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Please, don't call a MCSE a net admin!

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by zen37 1 view

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I've been in the business for seven years now. Not much you might say, but enought to see some things that drive me up the wall.

Nothing ticks me off more then seeing someone call a MCSE a "network administrator". To me, MCSE are "system administrator" because that's what they do, they manage and take care of systems (OS, Applications, etc). Even the name says it, Microsoft certified SYSTEM engineer.

A network administrator is someone who deals in networks. He deals in switches, routers, protocols, ports, access, firewalls, load balancing, etc. That kind of stuff you don't learn from Microsoft, Novell or whatever. You learn it from Cisco, Nortel, Checkpoint, NAI, Radware.

I understand that, in most situation, system administrators take care of the network because there is no one else to do it. But that don't make them specialists in that field.

When i tell people that i'm a network administrator, and they ask me if i did my MCSE 2000 yet, it take offence. I'm CCNA,Shiva (now Intel) certified, working on NAI and Radware. That's what a "real" network administrator does.

Am i the only one that sees this difference? Even here, i came in to this site because it had a "Network admin" section, only to find mostarticles and discussions deal with system administration.

Let me know (politely please) if you think i'm off the mark of should we push for the industry to recongnise the difference.

104 replies

by lordinfidel

This would depend on your definition of Network and administrator.

There is no clear answer to this. I do see your peeve though but from a different point.

I see the word Network Admin thrown about carelessly to people who do not know how to network 2 computers together.

There are though some Net admins who are MCSE's and who are really Sys admins but do take care of their network. To give you an example:

My network: Responsibilites are split into 2 distinct areas, 1. Operations and 2. Topology and Security.

I handle the Operations side of the house which is basically being responsible for Systems, the Lan, Mail, Server hardware etc.

My counterpart is responsible for all network topology (ie. firewalls, dns, routing, wans and architecture).

We are both MCSE's and are both cross-trained and competent in each others areas. I can step in and do his job and he can do mine. But our titles differ. We are both Network Administrators, just one is Operations the otherTopology and Security.

My point being, is what you are called is going to be based on the enviroment that you are in.

When people ask me what I do, I can't even tell them. So I opt for the more general IT Professional.

From the way that I percieve things is that most "Specialized" jobs will state so, like
a Wan admin, or Exchange Admin, or a Network Engineer. Those are going to be Specialized positions.

But a Network Administrator is going to be a little more broader in scope. Because remember what the definition of a Network is. It is not strictly limited to the extranet and advance routing. A network is any 2 computers that can talk to each other ie networked.

So in short, don't sweat the small stuff. You know your s**t, so don't get caught up in titles. It will just make you angry. We will always meet those people who have no business using up bandwidth.

by syadm

There is a difference.
IMHO a NetAdmin is a position while MCSE is a specialized study grade. Any of these does not have to include or exclude the other. Im managing a couple of WAN networks in Europe.
I work mostly with SDH, which is Europes version of Sonet. I dont have MCSE cert. and dont need it although i sometimes do work on our office LAN.
My position is as Network Engineer.
Q: Does this make me a NetAdmin?
If so should i ask for a raise or will my boss lower my pay?
Rgds. Tom

by mhubbard

While the term "network" is and should be used broadly, the title network administrator is different from system administrator.

While my title is IT Manager, and much of my job is HR/Operational IT/Policy making, much of it also is true system admin work - re-building/administrating our servers and apps. Even though I do some local network admin duties, if our router completely failed, I wouldn't know how to re-build it from the ground up (we'd fly in a true network admin from Corporate).

Like someone else said before me, don't get hung up on titles. As long as you like your job, are happy with your pay, and know your good, then the title is meaningless.

Regards

by hmemplyd

Titles suppose to communicate to people what exactly someone is doing. In that sense it is important to know the difference. We need to educate people on this so that they will have the right expectation toward either a net admin or system engineer.

Thanx Martin, now I know the difference. I guess I won't be barking the wrong tree the next time.

by tom_elkins

If you are an MCSE the only thing you can claim is that you have contributed to BillG
profits.

by mccjan

In my company, system engineers build servers and maintain them. A guy I met in a class is a system engineer from another company, he does Unix system level programming.

by tomsal

I've been in the IT field for many years - unfortunately for me I've only been getting PAID for it for the last 6. I have an MCSE cert and I may be going in the path of CCNA in the not too distant future (I've already read all the courseware). Note:Don't get the wrong idea - I have WORKED with the hardware for years before even picking up a CCNA book. I also have two college degrees in the IT field as well.

I think nearly everyone here, with a few exceptions, are too uptight and anal. Firstoff, a certification is not WHO you are or (surprise surprise) WHAT you know...it means you passed some tests and earned recognition for following a standard. That's all it means. If someone really gets uptight and links someone's alphabet soup of certs to what they do - I think its the person who is uptight that is ill-informed and needs to go back to school.

My title here is officially "System Engineer", but I handle all aspects of IT - except software development (which we have professional programmers for). I've attended many CISCO workshop courses and seminars, put in countless hours of playing with CISCO switches and routers. Now based on your theory here, which seemingly judges someone based on them having an MCSE cert - you'd say that I don't know anything about networking and I have no right to even imply network administration skills.

I don't even use my alphabet soup next to my name when I talk to business contacts, its not on any of my correspondence. In fact, exceptfor my co-workers no one has a clue that I'm certified at all.

Certs are just self-assessment tools There are two people in the IT world and only two people : Those that know and those that are soon unemployed. If you know , just do your thing man - don't worry the true "paper people" will find out soon enough the hard facts of the real IT world.

Semantics. Egos. That's all these posts are about. Trivial.

later.

by mmatos

I could not have said it any better. I am glad to see that someone has a clue.

by ryan.rossman

Hi folks....
I have been in the IT field for.. well more years than I care to admit (anyone remeber the system 36 or 38?). I hold a heck of a lot of certification including an MCSE. As I looked outward to hire people the class of MCSEs I saw wereno more than paper trained with less ability than brains.

In the end an MCSE doesn't rep the System of Network administration as much as the Ego that rides with it!

