25 replies
by ansugisalas
And you don't need to accept that everything is relative.
I'm just saying, that if you'll accept that many people treat things as if they are relative, and you adapt your output and your examination of their input to take this into account - then you'll have a lot less trouble.
You said you have a pragmatics-enhancing condition: I put it to you that the pragmatics I talk about is a linguistic term, referring (f.ex.) to "what is actually the intended message of a statement - regardless of the meaning of its parts".
This I think, is part of what you referred to as "intentional distraction".
Pragmatics is implicit, it's indirect, it's non-semantic (having to do with usage, not with the code, i.e. lexicalized meaning).
"Can you reach the salt" is a classic example, it's hardly ever spoken at face value, it's hardly ever [b]a question about the reach of appendages and their relation to the specific position of the addressee and of the salt shaker[/b]...
If you refuse to participate in (compute) similar displacements of trivial semantics, causing more pertinent pragmatic concerns to fall on their asses, then you're causing a disruption of communication.
And causing a disruption of communication is going to be viewed as an unfriendly act.
Which is why you end up in exasperating quarrels with people who'd otherwise be of no particular opposition to your position.
Being undiplomatic is one thing, but playing by undisclosed and completely unconventional rules - that's another.
Some people can accept the undiplomatic. Few can accept idiosyncratic refusal of common-form communication.
by dogknees
If your intent is to demonstrate that people are hiding behind language, then wouldn't it be appropriate to point out that the common use maybe shouldn't be so common?
Are we to simply accept the way people conceal their real beliefs and intentions behind opaque language? Are we not to try and bring them into the light? To make them face the reality of their actions and not permit them to hide behind their weasel-words.
Seems to me that's what everyone should be doing, but aren't. And that is itself something that causes me great frustration. The fact that we turn a blind eye to certain behaviour that is immoral, unethical, or even inhuman is reprehensible.
One final point. I, for one, often don't want a complete answer, just enough clues to solve the puzzle results in far more satisfaction and often in greater understanding. It's what I want others to do, so it's what I do.
by ansugisalas
pragmatic metacoding is intended to communicate; it's a way of communicating several meanings at once, not to hide one meaning behind another. In the case of sarcasm, the face meaning isn't really hiding the true meaning, not if it's done right at least. Sarcasm isn't what I was talking about though, it's a special kind of metatext, unlike pragmatics which is a part of all text.
Can you reach the salt : means to communicate
A: by way of the maxim of relevance - that one is interested in the salt.
B: by way of a circular path - that one:
b1: Feels that having the salt is allowable
b2: Feels that the other has a choice in the matter, that one asks an indulgence - and that one does not make a demand.
Politeness is just one aspect of pragmatics, it's diplomacy and it's self-expression.
Being too polite is impolite, as is being insufficiently polite - meaning:
Every situation prescribes a specific level of politeness; one should not say to one's father "Would Mr. Connors be so kind as to pass me the salt?" - that would *in fact* imply that one has been waiting for him to get the clue already, and that one is now pissed off with him.
Likewise one should not speak to a total stranger, of different social status, of different culture, of vastly different age - in a too familiar way, right off the bat. One need something neutral for that.
Asking that people speak only using semantics: Ok, I challenge you, or any other takers. Provide me with an example of conversation that contains no pragmatic metacode...
by dogknees
>>Likewise one should not speak to a total stranger, ...
Can you give me an example of a "different social status" and why it indicates that someone with that status might deserve to be treated differently to others?
I have some ideas, but I'd like to hear your's.
by dogknees
The mathematician Paul Erdos was given to showing up at a friends house and starting the conversation with something like "Consider an non-negative integer i ,.....
This is certainly a discourse which can be completely without social content. Particularly in the case of Erdos, who was almost completely unaware of social conventions. Lest you assume he was trying to impress, that was the last thing on his mind. All he cared about was the mathematics. Noting else mattered to him. Never married, never had sex, never drank or took drugs, never owned a car or a residence,.....
These people exist. Conversations like this do happen. They are just as much members of our society as any one else.
by dogknees
by ansugisalas
It may or may not surprise you, probably not, but I totally agree.
