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Am I Nuts?

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by cieio

Closed to new repliesThis discussion is closed. It stays readable, but it takes no new replies.

User Base: 56 Staff/250 (Low Tech) RealEstate Agents, 6 offices within 500 mile radius.
IT Staff: 1
Help Desk: Avg. 3000 minutes/month, cell phone.
Duties: What ever it takes. Replace power supply to VPN Upgrades, Citrix Terminals, Wireless Networks, Security, turn on printers, Programming SQL for central DB app, the whole banana.
Benefits: Company van (I pay the gas), Cell Phone, Internet DSL, Laptop, 1 week vac., no health bennies or anything else.
Years of Serv: 6
Experience: over 20 years.

Issue: Get docked for 1-2 hrs of "off-time" taken every other month or so but never get credit for countless hours of "after hours" work. Legally I know there is "kid time" they must give me but they balk at that. They make me feel like I'll lose my job. The boss just had a new baby. He'll find out soon enough except he can afford a nanny!

Is this normal or am I crazy? The CFO put an "on-line" salary survey in my mailbox recently just to show me how lucky I was but must not have read it because every one of the participants had health benefits and two weeks paid vac. I also pay $14K/year personally. They think they pay me a lot but when you subtract the "after-tax" health costs its low Blue Book. I am asking my question to calibrate my thought life. Maybe I am lucky and I should shut up and put up. I love my job with its wide range of tech but the support drags me away from what I can do to best benefit the company. What do you think?

49 replies

by cieio

6 offices within 50 miles radius.
I pay health costs after tax at $14K/yr.
I must have "fat fingered" the keyboard while expressing myself so passionately. :o)

by jamesrl

You are not getting paid for all the work you are doing....

You are doing the same job, with little or no growth potential - growth in skills, or ability to gain supervisory experience.

You don't get medical benefits.

You don't get any respect - I can tell from the Baby time stuff and the fact you work some time for free.

You don't get 2 weeks - where I am from thats a legal minimum. You need time off to decompress. Heck in my last job if you didn't book all of your 3 or 4 weeks , they made you book it - it was a question of both not carryiong excess vacation on the books and trying to prevent burnout.

You don't get it - its not going to change.

I suggest www.aneliteresume.com - look at some of the samples and start working on that resume.(no affiliation with them, just been to one of their workshops). Start networking with your friends let them know you are looking. Read the ads. You can get a sense from them about conditions, pay etc.

Sorry I don't mean to sound harsh - I am a manager, and if I had treated someone like you are bing treated, I would be ashamed.

James

by haileyan

It sounds to me like they are not treating you legally. You are either salaried or hourly. They cannot pick and choose the best of both.

If you are salaried they cannot dock you for any time. The benefit of being salaried to them is not paying you over-time.

If you are hourly, they absolutely have to pay you for all of those countless hours of over-time. The benefit of being hourly to them is that they can dock you for beig late or taking time off.

I would seek the advice of an attorney specializing in employment law. You might mention to them that it is illegal. They cannot fire you for mentioning this as there are laws against retaliation as well.

by tomsal

First a comment on the author's original post...

Dude, you are nuts! lol....seriously I would of already been looking for another job, my resume would of been circulating, I would of been networking myself with folks I know in the field, even very good friends or family, perhaps even would of called a headhunter. They are abusing you big time, not in a physical sense of course but in the way they are taking advantage.

Now my question....I'm salaried myself. 3 weeks ago I had to leave work early for a doctor's appointment that I really needed to go to and couldn't be rescheduled. All was well and good until the following pay period when I saw on my pay check they deducted 2 hours from my sick time for time I went to the doctors (I returned to work after my appointment by the way). Is that legal in the USA? When I spoke with our HR manager about it she told me that she "must" show a deduction for anything 2 hours or more.

by cieio

No. It is not legal if you are salaried. I've read all the gov't white paper on their website re hourly vs salary. Like one of the replies to my original post, you're either salary (exempt) or they track your time. I'd like to hear their reasoning on that issue. Ask them to show you in the law where they can do that. Maybe they don't know or in my case there are a few who would like nothing better than to see me fail because I get paid more than they.

by fdsudds

My wife works in hr and has told me before that it is not legal for them to dock you if you are salary. They would have to make you hourly and then pay you for all the overtime you have worked there.
I would let them know this. I am in ohio and I am not sure if this is all over or not.

by erding

On your question, I don't think that your employer can actually take sick time away from you for being gone for a couple of hours. That is part of being exempt. In reading labor laws, if you come into work and you have your duties covered, you are full filling your responsibilities for the day. If you are taking a whole day off, then they can require you to use sick/vacation time. If you come in during off hours, they don't give you extra vacation time, do they. It should go both ways.

by a.techno.geek

You know for all of your advice, are you looking for work else where!?