MCSE=Must Call Somone Else!

by kima

It's not about a certification or a title, it's all about the person.

I've have trained end-users and I was asked to trained MCSE even though I wasn't certified, I turned down because I'm not a copy cat I have my ways of training my end-users.What I did notice on class was that most of the people where even reading their books, they were more into learning the summary that the teacher was providing them with and they were only thinking about how much $$$ they could make.

I myself have 3 years hands-on experience I could get a job because I didn't have a certification, which I find stupid. Anyway, I got a job doing construction and within one month I've been put in charge of the Project Administration of Funds for it. They know I know what I do, but employees are still prefer a certification more than experience. I had a conversation with a volunteer who happen to be a Network Engineer and after our conversation he admitted that I new more than a MCSE person working with him earning $125,000.00 for playing games all day as he said. It is unfortunate that my skills were overlooked because of a piece of paper.

Now when I started something different, I have a wide door of opportunities open up for me. I'll be taking care of the administration for the project which includes AR/AP,Administration & Payroll, set-up their LAN network & design their website..

It's is too bad for employeer who overlooked qualified people for people that are just concern about $$$ anddon't care about taking the time to learn more... I have no BA or certifications, but I have hands-on experience and excellent references which they overlook...

In the technical field you have to continously learn new things, not just read a book, pass a test and that's all... there is more than just the OS.. there is hardware, topology, security issues,etc..
Kima

by admin

You are right whether or not the industry recognizes it. I do both, but I sure enjoy the networking more than providing excellent customer service to end users.

My personal experience points to those who have no idea of what we really do (especially in networking- it's less visible) being responsible for hiring people.

I gave up long ago trying to educate everybody in HR, Directors Team etc. on how it's really done. Generally, all they see is all they see -like a child stuck on the developmental stage that let's them know the ball IS still behind the curtain after it's closed.

by admin

I too would love to see some real network content here. Usually terms commonly misused like "hacker" (as in the idiotic popular sense) start to arise when it appears in depth. (I'm not talking about "how do I network from home" or "HELP!-Please explain TCP/IP and Subnets!" sorts of discussions.

For some strange reason I have noticed that among the computer literate (especially the somewhat computer literate) when people start talking about networking on a deep level everyone gets scared and thinks that if you have any of this knowledge you will exploit it and harm others.

For instance, I find it interesting and of some concern that people here gleefully slam Steve Gibson, who certainly is interested deeply in networking and has beena great help to me in my job a number of times over the years. I also hear "Script Kiddies" dismissed and made fun of while they are often the ones who are at the leading edge of knowing (at least the ones who delve into understanding it) the current edge of networking.
You mentioned MSCE's. I think Microsoft may be trying to actually KEEP people from really learning and understanding networking. A job which the government may intervene in and do as well. It's really unfortunate that people are so scared of networking. Please start discussions on this rich topic. I certainly, for one, am constantly learning about the possibilities of interconnectedness and wish to learn more.

:>

by tomsal

To imply that Microsoft (and in effect the government) is trying to prevent people from learning real networking skills out of being scared is one of the more ridiculous claims I've read in a couple weeks.

I think the intense hatred of Microsoft by hordes of people (indeed millions upon millions) is more than a little to blame for this utter disdain of the once heralded MCSE certification.

Cracking security measures, I'll have you know by the way, is closer to an artform than just mere networking knowledge. Of course this statement assumes you are dealing with a "REAL" security system and not some sloppy basic rinky dinky system put together by a college intern who just finished reading a book about hacking. Of course networking knowledge - how routers, switches, NOSes, bridges, ATMs, T1s, etc. - how all that technology works is very important. But even if you are "the god of networking" it still doesn't mean you'll be able to crack a well designed security infrastructure. (Forone Network Security Analysts themselves already know as much about networking as 80% of all decent network administrators do - the good ones could teach a net admin a thing or too).

This topic is so amusing to me - nearly all the posts on here thus far are from people claiming to be network professionals but your cries of redemption can't be heard over the loudness of your egos.

How do you people fit through standard doorways? ;)

later.

by jabbott

I don't understand why people can't just get over themselves and do what they're paid to do! Besides, how can people with such huge egos not realize that it doesn't come across too well when their spelling sucks! :-)

by lordinfidel

While I agree with your MS assesment. We all need to stop blaming them for everything.

I mean it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if you want to learn hardcore networking, you don't look to microshaft. You go to vendors like Cisco.

But I disagree with the ego tripping.
I was'nt trying to toot my own horn and strut my ego around.

The only reasons I stated what I do is just to say hey, the job title isn't everything. When people ask me what I do, I don't tell them that I am a MCSE. I tell them I am an IT professional. I can never explain my job to them anyways, as I am sure you can't explain yours to the layman without grabbing for words that they can understand.

My only peeve is when someone calls themselves a net admin or a sys admin or even a IT pro, and they can't even build a system. I also have the same disdain for paper MCSE's and it's starting to grow for paper CCNA's. (The people who went to boot camp but can't route 2 subnets together).There are many, many, many, people out there who's networking skills far surpass mine. I am astounded everyday by how little I actually know.

But that is the beauty of IT. There is just so much Information out there, that it is inpossible to learn it all. Plus there is no black or white areas. You can't just know systems without knowing hardware. You can't just know security without knowing networking. You can't just know networking without having a knowledge of systems.

It all flows together. That was my point.

by admin

On a message board, interestingly enough, it's very easy to see the projections of people onto others that are oftentimes not accurate (funny thing about psychological projection...) Essentially, you are the one building your own ego when you cry: "the loudness of your egos"

I don't hate MS, I just know that they change their version of networking to fit their needs. One of their needs is to not easily be compromised and one viable way of doing this is being used by trying to keep knowledge away from most people. This is essentially their problem with OS and a host of other things. They not only admit this, but actively encourage our government to pass legislation to serve this interest. It is natural. I don't think it's bad.

Your comment: "Cracking security measures, I'll have you know by the way, is closer to an artform than just mere networking knowledge. " belies your lack of knowledge in this area. Cracking and networking are science, not art or magic.