Another thing about dogknee's statement is, that differences in social status are a bit of an illusion, linguistically. It's about the distances, numetrically - not the "high" and "low".
by dogknees
by tigger_two
There is a reality that proves that your belief- at least from the perspective of current truth- is inaccurate.
A classless society? That would be interesting. I don't know that it would be good.
I doubt that thinking people want to be valued based on the size of their home, the value of their car, or their job title. I seriously doubt that they want to be valued on the size of their bank account.
You say that a classless society *should* be the goal of all societies. Why? Who are you to determine what *should* be the goal for another societal group? What qualifications do you possess that make you the arbiter of this? If you tell me that the reason that you are more qualified than others to determine this is due to advanced education or any other thing, you are introducing a [b]class[/b] distinction... so be careful of how you answer.
Consider this too- you say, [i]"So if someone is acting as though they have some right to be treated better than others, the right thing to do it to burst their bubble. To put them in a situation where they either have to spell out why they think they are superior or to accept that they aren't.[/i] By challenging your thinking, I am simply doing as you suggest. Help me to understand WHY your opinion should be more highly valued (regarded, considered).
As an online persona, my "worth" is based on the value of the posts I make, the years I have invested on the site, possibly my community standing, and how I conduct myself. The same is true for every person here. If the sum of my contribution here is to merely post one and two word responses to discussions, should I be considered to be the intellectual equal of someone who posts thoughtfully and intelligently? How about if I manage to make 300+ posts every month, but the sum of my content is to say, "yeah" or "me too"? Should I be considered the equal of Jason Hiner or Max?
Regardless of how you perceive the perfect society, the raw fact is that we will always be judged by our peers based on the value we bring to the table.
by dogknees
I speak from my personal beliefs which are a combination of my upbringing and of my observation of the world I live in. One of those beliefs is that people should be judged (if at all) by the way they treat others. In particular how they treat others who they don't know and who don't have a direct impact on their well-being. In other words, classic altruism. This is simply what I've come to believe..
Given that belief, my case is simply that this is the appropriate way to determine how to treat others. I'm not going to turn around and intentionally harm those who I disagree with, but neither will I simply ignore behaviour that I believe is not in the best interests of others, or of themselves.
I'm not saying my opinion is more relevant, just that it is as relevant and as valuable as anyone else's. I just try to say it as I see it, and as I get older, I care less about the consequences of saying things that might be contrary to mainstream beliefs where I think these beliefs are harmful to individuals or to the social structures we live within.
Judging others may be an automatic reaction. So what! We don't accept people acting according to many of their base emotional impulses in a modern society. Why should greed and first impressions be any different. Again, I'm not saying we should somehow punish people, but we should try to ensure those that don't act in antisocial ways are rewarded/treated at least as well by our society as those that do.
I really do think most people, not necessarily consciously, feel they are a little superior to those who have less than them. People often act that way, and it's certainly something I've recognised in myself at times. But the point is that having recognised it, I at least try not to think that way and not to treat people differently on this basis. Why would people think they deserve to be treated differently because of the things you own? It's not like our society rewards those who make the greatest contribution with the greatest wealth. That's a large part of the problem as far as I see it. The rewards are not consistent with the contribution. Nor are they consistent with the effort expended.
by nicknielsen
by tigger_two
You are a smart @ss.
I don't know that I could watch Springer without a prefrontal lobotomy. Seriously.
by ansugisalas
has nothing to do with how our collective, our culture, has happened to ease our fear of ambiguity...
Social "classes", once institutionalized, now emergent (as they were before institutionalization, too) are simply a way to reduce the number of people we have to take into account. Remember that our natural state (of only 10000 generations back) included connections with around 100 people, maximum. Even 100 generations ago (when Jesus was around) the majority of people only had to deal with between 10 and 200 people in their lives; the ones who lived in cities did have to be around more people, but they already knew to reduce their social liabilities by disregarding the majority for whatever reasons their culture would allow.
Tribal background, for example, or religious/societal roles...
But how we, as individuals choose to deal with others, is entirely our own choice.
Some people are ass-wholes who treat their "equals" as dirt too, some people are humans, who deal squarely with all comers.
But everybody observes more careful use of language (politeness and other pragmatic means) when dealing with people from a distal social class. That's also taking into account the potentially large gap in sociolect, it's simply a necessity.