P.S.

I think the respondent is a dudette.

by teacherbb

I had an uncle and 20 years after he had retired the company had to compensate him for his overtime. He did not report it, but someone else did. It came back to haunt the company. It was not a tech industry. It was in Texas.

by tanvic79

Hi Everyone,

I'm from S'pore and I'm not familiar with your employment laws. Personally I feel that even he has won the lawsuit I don't see how anyone can still be comfortable staying on after suing his company since it seems to enjoy his present job.

However I do agree that his a real MISER.

by cristianr

I've been working for my company for roughly 2 years and I'm on salary. I pull off an E-Z 60 hours a week or more without seeing any of the countless hours above 45 applied to my weekly paycheck. It's not worth complaining about, believe me. I suggest going to www.computerjobs.com . I've seen some pretty good job postings that I've recently applied to. Good luck and don't get a stroke!

by pgdkansas

Sounds like they are treating you like a rookie consultant. If you know your worth, and have done the proper networking (poeple contacts) throughout your time there...you should thin about jumping ship. Unless it's your own company...family and happiness are more important than headaches at work. It is also time to sit down with your boss and have a professional discussion about where he sees your position in the next two years. If it doesn't mesh with your goals, and your boss won't budge. Find another job (first) and jump ship.
My Two Cents.

by cieio

You have pinned the prime directive on the head, I think. This was all promted by a recent request for help with Health Insurance which resulted in a hour and a half meeting to reclaim my position. He wanted to "end our relationship" because it was becomming "too costly". Not expecting this response and not having the backup data on similar companies left me no choice at the moment. I was in survival mode. Things have settled down and returned to normal again so I can concentrate on providing for my family, with or without them. I poted my resume as you suggested just to open some doors I may not be able to see in my territory. Thank you for the thoughts. P.S. I have a buddy in Lenexa. Your alias drew my attention. :o)

by sleepin'dawg

Lets see now. Harware guy! Apps guy! OS guy! Database SQL guy! Netwok guy! Secuity guy! Guy with 20 years experience 6 with that company. 1 weeks vacation plus $14K for medical. Most civilized companies start you out with 2 weeks vacation going to 3 after 5 years and 4 after 10 years.They provide a minimum of medical and dental you would only pay for major medical. Flex time for your type of job plus a whole lot of other things that just thinking about is cramping my fingers. Doesn't your state have anything called labor standards? Were your parents fist cousins? OF COURSE YOUR NUTS AND SO WOULD ANYONE BE WHO TOLERATED THIS BULL*HIT. What's wrong with you? Where did youlose your backbone? Go online post your resume and check out http://www.monster.com and find yourself a new job first and at the first opportunity dump these jerks. You're crazier than a bed bug if you stay there. Report them to the state labor board. You'll probably find their web site @ STATESNAME.gov. Now get out of there before they kill you!!!!!!!!

by cieio

There are not very many companies like mine in our area making the comparison almost impossible but there are a few signs that something wasn't right. Ever heard of the golden handcuffs? Having worked in a very large metro area I was aware of the potential for the vocation. What I wasn't prepared for was the local vacuum of stats with which to do some comparable shopping. My previous company had declared a BK leaving me very little time to reject a helping hand from a previous client. The raise was enormous. I never thought individually paying health insurance would bury the gain and actually step me backwards. We live, we learn, we move on. I have a good network of clients from my previous consulting work and will probably land out on my own. Thanks again for the acid check!

by a.techno.geek

Listen to him, he owns a company. But on the other hand he is also a Canadian, which is not bad in and of itself. Labor laws in Canada are different then in the states and from state to state as well. I concur, start putting out the old resume.

by sleepin'dawg

Both Canadian and American law are based on English Common Law. The major difference between the two is not the law but in the method. Americans tend to try civil matters before a judge and jury, in Canada it is before a judge only. Also in Canada all judges are appointed while in the US judges are appointed on the federal level but on the state, county or municipal level they are often if not usually elected. Which method is better? They both have they're pros and cons. Criminal matters usually get the jury method in either venue.

by jamesrl

In Canada, in a criminal matter, the accused can choose between a jury and the judge - most choose the jury.