I do agree that: "Network Security Analysts themselves already know as much about networking as 80% of all decent network administrators do - the good ones could teach a net admin a thing or too" and hope that they start posting on this topic here too.

I find it interesting that you, who in a former conversation thought spoofing was the same as changing ip address through a web anonymizer proggy (well, after I asked you you did say it was a sort of "reverse spoofing" a term I've never heard b4 or since and still don't understand) are now claiming to know so much about networking and security. I wish I did. But I don't really know a lot about it and wish to find out more, hopefully through posts here.

To answer your last ? I generally open the door first, and then find I can just walk through.

by baba6

I hear you on the system admin being more than anyone with a MCSE. All i can say is stop being so uptight man. Relax, as long as you get paid well for being a system admin and a guy with a MCSE gets paid less, just calm down. Thats the difference...partner.

by bert57

I too have seen the trouble people have in telling the difference between the two jobs.
When first getting into the IT field I had to research the difference and decide which way to go.
I took the SYSTEM ADMIN route, I deal with applications, users, PC's and in a small way networks.
I must know network basics of course for this position but I don't have to get into the heavy stuff.
In the company I work for I am part of the PC and network operations group. I do the PC side and we have one man that does the network side. We do cross train to back each other up but still concentrate on our choosen specialties.

by utken

I recently graduated with IT degree, not MCSE certified and am working for a small/medium company. being the only person taking care of a 50-user LAN makes me the "all-in-one" person. People expect you to know everything, from networking, system administration, software, hardware...(and you can't expect the employer to hire seperate network or system experts for such a small operation) I don't even know what my actual title is. All I can tell people is that I'm a IT person (perhaps a PC support?) and I'm still learning and hoping one day I would figure out which route to choose: network or system...I don't actually care what I'm called, my knowledge will certainly worth more than my title (hopefully) ^_^

by lordinfidel

Since you are still new to the IT field, don't be hung up yet on routes.

Learn as much as you can in as many areas as you can.

I would opt for the all-around person.
Hardware
Systems (win, linux)
Networking (tcp/ip, routing, dns)
Security (both win and linux based)
Basic Scripting (perl, html, asp)
Web services (IIS, apache)
Mail Exchangers (exchange, sendmail)

Be as broad as possible to start. But start in a logical order. Don't try to learn security before you learn tcp/ip and it's various protocols.

Just my advice

by abrar hazarika

same is the case with me too. i work in a co. for 25 user LAN and am all-in-one guy.
people expect me to take care of everything.
choosing between sys admin and network admin i have decided to go the networking 'cisco' way.
dealing with users allthe time is not very easy thing, and the worst thing is that the users tweak and seem to know everything until something goes wrong. though this is not the sole reason for me to switch over to networking cos network interests me a lot.

by douglas.osowski

Martin:

It looks to me that you are offended by some one that has an MCSE? Are judging all people with MCSE because of one person? I am not offended by your opinion but I feel that you could act more maturely and professional by not slamming people that are associated with this certification. Do you have experience with human resources? In order for your opinion to carry weight you should have some experience with this area. Your opinion would also carry more weight if it did not have so many miss spelled words.

by jkelly

I would say that you should be considered a Network ENGINEER if you are working with network hardware and designing network architecture. Most Network Engineers that I have come across do not like to be referred to as a net admin. In a lot of smaller companies, yes the net admin may take on some reponsibilities for the hw (hubs, routers, switches, etc) but usually a Network Engineer designed the network originally

by epepke

Of course, you're right. Engineer is one of those "look how important my job is" words. So is "professional."

Anybody remember "domestic engineers" and "sanitation engineers"?

by tomsal

Ahh yes, I remember my first engineering position. I was a Petroleum Engineer for Texaco....yeah, I miss those teenager days.

lol.

by mitch garvis, q.c.t.

Would you believe that here in Canada, the Canadian Order of Engineers is suing Microsoft to stop using the term Engineer? It seems they have it copywritten or trademarker or whatnot.

I think frankly that Network Administrator is more than an MCSE, but frankly, it is what I do, and I don't even have that cert yet.

Reading back to the original message about routers and switches and Cisco and the such, I think that what is described is more a Network Engineer than a Network Administrator. I could never build what is described but frankly, with my knowledge I am certainly qualified to ADMINISTRATE it.

Though I am the network administrator for my company, when asked I generally say Systems Analyst, because frankly I am more than an administrator, and not really an engineer, and certainly not a network engineer.

Hats off to the network folks... When I do get my MCSE, I'll call myself a Systems Engineer but not becuase some network guru is offended.

Mitch

by jklein

I refer to my job as computer guy. mycoworkers call me the computer geek. I dont care what people call me as long as I am making more $$$$ than they are.

by zen37

First of all, after scanning my original message through a spell check, I found only one miss spelled word. All others were typos. I tend to type too fast and omit to double check. I apologize for the mistakes and promise to be more careful in the future.

Second of all, if you read the comment carefully, you will notice that I am asking for your opinion on the subject so I can see if I?m off track or not. Douglas, if that's not mature and professional, what is?

I told my opinion and asked if you agreed. Either you do or you don't for such and such a reason. That's all I asked. There is nothing personal here. No ego trip. If this was a personal issue, I would not of brought it up here. I would of brought it up to my boss.
Network admin is not even my title, Telecommunication analyst is (the word "Engineer" cannot be used in Canada unless you are a genuine, university graduate, Engineer (and I agree with that)).

I don't like the fact that people pass judgment on my intelligence or professionalism on this mere comment. None of you know me personally, just as I don't know you either. Lets remember that and keep it civil, shall we.

I personally know a couple of MCSEs who are very qualified and knowledgeable in Windows systems. I do not wish to degrade the MSCEs with this comment.

by lordinfidel

The one thing I have noticed on this boad as well as others, is that anytime the MCSE is mentioned it sends people off into some mental derangement.

I hope you read my first response to you.

It all boils down to loosely defined definitions (isthat correct?, aww who cares)

The point being An MCSE alone does not make you a network engineer/admin. (not so sure I agree with the canadian definition, engineer is a broad term, "I engineered the whole scenario") Again just symantics.