You did alright, I guess, as far as the baseline between Tig and Dog went, which didn't go all that far or sophisticatedly, I thought.
They spar, with each one hand behind the back, tentatively.
by ansugisalas
...different classes? ;)
I'm glad if my input in my language was in the ballpark of adequate in your language :)
Tentative is a good idea when dealing with the unknown, though.
by dogknees
>>are simply a way to reduce the number of people we have to take into account.
I guess I feel that by doing this, by ignoring the majority of people we devalue them as individuals. Just because the person is unknown to me doesn't lessen my responsibility to try and ensure I don't harm them or the group to which they belong.
This seems to me to be even more important as our "world shrinks" and our actions can affect those in distant places. The simple fact that our local actions have distant consequences obliges me to consider them. Relying on those "responsible" to look after this for us (politicians,....) is a road to ruin as they seem to be even more self-centred than the average westerner(of which I am one). I find I am regularly embarrassed by the words and actions of our elected representatives as I'm sure many of you are at times.
The fact that thinking and acting in a way that respects all people is certainly hard is true but irrelevant. Most truly worthwhile things are hard and I don't claim to be perfect. But, neither do I subscribe to the dictum that only the perfect can comment. If this was the case, we'd pretty much all be silenced.
This is just the way I feel about it. I can say no more than that.
santee "from the future" - Perhaps rather than hiding one hand, I'm being polite enough to respect the fact that we don't know each other very well, and am trying not to make it personal.
by ansugisalas
You see, we have limited resources at our disposal; if we spread them out equally, over 6 billion people, what's the value to us, of our average "human"?
But if we stop counting after, say, 1000... the average value of our "human" is much higher. It's not to say that we only see as humans the ones in our filing system, it's just that we conflate the strangers into representations of already known types of people.
This process is also largely subconscious...
Now, if it's something a person wants to do, then I do think it's always commendable to rummage through the subconscious assertions, testing them in the light of reason. That is hard, though.
And accepting, on a one-for-one basis, everybody - never resorting to type-sorting or other conflation - I believe that to be a cognitive impossibility. And, engaging in a cognitive impossibility is a surefire way to blindside oneself... a wrong done in the murks of the mind is usually worse than that same wrong done in awareness - in the murks there's no stopping us.
Treating everybody with respect is not the same as not allowing people to cast themselves in a certain mold, nor to disregards the social reality of such molds.
These are completely different things.
by dogknees
For your response. I agree, these things are hard to do, and rummaging through the assertions and assumptions is what I'm really getting at. It's something I've done consciously since my early-mid teens, it's the "norm" to me. My automatic reaction is to assume others do the same and to ask questions and respond based upon this assumption.
I accept that this is not the way most people spend their time, but I've always been about individuality rather than conformity. The differences have always mattered more than the similarities. I've always tried to celebrated difference and assumed tolerance. And I truly believe that if more people did so, we (and they) would all be better off.
Now, I know this in itself a contradiction, I assume you're all the same while also saying you are individuals.
I know there are similarities between people, but it's the differences that make us interesting, not the similarities. At least for me.
What I find frustrating is that the attributes people tend to use when "classifying people"(Doesn't that phrase just sound wrong? Sounds like something done in a processing plant) are often not as clear-cut as they think.
"Racial" differences are often less than the differences within races. The very concept of race as it's generally used is almost meaningless in real physical terms. That's actually kind of good. It means it appears to be virtually impossible to create a pathogen targetted at a particular race.
What all this says to me is that classifying people and assuming the members of said classification have some common ground is often going result in injustice. If that's the case, to me, it's black and white, doing this is a fundamentally bad thing and we should fight our own instinct to do this.
It's not like I don't find myself doing this sort of thing. But, when I do, I try and re-think my beliefs and assumptions, and modify my behaviour. To me, it's about trying to live consciously rather than automatically. I'm sure you know a lot of people who don't think about their actions, they just do the same as yesterday, and if asked why, would struggle to respond. I'm not suggesting these people are stupid or unjust, just that they are not naturally incline to self-analysis or a philosophical view of life. Most are capable of this but for different reasons have learned not to do it.