Because the systems are similar enough, it is not uncommon to see precedents cited in Canadian courts from Britain or the US, when no applicable Canadian precendent exists.

Quebec is an exception, as provinical law is based on the principles of French civil law, which is a result of the Quebec act of 1760. That same act, which quarenteed the Quebec people freedom of religion, the ability to continue to use their own language, educational system and legal system, is often cited as one of the antagonisms between Britain and America leading up to the revolution - the Americans who fought alongside the British during the war were dumbfounded that the British would give the Quebecois all of these rights to the losing party in the war.

James

by sleepin'dawg

American's have almost the same choices as Canadians do as to selecting the type of trial they wish to be tried under, as long as you are discussing criminal courts. As I said the major differences are in our civil courts. We do not have juries establishing fault and/or penalties in Canadian Courts. In this regard we are closer to the Brits who operate much more in our style except that Canadian lawyers and judges do not wear wigs. A major difference in Canadian criminal matters is we do not have laws regarding double jeopardy so if a prosecuter feels the judge did not give the appropriate sentence he can appeal much in the way a convicted person has a right to appeal. Another thing certain states split the procedure in two, almost creating two separate trials, California, being one of those states. The first trial is a trial to establish guilt or innocence the second trial only takes place after a guilty verdict. The second trial is for the sentence especially life or death. Judges prefer jury trials since in trial by judge alone a guilty verdict doesn't look good on their records if it is later reversed on appeal because of some minor mistake made. Conversely a discharge that is not confirmed by judicial review can be bad publicity at election time. But all in all the differences are minor. There is even a comparison to Quebec in the US. Louisianna civil law is also taken from the Code Napoleon with all the problems that entails. As I said there are more similarities than differences. The diifferences lie more in style than in the law itself.

by tomsal

CIEIO,

Thanks for giving me some input.

Here is how they explained why the deducted me some hours...

(excerpt from the employee manual word-for-word):

"An absence occurs when an employee misses more than three (3) hours of work within a normal workday. An absence of multiple days due to the same illness, injury or other incident will be counted as one occurrence for the purpose of this policy."

by wmdcrowder

That's all well and good that they have that in their handbook...however, if you are salary I don't believe they can enforce that without breaking the law.

Check w/an employment lawyer to be sure, but do you want to risk your job over 2 hours? You may be stepping on toes unless you can convince the HR department you're bringing the subject up 'in the best interests of the company..' You're looking to keep them from possibly getting fined/lawsuits from not following the law.
Good luck

by sf scott

This policy makes no sense. If you read it literally, it sounds like if you are out multiple days for the same illness or injury it will be treated as a single absence. Also, if you are out for more than three hours, you are absent for the day and should not be working the remainder of the day as they are supposed to be showing you as out for the entire day.

This is just begging for legal review. I really hope you take to a good employement lawyer because if this is happening to you, it is happening to others at your company.

by j.g.camp

Bush and Republicans are in power, labor will get screwed over. Outsourcing is a problem that contributes heavily to it. Management uses these tactics and as long as employment/the labor market is weak, expect to be treated as though you can be replaced on a whim. My suggestion, try an inroad to becoming part of the collusion that is the power structure of your company. In that circle, you'll thrive no matter what. Top level power structure isn't going to be/ever get cheap on themselves.

by psyop1

This type of activity has been happening ever since the dawn of the worker-employer relationship. It's called taking advantage of someone, and it has NOTHING to do with who is in office, and to state that it does is just another fine example of cranial diarrhea.

Outsourcing also has nothing to do with it in a small company, such as the one being discussed here. Does your local computer shop outsource their support duties to India? Not likely, and not a contributing factor here or in most other cases like this.

There are federal laws under the fair labor standards act, and many others, that profile what constitutes exempt status and what does not, as well as things such as the family medical leave, but I'm not aware of a federal law that requires payment for hours NOT worked, only for hours actually worked, regardless of the employees classification as an exempt/non-exempt, hourly/salary worker.