But having just that cert does not not make you an admin. (deliberate use of double not)

As far as typos, "People, we all make typing mistakes, deal with it. God knows I can't spell inconvienince (i know it's mispelled) w/o using my spell checker." Who care's.

These are postings/debates. Not legally binding docs.

by crypt01inguist

Why do you think I'll give any weight to the words of someone who isn't even competant enough to run a spellchecker? Are you in a race to get your deeply insightful messages out to the masses?

Here's a clue: When people CANNOT see you, but only your words, then spelling/grammer/punctuation are MORE important, not less. You have no other way to get our attention, and no faster way to lose credibility.

You may have the best idea, the catchiest phrase, but who's going to bother reading your tortured prose?

If you care, try spending a little time on the little things.

by joe

I am CCNA, CCNP and a few other certifications and own a small computer company and what my customers refer to me as is moot, as long as they pay me my worth. I am usually refered to as the computer guy, or the guy who looks after our computer stuff. I am network Administrator and a systems administrator and I am also the "computer guy". If you get hung up on what people refer to you as will give you more heartburn and headaches than anyone needs, I know what I do and thats all that matters. What others see me as is not that important as Long as I see the money. I was a Network Administrator for a Large Canadian bank and I was still refered to by most as the "computer guy", so who really cares, I don't get hung up on titles, I get hung up on my pay ..........

by jack_swayze

Not having the capability to 'build a system' isn't an indication that a person is lying, or deluded, when they call themselves an IT Pro.

I have been, and will continue to be, an IT pro. Have been for over 20 yrs.

Not all of IT is hardware... unless you call what I do 'IS' and your definition of IT is nothing but hardware stuff.

by jcatanich

Having an MCSE does not make you a sys admin or a net admin or anything else. Just like a CCNA or CCNP does not make you a net eng or anything else. It means that you have that cert.

I work for a Fortune 500 company in the web hosting department.My title is systems analyst. My department DESIGNED and SUPPORTS the network infrastructure in the web hosting center. OS, server hardware, applications, PIXs, LocalDirectors, Content Swtiches, Catalysts and some 7200 and 2500 routers as well.

Here are my definitions in general:

Admin - maintain the software/equipment with occaisonal upgrades/modifications

Engineer - design the system whether it is hardware, software, or both

There are issues to get worked up about. This is not one of them. Would hate to see you in a real crisis.

by lordinfidel

Let me put it back into context for you.

No matter how you look at IT pro's, we ALL have to know basic hardware, regardless of what we do or how long we have been in the buis.

If you are a programmer then you are a Programmer!, Not an IT professional

If you are a Web designer, then you are a Web designer, Not an IT Professional!

If you only know how to fix hardware, then you are a computer repairman, Not an IT Professional!

Your right, not all of it is hardware. But software andOS' have to run on something. If you do not understand the basic sublayer that these apps ride on, much less have the ability to troubleshoot and fix them. Then you have no buisess calling yourself an IT pro much less a Net Admin.

Then Yes, I seriously doubt a persons ability as a IT pro and would not hire them.

You do not have to be a hardware "Junkie". But you damn well better know how to fix it on your own when the need arises.

Just being a Hardware guy alone does not make you a IT pro. As I have stated before many times, it is a wide combination of skills that makes an IT professional.

The jist is; Net Admin's, Sys Admins, Engineers are generally Highly skilled individuals. It saddens/angers me when someone labels themself as such, but they can not perform basic tasks, like build a server or even a desktop.

That is my point.

by jack_swayze

I am a professional (I get paid for what I do) and I work in IT, and I have worked in IT departments in more than 8 shops, and for more than 20 yrs.

What I do is create data models, and I have, recently, been a 'data quality administrator' with some of the responsibilities of a DBA.

As I work in an IT department, and am a professional, I will continue to refer to myself as an IT professional.

by epepke

That is, I don't know what it means, but the field was limited to 40 characters.

Either it's someone who gets paid for doing IT (the post-1930 meaning of professional) or it's someone who does IT and is also a lawyer, physician, or priest (the pre-1930 meaning of professional).

I don't even know what IT means. Mostly it seems to mean data processing, sometimes computer science, and sometimes computer engineering. If people use IT to mean what the Europeans mean by "Informatics," then itmeans everything, and I don't know what it means to say that someone is not in IT.

by epepke

That's like engineering, right?

I was confused about the term for a while. When people told me that they built systems, I'd start talking about the time I built a little 1802 computer as a kid, or the time I used first a chain of 555 timers and then a Motorola microcontroller to get high-resolution data out of a Power Glove, or the time I overclocked the video board of a computer with 65536 SIMD processors, and I'd get blank stares.

Eventually I figured out that "building a system" meant "putting some boards into a box."

by admin

System building these days can mean a lot of different things and it certainly can be easier than a good lego project these days :>

by lordinfidel

I guess everyone's definitions are a little different from this.

There is a difference between "Technincally" building a system, like being a hardware engineer who can build his own MB.

When I say build a system, I basically mean
being able to get your own parts, build it, put the os on, harden it if necessary, connect it to your network and go.

It's not as glamorous and cool as being able to go to radioshack, buy the components you need and Voila you just built yourself a supercomputer. (-; (Please don't someone post and correct me about the terms, it was only meant for dramatics).

I do wish at times that I was able to do it. It would be pretty cool.

But the original point that I was trying to make was that there are ManyMany Many people out there, who call themselves Net Admins and It Pro's that can't perform the simple hardware tasks.

I follow the same basic doctrine that the Militiary has (i.e army, which I spent 6 years in), which is. No matter what your jobis, regardless of your rank, you are a soldier at the core. Being a soldier is their foundation.

Which when I translate that over to computing. No matter what job function you do. You need to have that basic foundation. And since the basic foundation that all of our cool apps run on is hardware. Then we all need to know the basics of it. Just like a soldier needs to know how to fire their weapon.

The only stare you'll get here, is one of "wow, thats cool", wish I could do it.

by epepke

I've noticed that very few people really seem to grok both the hardware and the software. I grok both probably only because I started off as a kid doing digital electronics, first with telephone relays, then neon bulbs, then with Motorola HEP components. (I was gratified to learn recently that Maulkey also started off with neon bulbs as a kid. Neon bulbs are probably the best kept secret in the realm of magical devices.)

