion.

one other item that can make a difference in choice when developing database driven sites, database apps.
postgresql is under the bsd license, which allows commercial use.
mysql you have to purchase the commercial license, or it's under the gnu-gpl.

by tony hopkinson

in this case as it's an in house MIS, but I'll remember that one. Unfortunately they didn't bring me in until they'd made a lot of decisions and spent a goodly lump of money in development time learning they didn't have a clue what they were doing.
They decided to have me make what they'd done work instead of doing it properly, still it's keeping me in work.

This discussion is closed to new replies.