An example of this was my last job, which was with a manufacturer who always required either the use of sick/vacation time for periods of 3 or more hours out of the office for salaried employees, and sick/vacation time for hourly employees who took time off over 1 hour. This wasn't a state law, however, but a corporate policy, and it was within the state guidelines for compensation.

State laws due vary, however, as the states have always had the right to augment federal law, even making them more strict.

But this, again, has nothing to do with who is in power in the oval office, as evidenced by the fact that in my last job CLINTON was in office and people were still getting docked pay as salaried and exempt employees....

by andypiesse9

It doesn't matter which country you are in if the employer is that mean minded they will always be mean minded. Find a better job and leave. And make sure you don't take a pencil as they are quite likely to prosecute you for theft.

by gercker

If I read this right, you are the only tech support person for 300 people and a 500 mile radius? Unbelievable. I know times are tough, but with your experience and skill set, there must be other jobs. Of course, it is easy for me to give advice, not being in your position. Check around, see what is available in the area. 2 weeks vacation and health insurance are common. Go back and tell them you want health insurance, 2 weeks off, no more docking for "off time" and instead, pay for any "after hours" work. Tell then to keep the company van (it's probably a write-off for them anyway) and pay you mileage. If it is true you are the only support person, you should have quite a bit of leverage. Easy for me to say, I know, but good luck.

by joe90fluke

You said you pay for the gaz also?
Come on, in all the companies I worked for who supplied the car, the gaz was paid by the company
if we did fill up during the week and by me if I had to fill-up during the week-end during the personnal use period or during vacation.
I am in Canada the laws are different here but beside the car issue I feel your literally abused. It took less than that for me to move out of my last job.
Since you are working it is difficult for you to search for a new job,the idea of using the people you know around you is a geat idea (may be the best), but I found very good jobs in the past using manpower agencies. Give it a try and call them back at least once a week, you will get quick results.
Good Luck !!

by hemantnpatel

So what you are saying that you fillup on Friday and then fill up on Monday, the company should pay?

by behamilton

Dude...It always comes down to the almighty $$$, you know ROI and all that good stuff. If you want to stay with this organization, show them (the powers that be) your value to the company in $$$'s and what it would cost them to replace you with either a new hire, or oursourcing. If you can afford to do it...take a few weeks off (and by off...I do mean time away from the organization not doing any work, at least for them anyway) and let them see just how valuble you are. You "wear a s**t load of hats" for this company and personally, I have to agree with almost every other post here...get the h**l out of there!! Take a look at flipdog.com, I have found a lot of good jobs on there.

by brooks fancher

This is all over. This issue is very illegal and if they do fire you, I would contact the DOL. They have a site called eLaws @ http://www.dol.gov/elaws/ that can help you get advice.

Basically this company has set itself up for a lawsuit if they ever take disciplinary action against you. In fact, since they have been treating you like an hourly employee docking you for work missed, they might be liable for back overtime. There have been cases where an exempt employee was treated like a non-exempt employee and the courts held that since the company was treating them like a non-exempt employee on some issues, that the employee was in fact non-exempt.

I would check out the eLaws website and as has been mentioned, talk with an attorney that deals with labor issues.

by seyes

If I read you right, Your in a great Job and there aren't many like it in your area. And to make it worse you would like to keep from moving if you could. Do I get it right?
I understand completely, I walk in them same shoes.

If you can, my best advice is to flood your area with your resume. Even going so far as looking into local head hunters (job finders that the company who hires you pays) and see just how many unknown Job postings are in your area.

This will do two things for you.
1- It may find the perfect job for you, or
2- It will give you the raw data on jobs, salaries, benifits, and extra compensations that are the norm for your area.

Then hit your boss with facts and take the best option... Dumping him for a better job or getting what your worth from this company.

Good luck,
SeYeS
"There is a way to say Yes to everything... even if it's Not Now"

by cellmis

While I'm lucky that my current employer doesn't take this same view, I've worked for a number of smaller employers that have. I can't count the number of hours of "comp time" I was promised to make up for unpaid overtime that was conveniently forgotten when it actually came around to me taking the time off. Many employers seem to think that it's okay for them to screw their empoyees over - especially when the unemployment rate is high. The days of employment being a 'give and take' relationship seem to be long gone for many companies - now it's 'take all you can - fire 'em if they complain'.

by sf_pat

The grass is always greener in the next pasture. But before you run to it, you need to take stock of your current advantages. You mention you like the work, and they do not seem to manage you very closely except for benefits.