Because of this, though, at first, it was hard for me to grok software. The conceptual gulf from gates to COBOL is pretty big.

I think it's easier, though, than going the other way--from software to hardware. To be good at software, you have to train yourself not to think about some things, because it's usually too much to think about. This training gets in the way of learning too much about hardware.

If you really want to hack this stuff, though, a good way to start is to get the 68HC11 evaluation kit from Motorola. It costs only about a hundred bucks, and educational institutions can get it free.

by format c:

I like that doctrine you have there. But I think there is a next level. Apps run on hardware, the hardware talks to each other by means of a network, Hubs/Switches routers, cables.

Just my thought.......

by kevinreports

MCSE's could be Network Managers or Administrators it all depends on where you are coming from. They do not just handle System Administrator tasks.

Suggestion to the author of this article, spell and grammar check your postings before finalizing. Nothing eats at my nerves more than somebody who posts or sends stuff without proofing them first.

Kevin Mason, MCSE

by klingon

First of all, MCSE is simply the name of a certification. Network Administrator is a Job Title. Kinda different. Are you saying that because I have my MCSE I should require my employer to change my job title? Why? I am the network administrator, that means I run all aspects of the network. Who gives a rat's ass about my certification? I have a BA in Computer Science - does that mean I should call myself a scientist?

You say, "A network administrator is someone who deals in networks." Genius.Simply genius. Thanks for clarifying that!! I would've never guessed! "He" There are females in this line of work as well, in case you've been stuck in your closet for too long. "deals in switches, routers, protocols, ports, access, firewalls, load balancing, etc." I'm sorry, but I think you forgot one very important part of any network, and a big role in a NetAdmin's job - END USERS. "That kind of stuff you don't learn from Microsoft, Novell or whatever. You learn it from Cisco, Nortel, Checkpoint, NAI, Radware." Really? And does Cisco or anyone else teach you to satisfy the needs of the end users? Or is a netadmin above a lowly SysAdmin who should have to deal with that sort of stuff? I'm MS Certified (lah dee freakin dah), and I've donea lot of work with Cisco switches, routers, load balancers and firewalls, as well. You can't honestly believe that a NetAdmin should only be responsible for those components of the network. What about the servers, printers, the dead monitors, the running of cable, building racks, and, the wonderful phone system.

I take offense to your informing me of what a "real" netadmin does. To me, being the Network Adminstrator is like being the jack-of-all-trades, not stuck in the isolated world of command lines and proper syntax.

Perhaps you should consider a career change - Custodian perhaps? At least there would be no confusion as to your responsibilities.

Klingon

by zen37

Well, i see the blood still boils in your veins.

I did not mean to offend anyone with this post, but obviously I hit a sensitive nerve in some of you. But if you would read the post correctly, you would of noticed that i was asking for opinions,not "informing you of what a "real" netadmin does".

And you obviously missed the part about being polite. Sorry dude, but nothing i said deserves the language you used in your reply. It is so easy to say these things when the person is not actually in front of you, consuming your contempt.

You disagree, that's fine. You're in title to your opinion as am i. Albeit, my opinion has been obviously misconstrued by some.

Q'apla

by klingon

You did tell us what a "real" netadmin does. A quote from your original post:

"I'm CCNA, Shiva (now Intel) certified, working on NAI and Radware. That's what a "real" network administrator does."

You're just as guilty of assiging job descriptions to job titles as the people you were complaining about in the first place.

That's why my blood was boiling. Sorry if "piss" and the image of a "rat's ass" offended you.

Klingon
:^)

by info

I'll have to agree with you, Klingon.

Many of the 'paper techs' out there get caught up in what their classification is in the IT food chain and tend to lose sight of their objectives. I have colleagues whom are MCSEs and feel it's their God-given right to have the ground they walk upon be declared sacred. Myself being a BSCS graduate don't hold it against people who mistakenly confuse BS with BA. You don't see trash collectors getting pissed off for being called "sanitation engineers". So to all those paper techs out there, "Don't worry, be happy!"

by admin

Hey Zen,

I realized after re-reading your original and then l8ter explanatory post- (oh, if people can't get over spelling, F*ck 'em, no "later" doesn't have an "8" in it- DUH for those listening over the edges of the coffee table...) -that possibly the idea minus the anger may have been trying to get at the fact that an MSCE does not by itself make you a netadmin, but that those mainly outside this industry (and apparantly some in it) think that it is a blanket catch all do all cert.

This does not negate that a netadmin can have an MSCE nor does it bar an MSCE from being a net admin. They are two different things. One does not preclude the other. I interpreted your post to mean this, and that your exception was to people that can't see the difference between the two. I think that this is a social problem in the digital revolution personally.

by admin

Where I believe this is frustrating is in cases such as when you go in to design a system and the bosses unemployed nephew wants to help since he got out of New Shadows Tech Institute with an MSCE a year ago and needs to gain some experience. Joe Blow on the street (even if he is the owner of ABC Med Supplies) thinks somehow that he is now qualified to do this. Well, he is not by the sole virtue of having acquired this, although he may have learned it on his own through other means and be a great asset. Still, you are expected to work with him if he doesn't have these skillz (<= oops! Mis-spelled word!) and there is something wrong with you if you find it difficult so thanks a lot for the new employee HR. Now I'm still doing all the work plus fixing someone elses.

I used to think this was because they didn't understand the difference, but now I am under the impression that they prefer networking to remain "magic" and an "artform" that they would rather not know about, but love the cute way the system guy helps them restore their toolbar.

Even if there were a definitive object cert for netadmin, I wonder how much it would really be valued.

Sometimes the network seems akin to the sewer worker. Everything goes to hell without it, but no one seems to really want to know how it really works.

by zen37

Thanks for understanding what i meant. I must admit that the biggest lessons I will get out of this is;
1. Don't post discussions and
2. if you do, be very very careful how you do it.

