Computers without software - why not?

"Most of us have licensed copies of XP and Vista lying around,..."

Most of 'us' here at TR are IT professionals. Most of the market for consumer-grade systems are not IT professionals and don't have copies of an OS lying around. They don't know how to install drivers, and if they can't get the NIC running then they can't pull down the other drivers they may need.

The market for systems with no OS is pretty small. It's not worth the vendor's trouble to maintain two inventories and price structures for the same system, one with OS and a minority without.

First question, how many retail versions of XP or valid corporate license keys do you have?

You CANNOT legally use an OEM version of Windows from one computer on a different computer. Every Microsoft OEM license is tied to the original hardware it was sold with or installed on.

As to Windows 7 RC, yes, you can use it for "free". BUT, it expires in less than a year. Then what will you do.

As to why the major computer manufactures do not offer "raw" computers, the market is just too small to be worth the effort.

I remember many years back that Tiger Direct was offering a few computers with no OS. As I recall, the savings were minimal. At the time, the average entry level computer sold for around $750. Without software, the computer sold for between $650 and $700.

Combine the low cost difference with a limited market segment and you have no commercial justification for the market.

Yes, Microsoft does consider a computer sold without an OS to be the same invitation to stealing that the RIAA and movie industry see optical disks as. I have heard "rumors" that Microsoft does try to restrict the ability of it's OEM partners to sell systems without an OS. However, it would not rise to the level of anti-trust unless Microsoft required their partners to install ONLY Microsoft software on systems.

In many retail and commercial activities, it is common for the contracts between suppliers and manufactures or retailers to have restrictions, covenants, non-disclosure and non-compete clauses.

Now, there is at least 1 computer company that will sell you a full system with no OS.

http://www.buyxg.com/

Will sell any system they make without an operating system. But, for the most part, you cannot buy an OS for what they charge to install one.

Chas

they want, with or without a licence. The trouble is it sometimes costs a bit more. The good point is it's a vanilla system for which spare parts are easily attainable, as are upgrades - unlike Dells and HPS etc, not all can be upgraded very few can do more than upgrade the RAM or hard drive.

I recently got a second hand Dell and I can't even get a replacement PSU for it as it's smaller than the one you get for most desktops, a normal desktop PSU is too big by half an inch in each direction and won't fit. That means I can't install a bigger graphics card to get away from the on board one as the better cards require more power than the minimal 220w PSU the Dell comes with - a P4 with a 220w PSU (shakes heard sadly).

Probably sell more of these than computers with no OS.

sold without an OS until about the mid 1990s. Prior to that you bought a computer and bought and OS then either got the shop tech to install it, or got a private tech to install it, or did it yourself.

That stopped when MS did a series of deals with Dell, HP, Compaq, etc. to give them huge discounts if they put MS Windows on the systems before they shipped them from the factory. And that has brought us to where we are now. Dell and co pay MS about a quarter or less of what you pay retail for the same OS.

Of course, without the OS on it, they can't make the extra money from being paid to load all the spyware and trial ware as well.

for advertising purposes, without an OS.

Clones arrived about 6 months after product introduction. I had an Apple clone before Apple won its court case and my IBM was a clone which appeared 3 months after the real thing. The first IBMs came standard without HDDs, that didn't appear until the XT and even then it was an optional extra. Windows was next to non-existant version 1.8 or 1.9 and was pretty useless.You have to remember we're referring to North America, when Australia got Apples and IBMs is not anything I'm aware of but it was probably like Europe which was about 3 - 6 months behind NA.

[i][b]Dawg[/i][/b] ]:)

they have to provide an OS with every computer. That is why OEM's get Windows for dirt cheap (to compared to the rest of us).

However, not all computers need to be Windows, they just need an OS. Most manufacturers want dont want to support other OS's, so they do not give an option. The result -- Vista for (almost)All

Was awkward too, cause all I had was win 98, and only way I could install that was with floppy, and system didn't come with floppy drive.

Also, if they had, say installed XP on the system, they would have found out long before I had to, that the hardware was crap. (long story for another day)

and that's about it.

Imagine "advanced" user who thinks he can install some linux distro on the hardware and thus save some $. But in reality - fails. Believe me - tehre are plenty of them.
Now imagine manufacturers helldesk, that gets hundreds of calls like "Bluetooth (or any other hardware) is not working!" "What OS are you running" "Eeee....Linux...."
Impossible!
Rather install someOS on the hardware, and create support manuals for helldesk. You're running other hardware? Sorry not our support problem...

them. I first came across them back in the 1970s when they were called the CCITT. Whenever you see something like ISO xxxxx it's one. TCP, IP, USB, Firewire are all as per industry standards. Here's a wiki page with some basics and some good links. In another thread I've posted several relevant links but can't be bothered finding them all again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Standards_Organisation

keep saying "Invalid system disc" over and over

Microsoft try to say otherwise, but most consumer laws provide that once you buy the licence you have a legal right to put it on any system you want as long as you only have the software on one system per licence. It can also be sold on to a another party as second hand property, just like a used LP or DVD.

Tiger Direct
New Egg
Either will provide you with everything including a driver CD.
They have been doing that for years.

I ran a small custom computer company for over 20 years, and we always gave our customers a choice of which OS to pre-load, if any. I always split out the cost of the OS so that folks knew what they were paying for. That eliminated all the "I got Windows for free" thinking. We also encouraged customers to "build their own systems" with free workshops to show them how. You'd be amazed at how many customers are willing to give Linux a try once they know how much it costs to purchase MS products. And yes, our computer systems WERE more expensive that name brand systems, but the quality and the local service more than made up the difference.

do to how the manufacturer has to buy license. They typically have to purchase a year in advance all the license that they need for the following year. The deal is they must make a calculated guess at how many license they will need for next year. If they buy more then they need they eat the cost and if they buy less they go to the back of the line and wait to see if they can get volume license for a manufacturer which is dependent on Microsoft having any left and of course they would be at a higher price. So no doubt the manufactures push them on customers because they over order just to prevent going back begging for more. In order to prevent fraud and piracy they are not allowed to make more PC's then they can prove that they sold license but that would include all license.

This does stem from an anti-trust/piracy law from either the late 80's or very early 90's which allowed Microsoft to not only control the market like the above but also forces manufactures to disclose exactly how many PC's they made to prove they were not being a contributer to fraud and piracy.

At least that is how I recall the situation happening.

They are not real standards, ie ANSI ISO DIN etc, because they are closed and can change whenever Microsoft feels the need to change them to gain leverage in the marketplace. Real standards are equally available to all and contolled by independent bodies. Lack of standards in IT is what keeps the customer shafted by a monopoly and mediocre products.

from your area, that's understandable. I've always argued you're better off to select your own system form components and build it from scratch or have a tech you know build it from scratch.

The TRS-80 was more advanced, in that one could write and save assembly language programs to cassette tape.

Both were successfully marketed widely to various markets, including education and business, with the former buying both heavily.

a bunch of parts and instructions on how to assemble them into a working appliance.

There is only so much DIY work that most consumers are both able and willing to do.

And, if it's not been properly tested, it's a pig in a poke.

Burn-in can & and should be done even if box is delivered sans OS.