You may not be an employee. If you are self-employed then you must pay both shares of the Social Security Tax (about 16%). You can get information from IRS Taxpayer Service that can help you with this determination (don?t worry they can not report your situation to their enforcement arm). Many companies reclassify their ?employees? as ?self-employed? to save on health benefits and Social Security tax. Seems your company has gone half way. Hone your skills (get some certificates under your belt), get some money saved away, and then carefully check out the employment market in your area (do not list your business phone as they may get wise you are looking). SQL skills are generally in high demand with the right certificates. Be sure to keep track of your overtime and ?lost sick? hours in case you can later receive compensation. Good Luck!

by blarman

...Big Time. First, even if they provide the vehicle, business related expenses for gas have to be reimbursed. I used to work for U-Haul, and when I drove my own vehicle, I got mileage compensation, when driving theirs, I got gas money. I turned in the receipts and they reimbursed me.

Second, as many other posters have pointed out, they can't "dock" your pay if you are salaried employee. If they want to treat you as hourly, they need to go the whole way. They can't pick and choose the stuff that appeals to them.

Third, many employers who use the whole salary survey thing don't compare apples to apples. You are clearly being taken advantage of for health care.

If it were me, I'd look at your costs, and ask them for a raise to take you up to the middle to high-end of value - AFTER health-care. Also present them with the option to insure you. Then point out to them that they can not legally "dock" you unless you are hourly.

If they don't respond well, go elsewhere. Sometimes, even the threat of moving elsewhere is enough to make them sit up and take notice. If you fail to take action, however, they won't feel compelled to change anything.

by aled

The general consensus of opinion seems to be that you are being treated less than fairly. Personally, I think your employer has lost touch with reality, as so often happens with multi-talented 'do-it-all' guys, you get taken for granted.
Maybe this dissatisfaction is a good time for you to review your goals and ambitions. Even time to take the dare and do that thing you've always wanted to do, branch out on your own, maybe?
Life is for living, and it's too short for fretting & worrying. Support your family by all means, but you need to enjoy your family too. But that's just my personal opinion . . . Good luck & God Bless

by sf scott

The definition of salaried from the same link has some interesting specifics that alter what is in the main exemption and would affect his situation. Check out: http://www.dol.gov/esa/regs/compliance/whd/fairpay/fs17g_salary.htm.

Specifically it states: "Effect of Improper Deductions from Salary

The employer will lose the exemption if it has an ?actual practice? of making improper deductions from salary." And they state that absences are "full day" to be counted.

by gometrics

I hope you are making at least 90k for all that you are doing. It's weird how they are treating you like an independant contractor in some respects (no benefits) yet an employee in others (salary). It's all mixed up to their advantage and I tend to agree with the folks questioning legality.

In the meantime, I have a tip on your health insurance. Get an HSA high deductible plan with an A rated carrier. You'll save a bunch but have good coverage for the big stuff which is the true purpose of insurance...as opposed to expensive copay plans. Just put some of the saved premium into your HSA which can be used for the smaller dollar healthcare costs.

by zlitocook

With the upswing of IT jobs at least in my area (St Louis) if I were you and with all the things you can do. I would be posting on all the job boards. I have a contract job that will be full time in two months but I have received six job offers in the past month. Contact the federal wage and labor people and ask them about your job and ask them what they think. You can put job offers in your bosses inbox. And it depends were you look up salary surveys and what states they are in.

Get a new job with a company that pays and gives better benifits.

by cgp77

CIEIO:

I was in the construction business for many years. I loved building, managing, client interaction, working with personnell, troubleshooting, solving problems, the money, but I couldn't stand my partner. I quit, I moved on. I didn't love the relationship. Doesn't sound like you do either. If you can't resolve issues with this guy, consider moving on. It will affect you and your family. Maybe it's time to check that out?

by d.jarrell

To begin with, are you considered a full time employee? I may be wrong, but I thought that full time employees must have benefits unless they waive them.