;-)

by abrar hazarika

cheers for you mmorell

its a very authentic, rational, practical, straight from the heart post i have found, unlike others who are trying to blow their own trumpets.

by weluvm$?

Whilst I would agree that there is a difference, I would make one comment: -

The qualifications (MSCE, CNE etc.) are all but worthless now......

Sounds harsh, and I'm certainly not levelling anything at you, but 'qualified' engineers are now 10 a penny. Why? Because training companies (and MS, Novell etc.) have profited by making these commodities. The fact that, for example an undertaker can study, take an exam and be qualified without ever having touched a computer does not mean he is going to be any good!

Whilst they do have a (diminishing) value, you will never beat aptitude, attitude and experience........

P.S. No offence to undertakers!!!!!

by epepke

What with engineers, I got to thinking about engines. In physics, an engine is something that does work by getting rid of differences. A heat engine, for example, does work based on a difference in temperature. (The efficiency of the engine, incidentally, can be determined exclusively by the two temperatures.) After the engine gets the work out, though, there is no more difference between the temperatures, and the fun's over. To keep the engine running, you have to keep the hot side hot (which burns fuel) and the cold side cold (which requires disposing of waste heat). As the entire universe stabilizes to the same temperature, you eventually can't do either any more.

Certificates can be seen as a kind of credential engine. Using the difference between the perception of an "engineer" and just a geek, they did work, i.e. getting people jobs. However, this is only at the expense of lowering the perceptions of engineering to the point where the certification game is losing its effectiveness.

Perhaps it won't be too long before we start seeing titles like PhD in Torx Wrench with a specialty in #9.

by corpitdirector

As Director of Corporate I.T. for a national healthcare provider, I've "been there and done that" as far as titles and job descriptions go. In the support arena, your title usually has very little to do with what your actual work entails. My advice to you is that if you want your career to progress beyond support and into management you had better work on your english skills.

by ebob

This discussion is not the first time, nor will it likely be the last time, that we get embroiled in some stupid a** discussion about the value (or not) of certifications. I am sure that most of us go away just shaking our heads, for a hundred different reasons.

I for one, wonder how any of us (an I am no exception) get so damn "serious" sometimes.

Here's a comical example. I was taking an online course about a year ago. The online registration system used SMTP, and therefore picked up my".sig" file. In part this reads:

(my name), BS, MS, PH&D, BMF, SOB

Please note: that's BS, not BSc; it's PH&D, not PhD, etc.

Of course, at least one of my virtual classmates read it all wrong and nearly choked on his (primary) sphincter muttering about how he "could lay down a whole alphabet soup after his name, TOO".

Jeeeezzzziz jump-up and kiss me!

by ebob

That alphabet soup is a spin on a Cheech & Chong routine: Let's Make A Dope Deal!

BS: we all know what that is
MS: is just More of the Same
PH&D: Piled Higher and Deeper
BMF: Big (or Bad) Mother
SOB: Son Of a Gun (or something like that...)

by format c:

I've spoken to egotistical 'MCSE's' who say they have built x amout of networks. When I ask them 'oh what networking kit did they use', e.g 3com, CISCO...', they say 'I installed the servers, not the network' - err hello!

by ebob

Or perhaps what you meant to express was that Sys Admin activities are generally not the same as Net Admin activities.

Of course, these are often done by the same people. These people may or may not have any form of certifications relavant to these activities.

I share your view that it is very frustrating when "the general population" continues to confuse the activities of Net and Sys Admins. For that matter, the DB Admins and everybody else in our general field are constantly getting lumped together. "Oh, you're in IT. My neighbour has a 12 year old who knows EVERYTHING about computers. Blah-blah-blah..."

I often think telling people I am in IT is like somebody saying they're "in the Automobile field". The difference being that most people know that this can mean almost anything. The person might be a dreaded used car sales person, a pump jockey at the local pay & go, or the Chairman of Honda. But we say we're "in IT", and to the average citizen, the subtle differences between Net/Sys/DB/Etc. admin/engineer/analyst/manager is just so much background noise.

Frustrating? Have you ever (as a Net Admin, for example) had somebody come up to you for help writing a macro in Quattro Pro? Of course, you explain that you don'tdo that, or youi don't know squat about QP, or whatever, and the look that comes out their face: "But you're in IT, and you don't know about MY PROBLEM? You must be incompetent."

by schrodingers cat

This whole thing about titles is quite meaningless. I followed a discussion a while back where people who were academically and technically qualified as 'Engineers' were getting uptight and complaining bitterly about the way MCSE described the bearer of the certificate as an 'Engineer'. They whinged and moaned about how they had studied for years to acquire this 'status' and why should someone who had passed a few tests be afforded the same title? The fact was lost on them that here in the UK, particularly at the turn of the 20th Century, steam train drivers held the same status of 'Engineer'!...I wonder how many of them were electronic 'engineers'. Seems to me people have too much time to worry and complain about trivial things. If it bothers them that much then perhaps they should get another job where they won't feel so intimidated by a bunch of letters joined together

by ebob

OK, some text, just because TR requires it!

"not dead"! I laughed out loud!

Get it kidz?

by epepke

I don't know; based on my past experience with TechRepublic, even the existence of this thread is an uncollapsed wavefunction. Tomorrow I may come and find that not only are the replies gone, but they were never present in the first place.

by tomsal

First off, I remember the spoofing post we shared back and forth. I also remember never stating that I was either a security guru or that the software I pointed you to was, indeed a spoofer, I said its like spoofing, as what the program itself advertises. Please don't post on a public forum putting words in my mouth. That's what someone gets for trying to help you? I know quite well what spoofing is sir. The term reverse spoofing is something I made up to describe in layman terms, it is not an official term (nor did I EVER imply or say that it was).

My ego? Ironies run wild in your defensive post of slanderous attacks with false accusations. I'm actually one who believes in modesty, unless someone really pushes you and then you have toturn on the attitude a bit. Furthermore, I'll teach anyone anything I know if they show a valid interest in learning and they deserve the investment of my time. And as far as *I* define ego, its kinda like bragging....if its the truth its not ego (or bragging).