Perhaps if we can't deal with 6 million individuals justly, we should constrain the effects of our actions to those who we can treat as people rather than categories. As I don't like to assume, the idea that we might need to completely restructure our world is never off the table. It's always an option. Given the way the world (physical and social) is going at the moment, perhaps more people should think this way.
Regarding your comment about limited resources and spreading them thin. "What's the value of the average human being?" Exactly the same as the value of yourself. If you feel valuable, then assume others are as valuable. It sounds simplistic, but if you think about it it's the only reasonable assumption. Perhaps we could also try thinking about how to make our lives better without making other's worse. In other words, we gain only what all gain. That could only be a good thing.
Regards
by ansugisalas
I.e. a God-given betterness of some, over others - i.e. nobility, royalty and the abuse of Christ.
That's some messed up shilt, that - and I don't blame you for disliking it.
The thing is though, that there's also a real need to organize the way-too-many social entities in our lives.
We're not evolved for city living yet, that might take a couple thousand years still, you know.
So, the thing isn't about classes, but about social distance.
If you're a majority ethnicity male for example, then you need to observe certain practices when addressing a minority ethnicity female, for instance.
Practices that are designed both to alleviate potential affront, as well as safeguard against sociolect conflicts : what's a normal form addressing a person in one sociolect may carry strong negative connotations in another (since sociolects use many of the same words, but with different meaning sets and values).
So, that's why I talk about social distance. Same, in many cultures with young to old, or old to young.
by ansugisalas
and still, some people would be offended by that, as (from a normal person) it would carry a truckload of assumptions and assertations about what Erdos considers a human peer... i.e. a person might feel belittled or disregarded as a human, because Erdos did not provide in his addressing them, a place to be that they felt they could fill.
It's about unstated expectations, if they're the wrong kind, that's belittlement or disregard.
Whether or not that was the intent (which of course it was not).
by ansugisalas
for trying to be conscious about what you find yourself doing.
I also liked this bit : [i]"Racial" differences are often less than the differences within races. The very concept of race as it's generally used is almost meaningless in real physical terms. That's actually kind of good. It means it appears to be virtually impossible to create a pathogen targetted at a particular race.[/i]
You're exactly right. We cannot talk about human races (BTW notice how we never speak of "the human species", using instead "the human race"?), instead we could perhaps talk about human genotypes; but if we start on that then we'll find hundreds of protypical human genotypes in europe alone, thousands and thousands within Africa, to say nothing of Asia, and then, in America all the combinations, some of which may have stabilized into new genotypes.
And that's with accounting for a person being of two genotypes or more at once...
And even then, with all that detail, what would be the point? Only in medicine could there be a use for that, identifying which people are more at risk of certain infections f.ex., so that vaccinations can be recommended.
As for the rest, I agree with you, but I strongly warn you not to underestimate the murks of your mind... they're deeper than you are - just like mine are deeper than I.
by jamesrl
by nicknielsen
Simply treat all people, regardless of appearance, the way you would like to be treated. Be polite. Be respectful. Allow them to classify themselves by their behavior. That's the way I was raised, so I find it fairly easy to behave that way.
I get the impression from dogknees' posts that he feels occasionally feels guilty if he has a negative first impression. There's nothing wrong with a negative first impression as long as he doesn't allow that impression to affect his behavior toward that individual. THAT's the hard part.
by tigger_two
Sometimes finding things again is a challenge.
Back when I was dating, I used to very consciously judge a man on how he treated the waiter or waitress. I was generally pretty sure that I didn't want to date someone who was rude to a person in a service role.
I wish I could argue the point re: not ignoring behavior that you believe is not in the best interests of others. When I take an honest look at myself, I find that I can't argue it... because I do it too. When I see someone behaving rudely or inappropriately, I do tend to open my mouth about it.
I really like what you have said regarding people possibly having a sense of superiority over others who have less than they do. I agree that this sense is not likely conscious- although I have known people for whom it is entirely conscious. I wonder if there is a tie here to self esteem in any way- I don't know that I have ever seen myself as having "more" than someone else. I will say that I have seen myself as having something more desirable (in my own opinion). I don't think that has resulted in a sense of superiority, but perhaps self satisfaction.
I agree that society certainly has some things that could be improved. Perhaps, in the process of sharing and challenging ideas, we begin to make some of those improvements.
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