As for the van - what is their reasoning for you paying the gas? If they pay for the vehicle, they should be paying for the gas. If they don't pay for gas or mileage, then make sure you keep the receipts to deduct as unreimbursed employee business expense on your taxes.

As for the hours - if you are considered salary, then they can take the time out of your sick time unless you have "personal" time in your contract. If they say you are hourly, then they should be paying you for your overtime.

What I would do is document ALL the time you spend at work. Once you have that in black and white, go talk to the CFO and ask him what he thinks you should do. :) Get paid for overtime or not get docked for comp time. Incidently, I believe that you must be compensated for ANY time worked - hourly workers get overtime, and salaried get compensation time.

Either way, they are not treating you fairly. I would be touching up my resume if I were you. Someone with your experience should be in a position that pays health insurance as well as having more vacation. I don't know what your salary is, but I bet it's not that much for an IT professional with your experience.

Granted the IT field is down right now... but that does NOT give them a license to abuse you. It seems like they don't think you are a valuable resource.

If I were you, I'd have already had my resume out looking for someone that valued me. You should be getting paid in the vicinity of my brother-in-law who makes in six figures with great benefits. He's in the DC area.

by from oz

After a while some companies take you for granted after you
have been with them for years. They seem to think you will not
move from your confort zone.
It is really up to you - from my experience I believe they will not
change the way they have been treating you, which is quite
unfair from my perspective as an IT Manager. And I speak by my
own experience after leaving an IT Manager job I had been in the
last 7 1/2 years.
I would not engage in a contention with them if you do not have
where else to go for a job in the first place.
I believe it is time for you to move to another job, where your
experience and background would give you a chance to find a
place with a better career perspective (and respect).
Good luck.

by dumbuser

Surprised they let you out of the straight jacket to type in to TechRepublic! One of 3 possibilities: 1)Yep, you're nuts, 2)They're paying you fabulously enough to keep you coming back, 3)you enjoy pain....

Sounds like you have plenty of experience---get out! Of course, if you've been in IT for 20 years, that puts you in the 40ish crowd (I'm with you there), and you salary may be high enough to scare some potential companies. You have to weight advantages and disadvantages, but I don't get the not health benefits thing for a company of that size. Your next job might be lower pay but with health benefits, or you could keep this job with higher pay and no benefits. The nice thing about company benefits is that they usually take pre-existing conditions, so you don't have to go through the hassles of qualifying like you do for private health insurance.

Wish you the best! I'd be looking for an out.

by kevj

Your local department of labor may be able to help with information. Filing a complaint is the only recourse you have. Unfortunately, complaint resolution may take up to six months. I sounds like you are better off taking the advice of others in this forum and find a new job.

by kevj

Technically there are not docking you if they charge sick leave especially since they give you the sick leave as a benefit.

by sf scott

If you are an hourly employee then docking sick leave by the hour would likely be OK. If you are salaried and the sick leave is on a per day basis, then probably not. In any case it seems that they are taking advantage of you and probably breaking the law.

by geekz

It doesn't sound like they have a clue how much you handle.

I think this problem sometimes happens because non-technical people are trying to manage techies. There was an article or two posted on this website about it(?) I've run into it several times in the last 25+ years, it can be a nightmare.

A project database to document some of the requests you receive on a daily basis might be an eye-opener for them.

Definately dust off your resume and check out the market, can't hurt! Don't forget to apply in the big companies like Fidelity where they may offer tuition reimbursement.

Track your time as closely as they track it and go enjoy your kid(s)!! Good luck!

JG

by billex

you said that ". . .the support [duties that they want you to perform] drags me away from what I can do to best benefit the company."-- duties that you would prefer to perform. Most workers think that they know best as to what they could do to benefit the company. Some shut up about it, hold their feelings in. Others are more aggressive and let their feelings out. Regardless, studies show that you are more likely to get your goals in any organization if you are able to get along well with co-workers, project managers and subordinates in that order.

Based on the way that you come across in your expression of your dilema, my guess is that you would be better off developing your own mission statement and starting your own company, like I did. The true test of how much you believe in yourself (we all claim to believe in ourselves) is your willingness to go out and market your talents to the highest bidder. Whinning about not getting your way in someone else's playground is childish.

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