Cracking is an artform - it does use some science mind you, but the reason I said what I said is because I know some Security Analysts and I have a few friends who have been cracking systems (all legally btw and for security audit reasons) for quite some time. I can't crack high end systems, only small operations. I've seen this folks work and trust me - its definitely an art to see these guy do their stuff. Also, cracking involves methodical guesswork at some points..science is finite, How do you classify anything with guessing as pure science. (Oh my bad, you were probably saying its all science because YOU don't have a clue yourself - have you ever cracked a system? Have you ever talked those who do for a living? Its far more than science)

Very professional post. I often think those that take such offense are those that hide their own flaws. Oh well.

later.

by pmercer

For posting something that generated such an entertaining response! I have smiled, snorted, and even laughed while reading all of these posts.

Although the commentary was harsh at times, and may make you hesitant to post in the future, I think that is what makes the most interesting reading :-)

I think that having the industry recognize the difference would be valuable . . . anytime we can better define roles so that there is no confusion when talking as group that is a good thing. Whensomeone says they are a Sybase DBA we don't confuse them with an Oracle DBA, or a DA.

I also agree with folks that we shouldn't get hung up on the labels . . . it doesn't really matter what the customers call us as long as they do before they getin over their heads :-)

Thanks for the entertaining post!

by zen37

Although I did try to make my initial message interesting to read so people would do so, I did not expect this.

It is kinda entertaining isn't it.

by format c:

Hey Zen,

At the end of the day, I think this is a bit of a grey area. These days, as mentioned, there isn't really a clear defined role anymore. As IT people we are expected to know LAN/WAN and servers, telephones......the list goes on. I rarely find LAN/WAN people who just do LAN/WAN, and server people who just do servers. I think the average IT person today has a mixture of skills, BUT, has a preference and specialises in that preference. I.e. servers, LAN/WAN.......

You've sure stirred up the bees net! It made my day go quicker yesterday though!!

Nice one! :)

by tomsal

Used to gain access (usually unauthorized) to a network connected computer (usually via the Internet)

Basically you are exploiting known ports, like port 80 for example (default for HTTP traffic). Using various techniques (of which include unconventional tools , and some conventional tools that most (if not all) network admins have) the spoofer proceeds to ID an IP address using a trusted port, once this is done the packet headers are modified so as to create the illusion that the packets are coming from said trusted port.

Obviously you (as the spoofer) would send a message from your computer to the subject computer to confirm messages are getting through on the port that you suspect.

Finally,

Spoofing is a generic term. Spoofing doesn't always mean "IP Spoofing", you can spoof telephone systems too, you can also spoof yourself - I've heard the term used with fake I.D. Spoofing really means "tricking someone/something by falsifying information but making it appear valid".

Finally, what are your ethical reasons, I wonder, to spoof?
;)

by admin

Yes, this is the best defination of spoofing I've heard here and it is very close, if not identical, to the best defs anywhere.

I never said I spoofed anything. Part of my job deals with people who do regularly though, and I need to keep up on it.

If you would have stated this earlier in this manner I would have never brought it up.

As to the other comments in the earlier post - 'nuff said. It's pretty silly to have a "who's ego is bigger war" and that wasn't what I intended. You win.

by tomsal

I must admit you are correct, having any kind of "how big is your ego" contest is juvenile. I don't win. Let's call it a draw - as I am in no contests.

Thank you for posting your response titled "Cool", I appreciate it, and as a professional courtesy I apologize if any of my own remarks struck you as unprofessional.

Take care.

-tom

by admin

and posted too early.... (sounds like a euphemism for something, doesn't it?)

Anyway, Yes. Where do things gain entry into that thing we all seem to know so well (existing) anyway? I'm not really to clear on this.......

It's making it really difficult at present to determine the best way to regain relaying enough for the customers needs (and possibly wants )w/o getting used by spammers again.
The cat hovering is distracting me and yet I don't even know if it is. Still, I assert that I will write regardless! If it comes to naught, so be it! I wonder what games the cat played while waiting for us?

by schrodingers cat

Bugger me! How did we get here? Somewhat off topic, I think you'll agree. All because of a few letters stuck together that makes up my email address. Very much like letters strung together that make up certifications...which brings the whole thread back on topic! Clever eh?
A non physicist friend of mine had the solution to Uncle Erwins paradox. Kick the bloody box! If the cat meows then it's alive...if not then its either dead or not in the box...got fed up waiting and went chasing birds or something. I bet Erwin is turning in his grave wishing he'd thought of it! (And before all you physicists start posting, this is very much tongue in cheek as the act of kicking the box and hearing /not hearing a meep is the observation that causes the superposition of both wave functions into one, making the cat DEFINATELY either alive or dead (or missing)!

by rlevesque

Here Here... its amazing how when employers sometimes see that "MSCE" plastered on one's resume or cover letter, they figure this is the ultimate person to interview and hire. Unfortunately, I have run into too many "book-smart" certificate holders.

I remember having a firm on-site for help, who boasted how all their engineers were certified, yet all they did was come onsite and call Novell tech support. Hell, I could have done that and saved $$$. The same thing when a friend of mine passedher CNA but had to call for help installing a modem because she didn't understand IRQ's.

Don't get me wrong - if someone out there passes their certification, thats great. But being certified doesn't always mean they know more than someone 10 years of actual experience without a piece of paper.

Richard

by hank1958

MCSE's are a dime a dozen and so are CCNA's. That piece of paper only means you went out to the internet and studied all the questions, and had enough money to keep taking those test until you passed. In my 20 years of computer experience, I've never meet or worked with anybody that was certified from Microsoft that a damn thing about computer's. I would hire an individual with 5 years experience over anyone who had every certificate you could get. Nothing and I mean nothing replaces job experience.

by mccjan

I am an ex-MCSE (because it has expired since). I have also found out that the most needed knowledge to do a good job is much, much more than what those exams measure. The exam only measures the basic. The tough world wants more. I have no plan to go out for that kind of certification again.

My company hired me because of the MCSE. The reason is simple: to avoid getting ruled out of tender bids that require participants to have x number of MCSEs or x number of CCIEs. Fortunately my employer knows enough of the difference between paper and experience to look at paper only. On the other hand, that may also mean I don't get to choose not to get certified again.

by zen37

...We don't digest well

;^)

Yes, that is what i wrote, but the word real is in quote for the specific reason to indicate that it's not an absolute. I was just asking to see if people agreed.

Anyways, you apology is accepted AND appreciated.

Good luck to you

Q'apla

by klingon

at anyone who speaks Klingon?

Gotta run..The Batleth Tournament is about to start.

Klingon

by techserf

i am an mcse 2000 and don't consider myself a network admin or a systems admin... YET.
i think to many of us are out there and are told that we will be employable as net admins right after we get certified. i look at it as this: i have a cert thatsays i know some stuff, what job i get and tasks that i perform will determine what i call myself in the future.

by admin

And hear you are now working in the field and getting paid for it :>

Best Regards

by jason arnold

MAN! What is it with you guys. First of all comparing Microsoft to Cisco is apples and oranges.
Second of all is there any other kind of certification besides paper ones?
Third just because you can make 2 computers talk doesnt mean anything. People have been making 2 computers talk for over 50 years. It is when you can implement technology that addresses the needs of a business and in turn makes that business operate more efficiently and profitable is when you become an IT Professional!

by format c:

Who got this, this morning!

Quote:

'TechRepublic: www.techrepublic.com

Presents your
SUPPORT REPUBLIC NETNOTE

<-----------------Advertisement------------>

BECOME THE BEST NETWORK ADMINISTRATOR EVER!

Windows NT/9x/2000, Linux, NetWare... with multiple platforms to
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by bert57

If I read the book and pass a test will I be a "Windows NT/9x/2000, Linux, Netware" Admin?
or Engineer? or computer person?

by weluvm$?

Please do not have blinkered vision. Spoofing should not always be associated with un-ethical or hacking activities. Most major companies employ spoofing for functionality. A clkssic example is using spoof packets to keep an ISDN line open on a WAN link.........

by jaymz_r

I think you have a valid complaint if you break it down into minute technicalities..

The way I see it, and this would be comming from a "systems admin's" perspective:

Most "System Admins" are infact focoused on Operating Systems should it be Windows 2000, Unix, or others. The emphasis is on permissions, GPOs, Security Policies, etc.
But the fact is, we are also trained (at least at the school I attended) in in routers, protocols, hubs, switches, ports, firewalls, and network security.

I think you're undercutting the duties of the system admins. We are incharge of all the things you are, and more..

I will admit, you may have and probably do possess more insight in cisco routers etc.

After all this gibberish, my answer: I don't think it's worth argueing about. I think we, in the biz, would benefit further by fighting those whom obtain the paper MCSE's or CCNA's and don't really possess any knowledge other that the correct answers on the cert tests...

by bert57

I can be the best network administrator EVER!!
That will kook real good on my resume.

by ahevans

I have finished the MCSE course, but I have yet to take the exams because I have been getting hands on experience 1st. I figure after awhile of hands on, I will write them, but just to allow me a bit higher salary. I agree that there are too many "paper people" who can't even tell you what cab files are used for.....get the hands on 1st....let the paper come after.....my two cents.....

by jim

I think taht perhaps you may be over reacting
A WHOLE BUNCH !!!

Unless your actually having issues with potential employers confusing the issue, then there are a whole world of things taht should be more disconcerting to you...but if you want tobe unhappy, your current issues will work as well as anything else....

by jim

I think taht perhaps you may be over reacting
A WHOLE BUNCH !!!

Unless your actually having issues with potential employers confusing the issue, then there are a whole world of things taht should be more disconcerting to you...but if you want tobe unhappy, your current issues will work as well as anything else....

by web_gadget

I am with you on this one. You can call me a Janitor as long as I am making the money and my boss is happy. I have a few certifications, but I dont brag. After I took the classes I felt just as dumb as I did before I took them. Then I studied myass off and took the test and passed the first time "Thank GOD". Then I went out into the field, practiced, played, and made things work and brought home some experience only then did I feel like was coming closer to the term CUSTODIAL ENGINEER.. (Thats the politacally correct name for janitors now-a days.

People need to get over the name calling and get back to the basics. Learn the computer, make it better for the users of your company. Thats what your there for. Peolpe are so concerned about what other people are calling them, they forget the important stuff. Customer Service.. Thats what MS forgot. Now we have all just come to accept Poor customer service. Thanks Bill...

by swordjp1

Whatever else you call yourself or others, try to remember you are just a human being. I am but a lowly Tech Support Engineer,and each day I can recount the # of dues paid after 10 hours of troubleshooting on the phone.
Most people I know with whatever certifications they have are usually pretty good at what they do if they dont worry about what they're called. I find the ones that say "I'm the 'real' one are the ones who seem to be most insecure about how they are percieved.
With all that life has to offer, isn't there more pressing concerns? Like doing whatever it is you do to the best of your ability?
Since coming out of the military (31 years - 17 spent troubleshooting aircraft avionics equipment down to component level, repairing,and flying on the planes I worked on,the name of the game is not what you call yourself, but how satisfied you are with what you do and how well you do it. Be at peace with yourself and continue to do the good job that I assume you do.

by donq

As a software developer I understand little about System and/or Network Administration and read your explanation with great interest. It sounds as though a new (Microsoft) MCSN Certification is in order so the Human Relations folks understand what skills an new IT hire has?? Maybe we would be better off with an entirely NEW set of "generic" certifications based on our understanding of the standards - I think I could go for that!!! There is so much out there for any one individual to Master,much less understand.

by chriswong

MCSE is a cert that does cover designing Windows NT/2000 networks as well as typical administration, and also interoperability with other platforms. That's where the "Engineer" comes from; I think you're kind of missing the keyword in the cert title. MCSEs are supposed to be able to engineer Windows networks, but once that is done and the network is up and running, all that there is to do is administer the systems or network. That's why most MCSEs administer systems and networks. As you mayalready know, Microsoft is launching a new cert track in the near future that is geared toward just administration and will not require design electives. There's no definite title yet, but it might be called something like MCSA (Microsoft CertifiedSystems Administrator), for example.